| 00:00.29 | Bradipo | It takes a lot to fill up as much bandwidth as we have. |
| 00:01.46 | sjansen | Is it huring anyone other than SCO? |
| 00:03.25 | Jayce^ | no, the last ones all killed the other server at viawest.. this time it's not touching them |
| 00:04.17 | Bradipo | Well it didn't really kill much of anything except the network. |
| 00:04.32 | Bradipo | It wasn't hurting anyone else but SCO that I'm aware of. |
| 00:05.35 | Bradipo | Once we dropped the IPs off the Internet it wasn't hurting anyone except possibly the networks of the hosts involved. |
| 00:05.39 | Jayce^ | the last ones killed enough network to take most other systems at viawest offline |
| 00:06.25 | Bradipo | There should be some more press coming out. |
| 00:06.39 | Bradipo | Well, not other systems. |
| 00:06.41 | Bradipo | Our other systems. |
| 00:06.59 | Bradipo | But yes, it killed it enough to deny access to other systems on our network. |
| 00:07.04 | Bradipo | Networks rather. |
| 00:07.25 | Jayce^ | well, it killed eclipse hostings servers, and infogenix's boxes too I know |
| 00:07.30 | Bradipo | Really? |
| 00:07.32 | Bradipo | I wasn't aware of that. |
| 00:07.34 | Jayce^ | but not this time |
| 00:07.34 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 00:07.38 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. |
| 00:07.39 | Bradipo | Oh, you mean last time? |
| 00:07.49 | Bradipo | You mean back in August? |
| 00:07.51 | Jayce^ | should ask mike about that first one.. they fed him some serious lines. |
| 00:07.59 | Bradipo | Yeah, back in August it affected a lot more than just us. |
| 00:08.07 | Jayce^ | this is the first one they haven't had repercussions from |
| 00:08.16 | Jayce^ | august was by far the worst though |
| 00:08.20 | Bradipo | Yeah, measures have been put in place since then. |
| 00:08.47 | Bradipo | I'm surprised that folks believe this kind of thing is fabricated when we have testimony from our own neighbors. :-) |
| 00:09.32 | Bradipo | It's like a neighborhood brawl: see those pellets in the side of my home officer... |
| 00:09.32 | Jayce^ | no, I think that's why some were questioning... this is the first one they haven't felt |
| 00:10.08 | Bradipo | Like I said, measures have been put in place since then. |
| 00:11.19 | Bradipo | I feel bad for the ``experts'' at groklaw. |
| 00:11.30 | Bradipo | They are putting their expertise on the line when they don't know any of the facts. |
| 00:12.00 | Bradipo | But now I'm probably saying more than I should about this whole issue so I'll shutup now. :-) |
| 00:12.19 | sjansen | Nah, we won't tell anyone. |
| 00:12.34 | sjansen | (Dang, how do I copy and paste from XChat again?) |
| 00:12.44 | Jayce^ | highlight, middle-click :) |
| 00:13.03 | Bradipo | I guess I should be more careful, anyone of you could be a sell out to IBM. ;-) |
| 00:13.26 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, still waiting for my check for the protest :) |
| 00:13.57 | jakea | we got paid for the protest? |
| 00:14.10 | Jayce^ | according to darl :) |
| 00:14.15 | jakea | oh ya, IBM was fueling it |
| 00:14.30 | Bradipo | It was a good protest. |
| 00:14.35 | jakea | ya, it was fun |
| 00:14.39 | Jayce^ | it was fun.. nice, clean.. |
| 00:14.41 | Bradipo | I don't recall ever having seen a better one except when I was in Italy on my mission. |
| 00:14.49 | Bradipo | Italians really know how to protest. |
| 00:14.50 | Jayce^ | made our point.. got some news.. |
| 00:14.57 | jakea | I loved soren's posters |
| 00:15.30 | jakea | and the glory! DON'T FORGET THE GLORY WE GOT! |
| 00:15.34 | jakea | ;) |
| 00:18.05 | Newsome | We won't forget the glory, Bob. |
| 00:18.23 | Newsome | We did it all so that we could all be rich and famous! |
| 00:19.26 | jakea | and get on slashdot |
| 00:21.32 | Jayce^ | hey, I'm still mad that my report of the protest pics didnt' get accepted... the official page man.. |
| 00:21.46 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~kip@67.50.41.115) |
| 00:23.57 | Newsome | later, all. |
| 00:31.30 | Bradipo | I see, everyone nabbing the inside scoop and running to the press eh? ;-) |
| 00:31.36 | Bradipo | First Newsome, then jsmith... |
| 00:31.41 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 00:32.07 | Jayce^ | just consider yourself SCO's last touch with reality Bradipo :D |
| 00:32.23 | Bradipo | I don't know about that. |
| 00:32.42 | Bradipo | As Yoda would say, ``There is... another.'' |
| 00:33.00 | jakea | heh |
| 00:33.01 | Jayce^ | one other brain hasn't left yet then :) that's good.. |
| 00:33.30 | Bradipo | Hmm, I haven't seen or heard anything about III... |
| 00:33.42 | Bradipo | Anyone know when it is due to hit the silver screen? |
| 00:33.51 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, spoilers on /. yesterday.. (or was it the day before) |
| 00:34.08 | Bradipo | Hmm, sadly enough, with all these attacks I don't have time to read /. anymore. ;-) |
| 00:34.36 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, just post a message about the sco attack, and I'll mod you up :) |
| 00:34.49 | jakea | May 2005 |
| 00:35.57 | jakea | hopefully what's his name had some acting lessons in between movies |
| 00:36.47 | Bradipo | Oh, I rarely post there anymore. |
| 00:37.03 | Bradipo | Too much anti-SCO stuff... |
| 00:37.39 | Bradipo | I heard groklaw got the /. effect, today. |
| 00:37.55 | Bradipo | I think they did it to themselves to make a point. :-) |
| 00:37.57 | Jayce^ | when haven't they.. they get that a lot |
| 00:38.09 | Bradipo | Oh really? |
| 00:38.16 | Bradipo | I don't read it often enough to know it's down patterns. |
| 00:38.20 | Jayce^ | do a bunch of completely dynamic php on every page, and what do you expect? |
| 00:38.21 | Bradipo | I suppose netcraft would know though. |
| 00:38.29 | Bradipo | True. |
| 00:38.34 | Bradipo | Better have serious hardware. |
| 00:38.55 | Jayce^ | better do some caching/static writeout.. makes a huge difference |
| 00:38.57 | Bradipo | And a decent RDBMS like postgresql. |
| 00:39.03 | Jayce^ | or mysql :) |
| 00:39.26 | Bradipo | I really wanted to come to the spam fest last night. |
| 00:39.28 | sjansen | They're using mysql. |
| 00:39.33 | Bradipo | But I was preoccupied. |
| 00:39.39 | sjansen | Really should be cacheing/writing static files. |
| 00:40.07 | Jayce^ | sjansen, yes, and tune things.. |
| 00:40.12 | Bradipo | And they're running linux which is vulnerable to SYN floods as shown by our website. ;-) |
| 00:40.15 | Jayce^ | the big deal is the static writeout |
| 00:40.28 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, we even did some small amount of politics :) coulda chipped in a bunch |
| 00:40.41 | Bradipo | Well, I hate politics surrounding spam. |
| 00:40.54 | Bradipo | I understand that folks don't like it when email just ``disappears'' |
| 00:40.55 | *** join/#utah Josh222| (~Josh222|@c-24-2-99-61.client.comcast.net) |
| 00:41.15 | Jayce^ | but I love SA.. too cool.. |
| 00:41.18 | Bradipo | And part of the problem is that most MTAs aren't designed robustly enough. |
| 00:41.35 | Bradipo | But a discussion of replacing SMTP would have been nifty. |
| 00:41.57 | Bradipo | I can't wait for something like IM2000 comes along. |
| 00:42.09 | Bradipo | But alas, replacing SMTP is akin to switching to IPv6. |
| 00:42.47 | Jayce^ | even more, at least a definitive standard is there for IPv6... |
| 00:43.23 | Bradipo | True. |
| 00:43.54 | Bradipo | I would rather have fiber to my home first. |
| 00:57.36 | sjansen | Does anyone know a phone number for Evan? |
| 01:07.59 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@dsc04-wei-ut-205-186-82-250.rasserver.net) |
| 01:18.58 | brailsmt | sjansen: which evan? will any evan do? |
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| 01:42.54 | Hanuman | irssi doesn't support unicode - darn it |
| 01:44.44 | *** join/#utah Hanuman_unicodem (~jstayii@pool-141-152-55-93.RICH.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:46.01 | Hanuman_unicodem | สวัสดีครับ |
| 01:46.23 | Hanuman | asdf |
| 01:46.28 | Hanuman | much better |
| 01:46.48 | Hanuman | can you see the Thai? |
| 01:47.17 | byron | wow, I saw a whole bunch of meaningless characters |
| 01:47.28 | byron | but I'm not using a unicode font |
| 01:47.43 | Hanuman | yeah - you probably need a Thai font |
| 01:47.48 | *** part/#utah Hanuman_unicodem (~jstayii@pool-141-152-55-93.RICH.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:48.24 | Hanuman | although irssi showed a couple of the characters I typed |
| 01:48.37 | Hanuman | the first 3 in irssi were Thai |
| 01:49.18 | Hanuman | Does Jared Betteridge attend UUG mtgs? |
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| 01:53.53 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 01:54.27 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 01:55.11 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 02:44.00 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 02:45.04 | byron | howdy frank |
| 02:46.42 | Newsome | hi |
| 02:47.35 | Newsome | looking rather dead right now... |
| 02:48.33 | byron | just a little... |
| 02:49.34 | Newsome | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:56.36 | byron | what? they really must be smoking crack. I thought their ISP confirmed it wasn't a DoS |
| 02:56.59 | Jayce^ | hundreds of thousands in damages 'eh? |
| 02:57.05 | byron | Jayce^: I wanted to go, but I was forced to spend all evening staring at HP-UX |
| 02:57.13 | Jayce^ | bah.. wuss |
| 02:58.08 | byron | Jayce^: I just finished the lab report |
| 02:59.14 | Jayce^ | see, plug would have been a great way to refresh the mind |
| 03:00.10 | Jayce^ | wow, just read some review of Rotk that hates it.... |
| 03:00.18 | Jayce^ | of course, the review hates jackson totally.. |
| 03:00.25 | Jayce^ | and apparently hasnt' read the books.. |
| 03:00.46 | Jayce^ | "it is a tediously modern film, in that its story is divested of nuance, and played instead with the kinetic predictability of a video game in which the characters travel through various levels of torment only to face new and unimagined perils." |
| 03:02.14 | Jayce^ | "the ring, a tacky piece of jewellery which seems to bring out the worst in men." |
| 03:17.40 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net) |
| 04:04.39 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@ts46-01-qdr2863.gpass.or.charter.com) |
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| 04:34.35 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@c-24-10-177-187.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:00.29 | *** join/#utah tyce (~tyce@ts64.vps2.iserver.net) |
| 05:00.39 | tyce | any sendmail gurus in here? |
| 05:04.22 | Jayce^ | nope.. |
| 05:04.28 | Jayce^ | mike handy on the list is one though |
| 05:04.34 | Jayce^ | fozz is a bit of one too |
| 05:04.40 | Tenebram_ | what about apache sem-gurus? |
| 05:04.44 | *** join/#utah philhans (~philhans@128.187.243.21) |
| 05:04.57 | Jayce^ | sem? :) |
| 05:05.05 | Tenebram_ | semi, even |
| 05:05.18 | Tenebram_ | It's so rebellious! |
| 05:05.23 | Tenebram_ | I just don't know what to do with it. |
| 05:05.27 | Jayce^ | depends on what you're asking about.. I might have a clue |
| 05:05.44 | brailsmt_ | \quit |
| 05:05.46 | Tenebram | I'm trung to get user directories to work |
| 05:05.54 | Jayce^ | mod_userdir |
| 05:05.58 | Tenebram | yeah |
| 05:06.14 | philhans | does anyone know if the ports that bittorrent uses are blocked by the byu firewall |
| 05:06.28 | Jayce^ | what question... |
| 05:06.50 | Jayce^ | dunno, hans had trouble with it some.. |
| 05:06.58 | philhans | yea i know |
| 05:07.06 | philhans | but never got an answer |
| 05:07.44 | Jayce^ | Tenebram, what do you need to know about it? |
| 05:07.58 | Tenebram | What file do I put the UserDir directives in? |
| 05:08.30 | Tenebram | I've been working on it for half an hour or so, and I just get 403s |
| 05:08.36 | Jayce^ | you mean httpd.conf ? |
| 05:08.50 | Jayce^ | # |
| 05:08.50 | Jayce^ | # UserDir: The name of the directory which is appended onto a user's home |
| 05:08.50 | Jayce^ | # directory if a ~user request is received. |
| 05:08.50 | Jayce^ | # |
| 05:08.50 | Jayce^ | <IfModule mod_userdir.c> |
| 05:08.51 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:08.53 | Jayce^ | </IfModule> |
| 05:08.57 | Jayce^ | # |
| 05:08.59 | Jayce^ | # Control access to UserDir directories. The following is an example |
| 05:09.01 | Jayce^ | # for a site where these directories are restricted to read-only. |
| 05:09.03 | Jayce^ | # |
| 05:09.05 | Jayce^ | <Directory /home/*/public_html> |
| 05:09.07 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.09 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.11 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.13 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.17 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.19 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.21 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.23 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.25 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.27 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:09.29 | Jayce^ | </Directory> |
