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| 08:50.11 | Jamash | FOUR POINT EX POINT COST RAMPAGE |
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| 20:03.03 | sannse | heyhey |
| 20:06.08 | sannse | fyi: http://wowwiki.christian.wikia-dev.com/wiki/Scourge < test wiki for the wider version of the new look |
| 20:21.17 | Elunatic | *tumbleweed* |
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| 20:22.52 | Elunatic | Is it missing ads now, or are those white spaces supposed to be there? |
| 20:23.32 | pcj_2 | none of the tooltips work :( |
| 20:23.44 | sannse | it's a test server, so may be a few bits odd there. for ads, it will be the same as now - logged in users only see ads on the main page, others see them as usual |
| 20:26.43 | Elunatic | k |
| 20:27.33 | Elunatic | Just a quick question though. Seeing as people are moving on. Was it any chance that Wikia would actually listen to the community on what happened, or was it all out of "your hands" so to speak. |
| 20:27.54 | Elunatic | Curious as to what Wikia sees as "theirs" in the context of each individual Wiki. |
| 20:30.48 | sannse | Elunatic: I'm not sure I understand the question, we have listened, and this change is something that was asked for. We can't give everything that's asked for, but we have made this and other changes already... and will keep modifying the skin as we get feedback and data from its use |
| 20:31.48 | Elunatic | That's where I don't get what you are saying. "asked for", by who? The editors, admins, or visitors? Are they people who frequent WoWWiki, or the Glee Wiki etc? |
| 20:32.15 | Elunatic | Because if what you say is true, the staff wouldn't be moving in the first place. At least that's the conclusion I would come to. |
| 20:34.50 | sannse | more space for articles is something that's been mentioned several times on the forum pages about this |
| 20:36.02 | sannse | wait, I see the confusion... I mean "this change to the width was something that was asked for" |
| 20:36.31 | Elunatic | Haha, good. Got worried there for a minute. |
| 20:36.43 | Elunatic | But people have also asked for the old skins. |
| 20:38.03 | sannse | yes, as I said, we can't give everything that's asked for... to maintain monaco would take significant engineering time and resources, it's much better for us to put those resources in to a single skin (while maintaining monobook as a personal option) |
| 20:39.08 | Elunatic | What maintenance? Doesn't monaco work already? |
| 20:39.34 | pcj_2 | they mean for future features |
| 20:39.41 | g0urra | sannse, I'm sorry to say but there's no future for you as a comedian, because that joke about increased width was terrible |
| 20:39.44 | Elunatic | Oh yeah, like what? More ads? |
| 20:40.06 | sannse | yes, but it won't as soon as we switch to the next version of the basic software (mediawiki 1.16) and other features, as pcj says |
| 20:40.45 | sannse | g0urra: it's a significant increase |
| 20:41.23 | Elunatic | Horrible, horrible communication then. |
| 20:41.40 | kd3|netbook | why is this happening *now*, however, and not a month and a half ago? |
| 20:42.18 | crucially | kd3|netbook: because it takes time to gather data on user behaviour |
| 20:42.29 | crucially | or at least one of the reasons |
| 20:42.32 | g0urra | kd3|netbook: because they haven't freaked out until now |
| 20:42.34 | sannse | kd3: you mean the size increase? because it's after feedback, and research on ... what crucially said |
| 20:42.43 | pcj_2 | o.O |
| 20:42.46 | pcj_2 | k |
| 20:42.57 | pcj_2 | i could've told you gamers had bigger screens than most |
