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| 22:19.13 | TennysonXII | Would this be a decent place for a noob to ask questions? |
| 22:19.44 | Nechckn | Depends what they are and if anyone knows... go for it. |
| 22:20.58 | TennysonXII | Well, for one, how do I make sure that I'm not surrounded by immaturity. Is it true that the Horde is generally more mature? |
| 22:21.59 | Nechckn | At one time, it was a bit more "mature" but that has really evened out. Most folks find others who meet with their expectations pretty quickly, no matter which server/faction. |
| 22:22.31 | Nechckn | WoW makes it quite easy to block those you find offensive, too. |
| 22:22.58 | Nechckn | But, it is like any large community, you are bound to find all sorts, no matter your selection. |
| 22:23.37 | TennysonXII | Ah, cool. Also, if I'm brand new to the game and have a pretty low tolerance for frustration, would PvP be a bad idea? |
| 22:23.58 | Arrowmaster | yes |
| 22:24.10 | Nechckn | Haha... yeah, have to go with Arrowmaster on that one. |
| 22:24.57 | Arrowmaster | so would pugging, or pretty much any interaction with the general population |
| 22:25.21 | TennysonXII | pugging? |
| 22:25.27 | TennysonXII | what's pugging? |
| 22:25.31 | Nechckn | lol, that too - but, really have had decent luck, over all, on a handful of servers. |
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| 22:25.52 | Nechckn | "pick up group" meaning going to an instance/questing with those not in your clan |
| 22:27.21 | Nechckn | Once you get to the first city, simply put out the word that you are looking for a mature guild for leveling, you should get a bunch of invites. Then it is up to you to talk with those there and see if they actually are what you expect. |
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| 22:27.22 | TennysonXII | Ah. One last one, I think: Do rogues require a lot of micromanaging? I love stealth, but I hate details. |
| 22:27.24 | winkiller | LFG is a cool pickup line in wow |
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| 22:27.52 | Amarande | XKCD today is pure win |
| 22:28.24 | Amarande | winkiller: someone was founding a guild named LFG, I told them they should make sure to accept an undead warlock named Richard :) |
| 22:28.57 | Nechckn | Well, all the classes take a bit of watching, but they are generally pretty easy, TennysonXII |
| 22:29.36 | TennysonXII | Ok, thanks for the advice, guys. |
| 22:30.02 | Nechckn | There are a huge number of sites to point out which gear/talents/et cetera to pick up and the use of skills. You can just about macro any set of abilities, so it is not that hard. |
| 22:30.14 | TennysonXII | Cool. |
| 22:31.06 | TennysonXII | Anywho, maybe I'll be seeing some of you soon! Thanks again. |
| 22:32.05 | Nechckn | I didn't have the heart to tell them to find a single player, offline game, Arrowmaster ;-) |
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| 22:46.54 | Amarande | gah, why is turner classic movies running why we fight all day |
| 22:47.17 | Amarande | oh. today's the anniversary of the day that the Japanese kicked our ass at Pearl Harbor isn't it ... |
| 22:49.20 | Nechckn | 68 years, iirc |
| 22:51.01 | Amarande | you know what I always wonder about? |
| 22:51.22 | Amarande | why is it that the days that we WIN in wars hardly get anything but a passing mention in the "Today in history" box in the newspapers |
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| 22:51.31 | Amarande | but the days we get our ASS KICKED are the ones we take time to remember? :| |
| 22:51.45 | Amarande | why are we negative like that? :| |
| 22:51.47 | Ward | because victory is usually never one clear date |
| 22:51.47 | Nechckn | Well.. I think it's more the shock value |
| 22:51.50 | Ward | wars start overnight |
| 22:51.55 | Ward | but they never end overnight |
| 22:52.11 | Nechckn | Just like how you may recall someone's birthday, but not the day they died or vice versa |
| 22:52.15 | Ward | so they always pick an arbitrary date, like a treaty signing or a certain capitulation |