| 05:09.31 | Jayce^ | that's in my conf... just modify your limitation to taste |
| 05:10.45 | Tenebram | hrmm... |
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| 05:13.25 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@128.187.252.215) |
| 05:15.28 | Jayce^ | that help? |
| 05:18.49 | Bradipo | http://news.com.com/2100-7355_3-5120706.html?tag=nefd_top |
| 05:18.49 | Bradipo | http://www.cmpnetasia.com/ViewArt.cfm?Artid=22495&Catid=3&subcat=50 |
| 05:18.49 | Bradipo | http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031211S0016 |
| 05:18.49 | Bradipo | http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/32372.html |
| 05:18.56 | Bradipo | You heard it here first. ;-) |
| 05:21.21 | Tenebram | no, actually |
| 05:21.52 | Bradipo | Bummer, someone beat me to it? |
| 05:22.05 | Bradipo | Oh, never mind... |
| 05:23.22 | Tenebram | now that's odd... I'm getting different behavioe for different users... |
| 05:23.35 | Tenebram | behavior, even |
| 05:23.42 | emcnabb | Bradipo, so, you work at SCO? |
| 05:24.55 | Bradipo | I thought everyone in here knew... |
| 05:24.57 | Bradipo | But yes. |
| 05:25.23 | Jayce^ | Tenebram, what's it doing now? |
| 05:25.58 | emcnabb | Bradipo, I know you can't say too much, but how do most employees feel about everything that has happened in the last year |
| 05:26.20 | emcnabb | (if you've had this conversation on #utah before I didn't know, and sorry) |
| 05:27.16 | Tenebram | for one user I get a connection refused, and for the other I get a 403 |
| 05:27.36 | Tenebram | let's try a third... |
| 05:28.08 | Jayce^ | hrmm.. on the forbidden, is it straight html? script? permissions funky? |
| 05:29.15 | Bradipo | emcnabb: Sorry, got a phone call here... |
| 05:29.44 | Tenebram | just straight html |
| 05:29.51 | Bradipo | I don't really discuss most employees feelings with them to be honest. |
| 05:29.58 | Tenebram | and I get a 403 no matter what type of file I ask for |
| 05:30.06 | Jayce^ | what are the permissions on the file? |
| 05:30.11 | Bradipo | I just fix their mail problems and handle phone calls in the middle of the night when we get DoSed. :-) |
| 05:30.30 | Bradipo | But in general, everyone there is behind Darl as far as I know. |
| 05:30.31 | Tenebram | -rw-r--r-- |
| 05:31.18 | Bradipo | I don't feel I am qualified one way or the other to know about the legal issues involved in all this. |
| 05:31.19 | Tenebram | for the file and the public_html directory |
| 05:31.45 | Bradipo | I think it's entirely possible that IBM has done something wrong somewhere. |
| 05:31.55 | Jayce^ | Tenebram, give the directory itself execute permission for everything.. |
| 05:32.03 | Tenebram | 'kay |
| 05:32.06 | Jayce^ | not the file, just the dir |
| 05:32.15 | emcnabb | Bradipo, how do you feel about how SCO has gone about their case? |
| 05:32.22 | Bradipo | I don't know what, don't know how, but I have to believe that my superiors wouldn't go into a major legal battle without having some kind of evidence. |
| 05:32.48 | Bradipo | I think for the most part we have done things in a reasonable manner. |
| 05:32.58 | Bradipo | Again, I just work in IT, so I don't know everything about what goes on. |
| 05:33.01 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, I stopped having faith like that in any utah *company*.. (been there, done that, got screwed) |
| 05:33.08 | Bradipo | Certainly there have probably been blunders and mistakes. |
| 05:33.21 | Bradipo | Jayce^: I didn't say I had faith. ;-) |
| 05:33.30 | emcnabb | Bradipo, it seems like McBride has always been an ambulence chaser |
| 05:33.35 | emcnabb | so he took this one too |
| 05:33.55 | emcnabb | I think IBM could have done wrong too |
| 05:34.11 | Bradipo | I guess in short, I really don't know one way or the other who is in the right. |
| 05:34.22 | Bradipo | I haven't seen the evidence. |
| 05:34.29 | Jayce^ | I think IBM *could* have done wrong, but they are hard pressed to do that type of wrong, and especially on the scale that sco says... |
| 05:34.37 | Bradipo | I haven't been privy to any information that would sway me one way or the other. |
| 05:34.40 | emcnabb | but at the first hearing SCO pretty much said they didn't have much evidence (i.e., they needed IBM to tell all the crimes they commited) |
| 05:35.00 | Bradipo | The way I see it... |
| 05:35.16 | Bradipo | If we're wrong, then a lot of people have been fooled, including employees. |
| 05:35.33 | emcnabb | Bradipo, it's one thing for them to sue IBM, its another to try destroy the open source movement |
| 05:35.39 | emcnabb | that's what they're doing |
| 05:35.43 | emcnabb | attacking the GPL |
| 05:35.46 | Bradipo | I don't know if that was the original intent. |
| 05:36.06 | Bradipo | I personally prefer the BSD license over GPL. :-) |
| 05:36.19 | emcnabb | Bradipo, I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you personally :-) |
| 05:36.25 | Bradipo | I don't feel that way at all. |
| 05:36.46 | emcnabb | my problem with the BSD licenses is people can take the code and run |
| 05:36.54 | Bradipo | I don't have a problem with that. |
| 05:36.58 | Bradipo | I think BSD is more free than GPL. |
| 05:37.08 | emcnabb | in a sense it is |
| 05:37.09 | Bradipo | GPL is less free because it restricts what you can and can't do with it. |
| 05:37.19 | emcnabb | but the commutity doesn't grow |
| 05:37.21 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, yeah, I hope that despite our dislike (now) of your employer, you do know your just one of the #utah/plug/uug/foo guys |
| 05:37.24 | emcnabb | that's why BSD never took off |
| 05:37.29 | Bradipo | Well, it doesn't force the community to grow. |
| 05:37.46 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, but that is an option that some prefer... I like having both available (plus similar ones) |
| 05:37.57 | emcnabb | it gives it an environment where it can though |
| 05:38.00 | Bradipo | I wouldn't be here if I thought I wasn't wanted. :-) |
| 05:38.13 | emcnabb | Bradipo, so what do you do at SCO |
| 05:38.16 | emcnabb | IT stuff? |
| 05:38.23 | Bradipo | I'm not so sure that's the reason why BSD didn't take off like linux. |
| 05:38.27 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 05:38.35 | Bradipo | system/network administrator. |
| 05:38.58 | Bradipo | I'm one of the clueless folks that tripped over the webserver's ethernet cable and then told my boss it was a DoS. |
| 05:39.04 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 05:39.05 | emcnabb | people contribute to Linux because they want it to stay in the community |
| 05:39.06 | emcnabb | haha |
| 05:39.11 | Bradipo | Even though I have no access to the webserver whatsoever. |
| 05:39.32 | emcnabb | BSD license is much more friendly to businesses |
| 05:39.35 | emcnabb | that's a fact |
| 05:39.39 | Bradipo | Yes, it is. |
| 05:40.23 | Bradipo | Yeah, there are different purposes for the GPL. |
| 05:40.31 | Bradipo | I'm not saying that it shouldn't be an option. |
| 05:40.34 | emcnabb | yeah |
| 05:40.42 | emcnabb | we can all get along :-) |
| 05:40.45 | Bradipo | But I think too many companies jump on the GPL bandwagon without fully realizing the implications. |
| 05:41.13 | emcnabb | for example, it is nice that everyone was able to share the BSD TCP/IP stack for compatibities sake |
| 05:41.19 | Bradipo | Even I don't truly understand all the intricacies of the GPL. |
| 05:41.29 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 05:41.29 | emcnabb | yeah, it is complicated |
| 05:41.56 | emcnabb | but most licenses are :-) |
| 05:41.59 | Bradipo | My biggest concern is not whether or not we are right, but where will I be if we win/lose. :-) |
| 05:42.05 | emcnabb | haha |
| 05:42.07 | emcnabb | very true |
| 05:42.12 | Jayce^ | well, I think it's like the recent plug discussion... I by no means am a FSF freak.. I do prefer the gpl in a lot of situations.. |
| 05:42.21 | Jayce^ | but I started in bsd (unixwise), and still enjoy it |
| 05:42.33 | Jayce^ | and by no means think it's less |
| 05:42.39 | emcnabb | I do think that the general industry has a different opinion about SCO now |
| 05:42.40 | Bradipo | I started out with linux (for personal use). |
| 05:42.46 | Bradipo | And have been moving more towards BSD. |
| 05:42.48 | emcnabb | I use OpenBSD on my firewall :-) |
| 05:42.50 | Jayce^ | (except for multithreaded apps on smp... ugh) |
| 05:42.55 | Bradipo | I prefer the simple setup and administration of BSD. |
| 05:43.06 | Bradipo | Me too. |
| 05:43.21 | Bradipo | OpenBSD makes a great firewall if you get the right hardware for it. |
| 05:43.39 | Bradipo | Again, use is the key word. |
| 05:43.51 | emcnabb | but whenever I use a Unix workstation of any type I really remember how much easier linux is (in general) |
| 05:44.03 | Bradipo | I would probably prefer linux over OpenBSD for a webserver and database server. |
| 05:44.03 | emcnabb | my firewall is a sparcstation 5 |
| 05:44.16 | Bradipo | I remember you saying that. |
| 05:44.18 | Bradipo | Very nice. |
| 05:44.26 | emcnabb | I really like openbsd as a fireall because there is nothing running :-) |
| 05:44.28 | Bradipo | I'm thinking of getting an OpenBrick-E |
| 05:44.34 | Bradipo | Right, me too. |
| 05:44.38 | Bradipo | Nothing but firewalling and SSH. |
| 05:44.52 | Bradipo | Unfortunately that OpenSSH has had a few security glitches. |
| 05:44.58 | Bradipo | s/tely/te/ |
| 05:45.36 | emcnabb | it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years |
| 05:45.57 | Bradipo | Oh I agree completely. |
| 05:46.06 | philhans | what do most of you guys use as a wm? |
| 05:46.14 | Bradipo | WindowMaker |
| 05:46.23 | Bradipo | But I'm not most... |
| 05:46.27 | Bradipo | And can't speak for most. :-) |
| 05:46.32 | emcnabb | fluxbox |
| 05:46.41 | philhans | ive never actually tried windowmaker |
| 05:46.53 | Bradipo | It's lean and clean. |
| 05:46.55 | Tenebram | kahakai |
| 05:46.59 | philhans | i kinda like flux |
| 05:47.02 | Tenebram | kahakai is nice |
| 05:47.11 | Tenebram | I used to like flux, but then I tried openbox and liked it more |
| 05:47.14 | philhans | im really waiting for when e17 comes out |
| 05:47.18 | Tenebram | and then tried kahakai and liked it even more |
| 05:47.22 | philhans | its shaping up to be pretty sweet |
| 05:47.22 | Jayce^ | depends on which box.. |
| 05:47.29 | emcnabb | well, night all! |
| 05:47.29 | Jayce^ | KDE on my main station.. |
| 05:47.34 | Jayce^ | usually flux on the laptop |
| 05:48.07 | Tenebram | Hey, question: I've got a pagemaker document that I'm trying to convert to something more usable. |
| 05:48.18 | Tenebram | Know of any utilities I can use to open it? |
| 05:48.26 | Tenebram | I haven't been able to find anything that can import it |
| 05:48.36 | Jayce^ | Tenebram, did that fix your public_html problem? |
| 05:48.45 | Tenebram | nope |
| 05:48.53 | Tenebram | I've been screwing around with it for a while now. |
| 05:48.54 | Jayce^ | really? are you getting any errors in the log? |
| 05:48.55 | Tenebram | no luck |
| 05:49.11 | Jayce^ | really thought that execute bit would be the problem.. |
| 05:49.18 | Jayce^ | since apache would need it to read that dir |
| 05:49.26 | Tenebram | just permission denied errors |
| 05:49.35 | Jayce^ | what are the permissions now? |
| 05:49.37 | Bradipo | Tenebram: Did you try ImageMagick? |
| 05:49.43 | Jayce^ | and is the error stating the correct file? |
| 05:49.50 | Bradipo | To open the pagemaker document... |
| 05:50.14 | Tenebram | nope, haven't, thanks |
| 05:50.24 | Bradipo | You never know what ImageMagick can do sometimes. |
| 05:51.33 | Jayce^ | apparently that PC CLub place near the mall has a dvd player with divx support and more for $100 |
| 05:52.44 | Jayce^ | they have some 802.11 hardware free after rebate too |
| 05:52.51 | Jayce^ | might have to check that place out |
| 05:53.37 | Bradipo | You'll be glad to know that our mail server handled the DoS just fine. :-) |
| 05:53.49 | sjansen | Bradipo: So how come you guys are faking the whole Dos? I mean it is so _obviously_ a fake. Any company with as much money as SCO (after all, your a secret subsidiary of M$, aren't you?) should be able to sidestep some piddly like DDos. |
| 05:53.52 | Jayce^ | really? not according to that article? |
| 05:54.11 | Bradipo | The mail server didn't crash. |
| 05:54.16 | Bradipo | The network was full. |
| 05:54.25 | Bradipo | No data was getting anywhere because of it. |
| 05:54.28 | Jayce^ | the statement from the IT guy says the email didn't go.. |
| 05:54.30 | Jayce^ | ahh.. |
| 05:54.38 | Bradipo | Well, not in the first attack. |
| 05:54.49 | Jayce^ | thought you meant it kept serving fine during this attack.. |
| 05:54.51 | Bradipo | The second attack was directed right at the mail server. |
| 05:55.01 | Bradipo | It didn't affect the server, but it did chew up all our bandwidth. |
| 05:55.11 | Bradipo | Well, it served internally. :-) |
| 05:55.16 | Bradipo | And it didn't crash. |
| 05:55.40 | Bradipo | Of course I wouldn't expect any less than robustness from qmail. |
