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| 01:44.31 | amcnabb | I don't know too much about Emacs--how different are Xemacs and GNU Emacs? (I'm in a class with Lisp). |
| 01:44.40 | amcnabb | Is one a lot better than the other? |
| 01:45.04 | amcnabb | (before the flames come, I'm a normal, sane Vim guy normally) |
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| 01:52.40 | emcnabb | Vim guy? yes. Sane guy? no. |
| 01:53.13 | amcnabb | At least I'm the one. |
| 01:53.18 | amcnabb | It's more important. |
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| 02:20.53 | hans | amcnabb: i wouldn't be the one to say, but I think for what you're doing you probably won't notice anything other than cosmetic difference |
| 02:21.10 | hans | I'd just use what levi uses, to optimize irc assistance. :) |
| 02:24.37 | amcnabb | :) |
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| 03:28.02 | xbmodder_lappy | hey all |
| 03:28.49 | emcnabb | hey |
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| 04:07.15 | amcnabb | I feel really dirty, but I've now got Scheme running in Emacs. |
| 04:08.25 | maquis | amcnabb: why? |
| 04:08.50 | maquis | (as in "why did you get scheme running in emacs", not "why does it make you feel dirty") |
| 04:10.07 | amcnabb | That's like asking, "why do you feel dirty when you have to reinstall someone's Windows computer?" |
| 04:10.51 | amcnabb | But Emacs seems a lot better than DrScheme as an editor. |
| 04:19.22 | maquis | erm.... like i said, i'm not curious why it makes you feel dirty |
| 04:19.27 | maquis | i'm wondering why you were getting it working |
| 04:19.30 | maquis | are you in 330? |
| 04:30.37 | tensai | hans: ping |
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| 05:57.12 | *** topic/#utah is The source for OSS focused discussion in Utah. See sllug.org, uphpu.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, uvlug.org, fslc.usu.edu, nupm.org, utwaa.org, oalug.com, utaug.org. See planetutah.adelantellc.com for aggregate feeds | if you're looking to donate an old computer, check out stuporglue.org, *SSS 2006.01 released* [ http://softwarefor.org/get_software.html ] |
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| 06:00.40 | hans | tensai: pong |
| 06:00.53 | hans | maquis: I'd take emacs over drscheme any day |
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| 06:01.44 | hans | When I took 330 I did it all in vim. vim can be a good lisp editor. the advantage emacs has that makes me wish I'd used it instead is the evaluation |
| 06:21.28 | amcnabb | hans, I figure it's only fair to give Emacs a chance at what it's best at. |
| 06:21.48 | amcnabb | I'm thinking I might switch to Vim in a little bit, but I want to have given Emacs a good honest effort. |
| 06:22.49 | hans | see you're more open minded than I was. if I were taking it now, I'd do the same as you |
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| 06:37.55 | maquis | amcnabb: on problem 1 for the networking homework, when he talks about the standards levels, is he referring to the maturity levels? (I don't recall seeing anything else when I read through last night, but I'm not certain) |
| 06:40.30 | dilvie | emacs is good for lisp editing. |
| 06:40.36 | dilvie | I prefer vim for everything else. |
| 06:40.38 | dilvie | ;) |
| 06:40.47 | amcnabb | maquis, I haven't done the HW yet, so I don't know. |
| 06:41.34 | maquis | amcnabb: mmk |
| 06:48.58 | Hhhhh | I consider multi-purpose text editors an abomination |
| 06:49.20 | Hhhhh | IDE+++++!! |
| 06:49.57 | findlay | any text processing of any kind is obsolete |
| 06:50.14 | maquis | vim+++++++++ |
| 06:50.16 | findlay | icons and GUIs are the way of the future |
| 06:50.31 | findlay | we don't need strings or text of any kind anymore |
| 06:51.07 | Hhhhh | no, what I mean (spelled out clearly and very in a very NPC manner): emacs and vi = teh suxx |
| 06:51.29 | findlay | right. That's why there's vim |
| 06:51.42 | Hhhhh | vim = dinky little clone of vi |
| 06:51.48 | Hhhhh | and xemacs, etc |
| 06:51.53 | findlay | nedit? |
| 06:51.56 | maquis | yes... vi and emacs are't that great... but vim r0x0rz |
| 06:52.00 | maquis | :) |
| 06:52.11 | Hhhhh | all bastard children of those two abominations are included in the package |
| 06:52.28 | Hhhhh | vim, kvim, vim for windows, xemacs, etc |
| 06:52.34 | maquis | in which case, i disagree with you |
| 06:53.30 | Hhhhh | maquis, how can you compare using gdb in text mode and using command line to compile when most IDEs are just a shorcut key or a click? |
| 06:53.45 | Hhhhh | or a click there and you got a breakpoint? |
| 06:53.48 | Hhhhh | explain that |
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| 06:54.17 | Hhhhh | or having to write or generate a makefile? |
| 06:54.33 | maquis | Hhhhh: what's wrong with using a command-line to compile? |
| 06:54.47 | maquis | i don't have a problem with that |
| 06:54.58 | Hhhhh | unless it's a one line command to compile, it's more work than most IDEs |
| 06:55.04 | maquis | i think it's easier than using the mouse to go up and grab it |
| 06:55.13 | Hhhhh | IDEs have shortcuts |
| 06:55.21 | Hhhhh | btw much easier than vim commands |
| 06:55.26 | Hhhhh | faster too |
| 06:55.47 | maquis | i find the vim commands a lot easier than most other ways of doing things.... i don't have to reach for ctrl or alt or anything like that |
| 06:56.08 | Hhhhh | Ctrl can be easily reachable with your pinky... |
| 06:56.36 | maquis | if you remap it, yes... |
| 06:56.41 | Hhhhh | remap it? |
| 06:56.44 | maquis | yes... |
| 06:57.04 | Hhhhh | what are you talking about? most qwerty keyboard have Ctrl at your pinky's reach |
| 06:57.08 | maquis | although, it would be a similar remap to what i did for escape, so that's out of hte question |
| 06:57.15 | Hhhhh | unless you're using a PDA or some teeny-tiny laptop |
| 06:57.33 | maquis | i find it rather uncomfortable to reach, actually |
| 06:57.48 | Hhhhh | well, most commands in vim are a combination of letters, while most IDEs have a one key shortcut for pretty much everything |
| 06:57.53 | maquis | although, perhaps that is due to the fact that almost all my work is done on a laptop... |
| 06:58.06 | maquis | a one-key shortcut? |
| 06:58.12 | maquis | so, i can hit a, and it'll do what i want? |
| 06:58.14 | Hhhhh | I can't think of a single advantage of vim or emacs over a good IDE, while I can think of many advantages for IDEs |
| 06:58.22 | Hhhhh | Ctrl + B |
| 06:58.28 | Hhhhh | F7 in Visual C++ |
| 06:58.31 | Hhhhh | one key |
| 06:58.39 | Hhhhh | I forgot the kdevelop one |
| 06:58.49 | Hhhhh | Eclipse is Ctrl + Alt + B |
| 06:58.52 | maquis | what if you're working over ssh? |