| 22:52.18 | Ward | as the endpoint for a war |
| 22:52.24 | Amarande | We don't really take time to remember the day the treaty of Versailles was signed or the day Japan tendered its surrender or the day we kicked the Taliban's ass in Afghanistan |
| 22:52.27 | Nechckn | That is a good point, Ward |
| 22:52.38 | Amarande | But we remember Pearl Harbor and Nine Eleven. |
| 22:52.43 | Fisker | mxs_ |
| 22:52.48 | Nechckn | Likely something that some psychologist could expand upon, too.. |
| 22:52.48 | Fisker | fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind paaaaaaaaaaaaatch |
| 22:52.54 | Ward | Nine Eleven was basically a 4 hour event |
| 22:53.00 | Ward | so was Pearl Harbor |
| 22:53.07 | Ward | there's a clear date for it |
| 22:53.31 | Nechckn | True, true.. but the treaty signature dates of VE/VJ type dates are pretty clear, too. |
| 22:53.45 | Ward | yeah but the treaty date, isn't really the end of the war |
| 22:53.52 | Ward | the war was over before that date |
| 22:54.06 | Nechckn | Sure, and it even continued in a few remote places |
| 22:54.12 | Ward | indeed |
| 22:54.25 | Ward | so 3.3, coming this week? |
| 22:54.26 | Ward | or no? |
| 22:54.45 | Nechckn | Fisker thinks it is... =) |
| 22:55.08 | Nechckn | Personal bet is it could go either this or next week. |
| 22:55.39 | Ward | my guild is sure it's this week |
| 22:55.53 | Ward | so they're all spending their ToC and Ulduar DKP like mad |
| 22:55.59 | Ward | because we're resetting for ICC |
| 22:56.04 | Nechckn | If any of them work at Blizz, I'd go with their thought. If not... well, you know. |
| 22:56.29 | Ward | I'm gonna hang on to the DKP, not worth blowing all of it for 1 232-245 upgrade |
| 22:56.40 | Ward | if it's this week I'm fucked, if it's next week I'm golden |
| 22:56.58 | Nechckn | hehehe, yeah |
| 22:57.32 | Nechckn | I actually lost all of my points on 2.0 from honor, that made the point of watching such things like a hawk *very* clear. |
| 22:58.06 | Amarande | Ward: haha, your guild uses dkp |
| 22:58.25 | Amarande | the ideal guild should not use dkp. |
| 22:58.44 | Nechckn | Well, it is better than the officers flipping a coin and using the item =) |
| 22:58.53 | Amarande | this is because the ideal guild should not have *need* for DKP. the ideal guild should have sufficient rapport between its members as to come to a reasonable assignment of each loot item without drama. |
| 22:59.15 | Amarande | if your guild members are friends, rather than merely treating raiding as a job, then you should be able to do this. :) |
| 22:59.23 | Ward | we use dkp on 25 mans |
| 22:59.27 | Nechckn | That is a tough one, though, Amarande. Especially once all of the "mains" are geared. |
| 22:59.40 | Ward | 10 mans we just rock and roll with the loot |
| 22:59.44 | Amarande | Nechckn: once everyone's properly geared, the disposition of other loot should be a No Big Deal thing then |
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| 23:00.03 | Amarande | after all, if people do not really absolutely gottahave NEED it, they shouldn't be willing to cause drama over it going to someone else. |
| 23:00.09 | Ward | DKP saves a lot of hassle in a guild with 50 active raiders |
| 23:00.10 | Nechckn | As long as everyone feels that way, sure. But you usually have a few that do not. |
| 23:00.17 | Ward | we run 2 TOC 25, 2 Ulduar 25 each week |
| 23:00.25 | Amarande | Nechckn: this is what the /gkick command was invented for. |
| 23:00.33 | Ward | the TOGC loot isn't dkp, in 10 or 25 |
| 23:00.34 | Nechckn | Over a certain size, yeah, you need some system, even if it is not so rigid. |
| 23:00.36 | Amarande | a good way to handle this is simple. |
| 23:00.44 | Amarande | if someone causes drama once over loot, they get a warning. |
| 23:01.05 | Ward | DKP avoids drama, we have a clear system, you show up, you get dkp, you can spend it |
| 23:01.11 | Ward | if someone outbids you, deal with it |