| 20:43.02 | kd3|netbook | ^ |
| 20:43.10 | crucially | pcj_2: it is different for different games |
| 20:43.18 | Elunatic | Well, first rule of community management is not sitting idly by and see a PR disaster happen. |
| 20:43.20 | pcj_2 | i could've told you wow gamers had bigger screens |
| 20:43.30 | crucially | pcj_2: yep |
| 20:43.44 | Elunatic | You could also have made an exception for WoWWiki, considering the size of the thing. |
| 20:43.54 | sannse | Elunatic: we aren't sitting idly by, we have been talking on wowwiki, community central, and elsewhere |
| 20:44.02 | pcj_2 | that still leaves them with maintaining monaco eluna :P |
| 20:44.17 | Elunatic | pcj: I meant exception till they sorted it out. |
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| 20:44.32 | sannse | looks forward to being idle sometime near Christmas :P |
| 20:44.36 | Elunatic | "Look guys, we will look into it, we will work hard on it and we want all your feedback. Nothing is set in stone blablabla" |
| 20:44.45 | sannse | all true |
| 20:44.50 | g0urra | idle = employed |
| 20:45.08 | Elunatic | Panic = Crazy time. |
| 20:45.25 | crucially | Elunatic: we haven't released it site wide yet |
| 20:45.39 | kd3|netbook | less than 48 hours and counting |
| 20:46.00 | sannse | that's when it will start, it won't be all at once |
| 20:46.24 | Elunatic | Could you publish your "research" on what you've gathered from your "users"? |
| 20:46.26 | sannse | I'll be putting up a blog post tomorrow, all being well |
| 20:47.05 | sannse | Elunatic: quite probably, we've certainly mentioned a lot of it in the blogs and so on already |
| 20:47.48 | sannse | in particular some of the focus group and user testing we did in the office, on both monaco and the new look (a primary drive was making wikis understandable to new users) |
| 20:48.51 | Elunatic | What is there to understand? Go to a wiki, read info. For editors it's another story. I'm biased though. |
| 20:49.42 | sannse | well the hope is that the readers become editors - and for that they need to not think the wiki was written by "NBC" (for the muppet wiki)... they need to know they are allowed to edit too |
| 20:49.59 | sannse | (was it NBC? the media company anyway) |
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| 20:50.23 | Ward | the muppets were on cable I think |
| 20:50.46 | g0urra | "Muppet Wiki, the wiki about muppets that anyone can edit!" |
| 20:50.51 | g0urra | doesn't take much more than that |
| 20:51.15 | g0urra | "Welcome to WoWWiki |
| 20:51.16 | g0urra | the free Warcraft universe info source anyone can edit |
| 20:51.16 | g0urra | " |
| 20:51.25 | sannse | g0urra: I would have guessed so, but then I'm an old wiki user - turns out that in practice, with real people, it takes more than that |
| 20:51.36 | Ward | g0urra, that's a tautology |
| 20:51.39 | g0urra | and you honestly tried that approach? |
| 20:51.46 | g0urra | googles tautology |
| 20:52.02 | Ward | it's saying the same thing with different words in the same sentence |
| 20:52.03 | sannse | it's tried on every wiki. we sat people in front of computers, with real wikis on them, and asked a range of questions |
| 20:52.07 | Ward | wiki implies everyone can edit it |
| 20:52.16 | sannse | I've watched some of the video of the testing |
| 20:52.19 | Ward | and muppet implies it's about muppet :p |
| 20:52.24 | g0urra | WOAH |
| 20:52.28 | g0urra | really Ward |
| 20:52.29 | kd3|netbook | not if you don't know what the word means, even with wikipedia... |
| 20:52.31 | g0urra | huge surprise |