| 06:59.00 | Hhhhh | I don't code over SSH |
| 06:59.10 | Hhhhh | heh |
| 06:59.18 | Hhhhh | X is slow iff the computer is slow |
| 06:59.22 | Hhhhh | note the iff |
| 06:59.29 | maquis | or if the network's slow |
| 06:59.45 | Hhhhh | I don't develop in network drives... |
| 06:59.52 | Hhhhh | or over SSH |
| 07:00.27 | Hhhhh | I guess vim is a better option (kindof an only option) if you do SSH to develop, but if you have a box right there, why SSH? |
| 07:00.38 | Hhhhh | buttons and menus don't get on the way |
| 07:00.43 | Hhhhh | not if you know the shortcuts |
| 07:00.44 | maquis | a nice black box with a yellow border around it, and some nice text |
| 07:01.03 | maquis | if you're only going to use the shortcuts, why have the buttons and menus? |
| 07:01.10 | maquis | it's a waste of screen real-estate |
| 07:01.14 | Hhhhh | well, maybe you're designing a GUI? |
| 07:01.22 | Hhhhh | in that case the MORE reason to stay away from vim |
| 07:01.35 | Hhhhh | RAD tools > trying to design GUIs in a text editor |
| 07:01.55 | pmcnabb | maquis, vim is good for coding, and with it i use xcode's gdb interface for debugging |
| 07:02.01 | maquis | the closest thing i've done to designing guis would be in web development |
| 07:02.14 | Hhhhh | maquis, I showed you my visual studio configuration (black background) once, I can assure you it doesn't get on the way |
| 07:02.20 | pmcnabb | makes it easy to see lots of variables without cluttering code with cout 's or printf 's |
| 07:02.44 | Hhhhh | at that ddd excels |
| 07:02.46 | maquis | pmcnabb: i'll have to look into that... i've always just done gdb in the command-line... |
| 07:02.52 | Hhhhh | and also does visual stuiod |
| 07:03.22 | Hhhhh | maquis, you'd notice an incredible development performance boost if you try ddd |
| 07:03.32 | maquis | Hhhhh: i've tried it |
| 07:03.38 | Hhhhh | and what did you think? |
| 07:04.05 | maquis | i didn't use it any differently from how i used the command-line |
| 07:04.09 | Hhhhh | I really can't see how CLI gdb could be easier than ddd |
| 07:04.21 | Hhhhh | or faster to use |
| 07:04.42 | Hhhhh | anyways, now I feel in love with Code::Blocks |
| 07:04.51 | Hhhhh | great IDE for linux |
| 07:05.38 | Hhhhh | I like it a lot better than anjuta (crashes too much), kdevelop (you have to write makefile yourself or it'll create about 89769879 unneeded files) and Eclipse (slowish) |
| 07:05.43 | maquis | i'm not very good with the debugger, and i end up not using it as much as i should, but the few things i do know how to do, i can do just fine with the command-line, and i found that trying to do them in ddd meant either doing it in the command-line at the bottom, or spending time searching around in menus to try to find whatever i wanted |
| 07:06.43 | Hhhhh | maquis, using a visual debugger that can easily show me register contents, objects in memory, memory usage, dissasembly, visual breakpoints in code, etc has made my life much easier and it definetely has saved my life in several projects |
| 07:06.56 | Hhhhh | sooooo easy to debug |
| 07:07.11 | Hhhhh | I almost feel embarrased for doing couts and printfs |
| 07:07.14 | Hhhhh | in the past |
| 07:08.28 | maquis | i just don't understand the debugger well enough... |
| 07:09.00 | Hhhhh | maquis, seriously, don't bother about learning CLI gdb, learn ddd |
| 07:09.09 | Hhhhh | I can promise you life will be 10x easier |
| 07:09.16 | Hhhhh | it's saved my neck sooo many times |
| 07:09.21 | Hhhhh | and it's very easy |
| 07:09.59 | maquis | Hhhhh: i can see how it could be useful to understand, but i do generally prefer working from the command-line most of the time while i'm programming |
| 07:10.05 | Hhhhh | any losses in time for using X will be rewarded hundredfold |
| 07:10.31 | Hhhhh | maquis, it'll cut your programming and debugging time like mad |
| 07:10.47 | Hhhhh | not joking, that's why so many people use Visual studio in industry |
| 07:10.55 | Hhhhh | but there are excellent alternatives in linux |
| 07:10.56 | Hhhhh | like ddd |
| 07:11.42 | Hhhhh | believe me, if you do C++ programming, and you only know how to use vim, you're in crutches while not needing them |
| 07:12.07 | Newsome | hrm, not exactly some of their better episodes of SG-1 & Atlantis tonight |
| 07:12.28 | maquis | Newsome: which SG-1? |
| 07:12.33 | Hhhhh | stargate 1 |
| 07:12.36 | maquis | yes... |
| 07:12.39 | maquis | but which ep |
| 07:12.48 | Newsome | tonight's episode |
| 07:12.57 | maquis | was it new? or what one was it? |
| 07:13.27 | Hhhhh | sorry |
| 07:13.40 | maquis | np |
| 07:13.48 | Newsome | Collateral Damage |
| 07:14.39 | maquis | somehow, whenever i'm home for a break (the only time i actually watch tv), it seems that they're playing episodes i've already seen... but i haven't seen very many episodes... |
| 07:14.41 | Newsome | Mitchell is arrested for murdering the doctor woman |
| 07:14.47 | maquis | hmmm |
| 07:14.50 | maquis | don't think i've seen it |
| 07:15.03 | Newsome | probably not. It was tonight's new episode |
| 07:15.14 | maquis | oh... in which case i definitely haven't seen it :) |
| 07:22.31 | maquis | erm.. yeah |
| 07:46.49 | colera | maquis: so i set up a linux box in my apartment and i can ssh into it and the xserver works on the machine but when i ssh with -X and launch an X app it say's "display not set" |
| 07:47.48 | colera | do i have to confifure the ssh deamon? |
| 07:48.15 | Newsome | is xauth installed? |
| 07:48.56 | colera | hmm probably not |
| 07:48.57 | colera | : ) |
| 07:49.21 | colera | it is a base debian install, it has basically nothing |
| 07:52.26 | colera | umm i don't think xauth is available from apt get with the default repositories is it? |
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| 08:02.05 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 08:12.37 | colera | Newsome: will that fix the problem? |
| 08:24.53 | Newsome | possibly |
| 08:27.23 | xbmodder_lappy | anyone know about setting up a ham link between two houses 1 mile from each other |
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| 08:36.54 | findlay | what did I just say? |
| 08:37.57 | xbmodder_lappy | i don't know |
| 08:42.10 | findlay | 1.21 jiggawatts! |
| 08:42.46 | findlay | xbmodder_lappy: that's one long hotdog |
| 08:42.57 | findlay | you should apply for the Guiness record |
| 08:43.31 | findlay | though I'm curious as to why you would ask about pork sausage on #utah |
| 08:46.01 | findlay | colera: 'rm -r ~/.ssh*' your cached ssh info, unless you have important keys in there and do 'ssh +X <server>' |
| 08:46.09 | findlay | the +X is important |
| 08:46.15 | findlay | can't be -X |