| 23:01.12 | Amarande | if they continue to cause drama, they get gkicked, or demoted to a rank with some suitably demeaning name like "Cracked Buckler" or "Twilight Fan" |
| 23:01.33 | Amarande | actually, DKP can cause drama, particularly as new people enter a guild |
| 23:01.41 | Amarande | since they start with no DKP, and therefore cannot hope to win a bid on -anything- |
| 23:01.48 | Amarande | including, perhaps, gear they may actually *need* |
| 23:01.49 | Ward | well we got a big enough core to be tough on trials |
| 23:02.00 | Amarande | that's one thing that always bugged me about DKP |
| 23:02.04 | Ward | actually, anyone can bid 1 DKP in our system |
| 23:02.07 | Ward | even if they have zero |
| 23:02.08 | Nechckn | Sure they can, if the guild needs them for a slot and needs someone with good gear. |
| 23:02.14 | Ward | so if there's no competition for an item |
| 23:02.19 | Ward | they get it |
| 23:02.21 | Amarande | it kinda implies that, in order to stick sufficiently with the system to avoid the lawyery types in the guild causing drama |
| 23:02.41 | Amarande | you have to tell newer members that that sweet upgrade for them will be sharded instead because someone bid more DKP to have it DE'd than they were able to muster |
| 23:02.43 | Ward | if a veteran can upgrade 232 to 245, while the newbie is still using ilevel 200, it goes to the veteran |
| 23:02.53 | Amarande | Ward: now, that seems silly. |
| 23:03.09 | Nechckn | Amarande but you are forgetting about gearing the mains, then going to |
| 23:03.09 | Amarande | because I'm pretty sure you can function in just about any raid, except MAYBE hardmode TOC25, in 232. |
| 23:03.20 | Nechckn | woops... then going to DKP for the remainder |
| 23:03.21 | Amarande | the 200 guy on the other hand NEEDS the upgrade more in order to get up to speed. |
| 23:03.27 | Ward | Amarande, it's a theoretical downside of DKP |
| 23:03.41 | Amarande | in other words, my thought is *the more of an upgrade* something is for someone, the more dibs that someone naturally ought to have on that gear :S |
| 23:03.48 | Nechckn | So, if a total new person shows up, then they will get pimped before anyone's alts, if it is a decent guild. |
| 23:03.53 | Ward | Amarande, now that causes drama |
| 23:04.08 | Ward | for all the people who were there when a raid wasn't on farm |
| 23:04.09 | Amarande | Ward: why? it's the completely practical thing to do. |
| 23:04.14 | Ward | and actually put in the effort on progress |
| 23:04.17 | Nechckn | I am not a fan of DKP, btw, just thought I'd get that out there. ;-) |
| 23:04.22 | Amarande | if you have a bunch of people geared in 232 and a guy geared in 200 |
| 23:04.31 | Nechckn | It's one of those "best" of a tricky situation sort of things. |
| 23:04.34 | Ward | we do have mains before alts |
| 23:04.45 | Amarande | you want to give the upgrades to the 200 guy, so he can get up to speed and not get stuck sucking no matter how well he may be raiding just because his gear doesn't have enough zomg on it. |
| 23:04.52 | Ward | but if you're a main, and a veteran with tons of dkp |
| 23:04.55 | Nechckn | As long as you have the stipulation that those filling the active rolls get the best goodies, first. |
| 23:05.14 | Amarande | at least, giving the 200 the upgrade seems like the obvious best thing *for the raid, taken as a group* |
| 23:05.16 | Ward | DKP is how activity is tracked |
| 23:05.22 | Amarande | yeah, it might cause drama *for the raiders, taken as individuals* though :| |
| 23:05.24 | Ward | and it gives people power over their own loot |
| 23:05.27 | Ward | you can save up |
| 23:05.29 | Ward | or spend fast |
| 23:05.34 | Ward | bid smart, bid wild |
| 23:05.54 | Amarande | Ward: it also causes people to obsess over patch day, though |
| 23:06.02 | Ward | how so? |
| 23:06.17 | Amarande | do you buy that upgrade, or do you worry that patch day is imminent and will make that upgrade a silly idea when it's going to possibly be badge gear tomorrow? |