| 05:55.40 | Jayce^ | course not, it's linux :p |
| 05:55.49 | Jayce^ | anyways.. time to get some sleep |
| 05:56.07 | Bradipo | I should go too just in case we get hit with another DoS. |
| 05:57.00 | Bradipo | sjansen: are you quoting that from groklaw? |
| 05:57.47 | Bradipo | sjansen: Or do you still think it is a fake? |
| 05:57.51 | Tenebram | imagemagick won't handle it |
| 05:57.56 | Tenebram | mrrgle... |
| 05:58.06 | Bradipo | Tenebram: It was worth a shot, how about gimp? |
| 05:58.24 | Tenebram | hrmm... |
| 05:58.25 | Bradipo | If anyone in here thinks it is a fake, what would it take to convince you that it wasn't? |
| 05:59.00 | Tenebram | nope, gimp doesn't know what it is |
| 05:59.05 | sjansen | Bradipo: What do you think. ;-) |
| 05:59.14 | Tenebram | imagemagick complained about an FPX library though... |
| 05:59.17 | Bradipo | sjansen: I'm not sure really... |
| 05:59.26 | Tenebram | all I could find related to an fpx library is some old rpms on google |
| 05:59.52 | sjansen | Bradipo: I'd be willing to settle for 5% of any settlement or sale of SCO. |
| 05:59.57 | Bradipo | lol |
| 06:00.37 | sjansen | In fact, for a small cash advance of just $50,000 I'd be willing to publically state that I don't think it's a fake. |
| 06:01.01 | Bradipo | If you could track down who actually did it, I can almost guarantee that Darl would give you more than that. |
| 06:01.53 | Bradipo | I have seen two intelligent posts wrt DoS on groklaw. |
| 06:02.35 | Bradipo | Both of them were ignored. |
| 06:02.44 | sjansen | I think DoSing is stupid, immature, and underhanded. But at the same rate, it's hard for me to have any sympathy for SCO. |
| 06:03.10 | Bradipo | I can understand your point. |
| 06:03.16 | Bradipo | I don't think anyone is asking for sympathy. |
| 06:03.34 | Bradipo | Personally, I could care less if others think that it was a fake. |
| 06:03.38 | Bradipo | I know the facts. |
| 06:04.22 | Bradipo | It just goes to show me that the self-proclaimed experts go out of their way to look like fools. |
| 06:04.42 | Bradipo | SCO gets DoS'ed and suddenly everyone is an expert. |
| 06:05.11 | Bradipo | Have you read the comments on groklaw? |
| 06:05.40 | sjansen | Nah. I don't bother reading more than headlines most of the time. Takes too long to dig through the muck to find anything of value. |
| 06:06.20 | Bradipo | Well, that's part of the problem in my opinion. |
| 06:06.40 | Bradipo | All the smart folks like you just ignore it and that leaves the chaff to spew drivel. |
| 06:07.09 | Bradipo | So the blind lead the blind on a wild goose chase. |
| 06:07.15 | Bradipo | I'm not accusing you of anything mind you. :-) |
| 06:07.31 | Bradipo | Just stating my views. |
| 06:08.03 | Bradipo | If someone that actually knew something about DoS'es would read it they could instantly shed light on all the false doctrine, but they either refuse or don't care. |
| 06:08.11 | sjansen | Course not, just called me irresponsible. Accused me of leaving the noble underdogs like you to fend for themselves because I'm too good to share my wisdom. |
| 06:08.25 | sjansen | Well, I'll have you know it's my wisdom and nobody gonna make me share it. :-P |
| 06:09.03 | Bradipo | I read through all that muck and as I said before, there were two posts that were worth reading. |
| 06:09.19 | Bradipo | So I don't blame you for not reading it, but it was largly a technical discussion. |
| 06:09.30 | Bradipo | sjansen: If FSF and GPL have their way, you will share it. |
| 06:09.36 | sjansen | It's usually a losing fight to tell anyone something they don't want to hear. |
| 06:09.42 | Bradipo | I know. |
| 06:11.13 | sjansen | Watch it there, I need time to reconsider my opinion of the FSF but I still agree with the GPL. |
| 06:11.40 | Bradipo | Yeah, I knew about the FSF's opinions and hence have never been a big proponent. |
| 06:11.56 | Bradipo | But they are just as welcome to them as anyone else. |
| 06:12.16 | sjansen | One things for certain, I'm definetly not assigning any copyright to them. |
| 06:12.31 | Bradipo | Is that how they work? |
| 06:12.44 | Bradipo | You write the stuff and give them the copyright? |
| 06:13.12 | sjansen | They encourage people to assign copyright so that they are free to prosecute for any violation. "We'll worry about it so you don't have to." |
| 06:13.27 | Bradipo | Interesting. |
| 06:13.45 | Bradipo | There's another issue wrt BSD vs GPL. |
| 06:14.56 | sjansen | Hardly. You still haven't justified the BSD being "freer". |
| 06:15.35 | sjansen | That's like saying anarchy is more free than a democratic government. |
| 06:15.56 | Tenebram | Hey, wow, my uncle's online for once. |
| 06:16.01 | Bradipo | Does there exist a democratic government? |
| 06:16.07 | Tenebram | He's one of the head project managers at Microsoft. |
| 06:16.26 | Tenebram | Now I just have to remember what I was going to ask him... |
| 06:16.31 | sjansen | Well, not to speak of since the greek city states. |
| 06:16.47 | Tenebram | Anyone else have any surrogate questions? |
| 06:16.55 | sjansen | But republicanism is something of an approximation. |
| 06:17.30 | Bradipo | I guess that depends on your definition of free. |
| 06:17.56 | Bradipo | BSD is freedom that benefits the recipient of the code. |
| 06:18.10 | Bradipo | GPL is freedom that benefits soley the code. |
| 06:18.15 | sjansen | I guess that depends on if you recognize that certain rights must be limited to extend freedom to all. |
| 06:18.36 | Bradipo | Or rather, GPL takes away freedom from the developer and frees the code of any strings. |
| 06:19.02 | sjansen | BSD benefits the immediate recipient of the code. Under certain conditions, it benefits all recipients of the resulting software. |
| 06:19.28 | sjansen | GPL ensures that all recipients of the software recieve at least minimal freedoms. |
| 06:19.43 | Bradipo | Which are? |
| 06:20.13 | Bradipo | I think GPL takes freedom away from the developer and gives it to the code. |
| 06:20.32 | Bradipo | It's like taking a trapped animal and setting it free. |
| 06:20.40 | sjansen | Tenebram: Why don't you ask if Bradipo can modify the Windows TCP/IP stack if he asks nicely. |
| 06:20.58 | Bradipo | Hehe... |
| 06:21.17 | Bradipo | Why would I want to modify the Windows TCP/IP stack? |
| 06:21.25 | Tenebram | That's what I was just going to ask. |
| 06:21.29 | Tenebram | why? |
| 06:21.29 | Bradipo | It's their product, they can fix it. |
| 06:21.43 | Bradipo | If it's broken it looks bad on them. |
| 06:21.56 | Bradipo | Or it looks bad on everyone else, depending on your point of view. :-) |
| 06:21.58 | Tenebram | As a public service, maybe? |
| 06:22.03 | sjansen | Oh, I don't know. To disguise the fingerprint, add syncookies, meet some other business need. |
| 06:22.34 | tensai | sjansen: make sure you add comments about netscape engineers being weenies |
| 06:23.01 | Bradipo | If I have a business need and Windows doesn't meet it, I will seek alternatives. |
| 06:23.11 | Bradipo | If they are unable to make their system fit my needs. |
| 06:23.32 | sjansen | The point is, when you say that if "takes freedom away from the developer" what you're actually saying is it prevents the developer from taking away freedom from future developers. |
| 06:23.53 | Tenebram | It's cool having him for an uncle. I see microsoft hardware ads or on the news or something and I can say "Hey, my uncle designed that" |
| 06:23.55 | Bradipo | Well yes and no. |
| 06:23.59 | Bradipo | That's one way to see my point. |
| 06:24.02 | Tenebram | Apparently one of the base stations he did was on cnn a while ago |
| 06:24.08 | Tenebram | don't know why though... |
| 06:24.09 | Bradipo | What I'm trying to say is that it makes the code an agent unto itself. |
| 06:24.25 | Tenebram | and I can't believe how dirty this keyboard is... |
| 06:24.28 | Bradipo | That no one can take advantage of. |
| 06:24.32 | sjansen | If anything, BSD is what frees the code. It enables it to be used as widely as possible. |
| 06:24.49 | sjansen | GPL is about restraining the code to hopefully prevent a tradegy of the commons. |
| 06:25.05 | Bradipo | Hehe, I see your point there. |
| 06:25.16 | Bradipo | We clearly are looking at freedom from different angles. |
| 06:25.41 | Bradipo | I would also agree that BSD makes the code free. |
| 06:25.45 | sjansen | Bradipo: The problem with people who chant that BSD is better than GPL is that they're all extremists. |
| 06:25.51 | Bradipo | But not free to itself, but free for use by others as they will. |
| 06:26.03 | Bradipo | I never denied that I wasn't eccentric. |
| 06:26.04 | sjansen | Just because it can't be used in proprietary software, you make it sound like it can't be used at all. |
| 06:26.06 | Bradipo | :-) |
| 06:26.14 | Bradipo | I didn't say that. |
| 06:26.26 | Bradipo | I said that most companies getting into GPL don't really know what they are getting into. |
| 06:26.43 | Bradipo | At least with BSD the only thing they need worry about is whether or not they gave due credit to the original author. |
| 06:26.52 | sjansen | " What I'm trying to say is that it makes the code an agent unto itself. That no one can take advantage of." |
| 06:27.18 | Bradipo | That's right. |
| 06:27.34 | Bradipo | None is allowed to leverage (or take advantage of the code). |
| 06:27.43 | Bradipo | Anything they do must be allowed to be set free as well. |
| 06:28.13 | Bradipo | It can be used. |
| 06:28.18 | Bradipo | People use it all the time. |
| 06:29.00 | Bradipo | Also, as long as you don't release a program derived from GPL, you can use it internally without restrictions. |
| 06:29.09 | sjansen | I think it comes down to, there's no such this as "this is freer" or "this is better". It's a waste of time discuss. |
| 06:29.14 | Tenebram | My uncle's an interesting fellow. He honestly believes that open source software, whatever the license, is basically just a fad and it won't work for much longer. |
| 06:29.43 | Bradipo | Possibly, but I think companies and individuals need to be aware of the issues at hand. |
| 06:29.44 | sjansen | Without modifiers, the phrase has no meaning and inevitably ends up in self-defeating arguments. |
| 06:29.48 | Tenebram | Because it gives people no incentive to write software, I believe is one of his points. |
| 06:30.12 | Bradipo | Tenebram: That's obviously debatable... :-) |
| 06:30.19 | sjansen | Tenebram: So he thinks all problems will magically disappear without greed to motivate their "discovery"? |
| 06:30.36 | Bradipo | But from a business standpoint he is entirely correct. |
| 06:30.43 | Tenebram | He thinks that problems won't be solved unless people are payed to solve them. |
| 06:31.00 | sjansen | No, he isn't. As long as there's an itch to scratch, software will be written. |
| 06:31.01 | Bradipo | Again, he is right to a certain degree. |
| 06:31.26 | sjansen | No, he's only right that useless software will wither on the vine. |
| 06:31.35 | Bradipo | If I installed linux on my mom's computer, where would she get support if I wasn't around? |
| 06:31.54 | sjansen | From the neighbor kid like everyone else. ;-) |
| 06:32.07 | sjansen | See, now you're talking about support. |
| 06:32.08 | Bradipo | Who knows next to nothing about linux and would more likely jack it up than fix it. |
| 06:32.38 | Tenebram | I bet that I could set up a linux box at my family's house that wouldn't need much of any support at all. |
| 06:32.45 | sjansen | Yes, extremely polished software will be harder to come by. |
| 06:32.51 | Bradipo | Ok, if my mom needs special genealogy software to run linux, who's going to write it out of the kindess of their hearts? |
| 06:33.07 | sjansen | LDSOSS |
| 06:33.09 | Bradipo | run on linux... |
| 06:33.34 | Bradipo | Maybe that's a bad example anyway because PAF is free. :-) |
| 06:33.37 | sjansen | Let's not forget that OSS isn't anti-commercial. |
| 06:33.54 | Bradipo | No, it isn't (at least in theory). |
| 06:34.04 | sjansen | There's nothing to prevent a "Farmer's Coop" style of software funding. |
| 06:34.46 | sjansen | But there's less incentive to create/buy trashy software and milk it for everything it's worth like certain companies I can think of. |
| 06:34.52 | sjansen | *cough* CA *cough* |
| 06:35.25 | sjansen | And there's less incentive to convince managers that they absolutely must have a portal. |
| 06:36.02 | sjansen | But there's no less incentive to solve the problem of interbusiness communication, employee productivity, etc. |
| 06:36.27 | Bradipo | No, except managers don't see linux as a solution for that. |
| 06:36.39 | Bradipo | They go with what the industry dictates. |
| 06:36.45 | Bradipo | With what looks good to investors. |
| 06:36.46 | sjansen | Sure they do. You just mean they don't _all_. |
| 06:37.47 | Bradipo | When a company looks to buy you out, they don't want home grown solutions that joebob put together to add to their business. |
| 06:37.55 | Bradipo | They want *real* assets. |
| 06:38.38 | Bradipo | Don't get me wrong. |
| 06:38.51 | sjansen | Since when did business become about getting bought out instead of producing something? |