| 08:46.51 | xbmodder_lappy | findlay, :-/ |
| 08:46.54 | findlay | besides that X needs to be configured to allow connections over tcp |
| 08:47.08 | findlay | somewhere in /etc/X11/xorg.conf I think |
| 08:47.29 | xbmodder_lappy | findlay, wi-fi :) |
| 08:47.47 | findlay | wireless french fries? |
| 08:53.54 | findlay | longhorn was supposed to be all vector instead of bitmap |
| 09:01.33 | xbmodder_lappy | not all |
| 10:05.18 | TimRiker | http://rikers.org/hp2100/hp2108a2112a.avi <- heh. got more antique HP hardware working tonight. |
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| 15:15.45 | graphyx | morning. |
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| 15:25.03 | emcnabb | morning |
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| 16:53.09 | graphyx | howdy jsmith |
| 16:57.36 | jsmith | Howdy |
| 16:58.31 | graphyx | How's life treating you? |
| 16:59.11 | jsmith | Let's see -- I just finished up a conf. call regarding some contract work, and now I'm checking email/IRC/etc. before I head out to put the new alternator in my truck. |
| 16:59.19 | jsmith | All in all, not too bad. |
| 16:59.33 | jsmith | I've accomplished more this morning than I do most days, and it's just barely 10:00am. |
| 17:00.56 | jsmith | How 'bout you? |
| 17:02.26 | hans | ibot, onjoin -jsmith |
| 17:02.26 | ibot | hans: ok |
| 17:03.04 | hans | jsmith: I just did an alternator last week. tons of fun. |
| 17:03.13 | graphyx | jsmith: Doing well. |
| 17:03.18 | graphyx | working on pen testing at work. |
| 17:03.23 | tensai | hans: pong, pong |
| 17:03.31 | graphyx | About ready to finish up the report. |
| 17:03.50 | graphyx | relaxing up for an interview next week. |
| 17:03.52 | graphyx | you know. |
| 17:05.09 | tensai | hans: radios usually take a few degrees of misalignment. 2-3 either way. depends on how high the gain is, too. higher gain == less tolerance |
| 17:06.32 | hans | tensai: just curious if you know how sensitive to alignment an antenna like this is: http://www.sbtnet.com/popups/yellowhill.php |
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| 17:07.00 | jsmith | hans: This one wasn't too bad -- I had all the bolts out in about 15 minutes, but then it took me another 30 minutes to extract the alternator from under the hood. |
| 17:07.30 | hans | that's what it looks like on my parents' roof |
| 17:07.35 | hans | and this is what they're pointing at |
| 17:07.36 | hans | http://www.sbtnet.com/popups/asphaltridge.php |
| 17:07.58 | tensai | hans: good old smartbridges. they've been EOL'd and we're getting rid of them. |
| 17:09.23 | tensai | I think that antenna is 12db. couple degrees. we periodically have to dispatch out to realign radios after wind storms. |
| 17:10.03 | graphyx | tensai: Does your ISP primarily do wireless links? |
| 17:10.58 | tensai | graphyx: lots of wireless, dsl, dialup. I'm really not sure whether we do more wireless or dsl. |
| 17:11.59 | graphyx | Cool. |
| 17:12.06 | graphyx | What dsl modems do you use? |
| 17:12.39 | tensai | hans: their site is High Quality. "Text goes here. Text goes here. Text goes here." |
| 17:12.45 | hans | oh yeah |
| 17:12.50 | hans | and the email address bounces |
| 17:13.04 | *** part/#utah mindjuju (n=mindjuju@216.20.238.225) |
| 17:13.13 | hans | and it says "LOCAL SERVICE 24/7" which I can tell you is quite untrue. :) |
| 17:14.09 | tensai | I see your answer right here. "If we can not please you and keep you as a customer because of our service, we do not deserve you. You can cancel at any time!" |
| 17:14.18 | hans | no kidding |
| 17:14.21 | hans | too bad there's nothing else |
| 17:14.29 | hans | cable isn't even to where they are |
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| 17:14.40 | hans | well, there's satellite which is apparently way expensive, aside from being silly |
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| 17:15.16 | tensai | graphyx: for qwest dsl, mostly actiontecs. we support anything qwest supports since it's their dslam. for our own dsl we use elastic networks. |
| 17:16.13 | hans | do you have any special tools for alignment, or just eyeball it? |
| 17:16.15 | tensai | hans: have you tried the online support? I think it'll save you some hassle. |
| 17:16.25 | hans | lol |
| 17:17.25 | tensai | hans: honestly, I don't know. I've never done the hands-on stuff. actually, I'll be doing it a week from Monday. I'll know better then. |
| 17:17.44 | tensai | I only know enough to fix them once they're up |
| 17:17.44 | hans | heh, ok I'll ask then if I need to. :) |
| 17:18.07 | tensai | we only have wireless in Wyoming. nothing here in Idaho. |
| 17:18.19 | hans | speaking of which, anything we can do to talk to it? |
| 17:18.37 | tensai | can you see Rock Springs from Vernal? |
| 17:18.42 | tensai | or Green River |
| 17:18.56 | hans | I don't know |
| 17:19.17 | tensai | it's like 150 miles, so I'd be really surprised |
| 17:19.18 | hans | you have points there? |
| 17:19.35 | tensai | yes. 3 towers in Rock Springs, one in Green River |
| 17:20.16 | hans | green river the city? no way |
| 17:20.37 | tensai | ok, 112 highway miles |
| 17:21.03 | hans | oh, there's a green river wy |
| 17:21.12 | hans | are they in that basin? |
| 17:21.20 | tensai | there's a green river, ut? |
| 17:21.26 | hans | yeah |
| 17:21.34 | hans | around the middle |
| 17:21.50 | tensai | green river wy is at the head of flaming gorge |
| 17:21.55 | hans | there's a ridge north of vernal between it and wy |
| 17:22.17 | hans | maybe if you had a repeater on that ridge though |
| 17:23.55 | hans | green river ut is on I70 |
| 17:24.05 | emcnabb | ugh, Flaming Gorge... |
| 17:24.05 | hans | where green river crosses it. :) |
| 17:24.16 | sjansen | ugh, emcnabb.... |
| 17:24.26 | emcnabb | ugh, sjansen.... |
| 17:25.30 | emcnabb | time for a nap |
| 17:29.25 | tensai | hans: if that guy is freaking out about you running smokeping, his network must have serious issues |
| 17:29.41 | hans | or he's completely incompetent |
| 17:29.52 | hans | and doesn't even know that something like smokeping is no danger |
| 17:29.54 | tensai | we monitor every one of our customers with nagios and cacti |
| 17:31.46 | hans | well let me know when you guys expand into the uintah basin :) |
| 18:02.59 | xbmodder_lappy | hey |
| 18:05.07 | maquis | iwi0: unknown notification type 15 |
| 18:07.09 | xbmodder_lappy | Anybody can invite me to google-analytics? |
| 18:07.24 | xbmodder_lappy | I'll give you mail/shell |
| 18:13.05 | findlay | Does anybody here like Schumann's piano music? |
| 18:17.15 | *** join/#utah amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:22.23 | hans | sure |