| 20:52.42 | pcj_2 | if you don't know what the word means should you really be editing |
| 20:52.48 | Ward | indeed |
| 20:52.54 | kd3|netbook | no, probably not. but that's not what wikia's going for |
| 20:53.11 | sannse | of course you should, because in that process you learn |
| 20:53.28 | Elunatic | I started editing wikipedia by making pages for things I couldn't find. Or change spelling errors etc. |
| 20:53.32 | sannse | my first edit in 2002 was simple, much more so than editing a wiki now, with complex templates an all |
| 20:53.34 | Elunatic | And went from there. |
| 20:53.51 | Elunatic | sannse: You have to remember that a wiki isn't like a blog. |
| 20:53.58 | kd3|netbook | as was my first edit, and presumably everyone's |
| 20:54.33 | sannse | Elunatic: I don't think makeing it understandable is the same as being like a blog |
| 20:55.04 | sannse | kd3: was it? or did you see a page of code that would have terrified anyone that's not got your knowhow? :) |
| 20:55.14 | g0urra | heh, my first edit was on my server's wowwiki page, adding guilds to the list |
| 20:55.22 | Elunatic | Dumbing it down is one thing, but pissing off the people who've spent hours upon hours making Wikia what it is, is not the way to go if you ask me. |
| 20:55.49 | Elunatic | It's not only about getting people to add to it, but to add something worthwhile. |
| 20:55.54 | sannse | not what we are trying to do, obviously, but any be change is going to annoy some -- or even many |
| 20:55.57 | kd3|netbook | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Server:Medivh_US&diff=prev&oldid=186343 |
| 20:56.01 | kd3|netbook | my first edit ^ |
| 20:56.02 | sannse | we are trying to get people to start |
| 20:56.19 | g0urra | Elunatic: but top 10 lists about twilight is so important!!111one |
| 20:56.36 | g0urra | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Server:Aggramar_Europe&action=history |
| 20:56.37 | sannse | http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Avoiding_common_mistakes&diff=prev&oldid=554841 < mine |
| 20:56.39 | g0urra | ^ first edit |
| 20:56.44 | g0urra | er |
| 20:56.44 | g0urra | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Server:Aggramar_Europe&diff=prev&oldid=233540 |
| 20:57.02 | Elunatic | Haha, my first Wikiedit ever http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iceman_(comics)&diff=prev&oldid=15060992 |
| 20:57.49 | sannse | kd3: that edit would have terrified me - all that scary code |
| 20:58.10 | sannse | it's fine now I've grown up with it, it's fine of course, but not the me of 2002 |
| 20:58.12 | Elunatic | sannse: It's no more worse that looking at what others have done and learn by example. |
| 20:58.28 | kd3|netbook | ^ |
| 20:58.41 | Elunatic | That's the way I've learned. |
| 20:58.58 | Elunatic | Check my userpage http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Elüna |
| 20:58.58 | sannse | for you, maybe even for me, not for my mother (who has some great stuff she could add about many topics - but is not techy) |
| 20:59.01 | Elunatic | Look at the source |
| 20:59.22 | Elunatic | You can't expect someone who is new to something to make that. |
| 20:59.25 | Elunatic | You have to learn. |
| 20:59.28 | Elunatic | Which is what you do when you edit. |
| 20:59.32 | Elunatic | You start out small, and you go from there. |
| 20:59.38 | sannse | exactly, and if someone starts by seeing that, they run and don't learn |
| 20:59.39 | Elunatic | You then find out if this is something you want to do. |
| 20:59.41 | g0urra | sannse: could you make something that makes people able to edit by just mere thought? because my paralyzed grand mother would like to have a talk with you |