| 06:39.08 | Bradipo | I would love to see more adoption of open source software, but I don't think it will be during my days in IT. |
| 06:39.22 | Bradipo | What is the point of business? |
| 06:39.33 | Bradipo | IT doesn't produce anything. |
| 06:39.46 | Bradipo | IT doesn't bring in revenue. |
| 06:39.51 | Bradipo | They are a service that costs money. |
| 06:40.23 | Bradipo | Business is about becoming profitable. |
| 06:40.24 | Bradipo | Making money. |
| 06:40.31 | Bradipo | And yes, producing something. |
| 06:41.00 | Bradipo | I'm not saying open source doesn't fit in. |
| 06:41.32 | Bradipo | I'm just saying that most businesses have no experience with it and don't necessarily see it as an option. |
| 06:42.08 | Bradipo | Where is open source appropriate? |
| 06:42.09 | tensai | here, here to that. I run half my office on open source and my boss still doesn't get it |
| 06:43.26 | sjansen | Open source is appropriate anywhere you don't want to be beholden to another company and don't want to incur the full cost of development yourself. |
| 06:43.48 | sjansen | ESR already outlined it pretty effectively for businesses. |
| 06:44.02 | Bradipo | But you nevertheless end up doing more development than otherwise would be needed. |
| 06:44.17 | sjansen | As long as it's only providing a service, but not making your company unique, it makes sense. |
| 06:44.33 | Bradipo | How easy would it be to replace a full on exchange system with open source? |
| 06:45.01 | sjansen | Now that depends on whether it's finished or not, doesn't it. ;-) |
| 06:45.26 | Bradipo | Or how do you easily integrate calendaring, email and contacts with open source? |
| 06:45.34 | Bradipo | Integrate with Outlook. |
| 06:46.46 | sjansen | Don't you think you're being a bit unreasonable there? |
| 06:47.08 | sjansen | Evolution can handle calendaring, email and contacts. |
| 06:47.22 | sjansen | It's not that hard to set up the required LDAP and IMAP servers. |
| 06:47.47 | sjansen | Now if you want integration with proprietary software there's less incentive. |
| 06:48.03 | sjansen | What does Microsoft work to integrate with first? It's own stuff. |
| 06:48.03 | Bradipo | I don't think I'm being unreasonable. |
| 06:48.26 | sjansen | Same with OSS, work first with your own ilk then extend to other stuff. |
| 06:48.59 | Bradipo | That's a good point. |
| 06:49.54 | Bradipo | I think linux on the mainstream desktop is a pipe dream anyway. |
| 06:50.13 | Bradipo | I think linux as a workstation in certain types of businesses make a lot of sense. |
| 06:50.25 | Tenebram | Bradipo: why never mainstream? |
| 06:50.27 | sjansen | Linux on a secretaries desk does too. |
| 06:50.33 | Tenebram | I'm not objecting, just wondering. |
| 06:50.37 | Bradipo | Yeah, our secretary used to run linux. |
| 06:50.58 | *** join/#utah arockj (arockj@c-24-2-96-63.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:50.59 | Bradipo | We were over there all the time, ``How do I do this, how do I do that, this doesn't work right.'' |
| 06:51.08 | Bradipo | We put her back on Windows and it has been quiet ever since. |
| 06:51.19 | sjansen | Gee, just like when you were first learning to use a computer. |
| 06:51.30 | Bradipo | It won't ever be mainstream because applications businesses require don't run on it. |
| 06:51.41 | torriem | That's interesting because I've put a couple of novices in front of linux and after a few hours of playing , they do just fine. They continue to ask the same questions that they've always asked about computers. |
| 06:52.01 | torriem | Such as? |
| 06:52.12 | torriem | (Besides outlook calendaring) |
| 06:52.14 | Bradipo | Word, Visio, FrameMaker, Adobe. |
| 06:52.27 | torriem | That's a pretty broad definition of business software. |
| 06:52.30 | Bradipo | DreamWeaver. |
| 06:52.31 | torriem | Word, yes. |
| 06:52.44 | Bradipo | What business doesn't run Outlook for their email client? |
| 06:52.44 | sjansen | Word - OOo, Visio - Kivio, Inkscape, FrameMaker - Don't remember, Adobe - which part? |
| 06:53.02 | torriem | Most segments of business I see don't need Framemaker or Dreamweaver; That's for specific segments of business |
| 06:53.09 | Bradipo | I agree. |
| 06:53.15 | Bradipo | Financial software. |
| 06:53.22 | sjansen | You seem to assume that because it has the largest market now, it always will. |
| 06:53.22 | Bradipo | Business software. |
| 06:53.30 | torriem | And although I find Dreamweaver very interesting, I'd rather not have my webmaster using it. |
| 06:53.42 | sjansen | By that reasoning, we should all be running the same original spreasheet software. |
| 06:53.47 | torriem | Financial software always has been vertical market. |
| 06:53.52 | sjansen | Business will migrate when the incentive is great enough. |
| 06:53.52 | Bradipo | You wouldn't, but not everyone has time or money to hire a decent webmaster. |
| 06:53.56 | torriem | They can write it for whatever platform they want to. |
| 06:54.09 | Bradipo | Quicken and Quickbooks. |
| 06:54.13 | torriem | True. A good webmaster is worth his salt, that's for sure. |
| 06:54.29 | Bradipo | None of these programs run out of the box on linux. |
| 06:54.34 | torriem | I'm more in favor of double-entry accounting, so I tend to lean towards Gnucash over quicken. |
| 06:54.42 | Bradipo | None of these programs integrate with linux. |
| 06:54.51 | torriem | Obviously. That's like saying Quicken for windows won't run out of the box on mac. |
| 06:54.56 | Bradipo | I think I would actually use gnucash if I could get it to work on OpenBSD. :-) |
| 06:54.59 | sjansen | I'm not opposed to Dreamweaver. It's a slick piece of software. In the right hands, in eliminates alot of drudgery. |
| 06:55.13 | Bradipo | You asked why Linux would never be mainstream... |
| 06:55.25 | sjansen | And you replied "because it isn't now." |
| 06:55.28 | torriem | It's always a catch-22. If you don't push, then yes, Linux never will be mainstream. |
| 06:56.32 | sjansen | With the increased adoption in China, Brasil, Germany, India, etc. there's plenty of reason to suspect that things can change drastically. |
| 06:56.45 | Bradipo | Man, you guys are going to think I'm anti-[oss|linux|bsd] :-) |
| 06:56.49 | torriem | The crux of the linux desktop issue I see is that windows "experts" are a dime a dozen. |
| 06:56.53 | torriem | (no we don't) |
| 06:56.54 | Bradipo | I'm just playing devil's advocate here. |
| 06:57.08 | torriem | Therefore when johnny has a problem, he goes to the local teenage guru. |
| 06:57.09 | sjansen | Why is OOo suddenly becoming popular in Israel, because the OSS was willing to translate when Microsoft wasn't. |
| 06:57.10 | Bradipo | India and China will be great forces on the market. |
| 06:57.37 | torriem | So with either Linux or Win, a good admin (who locks down the system so they can't change anything --even install software) is the key to making a thing viable. |
| 06:57.46 | Bradipo | Well, I've been pushing for 5 years now... |
| 06:58.20 | torriem | I honestly think that knoppix-style distros may be the key to the desktop. If you screw up your system (as long as the data is backed up somehow), you just insert your "recovery" disk |
| 06:58.30 | Bradipo | Well, that's the key to making it manageable from the administrators point of view. |
| 06:58.46 | torriem | From most user's point of view, really. |
| 06:58.48 | torriem | No more gator |
| 06:58.53 | Bradipo | Haha. |
| 06:58.55 | Bradipo | No more adaware. |
| 06:59.14 | Bradipo | ``But what can I do with this system?'' |
| 06:59.15 | torriem | It's the illusiion of freedom that people get from using administrator on windows |
| 06:59.20 | sjansen | But then there's people like us and (worse) people who think they are. |
| 06:59.27 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 06:59.34 | Bradipo | People that want to install their own OS. |
| 06:59.37 | torriem | Most people do the same things: word process, e-mail, surf, music, movies |
| 06:59.44 | sjansen | I tried working in Windows, really I did. |
| 06:59.49 | Bradipo | kazaa, filesharing. |
| 06:59.52 | torriem | I don't know of any computer neophytes that want to install their own OS. |
| 07:00.02 | Bradipo | Try working at SCO... |
| 07:00.05 | torriem | All others can do it pretty well, and they can handle linux too. |
| 07:00.09 | torriem | :) |
| 07:00.09 | *** part/#utah arockj (arockj@c-24-2-96-63.client.comcast.net) |
| 07:00.10 | Bradipo | Or a technology company for that matter. |
| 07:00.43 | Bradipo | IT has a hard time locking anything down because they all want to run this or that OS as part of their job. |
| 07:00.54 | sjansen | Our support guys basically deal only in hardware and helping the handful of people who can't manage a computer for themselves. |
| 07:00.57 | torriem | People who want that kind of control over their own machine, and don't need it, usually spend more time tweaking and trying to install useless things than actually working. |
| 07:01.03 | Bradipo | And it doesn't make sense to restrict them because they may just blow it all away one day. |
| 07:01.23 | torriem | In fact, I'm a unix admin by trade, but on most machines that I don't own, I get by just fine with normal access. |
| 07:01.27 | Bradipo | torriem: I would tend to agree there. |
| 07:01.40 | Bradipo | On both statements. :-) |
| 07:01.52 | Bradipo | I am a big root hater. |
| 07:01.55 | sjansen | Which is where a good manager comes in. Someone should be noticing that an employing is re-installing every other week and tell him to knock it off or do it off the clock. |
| 07:01.59 | Bradipo | If I catch you logging in as root, beware. |
| 07:02.25 | Bradipo | We had a guy at work that would always login as root. |
| 07:02.26 | torriem | Mac OS X is a good mix, I think. Even neophytes are introduced to the idea of separate user privileges. they have to at least enter a password to get root |
| 07:02.34 | Bradipo | Everytime I saw him I would warn him... |
| 07:02.38 | torriem | (the gui has this idea well-integrated) |
| 07:02.55 | Bradipo | One day he came up and told me that he accidentally dd'ed his hard drive. |
| 07:03.04 | torriem | :) |
| 07:03.11 | Bradipo | And wondered what could be done to recover his 700 digital image collection. |
| 07:03.14 | torriem | Therein does lie the weakness of linux: |
| 07:03.30 | torriem | Those who know a little bit think they know everything, and can screw it up beyond all recognition. |
| 07:03.34 | Bradipo | Thank goodness we had Lost and Found (or whatever that program is called). |
| 07:03.35 | torriem | Hence the term fubar |
| 07:03.53 | sjansen | Hardly a weakness of just Linux. |
| 07:03.54 | torriem | Interesting. |
| 07:03.59 | Bradipo | I think Mac OS X has a much better chance. |
| 07:03.59 | torriem | Definitely true. |
| 07:04.15 | torriem | But for windows they are used to the weekly reinstall of the OS (by their neighbor kid) |
| 07:04.17 | Bradipo | Hardly, however, if he hadn't been logged in as root he wouldn't have made the miistake. |
| 07:04.27 | Bradipo | Or he would have, but it would have refused to kill it. |
| 07:04.32 | torriem | How can you dd generally without root? |
| 07:04.54 | torriem | Seems like he would have had to think about it a bit more before he su'd, so that would have stopped him |
| 07:04.58 | Bradipo | Give the devices the proper permissions. |
| 07:05.00 | torriem | (you're right) |
| 07:05.22 | torriem | I'm trying to train my employees to ween themselves off of su and start using sudo. |
| 07:05.22 | Bradipo | Setup a group that is allowed to write to removable media. |
| 07:05.34 | Bradipo | But not to hard drives. |
| 07:05.37 | Bradipo | Directly that is. |
| 07:05.41 | torriem | Ahh. I think logged in users in most distro do have access to the removable disk. |
| 07:05.42 | torriem | s |
| 07:05.48 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 07:05.57 | torriem | Yeah. Root is stupid. |
| 07:06.10 | Bradipo | root can be abused that's for certain. |
| 07:06.24 | torriem | But in Windows 2000 it's often the only real practical way to run it sometimes (although learning about runas was good) |
| 07:06.31 | Bradipo | That's what I hear. |
| 07:06.48 | Bradipo | And XP is no different. |
| 07:07.01 | torriem | It's actually a bit better, but by default all users are administrators |
| 07:07.10 | torriem | (so that's pretty much like win98 out of the box) |
| 07:07.17 | Bradipo | The culture in Windows just doesn't allow for distinction of administrator very easily. |
| 07:07.34 | torriem | No. Also the apps have a hard time adapting. |
| 07:07.43 | Bradipo | People aren't used to thinking about more than one account, one having fewer privileges. |
| 07:07.51 | torriem | Unlike unix where apps have this concept right from the early days |
| 07:07.54 | torriem | yeah |
| 07:08.12 | Bradipo | *nix is clearly superior for those that can embrace it and take advantage of it. |
| 07:08.21 | torriem | OS X is good in this regard. You can install software as a normal user (usually), but you don't run as root. The gui sudos you when it needs privileges |