| 18:22.55 | hans | how does one reclaim space on openwrt? ipkg remove won't work |
| 18:24.11 | hans | # ipkg remove -recursive ppp |
| 18:24.11 | hans | Removing package ppp-mod-pppoe from root... |
| 18:24.12 | hans | Removing package ppp from root... |
| 18:24.12 | hans | ipkg_conf_write_status_files: Can't open status file: //usr/lib/ipkg/status for writing: No space left on device |
| 18:27.13 | findlay | hans: time to delete all that Schumann on your wrt to make room for /usr/lib/ipkg/status |
| 18:27.15 | tensai | hans: remove some files. unfortunately, there's not much wasted space with openwrt. |
| 18:27.29 | tensai | you could move stuff to /tmp which is a ramdisk. just hope the power doesn't go out. |
| 18:29.03 | hans | hmm. I just moved libcrypto and libssl into /tmp which should give me a meg |
| 18:29.07 | hans | but df still says only 16k free |
| 18:29.15 | maquis | ~curse X |
| 18:29.16 | ibot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, X ! |
| 18:29.22 | hans | I can't even touch a file |
| 18:29.46 | hans | or make a symlink |
| 18:29.56 | Newsome | how about "df -i" |
| 18:30.06 | hans | busybox df doesn't understand -i |
| 18:30.10 | hans | -h, -m, -k |
| 18:30.12 | Newsome | hrm |
| 18:30.39 | Newsome | nevermind, then |
| 18:32.03 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=bonez@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:32.42 | sjansen | Wow, writing a cross-platform RCS that supports Unicode is a royal PITA. |
| 18:33.02 | hans | seems like it would be |
| 18:33.07 | hans | are you writing an RCS? |
| 18:33.35 | sjansen | following the development of bazaar-ng |
| 18:34.48 | sjansen | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.bazaar-ng.general/7248 |
| 18:35.28 | sjansen | And on #bzr right now they're discussing how to properly handle .bzrignore when it contains more than ASCII. |
| 18:36.33 | sjansen | ~haha maquis |
| 18:36.34 | ibot | ACTION beats maquis about the head with the ha ha bat |
| 18:39.55 | findlay | I always thought bazaar-ng was a bazaar name for an RCS |
| 18:40.17 | maquis | -lart findlay |
| 18:40.43 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:44.33 | emcnabb | brac, how much did you get for him? |
| 18:44.34 | brac | beats me |
| 18:47.02 | emcnabb | this dog has too much energy |
| 18:47.08 | emcnabb | stop moving! |
| 18:48.59 | findlay | -lart emcnabb's dog |
| 18:49.22 | emcnabb | findlay, you better watch out, sjansen is going to get you for that one |
| 18:50.59 | maquis | emcnabb: i'll take the dog :) |
| 18:51.57 | maquis | sjansen: that would be a bit more dramatic if you were hitting him about hte head instead of giving him about the head |
| 18:52.05 | findlay | ow, hey |
| 18:52.09 | emcnabb | sjansen, thanks! |
| 18:52.15 | emcnabb | I know I can count on you |
| 18:52.38 | findlay | ~bark sjansen |
| 18:52.48 | emcnabb | they're fun, but a lot of work; in the end they're worth it |
| 18:53.03 | emcnabb | she finally fell asleep on my lap, so I can get some work done |
| 18:56.13 | bonez39 | [-- Autoview using /usr/local/bin/links -dump '/tmp/mutt.html' --] |
| 18:56.14 | bonez39 | [-- Autoview stderr of /usr/local/bin/links -dump '/tmp/mutt.html' --] |
| 18:56.14 | bonez39 | sh: line 1: /usr/local/bin/links: No such file or directory |
| 18:56.52 | bonez39 | Anyone else running Mutt, gettng these errors? |
| 18:57.35 | emcnabb | nope |
| 19:08.17 | maquis | 200t! |
| 19:08.18 | maquis | er |
| 19:08.20 | maquis | w00t! |
| 19:09.14 | findlay | bonez39: looks like you don't have links installed |
| 19:21.23 | bonez39 | findlay, how do I get them install? |
| 19:21.40 | hans | or your mailcap has the wrong path for it |
| 19:21.56 | findlay | bonez39: what distro? |
| 19:22.04 | bonez39 | findlay, deb 3.1 |
| 19:22.29 | findlay | first do a 'whereis links' |
| 19:22.51 | bonez39 | text/html; /usr/local/bin/links -dump %s; nametemplate=%s.html; copiousoutput; |
| 19:23.00 | bonez39 | that's from ~/.mailcap |
| 19:23.39 | bonez39 | fyrenice:/home/scott# whereis links |
| 19:23.39 | bonez39 | links: |
| 19:23.39 | bonez39 | fyrenice:/home/scott# |
| 19:23.45 | hans | if links is installed (apt-get install links) then you might need to change the path in ~/.mailcap |
| 19:24.14 | hans | apt-get install links; which links; # edit your mailcap to match |
| 19:24.14 | bonez39 | hans, links was not installed, but will be now |
| 19:25.51 | findlay | hans: what is the method for finding whether a package is installed in debian? |
| 19:26.06 | hans | dpkg --status foo |
| 19:26.07 | bonez39 | oh, that's cool..... |
| 19:26.39 | bonez39 | I ran apt-get install links...and then corrected the entry in .mailcap which was pointing to /usr/local/bin/links, when it installed to /usr/bin/links |
| 19:26.43 | bonez39 | works now |
| 19:26.55 | bonez39 | hans, findlay thank you! |
| 19:27.44 | findlay | I always knew I was a genius |
| 19:28.00 | bonez39 | you are |
| 19:28.07 | bonez39 | hans does OK too....! |
| 19:28.50 | findlay | cool tcpdump has a sweet site |
| 19:28.58 | findlay | http://www.tcpdump.org |
| 19:29.02 | brac | [TCPDUMP public repository] |
| 20:00.47 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 20:00.47 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:25.45 | qbfreak | something like "Captain on the bridge!" ? |
| 20:29.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Hmm - anyone know of a good remote server deal? |
| 20:29.58 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd need root access to the hardware without limits essentially (want to setup IPSec + whatever else I please) |
| 20:30.10 | ScytheBlade1 | and at least 30GB/month if not more |
| 20:30.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Disk storage isn't really a big one |
| 20:31.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Nearly every place I've found that offers SSH also says things like, "MySQL Databases: 3" |
| 20:31.31 | sjansen | ScytheBlade1: linode.com |
| 20:31.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Implying you don't really have all of the access needed |
| 20:31.57 | ScytheBlade1 | holy wow |
| 20:31.59 | ScytheBlade1 | That's a win |
| 20:32.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Thank you! |
| 20:32.47 | findlay | anytime |
| 20:33.28 | amcnabb | Neverblock is still beta, isn't it? |
| 20:33.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Apparently |
| 20:34.17 | ScytheBlade1 | This is considered an "unmanaged" service Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes |
| 20:34.22 | ScytheBlade1 | That's exactly what I'm looking for |
| 20:34.29 | sjansen | It's goozbach's. No idea how he'd classify it. |
| 20:35.11 | findlay | maybe he thinks it's gamma |