| 23:06.19 | Nechckn | As you say, though, Amarande, you need a decent leader/leadership looking out for the group as a whole, first and foremost, then you can have any system for the leftovers. |
| 23:06.30 | Ward | Amarande, we reset DKP for new content |
| 23:06.53 | Nechckn | That helps avoid that hurdle |
| 23:06.53 | Amarande | Ward: that seems like it can cause drama as well |
| 23:06.57 | Ward | so ICC everyone is starting fresh, so my main veteran Mage has the same shot at gear as our week old trial members |
| 23:07.05 | Amarande | say newbie joins the guild, and starts accumulating DKP to buy the upgrades they want |
| 23:07.07 | Amarande | and then suddenly all that DKP is worthless |
| 23:07.14 | Amarande | because the guild is no longer running the content they earned it in |
| 23:07.19 | Ward | we announce the reset well in advance |
| 23:07.28 | Ward | they can still spend that DKP in ToC |
| 23:07.35 | Ward | but not in ICC |
| 23:07.37 | Amarande | Ward: *if the guild goes back to ToC* |
| 23:07.40 | Amarande | which sounds unlikely, actually |
| 23:07.43 | Ward | I guess we will |
| 23:07.46 | Ward | it's a quick farm |
| 23:07.52 | Amarande | ToC seems to be a pretty hated and reviled raid among raiders these days |
| 23:07.52 | Ward | Ulduar will probably drop from the schedule |
| 23:08.00 | Ward | we run 2x TOC 25 groups now each week |
| 23:08.01 | Amarande | people actually liked Ulduar, otoh |
| 23:08.05 | Ward | I think we'll at least manage 1 |
| 23:08.14 | Amarande | actually, I think it may be the tanks that cause ToC to get hated |
| 23:08.29 | Amarande | I understand ToC has some totally dumbassed loot tables when it comes to tank gear |
| 23:08.40 | Amarande | basically, tanks to get a good itemization have to run the same damn raid THREE TIMES A WEEK |
| 23:08.45 | Ward | toc normal is a quick farm, we do the 10 man in 80 mins, the 25 man in 90 mins on average |
| 23:08.47 | Amarande | or what's essentially the same raid at any rate |
| 23:08.57 | Ward | so we can run toc 25, onyxia 25 in 2 hours tops |
| 23:09.05 | Amarande | if they're in a 25's guild doing it on normal and heroic each week, they have to then run it on 10-man too because, well |
| 23:09.08 | Ward | also, ICC early on, will be phased |
| 23:09.08 | Amarande | tanks need hit in their itemization |
| 23:09.16 | Amarande | and from what I read on a tank blog, NONE OF THE 25 MAN TOC TANK GEAR HAS HIT. |
| 23:09.29 | Amarande | no, you have to run it AN EXTRA TIME every week to do it in 10 man in order to get any of that. |
| 23:09.35 | Ward | meh |
| 23:09.50 | Amarande | that makes me want to stick with Arms when I hit 80 on the warrior heh |
| 23:09.52 | Ward | we don't schedule raids because 1 tank needs a certain item |
| 23:09.59 | Ward | we just organize raids, as many as we can each week |
| 23:10.10 | Amarande | not to mention Arms means I might have a shot at Shadowmourne depending on how fast I can get up to 80 and geared and what groups I get into :) |
| 23:10.50 | Amarande | bah, but I'll probably end up tanking |
| 23:10.50 | Ward | if you're not ICC ready now, I wouldn't count on a Shadowmourne |
| 23:10.58 | Amarande | simply because I invested 500g into the saronite swordbreakers pattern |
| 23:11.09 | Amarande | which has "tank" written all over it |
| 23:11.12 | Amarande | stupid good AH deals :( |
| 23:11.51 | Ward | I got my shaman the 245 resto bracers |
| 23:11.51 | Ward | got the recipe for 300 and the mats for 1500 |
| 23:11.56 | Ward | prices are dropping fast |
| 23:11.59 | Amarande | probably once I get to 80 on Amalanya I'll stick with arms till I finish getting Quel'delar, and then get a good shield and start switching over to tanking |
| 23:12.34 | Amarande | how long do you think they'll let us play with 3.3 before Cata? |
| 23:12.51 | Ward | 6 months I guess |
| 23:13.02 | Amarande | 3.3's gonna be 245 paradise, anyway, at least among the craftables |
| 23:13.10 | Amarande | Crusader Orbs are bought with Triumphs, right? |
| 23:13.13 | Ward | yeah |
| 23:13.18 | Amarande | so an orb is what, a few hours of Random Heroic now? |