| 07:08.29 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 07:08.37 | Bradipo | But you have to hack into it to get the root password. :-) |
| 07:08.53 | Newsome | it's much easier to just log in as root all the time |
| 07:08.54 | torriem | I think you can sudo to root, then passwd root |
| 07:09.01 | torriem | :) |
| 07:09.44 | Newsome | is there something wrong with doing that? :) |
| 07:09.45 | torriem | Oddly enough on OS X root is disabled by default (you can't log in as root) but you can ssh in as root, as long as root has a password. |
| 07:10.01 | torriem | No. In fact it's so safe that you can rm -rf / |
| 07:10.13 | Bradipo | Newsome: Is this the new *nix gospel at the Y? :-X |
| 07:10.15 | Newsome | I'll try that right now :) |
| 07:10.30 | Newsome | yeah, the goal is to get rid of all our users :) |
| 07:11.26 | torriem | Back to the other topic, I think Linux has a ways to go, but I've looked back at how far it's come since I first installed RedHat 5.1 (fvwm95 -- shudder), and I'm excited for the next couple of years |
| 07:11.28 | sjansen | Newsome: Could you wait until after my professors get all my end of semester emails? |
| 07:11.49 | Newsome | well, I suppose I could. |
| 07:11.58 | Bradipo | Newsome: You guys use Kerberos at all? |
| 07:12.18 | Newsome | yeah. all the authentication comes through kerberos. |
| 07:12.22 | torriem | I've been following the freedesktop mailing list for a while and it looks like we'll have OS X-style effects, 3-dish window effects and everything within 6 months |
| 07:12.24 | Bradipo | Very nice. |
| 07:12.35 | torriem | Newsome: do you have a kerberized browser and apache module? |
| 07:12.36 | Newsome | We've got a nearly identical system to what torriem has (he worked for me) |
| 07:12.40 | Bradipo | I've always wanted to setup and administer Kerberos. |
| 07:12.47 | torriem | Oh |
| 07:12.48 | torriem | yeah |
| 07:12.52 | torriem | I know who you are now |
| 07:13.03 | Newsome | torriem: um, no. not really. I'll bet that Ed does, though :) |
| 07:13.13 | torriem | It's a bear to get going |
| 07:13.16 | Newsome | haha |
| 07:13.17 | torriem | (keberos) |
| 07:13.26 | Bradipo | Oh, I know all about it. |
| 07:13.29 | torriem | OS X server makes it very easy, though. |
| 07:13.34 | Bradipo | Just haven't had any practical use for it. |
| 07:13.40 | torriem | (not that I've given myself completly over to the apple side) |
| 07:13.55 | Bradipo | OS X is definitely attractive looking. |
| 07:14.08 | torriem | I'd like to see kerberos used in my department for everything from logins to web resource access |
| 07:14.14 | Bradipo | In the end though, I would end up using the terminal emulator more than anything. |
| 07:14.25 | torriem | Just waiting for them to finish kerberos support in ssh. |
| 07:14.34 | Bradipo | So OS X would be cool for a few days, and then just be a hindrance. |
| 07:14.46 | Bradipo | I thought SSH already had Kerberos support... |
| 07:14.53 | Newsome | kerberos is pretty nice, but the server and all its tools are so bad that I keep hoping for something better to come along. |
| 07:15.03 | torriem | They've been ripping it out to replace the core stuff with GSSAPI stuff. |
| 07:15.11 | Bradipo | Oh yeah. |
| 07:15.13 | Bradipo | That's right. |
| 07:15.34 | torriem | Right now, all kerberos does for me is pass-through ldap authentication. |
| 07:15.47 | torriem | MIT uses it everywhere though. |
| 07:15.55 | Bradipo | I know. |
| 07:15.58 | torriem | (IE route-Y login stuff would be kerberos at mit) |
| 07:16.05 | torriem | I envy their abilities |
| 07:16.42 | Newsome | maybe Novell can get their butt in gear, and make a decent kerberos-like NDS-type thingy (how's that for technical jargon?). |
| 07:16.52 | Bradipo | Not enough buzz words. |
| 07:16.52 | torriem | Apple has a password store they use called OpenDirectory. While it doesn't have anything to do with kerberos, it syncs with kerberos (password changes). It contains MD5, Blowfish, etc hashes. |
| 07:17.17 | torriem | I think OpenLDAP with OpenDirectory and Kerberos right now is a far better option than NDS. |
| 07:17.41 | torriem | If you want the nice console, apple has it all put together. I'll be working a bit to port OpenDirectory to Linux next semester. |
| 07:17.49 | torriem | (the backend) |
| 07:19.08 | Newsome | Of all the NOS's I've worked on, I think I enjoyed Novell best. Of course, that was back in the bindery days. But the networked filesystem always seemed to work, and I really liked how they did ACLs/file permissions. |
| 07:19.29 | torriem | And the 7 year uptimes |
| 07:19.48 | Newsome | Why can't someone make NFS always work, and add decent ACLs to Linux? why, why why? |
| 07:19.56 | torriem | kernel 2.6 |
| 07:20.00 | Bradipo | I never really liked bindery or Novell's NOS. |
| 07:20.17 | Newsome | now that's a good song! |
| 07:20.32 | Bradipo | Newsome: Have you tried AFS or CODA? |
| 07:20.46 | Newsome | I've played a little with AFS. |
| 07:20.52 | torriem | I looked at AFS. It's cool in theory, but there's no easy migration path from a conventional file system to AFS |
| 07:21.21 | Newsome | I think that's about the biggest problem with it. It's a really big leap. |
| 07:21.27 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 07:21.29 | Bradipo | It's all or nothing. |
| 07:21.42 | Newsome | kinda like switching from pine to mutt, I've heard :) |
| 07:21.44 | torriem | But it is proven technology |
| 07:22.06 | Bradipo | Hehe, I'm still scarred from my PINE days at the Y. :-) |
| 07:22.45 | Bradipo | Of course I don't use either regularly now. |
| 07:22.45 | torriem | AFS isn't quite what I would like. It's not really redundant and it can't handle it when pieces of it disappear, like other distributed fs have |
| 07:22.49 | Bradipo | I'm an exmh convert. |
| 07:22.58 | torriem | I have to confess I use Evolution |
| 07:23.08 | Bradipo | I thought that was one of the features of AFS (disconnected use). |
| 07:23.13 | sjansen | I have to proclaim I use Evolution |
| 07:23.53 | Bradipo | I've been meaning to setup a distributed filesystem so I can share my email on all systems. |
| 07:23.56 | torriem | I don't think it is, although I could be mistaken |
| 07:24.06 | Bradipo | Maybe that's CODA. |
| 07:24.11 | torriem | It might be. |
| 07:24.17 | Bradipo | I know one of them is supposed to handle disconnected mode. |
| 07:24.25 | sjansen | Definetly Coda, but AFS might be able to. |
| 07:24.26 | torriem | I would like as easy distributed fs that can map itself on top of an underlying file system somehow |
| 07:24.45 | torriem | (transparent migration and syncing/caching or something) |
| 07:24.48 | Bradipo | As in a union mount? |
| 07:24.53 | Newsome | I'd just like NFS to stop spewing so many errors. |
| 07:24.55 | torriem | No idea, really |
| 07:24.55 | sjansen | I would like bits to magically transport themselves where ever I need them instantly. |
| 07:25.21 | torriem | I'm waiting for NFSv4 (kerberized) so at least that much can finally be secured and trusted for use on an untrusted client |
| 07:25.32 | Bradipo | Now that would be awesome. |
| 07:25.38 | Bradipo | kerberized nfs... |
| 07:25.43 | Bradipo | Right now, NFS is just too insecure. |
| 07:25.47 | torriem | sjansen: so you're waiting for the string theorists to find your connected particles |
| 07:25.49 | Newsome | definitely |
| 07:26.14 | torriem | It's all part of nfsv4 specs, although we may not see widespread suppport for a while |
| 07:26.16 | Bradipo | I'm actually surprised that NFS hasn't yet been kerberized. |
| 07:26.29 | torriem | There are hacks out there to make it work with kerberos |
| 07:26.32 | sjansen | torriem: Nah, I'm just waiting for the world to revolve around me. |
| 07:26.45 | Bradipo | I mean, NFS has to be one of the oldes networked filesystems. |
| 07:26.46 | torriem | torriem: it's all a matter of perspective. Perhaps it already does |
| 07:26.53 | torriem | I mean sjansen: |
| 07:27.22 | Newsome | I'm just sick and tired of all the "nfs: server nfs-user2 not responding, timed out" errors |
| 07:27.40 | torriem | I haven't seen those errors in some time on my servers (linux and mac) |
| 07:27.45 | Bradipo | lol |
| 07:28.09 | sjansen | Newsome: Start automatically forwarding them to emcnabb as email. That'll give him incentive to fix it himself. |
| 07:28.15 | torriem | On a topic unrelated, but related to sjansen's comment, have any of you seen Timeline? |
| 07:28.15 | Bradipo | nfs: server 10.250.1.1 still not responding |
| 07:28.15 | Bradipo | nfs: server 10.250.1.1 OK |
| 07:28.27 | torriem | :) |
| 07:28.37 | sjansen | I've read it. |
| 07:28.39 | torriem | Bradipo: yeah I have seen those |
| 07:28.40 | Bradipo | And then everything in those directories hang. |
| 07:28.49 | torriem | sjansen: I enjoyed the book as well |
| 07:28.59 | Bradipo | I mean, really hangs up like nothing can kill it. |
| 07:29.11 | torriem | sjansen: or rather, I found it to be an interesting take on quantum mechanics |
| 07:29.49 | *** join/#utah synic|home (~synic@65-100-210-70.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 07:29.50 | torriem | Bradipo: I've seen that a few times. Today my os x server's rpc-lockd went weird, causing a lot of hangups on the clients. I just restarted the daemon and the problems cleared up |
| 07:30.13 | torriem | Newsome: my pb 12" is somewhere over the pacific right now |
| 07:31.01 | torriem | Newsome: just my luck the fedex plane will crash and it will end up being stranded on an island for 4 years with some fedex employee |
| 07:31.01 | Newsome | the problem gets bad when we've got all 160 Linux boxes, and all 150 Windows machines (Samba) in use. |
| 07:31.03 | torriem | :) |
| 07:31.10 | torriem | Newsome: Hmm. |
| 07:31.27 | torriem | Newsome: I have at least as many samba clients as you, but only a dozen nfs clients |
| 07:31.28 | Newsome | just think, though. he'll come personally deliver it, as long as there's some wings on the package. |
| 07:31.37 | Bradipo | Well, I better get to bed, just in case I get another DoS call at 4:00 in the morning. :-) |
| 07:31.40 | torriem | :) Slightly soggy |
| 07:31.43 | Newsome | night. |
| 07:31.46 | Bradipo | Later. |
| 07:31.49 | torriem | Bradipo: You work for sco? |
| 07:31.52 | sjansen | G'night. |
| 07:32.00 | Bradipo | Not this again... |
| 07:32.02 | Newsome | looks like the DoS is mostly over for now. |
| 07:32.12 | torriem | Sorry |
| 07:32.13 | sjansen | Yep, he does. We were just discussing how unethical he must be. |
| 07:32.19 | Bradipo | lol |
| 07:32.21 | torriem | I missed most of that. |
| 07:32.22 | Bradipo | Yeah, for now. |
| 07:32.35 | Newsome | yes, Bradipo works for SCO. He's a tech guy, but we don't discuss SCO/Canopy ethics with him :) |
| 07:32.41 | torriem | :) |
| 07:32.54 | sjansen | Or rather, we don't believe anything he tells us is straight. |
| 07:32.59 | Bradipo | You guys can turn on CTCP encryption now. |
| 07:33.00 | torriem | Ahh |
| 07:33.01 | sjansen | Keeping the job and all. |
| 07:33.14 | Newsome | jobs are important :) |
| 07:33.35 | sjansen | Food and clothing are overratted. Only hardware matters. |
| 07:33.46 | torriem | Yeah a blanket is more like software. |
| 07:34.11 | torriem | interesting idea |
| 07:46.31 | torriem | night all |
| 07:46.33 | *** part/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net) |
| 07:56.02 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 08:19.28 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 09:39.17 | Tenebram | I figured out the problem with userdirs in apache |
| 09:39.27 | Tenebram | the home directories didn't have the execute bit set |
| 09:39.33 | Tenebram | if anyone's awake who cares |
| 14:18.30 | Hanuman | yo yo yo |
| 14:26.30 | Tenebram | Yay for sanity! |
| 14:34.20 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@ts46-01-qdr2863.gpass.or.charter.com) |
| 14:55.32 | Hanuman | We'll see how long it lasts |
| 15:07.49 | Hanuman | Cool - I won a free NFL hat from Pepsi |
| 15:07.57 | Tenebram | yay? |
| 15:08.15 | Hanuman | odds are 1 in 36 and I only had to buy 4 |
| 15:09.23 | Hanuman | Now I can get my Houston Texans hat |
| 15:09.49 | Tenebram | why do you want one? |
| 15:11.05 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 15:22.36 | Hanuman | Because it's free and I grew up in Texas |
| 15:22.48 | Hanuman | and I like Football |
| 15:22.56 | Hanuman | and I like hats |
| 15:25.37 | Tenebram | I don't like texas or football or hats... |
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| 16:12.20 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.01-75.budget.net) |
| 16:19.58 | Hanuman | ~LART Jayce^ |
| 16:20.07 | Hanuman | stupid caps |
| 16:20.11 | Hanuman | I hate Windows |
| 16:21.38 | Hanuman | You'd think by now they would have thought of some sort of decent shell scripting language |
| 16:22.11 | Hanuman | All I want is the Name of the current logged-in user inserted into an environment variable within a login script |
| 16:22.17 | Hanuman | you'd think it would be easy |
| 16:22.57 | sjansen | Texas is one place I'd be willing to live. |
| 16:23.03 | Hanuman | me too |
| 16:23.08 | hans | sjansen: I saw Timeline |