| 20:35.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Is anyone here using linode.com for service currently? |
| 20:35.35 | amcnabb | I am. |
| 20:35.43 | ScytheBlade1 | What do you think of it? |
| 20:36.06 | amcnabb | I've been really happy with it. The only problem is that sometimes SSH latency is a little high since it's a shared host. |
| 20:36.13 | amcnabb | And they're a little stingy with RAM. |
| 20:36.28 | amcnabb | Overall, I've been really happy. |
| 20:36.41 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd be largely using it for HTTP, SSH, and IPSec |
| 20:36.52 | amcnabb | We do HTTP, SSH, OpenVPN, etc. |
| 20:37.09 | amcnabb | also Postfix. |
| 20:37.12 | sjansen | Very little down time. Very competent service. At some point it'll switch from UML to Xen, which'll give a nice speed boast. |
| 20:37.19 | ScytheBlade1 | All of which setup yourself? |
| 20:37.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Not managed by them? |
| 20:37.54 | sjansen | I use it for postfix, dovecot, openldap, jabberd. |
| 20:38.20 | ScytheBlade1 | That's, really, really nice |
| 20:38.23 | sjansen | You are 100% responsible for configuring your box. SSH in and go to town installing whatever you want. |
| 20:38.35 | ScytheBlade1 | That's exactly what I'm looking for |
| 20:38.36 | *** part/#utah phinux (n=phinux@strychnine.cs.byu.edu) |
| 20:38.47 | findlay | sjansen: even xpenguins!? |
| 20:38.58 | sjansen | All that Linode provides is a pipe, a reliable power source, and fast response in the even of hardware failure. Not sure if they even do backups. |
| 20:39.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Run your own kernel? |
| 20:39.48 | sjansen | Nope. Although that might change when they switch to Xen. |
| 20:40.00 | findlay | what distro(s)? |
| 20:40.18 | ScytheBlade1 | From the sound of it though, they support everything needed anyways |
| 20:40.19 | maquis | methinks goozbach is already doing a version of this using Xen... |
| 20:40.19 | sjansen | No kernel modules either. Security risk on a shared server. |
| 20:40.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah |
| 20:40.38 | sjansen | But they're generally pretty responsive if you ask for something reasonable. |
| 20:40.39 | ScytheBlade1 | And that's fine, but I'm just curious if they support the in-kernel IPSec stuff |
| 20:40.42 | ScytheBlade1 | and disk encryption |
| 20:41.03 | ScytheBlade1 | (loopback disk encryption_ |
| 20:41.04 | ScytheBlade1 | *) |
| 20:41.17 | sjansen | Dig through the online support forum. Every time they add a new kernel, caker posts the config options so you can see what's included. |
| 20:42.10 | sjansen | findlay: linode.com lists what the pre-built images you can choose from, but basically any x86 distro can be used if you create it yourself then copy it up to your server. |
| 20:42.26 | ScytheBlade1 | There's all of the crypto settings |
| 20:42.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Now to check for the IPSec specific stuff |
| 20:44.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Sure enough, they have it all |
| 20:45.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Anyone here using neverblock.com? |
| 20:45.32 | ScytheBlade1 | (aside from goozbach, heh) |
| 20:47.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Although if he's alive, he can certaintly answer also |
| 20:47.39 | findlay | ~summon goozbach |
| 20:47.40 | ibot | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing goozbach's coordinates |
| 20:48.08 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 20:49.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Which packages from linode.com do each of you have? |
| 20:50.12 | maquis | findlay: i think you mean to invoke him... without the ~ |
| 20:52.54 | sjansen | I have the 120. I think amcnabb is splitting an 160 with his brothers. |
| 20:53.29 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd be splitting the cost 50/50 with a friend, so that'll help out quite a bi |
| 20:53.31 | ScytheBlade1 | *bit |
| 21:05.58 | sjansen | ~spell heebeegeebees |
| 21:17.13 | *** join/#utah hans (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 21:20.43 | *** join/#utah spr (n=spr@c-24-10-236-93.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:25.53 | dilvie | Knobtweakers Birthday Bash is tonight at Club Halo in SLC |
| 21:26.11 | dilvie | We're going to have Spotted Dog ice cream. =) |
| 21:26.34 | dilvie | come hang out and shoot some pool with me if you can. |
| 21:26.39 | dilvie | (free pool) |
| 21:26.49 | dilvie | . /msg me to get on my guest-list |
| 21:27.11 | hans | sound like fun. too bad I'm nowhere near slcd |
| 21:27.19 | dilvie | hans: where are you? |
| 21:27.26 | hans | Las Cruces, NM |
| 21:27.39 | dilvie | hans: permanently? |
| 21:27.41 | findlay | what's the difference between unstable and testing? as far as packages are concerned? |
| 21:28.02 | hans | for the next few years anyway |
| 21:28.05 | hans | going to grad school |
| 21:28.06 | dilvie | findlay: I don't remember. |
| 21:28.15 | hans | unstable: first upload |
| 21:28.18 | dilvie | hans: what are you studying? |
| 21:28.26 | hans | testing: seems to work for at least a couple of weeks |
| 21:28.34 | dilvie | heh |
| 21:28.39 | hans | or seems to work without major bugs anyway |
| 21:28.47 | hans | that's the debian meanings, anyhow |
| 21:28.55 | hans | computer science |
| 21:29.03 | hans | phd, my research will be computer music related |
| 21:29.08 | dilvie | I used to run the unstable distro on my local web servers.. worked fine. |
| 21:29.25 | hans | debian testing is roughly equivalent to the first release of any other distro |
| 21:29.27 | dilvie | hans: really? |
| 21:29.31 | hans | at the moment it is released |
| 21:29.32 | dilvie | hans: kindred spirit? |
| 21:29.37 | findlay | the debian tense was what I was looking for specifically anyway: difference between sarge and sid |
| 21:29.39 | hans | yup |
| 21:29.47 | hans | well, sarge isn't testing anymore |
| 21:29.48 | hans | it's stable |
| 21:29.55 | hans | etch is the current testing |
| 21:30.02 | hans | sid is always unstable |
| 21:30.29 | findlay | like that kid from the pixar movie |
| 21:30.41 | hans | exactly. all the names are from toy story |
| 21:31.04 | findlay | do you think wheezy was supposed to be tux? |
| 21:31.10 | hans | dilvie: yup. This semester I'm taking a "realtime dsp" class from the EE dept. |
| 21:31.11 | dilvie | a lot of the core distro packages (server -- not desktop) run pretty well, even on thi sid distro |
| 21:31.25 | dilvie | hans: neat. =) |
| 21:31.34 | dilvie | hans: I do realtime dsp all the time. |
| 21:31.36 | dilvie | ehehe |