| 20:59.43 | Elunatic | If you don't, then you don't. |
| 20:59.54 | pcj_2 | http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=World_of_Warcraft:_The_Burning_Crusade&diff=prev&oldid=191562 |
| 21:00.16 | sannse | so start by showing them that they /can/ eidt, then help show them how to do a simple edit, and so on |
| 21:00.44 | sannse | g0urra: when I do, I'll make sure it's added to wikkia ;) |
| 21:00.54 | sannse | has to concentrate on a meeting, bbl |
| 21:00.58 | Elunatic | Then you should add bigger "edit" buttons, and maybe plaster it all over.. The thing about a Wiki (at least how I felt it) was the discovery that, shit, I can edit it! |
| 21:01.10 | kd3|netbook | like the big yellow edit buttons on monaco? |
| 21:01.14 | kd3|netbook | >.> |
| 21:01.17 | Elunatic | :P |
| 21:01.20 | g0urra | Elunatic: also a big popup that says "HEY DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN EDIT THIS PAGE" |
| 21:01.33 | Elunatic | It should be like the old popup ads! |
| 21:01.39 | kd3|netbook | shudders |
| 21:01.46 | pcj_2 | <blink> imo |
| 21:02.02 | g0urra | what |
| 21:02.02 | Elunatic | With a video that goes all "HEY DUDE! YEAH YOU, no, not you, YOU OVER THERE! YEAH YOU! Please edit this wiki! |
| 21:02.18 | pcj_2 | hey i know you guys should make it where they can just double click anywhere on the page to edit it |
| 21:02.37 | crucially | pcj_2: that is a fantastic idea :) |
| 21:02.38 | Elunatic | Why even format anymore? |
| 21:02.46 | Elunatic | Why not just have it in plaintext. |
| 21:02.53 | g0urra | crucially: nice job disabling it with the new skin |
| 21:02.56 | g0urra | claps half-heartedly, clearly unimpressed |
| 21:02.57 | kd3|netbook | I thought double-click-to-edit got pulled from the new skin? |
| 21:02.57 | sannse | Elunatic: http://www.wikia.com/Special:LandingPage < video |
| 21:03.05 | crucially | g0urra: ? |
| 21:03.17 | crucially | i mean in-place |
| 21:03.18 | g0urra | crucially: I got told that double-click to edit doesn't work in the new skin |
| 21:03.29 | g0urra | because they disabled it |
| 21:03.37 | g0urra | I asked, got told "tough luck, adapt" |
| 21:03.50 | crucially | it doesn't work in wowwiki? |
| 21:04.11 | g0urra | nowhere |
| 21:04.42 | crucially | i mean in monaco |
| 21:05.00 | g0urra | of course. |
| 21:05.08 | kd3|netbook | it works in monaco iirc; just not in the new look |
| 21:05.09 | g0urra | it doesn't work with the new skin. |
| 21:05.12 | kd3|netbook | flips a few pref switches |
| 21:05.18 | g0urra | <g0urra> crucially: I got told that double-click to edit doesn't work in the new skin |
| 21:05.19 | g0urra | ¯\(º_o)/¯ |
| 21:05.28 | crucially | btw, i meant in-place editing |
| 21:05.32 | g0urra | next up: reading classes! |
| 21:05.38 | crucially | g0urra: it doesn't work in monaco for me |
| 21:05.39 | pcj_2 | classes or glasses |
| 21:05.48 | pcj_2 | crucially: it's a preference |
| 21:05.50 | Elunatic | HAHA, I was just about to say that pcj |
| 21:05.51 | Elunatic | XD |
| 21:06.03 | pcj_2 | ROFL :D |
| 21:06.04 | Elunatic | crucially: it's been a part of mediawiki for years. |
| 21:06.07 | g0urra | crucially: you mean "Enable section editing by right clicking on section titles (JavaScript)"? |
| 21:06.13 | sannse | last I heard, it was in the bugs list - it should work as a preference |
| 21:06.20 | g0urra | which is in the preferences? |
| 21:06.23 | g0urra | OH SO NOW ITS A BUG |
| 21:06.25 | g0urra | NOT A FEATURE |
| 21:06.26 | g0urra | glad to hear. |