| 16:23.09 | Jayce^ | there is the big, flat, open areas, and the big, flat, trailer parks :) |
| 16:23.11 | hans | who wrote the book? |
| 16:23.36 | Hanuman | Jayce^: and the big, flat oil-rigs |
| 16:23.47 | Hanuman | making the big, flat, trailer parks lots of money |
| 16:24.08 | sjansen | Michael Crichton |
| 16:24.36 | sjansen | I'm from ND, big flat is nothing new to me. |
| 16:24.52 | tensai | Hanuman: have you seen KiXtart? It's a windows specific scripting language |
| 16:24.54 | Hanuman | well, actually, Hanuman never grew up, but that's where he went to Junior High and HS |
| 16:24.56 | Jayce^ | true, sjansen, not much difference in terrain.. |
| 16:25.04 | sjansen | I like the nice rolling hills. The fact that anyone could where a cowboy hat without fear. The widespread love of country music. |
| 16:25.13 | sjansen | "God blessed Texas with his own hand." |
| 16:25.19 | Hanuman | tensai: haven't - is it tough to install, and does it require a license? |
| 16:25.24 | Jayce^ | sjansen, the left one :) |
| 16:26.22 | tensai | Hanuman: it comes with the Win2k Resource Kit. It's a simple EXE. I can send it to you if you like. To be legit you'd need to buy the resource kit. |
| 16:26.24 | Jayce^ | texas is missing several important features to be blessed :) |
| 16:26.44 | Hanuman | tensai: I think I already have that. I'll take a look at it. |
| 16:27.23 | Jayce^ | temperate climate, rainforests, forests, mountains, the Pacific, border with a non-hispanic country, a music style without twang... |
| 16:27.25 | Hanuman | All I want is a command I can put in a login script that will pull the user's name from the PDC and set an environment variable with that name on the user's computer |
| 16:27.37 | tensai | Hanuman: I have a script I run on every log in to map drives and such. I can send it to you as an example. |
| 16:27.39 | sjansen | "God blessed Texas with his own hand. Set down angels fromt he promised land. Gave them a place where they could dance. If you wanna see heaven, brother, here's your chance." |
| 16:27.48 | tensai | yeah, it can do that |
| 16:27.58 | tensai | my script does that in fact |
| 16:28.02 | Hanuman | I can get that info w/o the environment variable in Win2k through the Windows API, but Win98 and Win95 don't understand the calls to do that |
| 16:28.06 | *** join/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 16:28.27 | Hanuman | tensai: I've got scripts. I'm just trying to figure out how to do what I mentioned above in those scripts |
| 16:28.56 | Hanuman | tensai: if your script does that, yeah, I wouldn't mind the scripts - could you e-mail me a sample one that does that? |
| 16:29.02 | Hanuman | jesse@cwdkids.com |
| 16:29.24 | tensai | Kixtart is designed for just what you describe. it handles the differences between 9x and NT for you |
| 16:29.32 | Hanuman | cool |
| 16:29.34 | tensai | yup, will do |
| 16:29.47 | Hanuman | does MSDN have any good docs on Kixtart? |
| 16:30.00 | tensai | the resource kit does. it's all on the CD |
| 16:30.11 | Hanuman | okay - I'll have to see if I can pull that out |
| 16:31.51 | Hanuman | otherwise I'm not going to use it |
| 16:32.37 | Hanuman | The company will have to sacrifice if it doesn't want to purchase licenses - that or use OSS |
| 16:32.57 | Hanuman | Either it will get me fired or convince them to start moving to cheaper alternatives |
| 16:34.08 | sjansen | I haven't seen the movie, so I can't comment. |
| 16:34.23 | hans | the movie wasn't all that bad, really, but from the science perspective totally out of whack. Crichton is usually pretty believable (if obviously fictitious). |
| 16:34.27 | sjansen | The book wasn't as amazing as some people think. Definetly not as good as Andromeda strain. |
| 16:34.56 | hans | sjansen: did the science in the book approximate making sense? |
| 16:35.09 | sjansen | It's been a long time, so I don't remember. |
| 16:35.36 | hans | i really liked sphere and jurassic park/lost world. |
| 16:35.39 | sjansen | Specifically, I don't remember the physics. The history argument was compelling. |
| 16:35.59 | hans | jurassic park was a good movie, its sequels were not so good. never saw sphere |
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| 16:36.36 | hans | the history in the movie was very good and very interesting, and I liked hanging out with archaeologists. Loved the scottish accents too. |
| 16:36.54 | Hanuman | looks like Kixstart is free anyway for the download at kixstart.org |
| 16:37.08 | Hanuman | sorry - kixtart.org |
| 16:38.16 | hans | and I think either Crichton is softening up or they left out a lot of the swearing. that's good. sure was a lot of sword violence though |
| 16:39.43 | sjansen | Jurassic Park was exciting for the CGI at the time. The book was alot better, though. They made annoying changes for the movie. |
| 16:40.24 | Bradipo | Now, this seems like an expert to me. :-) http://www.caida.org/analysis/security/sco-dos/ |
| 16:40.36 | Bradipo | Sorry if I'm beating this to death in here. |
| 16:40.38 | Hanuman | tensai: looking at the docs for Kixtart - I think I may have found Heaven if it exists in the Windows NT domain world |
| 16:40.42 | sjansen | Because he says what you want to hear? |
| 16:40.43 | Bradipo | It's a very interesting read. |
| 16:40.51 | Bradipo | No, because he says the truth. |
| 16:40.56 | Jayce^ | sjansen, read an interview last night that hated it.. |
| 16:41.04 | Hanuman | Not that there is a heaven that exists in the Windows NT domain world |
| 16:41.04 | tensai | Hanuman: that's new. when I was setting it up earlier this year it wasn't free. it uses to be but got assimilated in to the kit. I guess it's back to free again. |
| 16:41.07 | Jayce^ | of course, you could tell the person had no clue about the story itself.. |
| 16:41.10 | Bradipo | And it's not a he, it's Caida. |
| 16:41.37 | Hanuman | tensai: I take it kixtart needs to be installed on each client computer, correct? |
| 16:42.23 | tensai | Hanuman: no. I put it in the NETLOGON share with a shell script (which I sent) |
| 16:42.50 | tensai | Hanuman: if you're only running it on login, that is. if you're scripting everything with it, then yes |
| 16:43.03 | Hanuman | cool - got it. thanks! |
| 16:43.10 | Hanuman | tensai: nah - just at login |
| 16:43.28 | Hanuman | as long as I can set an environment variable with it I'm fine |
| 16:44.01 | Hanuman | caida-shmaida ;-) |
| 16:44.14 | sjansen | It's hard not to be. |
| 16:46.34 | Hanuman | tensai: can you zip that .bat file and resend it? Our anti-virus program blocked it. I can try to find it if it's too much trouble, but if it's not too hard it may just be easier for you to just resend it zipped. |
| 16:47.50 | Hanuman | :-P |
| 16:47.59 | tensai | on its way |
| 16:48.08 | sjansen | I've got an anti-virus filter. It's called Linux. |
| 16:48.25 | Hanuman | I've got an anti-virus filter at home on my Linux machine |
| 16:48.29 | Hanuman | if you call that paranoid |
| 16:48.49 | Hanuman | my home e-mail would have stopped that file as well |
| 16:49.13 | sjansen | I kinda like getting viruses. It happens so rarely. |
| 16:49.53 | Hanuman | tensai: now my bayesian filter thinks you might be spam - I got it, though |
| 16:49.55 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 16:50.41 | Hanuman | love the win95 sucks section |
| 17:03.55 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@evans-laptop.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:07.34 | sjansen | hans: What's the on-campus address for you wiki again? |
| 17:08.08 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@128.187.90.132) |
| 17:10.05 | Jayce^ | just updating the wiki right now |
| 17:10.40 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@asterix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 17:11.55 | hans | sjansen: does dns still not resolve correctly? |
| 17:12.10 | hans | sjansen: `host falcon.fugal.net fugal.net` |
| 17:12.45 | sjansen | bash:sjansen()$ host falcon.fugal.net fugal.net |
| 17:12.45 | sjansen | Using domain server: |
| 17:12.45 | sjansen | Name: fugal.net |
| 17:12.45 | sjansen | Address: 209.210.58.42#53 |
| 17:12.45 | sjansen | Aliases: |
| 17:12.46 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.50 | sjansen | Host falcon.fugal.net not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) |
| 17:13.27 | sjansen | bash:sjansen()$ host falcon.fugal.net |
| 17:13.28 | sjansen | falcon.fugal.net is an alias for fugalh.dyndns.org. |
| 17:13.28 | sjansen | fugalh.dyndns.org has address 128.187.244.37 |
| 17:13.41 | sjansen | I have a 128 address, not a 10. |
| 17:14.36 | hans | what the |
| 17:15.17 | hans | i gotta figure out what happened. in the meantime, use fugalh.rn.byu.edu |
| 17:16.12 | sjansen | I've been trying to use fugalh |
| 17:16.23 | hans | blast them |
| 17:16.30 | hans | 10.7.96.98 |
| 17:16.42 | hans | all dns has turned against me today. :) |
| 17:18.07 | Jayce^ | k, wiki updated |
| 17:19.24 | hans | fugalh@falcon:~$ host -t any falcon.fugal.net fugal.net |
| 17:19.28 | hans | ... |
| 17:19.29 | hans | falcon.fugal.net is an alias for fugalh.rn.byu.edu. |
| 17:19.48 | hans | but fugalh.rn.byu.edu is what's not resolving. i wish oit would at least be consistent |
| 17:20.37 | Hanuman | tensai: cool! You can make it play wav files as the user logs in |
| 17:20.39 | hans | restarting my network interfaces did the trick. maybe pump isn't requesting the name every time |
| 17:22.35 | sjansen | hans: You're not exactly paying for hosting, so it's hard to ask for much more than a consistent connection. |
| 17:22.45 | hans | I am paying 12:30 |
| 17:22.48 | hans | er, 12.30 |
| 17:22.54 | hans | it's cheap, but I *am* paying |
| 17:23.14 | sjansen | And nowhere in your service contract does it include a static ip or anything of the sort. |
| 17:24.10 | sjansen | Hanuman: Perfect. Let's upset people while they're sitting in front of an expensive piece of equipment. |
| 17:24.50 | hans | and I don't expect it, only take advantage of it. But I would like to expect that on-campus behavior (such as my on-campus dns resolution) be consistent if it is provided. |
| 17:25.06 | hans | if they don't want to be consistent, don't provide it. then I wouldn't rely on it. (or I could just learn my lesson... ;-) |
| 17:25.11 | Hanuman | sjansen: and I wouldn't consider all of our equipment necessarily "expensive" - we could use a few new computers |
| 17:25.35 | hans | but I suspect my real problem might be pump. |
| 17:26.02 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, "You've been laid off" |
| 17:26.21 | sjansen | Login -> You've been let go -> Poll for presence of monitor, keyboard, etc. -> Inform user that cost of replacement equipment will be assesed to the them (thank you for making it a better place to work) |
| 17:29.01 | neybar_work | is there a shorthand way for :set filetype=perl in vim? |
| 17:29.20 | Jayce^ | map it to a key? |
| 17:29.27 | hans | neybar_work: :setf perl |
| 17:29.44 | neybar_work | hans: thanks |
| 17:29.58 | hans | you could map it, or make it an autocommand (if your files that aren't being recognized all use the same extension or something) |
| 17:30.30 | hans | or you could just name your files in a standard way, or at least include a shebang line. |
| 17:30.33 | neybar_work | how do you do that? I am editing alot of .html, mhtml, and .mas files that need to be treated as perl |
| 17:30.33 | hans | :) |
| 17:30.53 | neybar_work | that would make way too much sense |
| 17:30.58 | neybar_work | and work... |
| 17:31.27 | hans | fugalh@falcon:~/.vim$ cat filetype.vim |
| 17:31.27 | hans | if exists("did_load_filetypes") |
| 17:31.27 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.27 | hans | endif |
| 17:31.27 | hans | augroup filetypedetect |
| 17:31.28 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.31 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.32 | tensai | hans: the sourdough isn't going so well. pancakes this morning were a flop |
| 17:31.34 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.36 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.38 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:31.41 | hans | augroup END |
| 17:31.47 | hans | tensai: that's terrible. did it not bubble? |
| 17:31.57 | hans | define flop |
| 17:32.02 | tensai | no bubbles. I think I used too much flour |
| 17:32.09 | hans | how stiff was it? |
| 17:32.39 | tensai | flop: tasted really doughy, no fluff, no sourdough taste |
| 17:33.03 | tensai | how stiff was what? the dough? the start? |
| 17:33.11 | Jayce^ | well, that last part would be a success in my book :) |
| 17:33.13 | hans | the start |
| 17:33.23 | hans | Jayce^: you just haven't had good sourdough :) |
| 17:33.37 | Jayce^ | hans, sourdough isnt' good in my book.. |
| 17:33.46 | emcnabb | how do you get another device/ip address on a single ethernet device |
| 17:33.50 | emcnabb | like eth0:0 |
| 17:33.56 | emcnabb | I've seen it done before |
| 17:33.57 | hans | Jayce^: and little kids don't like brocolli |
| 17:34.06 | neybar_work | ~lart Jayce^'s lack of taste |