| 21:31.57 | hans | hehe. :) As I understand it, the class is doing dsp in embedded processors |
| 21:32.03 | dilvie | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:32.05 | hans | C programming type of stuff |
| 21:32.38 | findlay | hans: are you by Shiprock or Farmington? |
| 21:32.45 | hans | my advisor and I are still narrowing things down (this is my second semester), but it's probably going to be some kind of audio analysis |
| 21:32.48 | dilvie | interesting. I designed some hardware that did dsp on embedded processors |
| 21:32.52 | hans | findlay: about 6 hours from Farmington |
| 21:33.22 | hans | down by el paso |
| 21:33.32 | findlay | music audio analysis? |
| 21:33.47 | hans | probably something along those lines |
| 21:34.16 | hans | my advisor is teaching a computer music in linux class this semester |
| 21:34.30 | hans | but taking it would be a joke for me |
| 21:36.13 | findlay | as in synthisized music? |
| 21:36.45 | hans | yeah, and also "normal" music recording using the computer |
| 21:37.20 | findlay | so like, "This is how to use mplayer to play a cdda track."? |
| 21:37.33 | hans | "computer music" is a very broad term, much more than most people think. It's how I amuse myself, trying to divine what people think "computer music" means. |
| 21:37.44 | findlay | (: |
| 21:38.18 | hans | some people just give me a blank stare, as if I'd just said "Sourdough Rubber" or something |
| 21:38.28 | sjansen | I define it to include the soft whoosh and satisfying crash when you throw a computer out the window. |
| 21:38.40 | hans | other people assume composing synthesized music. |
| 21:39.29 | hans | some more enlightened about CS assume writing software synthesizers or something |
| 21:39.47 | hans | which is getting closer to what I might do |
| 21:40.14 | hans | of course when I figure out what I'm going to do, then _everyone_ will give me blank stares. so maybe I'll just say "computer music" anyway. :) |
| 21:40.40 | findlay | hans: you need to come up with a way overkill technical term for it |
| 21:41.35 | dilvie | hans: haha, I tend to think of fractal music when I hear the term "computer music" |
| 21:41.44 | findlay | for me I always say "brane theory" |
| 21:41.56 | findlay | imagine the stares you would get with that |
| 21:42.07 | hans | dilvie: exactly! musicians who have been exposed to electronic music think computer-generated music |
| 21:42.30 | hans | which is definitely part of what I consider the field of computer music |
| 21:43.06 | findlay | especially when they find out my research will be their tax dollars at work |
| 21:43.11 | dilvie | I like sjansen's definition. |
| 21:43.13 | dilvie | ehehe |
| 21:43.44 | dilvie | hans: I've done a fair bit of algorithmic music |
| 21:43.56 | hans | some of the things most people would never know to think of: automatic jazz accompaniment (CMU), music classification and similarity, beat detection, automatic transcription, instrument recognition, physical modeling of instruments, etc. |
| 21:44.02 | dilvie | but I tend to dislike _most_ music that is 100% algorithmic. |
| 21:44.31 | dilvie | some geeks take a far too hands-off aproach, and fail to coax it into something that is actually pleasing to the ears. |
| 21:44.35 | findlay | hans: those are some interesting areas of music software |
| 21:45.03 | hans | randblues.ogg here http://hans.fugal.net/music/ is my foray into "algorithmic" music |
| 21:45.04 | brac | [Index of /music] |
| 21:45.39 | hans | I basically had a bunch of random notes on a blues scale with probabilities leaning towards smaller (e.g. more melodic) steps |
| 21:45.55 | hans | and then I did the accompaniment stuff. this was for an electronic music class at byu |
| 21:46.28 | hans | you can see all my other "music" there too. :) then you'll see why I'm going into the computer science end of computer music and not the composition bit |
| 21:46.30 | dilvie | hans: is this a fractal piece? |
| 21:46.53 | hans | I could probably dig up the script I used to generate that. but no, not fractal |
| 21:48.00 | dilvie | there's a bit of melody in here that doesn't sound like computer-generated music |
| 21:48.29 | findlay | hans: would it be too difficult to write an algorithm to generate some simple polyphony? |
| 21:48.40 | findlay | like a cannon or even a fugue? |
| 21:48.44 | dilvie | hans: this is fascinating, but not particularly musical. =) |
| 21:49.16 | hans | it's supposed to be in the old academic "electronic music" genre, e.g. karlheinz stockhausen, etc. |
| 21:49.30 | findlay | after all the most difficult part of polyphony (at least for me) is making sure the vertical tonalities and horizontal themes match |
| 21:49.41 | dilvie | hans: yeah, I had similar opinions about that stuff. ;) |
| 21:49.53 | hans | which many would argue as not particularly musical in the first place. and whether mine is anything like that even is certinly debatbale. :) |
| 21:50.00 | dilvie | shadow and flame is cool. |
| 21:50.06 | hans | I came to appreciate it somewhat when I took the class |
| 21:50.23 | hans | findlay: there have been people to do things like that. another area |
| 21:50.49 | dilvie | I appreciate it, but more as academically interesting than as something to be enjoyed musically. |
| 21:51.01 | hans | right |
| 21:51.04 | findlay | some kind of ai, feed it all of JS Bach then have it use it's acquired skill in turning over themes on a simple theme |
| 21:51.24 | findlay | and then have it compose a 4 part fugue (-: |
| 21:51.32 | dilvie | findlay: something like that has been done |
| 21:51.37 | hans | findlay: now you're getting the juices flowing. see all the cool things you can do with computer and music |
| 21:51.40 | dilvie | and it passed a musical equivalent of the turing test. |
| 21:51.58 | dilvie | the computer-generated music managed to fool an audience into thinking that it was genuine bach |
| 21:51.59 | findlay | not even Bach completed a quadruple fugue |
| 21:52.03 | hans | in_dulci_jubilo could have been good but I realize now it's WAY too slow |
| 21:52.50 | hans | dilvie: my friend Art Moore helped me with shadow and flame at the last minute (like 2 hours before it was due) when I lost all my work |
| 21:53.02 | dilvie | wow. |
| 21:53.06 | dilvie | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:53.07 | hans | we took what I did still have |
| 21:53.19 | hans | did some effects in audacity |
| 21:53.25 | hans | and then just went crazy in terminatorx |
| 21:53.39 | dilvie | what is terminatorx? |
| 21:53.56 | hans | basically an elaborate record scratcher. :) |
| 21:54.07 | dilvie | hans: oh. =) |
| 21:54.11 | hans | http://www-stud.fht-esslingen.de/~alex/tX/ |