| 21:07.18 | kd3|netbook | ya, double-click-to-edit works in monaco (with the pref on) |
| 21:07.36 | g0urra | kd3|netbook: welcome to 2 minutes ago |
| 21:07.38 | sannse | will check on the status of that in the new look |
| 21:07.44 | crucially | i am pretty sure it should work in oasis |
| 21:08.04 | *** join/#wowwiki kappaluppa1 (~kappalupp@63.224.64.171) |
| 21:08.14 | g0urra | it doesn't |
| 21:08.43 | g0urra | oh maybe you just added a 0 so you have to click 20 times |
| 21:08.45 | g0urra | checks |
| 21:08.52 | crucially | g0urra: it will be fixed |
| 21:09.05 | g0urra | after I brought it up 2 weeks ago? |
| 21:09.18 | crucially | i can look at the ticket if you really care |
| 21:09.44 | g0urra | ok it's 11 days ag |
| 21:09.45 | g0urra | ago* |
| 21:09.47 | kd3|netbook | still doesn't get why the trac ticket instance isn't public |
| 21:09.54 | kd3|netbook | but that's neither here nor there |
| 21:09.58 | kd3|netbook | looks for more food |
| 21:10.08 | g0urra | "Well, I'm sorry for sending you on a wild goose chase as I just found out myself we are no longer supporting double-click-to-edit in Oasis at all. It will still be supported in Monobook, just not Oasis. I certainly hope that will change myself as double-click is something I use constantly, but that is the way it is at this time." |
| 21:10.19 | g0urra | from Wikia Community Support on october 7 |
| 21:10.28 | crucially | kd3|netbook: because there might be PII in there, is my understanding |
| 21:10.36 | Elunatic | I wonder what Wikia will do with all this white space http://x0.no/1ic7 |
| 21:10.41 | Elunatic | Perhaps a huge ad? |
| 21:10.42 | kd3|netbook | flip the security flag? |
| 21:11.05 | crucially | kd3|netbook: ? |
| 21:11.06 | kd3|netbook | unless trac doesn't do that the way bz does |
| 21:11.22 | kd3|netbook | can make individual tickets 'private' so to not show up publicly |
| 21:11.43 | crucially | kd3|netbook: we don't use trac, we use request tracker |
| 21:11.45 | g0urra | crucially: see the text above and give the guy who replied a swift kick in the ass |
| 21:11.53 | kd3|netbook | ah |
| 21:11.54 | sannse | g0urra: I've just checked, it's definitely changed since then, it will be back |
| 21:12.14 | g0urra | too bad I won't care about oasis by that time :) |
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| 21:16.53 | Elunatic | Communication = Difficult. |
| 21:18.20 | crucially | I am curious, how many datacenters does curse have? |
| 21:18.29 | g0urra | enough |
| 21:18.39 | Xtek | 1. |
| 21:18.49 | Xtek | And we don't have "Data centers' but we host our servers in 1. |
| 21:19.08 | crucially | enjoy the speed of light |
| 21:19.24 | Xtek | We just finished migration from our New Jersey data center to the new one in Atlanta with brand new, very beefy servers. |
| 21:19.26 | Elunatic | Speed of light? |
| 21:19.30 | Xtek | http://media.curse.com/CommunityServer.Components.SiteFiles/127284/News/CurseAtlantaDataCenter.png |
| 21:19.45 | kd3|netbook | it'll take a short bit of time to reach our editors in eu/au |
| 21:19.53 | kd3|netbook | but not like that's something wow players haven't had to deal with forever |
| 21:19.59 | Elunatic | Oh snap |
| 21:20.02 | crucially | Elunatic: as in it will be slower for people further away |
| 21:20.46 | pcj_2 | kd3: its not like wikia has servers in AU anyway |
| 21:20.48 | Xtek | Yeah we don't currently have a CDN hsoted however we are litterally a short distance from 1 hop to the New York hub. |
| 21:20.59 | crucially | New York hub? |
| 21:21.18 | Xtek | The hub that handles EU traffic is in New York. |
| 21:21.24 | Xtek | To/From the US |