| 17:34.12 | tensai | not really stiff. I can't think of how to describe it. it was kinda like putty |
| 17:34.23 | hans | emcnabb: ifconfig understands that syntax |
| 17:34.25 | tensai | emcnabb: ifconfig eth0:1 <ip address> |
| 17:34.30 | emcnabb | oh, ok |
| 17:34.34 | emcnabb | thanks guys |
| 17:34.37 | tensai | emcnabb: there is not eth0:0. starts at :1 |
| 17:34.57 | emcnabb | ok |
| 17:34.58 | hans | tensai: so when you mixed it last night, was it putty then? or just this morning? |
| 17:35.12 | emcnabb | I learn something new each day :-) |
| 17:35.21 | hans | emcnabb: even on a reading day? |
| 17:35.30 | tensai | yes, putty last night and this morning. I thought it would morph during the night, but it was the same consistency |
| 17:35.52 | hans | hmm, yeah it sounds like too much flour. |
| 17:36.12 | emcnabb | hans, up |
| 17:36.16 | emcnabb | yup |
| 17:36.18 | Jayce^ | tensai, maybe just overmixed... the gluten will do that... |
| 17:36.44 | hans | If the start activated at putty consistency it would have bubbles but not be bubbly - it would have risen probably. but with lower hydration activation takes longer |
| 17:37.04 | tensai | I didn't mix it too much. I used 1:1 by weight. |
| 17:37.05 | hans | how much flour/water did you add, compared to how much start you started with? |
| 17:37.32 | hans | tensai: was it more elasticky in the morning? i.e. did gluten develop? |
| 17:37.41 | tensai | oh, lots. 240g of flour with half the start you sent |
| 17:38.12 | tensai | no, I think it was the same this morning. I wasn't paying that close attention but it was pretty elasticky last night |
| 17:39.24 | hans | 1:1 by weight (aka 100% hydration) is a pretty good hydration for bread dough. For pancakes I think 1:1 by volume (e.g. about 150% hydration) is better |
| 17:40.19 | hans | try this: tonight mix up about 4x as much flour as start with enough water that it is about pancake batter consistency |
| 17:40.26 | tensai | I took half my weird start and mixed in some milk, sugar and an egg for the pancakes |
| 17:40.27 | hans | e.g. a bit runny |
| 17:40.45 | hans | tensai: oh, what did you do with the rest? did you let it sit? |
| 17:40.49 | hans | or toss it? |
| 17:40.53 | Hanuman | tensai: how do you do comments in kixtart? |
| 17:41.20 | tensai | put it in the fridge. the Doctor Starter recommended that. the Doc seems to think it's still salvagable |
| 17:41.33 | hans | tensai: almost certainly is. glad you saved some |
| 17:41.44 | tensai | Hanuman: ? "This is a comment" |
| 17:41.58 | hans | i don't think refrigeration between stages is necessary, although it may contribute to more lacto bacilli growth. |
| 17:42.02 | Hanuman | okay - that's a weird comment character - I think print when I think ? |
| 17:42.04 | tensai | hans: I may be inept but I'm not stupid :) |
| 17:42.09 | hans | :) |
| 17:42.23 | tensai | Hanuman: ah, crud. you're right. It's the ;. |
| 17:42.47 | hans | then take it out tonight and add a little more water (pancake batter consistency), then let it sit overnight |
| 17:42.48 | tensai | Hanuman: freudian slip. I was looking at a print and a comment together |
| 17:43.49 | tensai | when I added the milk it took quite a beating to get it runny. is it okay to mix it that much? |
| 17:43.49 | hans | it may grow past its peak and settle down again, but that's ok. you should be able to see evidence of its growth on the side of the bowl if it does that. |
| 17:44.11 | Hanuman | tensai: ah - good thing I asked |
| 17:44.26 | hans | i don't see what choice you have when it's that way. I know the consistency of which you speak and it's a devil to get mixed in |
| 17:44.52 | tensai | the stuff you sent is that consistency too |
| 17:45.04 | hans | that's why I suggest higher hydration. some say 1:1 is good for bread dough because the lower hydration means slower yeast growth means more sour. |
| 17:45.14 | hans | tensai: yeah, I added a lot of flour to get it at that consistency |
| 17:45.21 | hans | to get it ready for sending |
| 17:45.29 | Hanuman | tensai: double the double-quotes to escape them, right? |
| 17:46.09 | hans | tensai: the amount of dilution may have been too great for that short of a proofing period, too. |
| 17:46.24 | tensai | Hanuman: hmm. I'm not sure. there's no quotes in any of my scripts |
| 17:46.33 | Hanuman | tensai: ok - I'll figure it out |
| 17:47.20 | *** join/#utah HarleyPi1 (~JS@65.105.156.40) |
| 17:47.42 | Jayce^ | Pil 'eh? |
| 17:48.02 | tensai | oinkl, oinkl |
| 17:48.10 | HarleyPi1 | *snuffle* |
| 17:50.38 | HarleyPi1 | Hey! What happened to my nick! |
| 17:50.58 | Jayce^ | *NOW* HarleyPig get's it |
| 17:51.34 | HarleyPig | Well, you know I'm slow on the uptake. |
| 17:51.51 | Jayce^ | "you'll have to excuse my friend... he's a little slow".. |
| 17:51.56 | Jayce^ | "the town is back *that* way" |
| 17:52.08 | bonez39 | bread...cool....so, if I want it more sour, then I need less water, and longer time..to rise |
| 17:52.41 | HarleyPig | ? wrong window? Or am I being slow again? |
| 17:53.09 | Jayce^ | middle of a conversation |
| 17:53.19 | HarleyPig | Oh. Yeah. The other possibility. :/ |
| 17:53.21 | Jayce^ | they are discussing making sour dough |
| 17:53.34 | hans | bonez39: not necessarily less water. but longer rise time yes |
| 17:54.12 | hans | or longer proof before rising, but then rising might take longer because the yeast was past its peak |
| 17:54.55 | Jayce^ | sjansen, on the wiki Sean == Fistendel, so he has a ride now.. |
| 17:55.08 | sjansen | k |
| 18:04.18 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 18:05.19 | hans | :) |
| 18:05.37 | hans | tensai: it just takes time, like the rising of bread and proofing of sourdoug |
| 18:23.10 | HarleyPig | An old programmer went coding out |
| 18:23.10 | HarleyPig | One dark and windy night, |
| 18:23.10 | HarleyPig | Upon a desk he rested as |
| 18:23.10 | HarleyPig | He went along his way, |
| 18:23.10 | HarleyPig | When all at once a mighty herd |
| 18:23.11 | HarleyPig | Of red eyed bugs he saw, |
| 18:23.13 | HarleyPig | A-plowin' through the ragged code |
| 18:23.15 | HarleyPig | And up a bogged cpu. |
| 18:23.19 | HarleyPig | Yippee-yi-ya, yippee-yi-yo, |
| 18:23.21 | HarleyPig | Ghost bugs in the sky. |
| 18:23.48 | Jayce^ | d'oh |
| 18:24.08 | HarleyPig | I hate mod-perl bugs. |
| 18:24.33 | Jayce^ | hehe.. |
| 18:24.34 | HarleyPig | Got one for you ... member will sometimes log in to a site and get (or already have) another member's cookie. |
| 18:24.42 | Jayce^ | so attach the perl debugger to the process.. |
| 18:25.04 | Jayce^ | the data not being initialized properly? between processes? |
| 18:25.06 | HarleyPig | ? I've never figured out how to do that. Is there a decent tutorial on that? |
| 18:25.12 | HarleyPig | I'm checking that now. |
| 18:25.20 | Jayce^ | can you run it in single process mode, might help to verify |
| 18:25.36 | HarleyPig | But this is a bastard mix of old array code, somebody learning mod_perl and soemthing else. |
| 18:25.39 | HarleyPig | Not pretty. |
| 18:25.42 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 18:25.47 | Jayce^ | at infogenix? |
| 18:26.07 | HarleyPig | Jayce^: Yeah ... can't do single process ... it's a live system and no test bed. |
| 18:26.19 | Jayce^ | can't do the debugger then.. |
| 18:26.31 | HarleyPig | Hmmm ... I s'pose I could copy the conf file and load another process, but I don't think we control this server. |
| 18:26.38 | Jayce^ | I always get stuck at places that only do that.. |
| 18:26.46 | Jayce^ | which box is it? |
| 18:26.47 | HarleyPig | Yeah, me too. |
| 18:26.50 | HarleyPig | donny.com |
| 18:27.13 | Jayce^ | you working on the forum ban stuff? |
| 18:27.33 | HarleyPig | Not really. This is another issue. |
| 18:27.36 | Jayce^ | k |
| 18:29.00 | HarleyPig | I like Koss headphones ... I can have the blasting and no one hear's them. |
| 18:30.14 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, as for your bug, I'd look at data being kept in the process (not initialized).. |
| 18:31.09 | HarleyPig | yeah ... that's what I'm thinking. BTW, we *do* control the server. So I can copy the conf and start another process on another port. |
| 18:31.26 | HarleyPig | Can you point me to a tutorial on how to that? |
| 18:32.06 | Jayce^ | umm, the new mod_perl book :) |
| 18:33.21 | Jayce^ | http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/debug.html |
| 18:33.46 | Jayce^ | and more specifically: http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/debug.html#Interactive_mod_perl_Debugging |
| 18:34.27 | Jayce^ | although some of the other options there might be more helpful for other debugging, that second one is specifically about using perl db with mod_perl |
| 18:36.46 | HarleyPig | Thanks. |
| 18:44.13 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_work (~michael@byu081029wks.byu.edu) |
| 18:48.50 | HarleyPig | Only one of those emails had a mismatched memberid. |
| 18:48.55 | HarleyPig | err |
| 18:49.11 | HarleyPig | yeah |
| 18:49.13 | HarleyPig | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:59.41 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@tiny-udp0026349765uds.byu.edu) |
| 19:03.27 | hans | umbrello was pretty cool, up until it dumped core when I tried to save it as an image |
| 19:04.30 | brailsmt_work | who wants to bet the the anonymous entry in the largest DB story at /. is the church's family history data center? |
| 19:06.48 | Jayce^ | could be |
| 19:08.33 | brailsmt_work | lol, you can check the 10 largest DBs based on OS... the top ten in windows don't make the top ten for all OSes, the top ten in the world all run unix... not really a surprise, but funny nonetheless... |
| 19:10.12 | Bradipo | How big? |
| 19:10.24 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 19:10.29 | Jayce^ | not sure atm, we pruned it down a lot.. |
| 19:10.34 | brailsmt_work | 8.8TB for windows is #1 |
| 19:10.40 | brailsmt_work | 29TB for unix |
| 19:10.42 | Jayce^ | think at our highest, we were at 35 gb |
| 19:10.44 | Bradipo | Nice. |
| 19:10.59 | Jayce^ | yeah, we have no need to be that big :) |
| 19:11.05 | Jayce^ | but still, nothing to snort at |
| 19:11.47 | brailsmt_work | i was under the impression the family history data center was one of the largest in the US |
| 19:11.54 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:13.04 | brailsmt_work | Jayce^: are you saying the church has only 35GB of family history data?!? |
| 19:13.10 | Jayce^ | noooo.. |
| 19:13.16 | Jayce^ | that's my companies db |
| 19:13.17 | brailsmt_work | i have that much storage :) |
| 19:13.33 | brailsmt_work | though not that much stored on it :) |
| 19:13.45 | Jayce^ | really? wow. |
| 19:14.01 | brailsmt_work | well, yeah, I have a 40GB hdd... |
| 19:14.06 | brailsmt_work | :) |
| 19:14.13 | Jayce^ | I mean, you dont' have that much stored.. |
| 19:14.16 | brailsmt_work | but like i said I don't have 40GB of data :) |
| 19:14.26 | Jayce^ | I have a 120 and an 80 in this box.. the 120 is full |
| 19:14.32 | Jayce^ | that's the media drive |
| 19:14.33 | brailsmt_work | i could make 40GB of data real fast though... |
| 19:14.59 | brailsmt_work | cat /dev/urandom > soon_to_be_big_file |
| 19:15.03 | brailsmt_work | :) |
| 19:15.54 | HarleyPig | GkkkA; |
| 19:15.59 | HarleyPig | crap |
| 19:16.11 | brailsmt_work | looks like vim... |
| 19:16.14 | HarleyPig | I'm in vim in the other window. |
| 19:16.33 | Jayce^ | end of file, up up up, insert at end of line :) |
| 19:16.37 | brailsmt_work | three lines up from the bottom of the file and start editing at the end of the line... |
| 19:16.45 | brailsmt_work | and add a ';' |
| 19:16.46 | HarleyPig | Forgot a semi-colon. |
| 19:16.52 | HarleyPig | stoopid picky compiler. |
| 19:16.55 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:16.58 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 19:17.05 | brailsmt_work | and now all of #utah knows it :) |
| 19:17.10 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 19:17.48 | brailsmt_work | G3kA; <-- is fewer keystrokes :) |
| 19:17.55 | brailsmt_work | s/3/2/ |
| 19:18.19 | HarleyPig | Why 2? 3 is correct I think ... |
| 19:18.28 | HarleyPig | I wasn't sur ehow many lines up it was. |
| 19:18.41 | brailsmt_work | oh... |
| 19:19.00 | brailsmt_work | yeah, 3 was right... |
| 19:19.03 | HarleyPig | It's quicker to do kkk (ummm...yeah) than it is to stop and count then do 3k |
| 19:19.07 | brailsmt_work | lol |
| 19:19.23 | HarleyPig | Now, if it were 15 or something ... yeah. |
| 19:42.17 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 19:42.59 | HarleyPig | Jayce^: Can you tell me what's wrong with this query? select password from member where password regexp '^[[:space:]]+$'; |
| 19:43.14 | HarleyPig | I'm getting invalid character class. |
| 19:43.42 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 19:44.04 | HarleyPig | But select password from member where password regexp '^[:space:]+$' works and doesn't give me valid (as I expect valid fromt he regex) response. |
| 19:50.16 | brailsmt_work | i have had a final every year on my B-day (17th), this year is no exception though this year it is my last final *ever* (until i choose to go back to grad school)! |