| 21:54.16 | dilvie | I like the scratch effects a lot, actually. =) |
| 21:54.50 | dilvie | I don't suppose there's a mac port? |
| 21:56.17 | hans | that one is as much art's piece as mine. |
| 21:56.42 | hans | I don't know. it might be portable |
| 21:56.58 | hans | someone may have even ported it |
| 21:57.26 | hans | hmm, aseqjoy looks cool |
| 21:57.37 | hans | I never thought about making the joystick a midi controller |
| 21:58.41 | hans | this is another fun prog: |
| 21:58.41 | hans | http://dis-dot-dat.net/index.cgi?item=code/slat/ |
| 21:58.42 | brac | [dis-dot-dat.net/SLAT - Sounds like a theremin] |
| 22:00.55 | dilvie | I've been using joystick devices as midi controllers for years |
| 22:01.08 | dilvie | even had a nintendo powerglove mod going |
| 22:03.12 | hans | there you have it: http://hans.fugal.net/music/rand_blues.rb the script that generated the random blues "melody" |
| 22:03.15 | findlay | cool. I want to write a ployphony generator now that can do fugues, canons, passicaglias, inventions, and chaconne |
| 22:04.19 | findlay | chaconnes |
| 22:06.54 | dilvie | that script just outputs a midi file, yeah? |
| 22:07.05 | dilvie | what is smf? |
| 22:07.42 | hans | yeah, standard midi file |
| 22:07.51 | hans | so ./rand_blues.rb > foo.mid |
| 22:09.46 | findlay | hans: does working with software like that ever make you think the traditional Western composers with dramatic and detailed creations is overwrought? |
| 22:10.09 | hans | software like what? |
| 22:10.28 | findlay | software that generates "random" music |
| 22:10.53 | hans | heh. well, considering that I like listening to their compositions but I don't like listening to my random music, no. |
| 22:11.01 | findlay | (: |
| 22:11.40 | hans | I'd heard how if you have a blues scale and blues chord progressions, you can't play a "wrong" note |
| 22:11.45 | hans | everything fits. |
| 22:12.02 | hans | I figured the only way to really be sure was to generate random notes on the blues scale with a blues progression |
| 22:12.25 | hans | the result isn't exactly melodic, but I think it does demonstrate that you don't really violate the harmony pretty well. |
| 22:12.43 | findlay | when you said something about generating jazz accompaniment, I immediately extrapolated that realized figured bass |
| 22:13.21 | findlay | as a simmilar thing |
| 22:13.23 | hans | could be, I'm not sure. it's more than just accomaniment though, what they did at CMU was realtime following of a soloist |
| 22:13.49 | findlay | and the soloist was improvising? |
| 22:13.49 | hans | jazz comping is relatively simple after all, but following a soloist is a bit more tricky |
| 22:13.52 | hans | yup |
| 22:14.02 | dilvie | hans: it's impossible to violate the harmony on a blues scale |
| 22:14.12 | dilvie | you can play all the notes at once, and it sounds okay. |
| 22:14.14 | findlay | realizing figured bass should be easier I think |
| 22:14.27 | findlay | since I think it's more well defined |
| 22:14.30 | hans | dilvie: right, which is what random blues is based on. |
| 22:14.30 | dilvie | as long as they're all in key |
| 22:14.45 | hans | I don't claim it's melodic, but it is harmonic. :) |
| 22:14.51 | findlay | so no modulations then? |
| 22:15.01 | dilvie | hans: that doesn't mean that if you want to play good blues, you should just play random notes at random intervals |
| 22:15.07 | hans | naturally :) |
| 22:15.07 | dilvie | there's much more to music than that. ;) |
| 22:15.31 | findlay | I guess modulations aren't that importat to blues anyway |
| 22:15.32 | dilvie | urm, I probably shouldn't say "intervals" when I'm talking about musical time. |
| 22:15.34 | dilvie | ehehe |
| 22:15.36 | dilvie | could get confusing. |
| 22:15.41 | dilvie | but I think you know what I meant. |
| 22:15.47 | hans | I did |
| 22:16.16 | hans | but the intervals are also important |
| 22:16.19 | hans | ;-) |
| 22:16.39 | dilvie | findlay: when you modulate, you're still playing in key -- you're just playing in a different key. |
| 22:16.52 | hans | findlay: in the cmu thing, I'm guessing they had a prearranged chord progression, as is fairly normal in jazz |
| 22:17.14 | dilvie | you could easily set the script to modulate at some mark -- say, 64 measures in, play for 24 measures in that key, and modulate back |
| 22:17.16 | hans | but tempo and other things were improvised. |
| 22:17.23 | dilvie | but then you're starting to compose |
| 22:17.36 | dilvie | or, at least, add human structure to the composition |
| 22:18.50 | hans | one of the things I want to do is take some of my fav. bach organ pieces and synthesize them |
| 22:19.14 | hans | I've always been more comfortable and capable realizing music than composing it |
| 22:19.25 | hans | and the part I like best about electronic music is making the neat sounds |
| 22:19.42 | hans | so I let bach do all the hard work. cheap, I know. ;-) |
| 22:19.59 | findlay | there's nothing more satisfying than playing a Bach 5 voice fugue on a huge organ in a big hall |
| 22:20.02 | hans | but organ itself is an additive synthesis instrument of sorts |
| 22:20.25 | hans | findlay: you play bach organ? |
| 22:20.40 | findlay | like the passicaglia and fugue with all the stops pulled out in the final cadences |
| 22:20.42 | hans | or are you extrapolating? |
| 22:20.45 | findlay | oh yeah |
| 22:20.54 | findlay | hans: no, I know a few pieces |
| 22:20.54 | hans | really? cool |
| 22:21.02 | hans | pedals too? |
| 22:21.05 | findlay | yup |
| 22:21.08 | hans | nice |
| 22:21.37 | hans | I have most of the bach organ works sheet music, and herrick's complete organ works recordings |
| 22:22.26 | hans | as organ music was written for an additive synthesis instrument, and usually exactly which stops to pull is really the organist's decision |
| 22:22.42 | hans | it follows that it's a great candidate for synthesis |
| 22:23.48 | findlay | truly very simmilar |
| 22:25.29 | findlay | the whole passicaglia and fugue is like an 8 minute study in delay so that when you finally arrive at the ultimate C major chord at the end the effect is awesome |
| 22:26.04 | dilvie | is it common for organists to manipulate the stops to modulate a one-handed passage? |
| 22:26.41 | findlay | usually you have presets mapped to buttons just above the keyboards or pedals |
| 22:27.08 | dilvie | I've never had any organ training, but I do use tricks with the pedals on a piano to modulate the sound of certain passages.. |
| 22:27.39 | findlay | there's also a crescendo pedal that adds or removes ranks |
| 22:28.01 | findlay | of course on modern consoles, they have complete customization ability |