| 23:13.20 | Ward | and triumphs are gonna be legion |
| 23:13.25 | Ward | yeah |
| 23:13.48 | Ward | you'll get triumphs from heroics, all easy bosses like VOA |
| 23:13.58 | Ward | VOA 25 is gonna be insane first week, new boss |
| 23:14.44 | Ward | I'm leveling a druid |
| 23:14.47 | Ward | just got to 60 |
| 23:14.54 | Ward | bought epic flying :p |
| 23:14.59 | Ward | gonna get to 80 in no town |
| 23:15.04 | Ward | time |
| 23:17.25 | Amarande | I'm also making sure to get my lesser played alts to 35 so I can get done with Azerothian crafting profession leveling before Cata |
| 23:17.36 | Amarande | since I don't want to think about mats prices then when half the world goes to high level areas so won't give the same mats anymore |
| 23:17.45 | Ward | hehe |
| 23:17.52 | Ward | I almost have all 8 crafting profs |
| 23:17.54 | Amarande | BTW, any idea what you think will become of the Deepdive Helm in Cata? |
| 23:18.03 | Ward | I got LW, engi, tailoring and enchanting maxed out |
| 23:18.25 | Ward | and JC and Alchemy at 300+ |
| 23:18.25 | Ward | just gotta do Inscription and BS |
| 23:18.25 | Ward | I should probably roll a DK for that |
| 23:18.30 | Ward | get it done before expansion |
| 23:18.45 | Amarande | BS is almost at 300, then I'll be done with Azerothian metal unless I actually want to make something for twinking with |
| 23:18.59 | Amarande | after that it's alchemy, LW, and inscription |
| 23:19.21 | Amarande | JC is my main, I just need to find some gold to buy uncut metas with to max out the last 3 points |
| 23:20.02 | Amarande | I wonder what's going to become of gems in cata with all the stat changes |
| 23:20.04 | Ward | I actually had to mine my own copper and bronze and shit |
| 23:20.08 | Ward | to do Engineering and JC |
| 23:20.11 | Amarande | since some of the stats on gems are going to go away entirely |
| 23:20.14 | Ward | there's never any on my realm's AH |
| 23:20.24 | Amarande | and be gotten from attributes which aren't even same-colored gemwise |
| 23:20.42 | Ward | they'll probably just remove those gems |
| 23:20.49 | Amarande | what about ones that are already socketed? |
| 23:20.53 | Ward | enchants too I guess |
| 23:20.54 | Nechckn | Ward on all of my characters (alot) except like 2, I've ended up getting the raw mats simply because of the lack of supply. |
| 23:21.02 | Ward | maybe they'll dissappear |
| 23:21.14 | Amarande | I know with the spellpower change, IIRC, they just changed the healing-&-spellpower ones to equivalent amounts of spellpower |
| 23:21.18 | Amarande | and the same with spellpower enchants |
| 23:21.22 | Ward | yeah |
| 23:21.29 | Amarande | which led to a lot of things becoming sillily similar but they were still there |
| 23:21.33 | Amarande | the main reason I wonder about gems though is |
| 23:21.36 | Ward | you used to have pre tbc healing enchants, which are now imba for twinks |
| 23:21.45 | Ward | cause they give more spellpower than the equivallent spellpower enchants |
| 23:25.15 | Amarande | there's a pretty rigid correspondence between colors and attributes though when it comes to gems, which is not the case for enchants. |
| 23:25.19 | Amarande | for instance, spellpower always being red, etc. |
| 23:25.46 | Amarande | the trouble is that ... hmm, what's being removed, spellpower -> int and attack power -> str/agi? |
| 23:26.16 | Ward | yeah think so |
| 23:26.17 | Amarande | AP will convert smoothly, since both Strength and Agility are red, and so is AP |
| 23:26.19 | Ward | int is yellow I think |
| 23:26.22 | Ward | spellpower red |
| 23:26.27 | Amarande | But INT is yellow. |
| 23:26.48 | Ward | maybe they're also removing colours :p |
| 23:27.00 | Amarande | wonder if we'll see a choice of yellow or red int gems then? |
| 23:27.04 | Ward | maybe going from a 6 colour to a 4 colour system |
| 23:27.08 | Ward | or 3 |
| 23:27.12 | Amarande | at least if you're willing to use obsolete gems, I'm sure they'll not give the choice for Cata gems |
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