| 19:50.31 | brailsmt_work | not a bad b-day present |
| 19:50.51 | brailsmt_work | and the final is humanities, so i won't be doing hella studying for it... |
| 19:57.33 | Hanuman | tensai: did you ever have problems getting kix32.exe to run on win98? |
| 19:58.34 | Hanuman | meaning run from the server on a win98 machine |
| 20:11.01 | brailsmt_work | or S.C.O. i should say... |
| 20:11.12 | brailsmt_work | cscope... |
| 20:11.35 | brailsmt_work | The Santa Cruz Operation November 2000 CSCOPE(1) -- found at the bottom of the man page... |
| 20:17.28 | tensai | Hanuman: nope. I've got a couple and they work fine. |
| 20:25.15 | Hanuman | hmm...not liking the SETTIME function |
| 20:25.24 | Hanuman | on win98 |
| 20:25.53 | tensai | ah, that does sound a little familiar |
| 20:26.11 | Hanuman | do you have the dll's on your netlogon share? |
| 20:26.17 | sjansen | http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2003/12/11/myths.html |
| 20:27.24 | bartaway | what does cscope do? |
| 20:28.39 | tensai | -rw-r----- 1 coreyed coreyed 159744 1999-11-04 10:47 kix32.exe |
| 20:28.40 | tensai | -rw-r----- 1 coreyed coreyed 47104 1999-11-04 10:47 kx16.dll |
| 20:28.40 | tensai | -rw-r----- 1 coreyed coreyed 32768 1999-11-04 10:47 kx32.dll |
| 20:28.40 | tensai | -rw-r----- 1 coreyed coreyed 36864 1999-11-04 10:47 kx95.dll |
| 20:28.54 | Hanuman | maybe that's the problem... |
| 20:29.44 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 20:30.56 | Hanuman | yup - that was it - tnx |
| 20:31.14 | tensai | np |
| 20:38.50 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 20:43.10 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net) |
| 20:49.49 | tensai | anybody ever tried subversion to replace CVS? I've been using it for a month or so and I really like it. |
| 20:56.22 | bytheway | have you looked at arch? |
| 20:58.25 | tensai | not in depth |
| 20:58.30 | bytheway | I looked at subversion for a while, but really like what arch brings to the table. It's ability to do distributed repositories are really cool. |
| 21:00.15 | tensai | after reading lkml discussions about bk, distributed repositories does seem cool |
| 21:01.05 | bytheway | arch is now a gnu project, has hit 1.0 already, and 1.1 is weeks away from release. |
| 21:12.07 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 21:17.42 | brailsmt_work | how on earth does on use find? I cannot for the life of me get it to do anything useful like find any files... |
| 21:18.01 | brailsmt_work | i want to find all files that end in .h .c .cc or .cpp... |
| 21:18.29 | brailsmt_work | i tried "find . -regex *.c -o *.h -o *.cc -o *.cpp" to no avail... |
| 21:18.43 | levi | Uh. |
| 21:18.52 | levi | Maybe if you actually gave -regex a regular expression... :) |
| 21:20.45 | tensai | find . -name \*.c -or -name \*.h ... |
| 21:22.59 | levi | I'm glad to hear that the Treo 600 is getting lots of good reviews from the press. |
| 21:24.13 | brailsmt_work | tensai: didn't work |
| 21:24.28 | brailsmt_work | nm... |
| 21:24.35 | brailsmt_work | i gorgot the shell escapes... |
| 21:24.39 | brailsmt_work | thx |
| 21:24.55 | bytheway | the . has a regexp meainig as well |
| 21:25.36 | brailsmt_work | bytheway: yeah, but no biggie here |
| 21:25.47 | levi | As does the *, but they don't do the same thing as they do in shell globbing. |
| 21:27.24 | HarleyPig | There can be only BUN! |
| 21:28.56 | HarleyPig | buckshot of lust? How the heck does he come up with that stuff? |
| 21:28.58 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 21:29.59 | sjansen | brailsmt_work: Out of habit, I always include single quotes. find . -name '*.c' |
| 21:36.31 | bytheway | set k "{$1}" |
| 21:36.33 | bytheway | oops. |
| 21:36.49 | bytheway | that's the problem with having 2 channels open in one window |
| 21:36.55 | HarleyPig | :) |
| 21:37.03 | Bradipo | Did y'all talk about spam solutions for Outlook users? |
| 21:37.22 | Bradipo | Like which bayesian filter works the best with Outlook? |
| 21:38.33 | bartaway | wow. don't start sshd in a chrooted shell and then forget about it. |
| 21:38.38 | bartaway | could cause some confusion. |
| 21:41.07 | HarleyPig | Question in mod_perl: If you create a variable using my or local, it doesn't get released until the httpd child process is killed right? |
| 21:41.17 | HarleyPig | I mean, the process the variable was created in. |
| 21:42.01 | sjansen | Bradipo: I saw a recommendation recently on another list if you're interested. |
| 21:45.24 | tensai | Bradipo: we use SpamBayes. works nice. |
| 21:50.46 | Bradipo | WOrks with Outlook? |
| 21:50.54 | Bradipo | I was looking at the SpamBayes addon... |
| 21:51.03 | Bradipo | Wondering if it was actually useable by non-techy folk. |
| 21:51.31 | Hanuman | Bradipo: we use SpamBayes too - works great (thanks to tensai) |
| 21:52.00 | Hanuman | Bradipo: you have to figure out some way to get it installed and setup on everyone's computer, though since it's a client-based program |
| 21:52.42 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 21:53.26 | Hanuman | For server-based programs, I use MailScanner at home with spamassassin for spam (uses it's own bayesian filter plus some) and f-prot to scan all mail for viruses |
| 21:53.31 | Hanuman | I connect via outlook |
| 21:53.50 | Hanuman | it's IMAP, though and is a little slow w/ Outlook |
| 21:54.14 | Hanuman | You can setup user-specific configurations through a webserver and a database w/ spamassassin, though |
| 21:54.30 | Hanuman | so each user can configure how they want their spam filtered |
| 22:00.13 | tensai | Bradipo: with a bit of training. I configure the threshholds and they basically just push "Delete as Spam" or "Recover from Spam" |
| 22:12.25 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@byu147238wks.byu.edu) |
| 22:15.55 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 22:28.05 | Bradipo | Thanks for the opinions on SpamBayes. |
| 22:28.32 | Bradipo | I actually use bmf on the server side, but it's difficult to get it integrated for clients. |
| 22:31.04 | *** join/#utah bytheway (~bbythewa@gibraltar.deseretbook.net) |
| 22:35.26 | hans | Jayce^: so you're going to be late? 10:00am? |
| 22:35.40 | Jayce^ | ? noooo... I'm going to be early.. |
| 22:35.54 | Jayce^ | looks liek somebody modified the page.. |
| 22:37.24 | Jayce^ | the history doesn't show who made the change |
| 22:37.49 | HarleyPig | Sounds like somebody with access to the server. |
| 22:37.57 | Jayce^ | nah, it's a wiki |
| 22:38.03 | Jayce^ | an open wiki |
| 22:38.09 | HarleyPig | Oh. |
| 22:38.33 | HarleyPig | So I could write "Jayce^ gives Harleypig his tickets" and it'd be public? |
| 22:39.30 | Jayce^ | untrue, but public |
| 22:39.58 | HarleyPig | :] |
| 22:40.14 | HarleyPig | I'm just a gigolo ... and everywhere I go, everybody knows the part I plaaaaay |
| 22:40.33 | Jayce^ | man, that's an old one |
| 22:40.41 | Newsome | is everyone still trying to get tickets? |
| 22:40.53 | HarleyPig | Even older than you think ... I'm listening to Louie Prima. |
| 22:40.59 | Jayce^ | heh.. tickets were sold out long ago |
| 22:41.00 | HarleyPig | Newsome: No, just fantasizing. |
| 22:41.05 | Newsome | This is for ROTK on Wednesday, right? |
| 22:41.15 | Jayce^ | tuesday night :) |
| 22:41.17 | Newsome | so, did you get tickets? |
| 22:41.18 | Newsome | ah. |
| 22:41.19 | Jayce^ | we get it early |
| 22:41.29 | HarleyPig | I could go an do a fan dance on Jayce^ lawn until he gives me his tickets. :> |
| 22:41.30 | Jayce^ | trilogy tuesday |
| 22:41.56 | Newsome | I'll wait for the 12:40pm showing on Wed. No need to pay extra so that I can't get sleep :) |
| 22:42.02 | HarleyPig | I'd tell all your neighbours ... they'd force you to do it, just to protect their kids sanity. |
| 22:42.20 | HarleyPig | Newsome: You don't understand ... that's the only day they're playing all three movies. |
| 22:42.34 | HarleyPig | One after the other. |
| 22:42.38 | Newsome | I can play all three movies in my family room, thank you! |
| 22:42.52 | Newsome | well, I can play two in my family room, and then go to the theater. |
| 22:42.54 | HarleyPig | The extended versions. Yeah, but there's a difference between tv and movie screen., |
| 22:42.56 | Jayce^ | Newsome, extended versions of the first two, then the early first release of Rotk |
| 22:43.12 | HarleyPig | Go dressed as frankenfurter. |
| 22:44.07 | HarleyPig | I'll go dressed as meatloaf's character. |
| 22:44.34 | HarleyPig | And I'll keep the harley y'all are gonna donate. Thanks. |
| 22:44.38 | Newsome | I take it none of you have 2 1/2 year old kids... |
| 22:46.56 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, wrong movie :) |
| 22:47.29 | HarleyPig | Newsome: I have an almost 3 yr old. |
| 22:47.47 | HarleyPig | Is there a kid's frankenfurter? |
| 22:48.00 | HarleyPig | He doesn't wear a red bustier does he? |
| 22:48.25 | levi | I hope 2.5 hear old kids aren't watching the RHPC. :) |
| 22:48.27 | Newsome | I guess it would just be too tough to find a sitter for that long, and for those hours. |
| 22:49.32 | HarleyPig | My wife would do it ... but I'd have to kiss some serious butt for a week before and after. |
| 22:50.09 | Newsome | My wife is almost more excited about RoTK than I am! It would be suicide to suggest she stay home :) |
| 22:50.16 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@128.187.244.50) |
| 22:50.18 | HarleyPig | Ah. |
| 22:57.30 | hans | what to take for a white elephant gift... |
| 23:03.04 | hans | let's see, old AT power supply, really old video card, |
| 23:06.22 | hans | excercise video from the 80s... |
| 23:06.30 | HarleyPig | Jane Fonda Works Out |
| 23:07.06 | HarleyPig | Damn. I hate chasing a bug and finding out I've gone down a false path. |
| 23:07.57 | HarleyPig | I'm in a maze of twisty logic, all spaghetti. |
| 23:08.02 | HarleyPig | Well, not all. |
| 23:08.23 | hans | old lifeguard fanny pack. old bicycle seat |
| 23:08.45 | HarleyPig | I've got a 9 year old I'm willing to give as a white elephant gift. |
| 23:09.36 | hans | too heavy |
| 23:09.42 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 23:10.02 | HarleyPig | He'd make the box move funny too. No one would want to pick it. |
| 23:10.19 | hans | old school book |
| 23:10.54 | hans | old computer manuals : |
| 23:12.22 | hans | old k6 motherboard manual, linux-from-scratch howto :) (april 2000) |
| 23:12.47 | hans | knoppix |
| 23:13.07 | HarleyPig | The knoppix dvd would be a nice tech white elephant. |
| 23:13.25 | hans | worthless C++ book (dietel and dietel) |
| 23:14.29 | brailsmt_work | dietel & dietel is soooo useless it should go in the guiness book of world records... |
| 23:14.54 | HarleyPig | heh |
| 23:14.54 | hans | "Inside the IBM PC" by Peter Norton (1986) |
| 23:15.28 | HarleyPig | In mod_perl, if I create a variable using my, is it init'd every time the subroutine is called? I seem to remember that it isn't. |
| 23:15.56 | hans | old mobo that probably doesn't work |
| 23:16.08 | HarleyPig | sounds like you have a garage sale there. |
| 23:16.15 | brailsmt_work | hans how about a modem :) |
| 23:16.18 | hans | floppy disk with dos and Liero |
| 23:16.25 | HarleyPig | Liero? |
| 23:16.25 | brailsmt_work | or sourdough starter :) |
| 23:16.26 | hans | nah, my family's using my modem. :) |
| 23:16.42 | hans | Liero is a great dos game. I can give you a floppy image if you want |
| 23:17.11 | HarleyPig | :> s'alright. |
| 23:17.31 | sjansen | This is cool: http://www.unix-girl.com/blog/archives/001269.html |
| 23:18.49 | brailsmt_work | what does it say? |
| 23:19.57 | HarleyPig | Now Hiring |
| 23:20.26 | HarleyPig | perl -e 'print char($_) for (78,111,119,32,72,105,114,105,110,103)' |
| 23:21.40 | sjansen | man ascii |
| 23:22.19 | hans | hmm, canada |
| 23:25.33 | brailsmt_work | i have a kernel projects book... :) |
| 23:25.50 | brailsmt_work | completely useless to anyone but someone who knows how computers work... or want to know... :) |
| 23:26.41 | hans | ~lart cordial cherries |
| 23:29.01 | brailsmt_work | char msg[] = {72, 105, 114, 101, 32, 77, 101, 0}; |
| 23:29.05 | brailsmt_work | :) |
| 23:29.31 | brailsmt_work | if you have soem cherry cordials you don't want, I will gladly take them off your hands :) |
| 23:38.04 | hans | anyone have a cvs commit mail script that is an sh script? |
| 23:42.46 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@dsc03-wei-ut-204-30-103-164.rasserver.net) |
| 23:51.47 | *** join/#utah spr5_ (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 23:51.59 | HarleyPig | hans, nope. sorry. |
| 23:53.13 | HarleyPig | How do I access the data the browser sends? I thought it was all put into the ENViornment variables. |
| 23:55.05 | HarleyPig | Apparently, some if it isn't. If I go to one of those "Danger! Danger Will Robinson" sites it tells me more than I can access from a straight dump of my %ENV hash. |
| 23:56.03 | *** join/#utah byron_ (~byron@dsc04-wei-ut-205-186-82-79.rasserver.net) |
| 23:56.35 | byron_ | I guess I missed out on the SCO DoS discussion last night. |
| 23:56.40 | byron_ | can anyone offer a recap? |