| 22:28.08 | hans | dilvie: they certainly do that, although probably not ordinarily in bach music |
| 22:28.26 | findlay | like which stops to add in what order and on what keyboards on the crescendo pedal |
| 22:28.37 | findlay | which stops to map to which keyboard, etc. |
| 22:28.43 | hans | changing stops happens all the time, but used as a sort of modulation would be a more modern usage |
| 22:29.29 | dilvie | hans: you're familiar with the Roland TB-303? |
| 22:29.30 | findlay | usually all stops can be coupled to the great keyboard and the pedals |
| 22:29.53 | dilvie | it was supposed to be used as a bassline jam synth for guitar players and the like |
| 22:30.23 | hans | not really, but go on |
| 22:30.41 | dilvie | within a very short period, people figured out that it sounded really cool to twist the knobs (which control the timbre of the instrument) in realtime, rather than just using them as settings. |
| 22:31.11 | dilvie | that gave birth to acid house, which eventually gave birth to trance |
| 22:31.44 | hans | cool. yeah on most organs stops are on or off |
| 22:31.53 | hans | but hammond organs had a slider system |
| 22:32.35 | dilvie | you can hear an early example of the effect on "Voodoo Ray", by A Guy Called Gerald -- arguably, the song that sparked the acid house movement. |
| 22:32.38 | hans | i've been to a little catholic church that had a hammond organ. it was kind of funny |
| 22:33.22 | findlay | did you know knuth plays the organ? |
| 22:33.26 | dilvie | http://www.discogs.com/artist/A+Guy+Called+Gerald |
| 22:34.28 | dilvie | I need to find a coder to write a simple vst plugin |
| 22:35.22 | dilvie | the plugin is designed to give musicians fine-grained control over the Haas effect |
| 22:35.30 | dilvie | in order to create convincing stereo soundscapes. |
| 22:35.47 | dilvie | hans: do you think that would be a project you'd like to tackle? |
| 22:35.58 | hans | sure |
| 22:36.05 | hans | you got the algorithm and math already I assume? |
| 22:36.42 | dilvie | well, "algorithm" is a bit of a stretch. =) |
| 22:37.01 | hans | I'm not familiar with the VST API - is it something I could do as a LADSPA plugin and then later extract the code and slap it in a VST tempalte? |
| 22:37.12 | dilvie | the heart of the effect is to play one channel (right or left) a few ms ahead of the other |
| 22:37.29 | dilvie | and/or detune one channel very slightly (a few cents) |
| 22:37.34 | hans | a simple algo is still an algo. ;-) |
| 22:38.12 | dilvie | so, if you know how to create a small delay, and change the playback frequency, you're golden. |
| 22:38.41 | findlay | can't you just take a mono track and pan it slightly to the left or right? |
| 22:39.08 | hans | I think the idea is to take an existing stereo track and turn the knob in realtime |
| 22:39.16 | findlay | but that doesn't take into account the delay that would happen in real life, I guess |
| 22:39.29 | hans | I'm not sure off-hand how you detune, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard |
| 22:39.32 | dilvie | findlay: No. I mean, you can, and it will sound like it's coming more from the left or right, but that doesn't create the same effect as real TDI |
| 22:39.58 | dilvie | actually, the idea is to make the stereo field sound more natural. |
| 22:40.08 | hans | I'll do it, but the catch is I don't have windows |
| 22:40.16 | dilvie | In real life, when you hear a sound, it tends to hit one ear a milisecond or two before it hits the other |
| 22:40.32 | hans | actually, this realtime dsp class may need windows for programming the things, so I might have to dig it out of a drawer and put it on an old box, in which case I will have windows |
| 22:41.30 | hans | but we can probably work something out. or maybe I could compile it at school |
| 22:41.31 | dilvie | hans: I can give you detailed specifications, and include audio samples and wave images of the effect in action |
| 22:42.19 | hans | hm, looks like sndobj can be used to make a vst plugin fairly straightforwardly |
| 22:42.30 | hans | and I've been meaning to give sndobj a try |
| 22:42.41 | hans | so this would be perfect. send me the specs |
| 22:42.41 | hans | hans@fugal.net |
| 22:42.48 | dilvie | awesome. |
| 22:43.45 | dilvie | hans: will do. I'll be busy most of today, but I'll try to get to it very soon. =) |
| 22:44.04 | findlay | sweet, konqueror has vi keybindings (: |
| 22:44.48 | dilvie | hans: you wouldn't mind releasing the code (minus vst headers, which are proprietary) under an open-source license, would you? =) |
| 22:44.56 | hans | naturally |
| 22:45.14 | hans | and if there's not a ladspa plugin doing this already I'll make one of those too |
| 22:45.20 | dilvie | I didn't think so.. just making sure. |
| 22:45.32 | hans | if there is, and license permits, I might steal that code. ;-) |
| 22:45.43 | dilvie | AFAIK, there is no plugin that gives the kind of fine-grained control I'm after. |
| 22:46.47 | hans | is this close? |
| 22:46.47 | hans | http://tap-plugins.sourceforge.net/ladspa/echo.html |
| 22:46.48 | brac | [TAP-plugins] |
| 22:47.00 | dilvie | the haas effect works best with 0 - 30 ms delays, a few cents of detune, and a tiny bit of lpf (you should be able to find a very simple low-pass filter easily) |
| 22:47.46 | dilvie | hans: similar. |
| 22:47.51 | dilvie | hans: not quite the same, though |
| 22:48.26 | hans | cool. well I'll look for those specs |
| 22:49.33 | dilvie | hans: you'll note in that plugin that there's no detune or lpf |
| 22:49.53 | dilvie | and the haas delay is into the hundreds of ms at a very low slider setting |
| 22:50.11 | dilvie | which shows a misunderstanding of what the haas effect actually is. |
| 22:50.19 | dilvie | haas doesn't work beyond 45 ms |
| 22:50.49 | hans | i see |
| 22:51.00 | dilvie | the ear stops hearing the echo as a part of the original sound, and starts to hear it as an echo, instead |
| 22:51.03 | dilvie | which is not what we want. |
| 22:58.32 | hans | looks like there's an sdk for 2.3 and 2.0 |
| 22:58.36 | hans | do you care which? |
| 22:58.42 | hans | (version of VST) |
| 23:06.03 | dilvie | hans: sent you a simple description |
| 23:06.20 | dilvie | I'm not sure what the differences are. |
| 23:08.57 | dilvie | One thing that might change is the value of the lpf attenuation |
| 23:09.04 | dilvie | it might be better to go up to 6 db per octave |
| 23:09.08 | dilvie | but I'm not sure |
| 23:09.23 | dilvie | I'll have to actually get a plugin and experiment with it. |
| 23:09.57 | hans | values are easy to change |
| 23:13.19 | hans | dilvie: is it much harder to position sound in 2- or 3-D? |
| 23:49.26 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@71-33-210-187.hlrn.qwest.net) |