| 21:21.31 | Elunatic | The fiber over the atlantic |
| 21:21.33 | crucially | what traffic? |
| 21:21.36 | crucially | eh? |
| 21:21.41 | Xtek | lol |
| 21:21.43 | pcj_2 | information superhighway traffic |
| 21:21.43 | crucially | where did you get the information from |
| 21:21.46 | pcj_2 | gary |
| 21:21.48 | stew-a | actually its under :P |
| 21:21.56 | kd3|netbook | over the atlantic? |
| 21:22.00 | kd3|netbook | imagines a launch loop |
| 21:22.01 | Elunatic | stew-a: Semantics :P |
| 21:22.08 | crucially | isn't "in the atlantic" |
| 21:22.26 | crucially | and it doesn't help, it is still a huge latency hit |
| 21:22.55 | Xtek | Even a traceroute from Germany was only 18 hops. |
| 21:23.01 | Xtek | To our ATL data center, that's pretty low |
| 21:23.07 | Elunatic | Huge is a bit of a stretch. |
| 21:23.08 | crucially | xtek: only 18 hops? |
| 21:23.12 | Xtek | yeah |
| 21:23.16 | crucially | "only" |
| 21:23.17 | pcj_2 | world wide web is world wide? |
| 21:23.26 | Xtek | lol |
| 21:23.35 | Elunatic | crucially, digging for something to bitch about. |
| 21:23.41 | Xtek | Appears that way. |
| 21:23.50 | crucially | I am 11 from dec-ix from the west coast |
| 21:24.14 | crucially | scratch that 7 |
| 21:24.35 | Elunatic | crucially: Since you are closer, could you host us from home please! |
| 21:24.41 | Elunatic | Pleeeeease |
| 21:24.43 | sannse | heh |
| 21:24.47 | *** join/#wowwiki MPfreeUK (~mpfreeuk@94.30.40.170) |
| 21:25.06 | sannse | he hosts you from all the wonderful server places he has |
| 21:25.10 | pcj_2 | look at wikia's skin now back to ours, back at wikia's skin, now back to ours. sadly wikia's skin isn't ours, but if they stopped worrying about transatlantic traffic and concentrated on maintaining quality skins, they could be like ours |
| 21:25.18 | kd3|netbook | smirks |
| 21:25.22 | Xtek | 11 hops from England |
| 21:25.23 | Xtek | QQ moar |
| 21:25.38 | pcj_2 | wowwiki is now diamonds |
| 21:25.39 | Xtek | that's damn good considering it takes me more hops to get to my wow server in my own damn country |
| 21:25.53 | stew-a | i'm in the UK and i get less latency to curse.com than eu wow servers |
| 21:26.02 | Xtek | :) |
| 21:26.14 | crucially | 5 to london for me |
| 21:26.16 | Xtek | We're using XO and Qwest (great for international people) Tier 1 bandwidth. |
| 21:26.39 | crucially | but hops add very little latency to distance |
| 21:26.45 | Xtek | lol |
| 21:26.50 | crucially | xo is not a tier 1 network by any stretch |
| 21:27.00 | Xtek | ok |
| 21:27.06 | crucially | qwest is |
| 21:27.08 | Elunatic | Seriously, what lame ass geek pissing contest is this? |
| 21:27.15 | pcj_2 | NO YOU GUYS OUR PING IS LOWER |
| 21:27.19 | kd3|netbook | snagged some popcorn from downstairs to watch |
| 21:27.34 | Xtek | lol Elunatic, I give up |
| 21:27.43 | Xtek | People need something to bitch about I guess. :) |
| 21:27.51 | kd3|netbook | aw, don't give up. I need a reason to eat this popcorn |
| 21:28.30 | crucially | is proud of wikias cdn |
| 21:29.49 | Elunatic | And I'm guessing Xtek is proud of Curse's |
| 21:30.12 | crucially | Elunatic: they don't have one :p |
| 21:34.15 | Elunatic | Shit, what the hell are we gonna do people..? |
| 21:36.17 | g0urra | panic |
| 21:36.29 | pcj_2 | gives g0urra a towel |
| 21:36.49 | g0urra | whips with it |
| 21:51.49 | Elunatic | Oh, I go away for 20 minutes and everything just stops. |
| 21:51.52 | Elunatic | More fighting! |
| 21:54.52 | g0urra | I have a whipping towel now though |
| 21:54.56 | g0urra | and I'm not afraid to use it |
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