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| 14:35.30 | Alina-malina | is openmoko dead? |
| 14:37.13 | Alina-malina | Hello all! |
| 14:43.24 | kirun | It's... resting. |
| 14:47.03 | Alina-malina | hi kirun:) |
| 14:47.06 | Alina-malina | how are you doing? |
| 14:47.11 | Alina-malina | I have a couple of questions, can you help me? |
| 14:47.37 | kirun | I may not be able to help, but maybe somebody will if you ask. |
| 14:47.43 | Alina-malina | ok |
| 14:48.14 | Alina-malina | I would like to connect to my phone and try to see the protocols running, and see my location with my cellphone, is that possible? |
| 14:55.47 | kirun | There is a DBUS interface to the GPS: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Ogpsd |
| 14:57.08 | Alina-malina | i dont have a gps on my phone, i need something to see the local location |
| 14:57.09 | kirun | There's also http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#GPS for seeing it *on* the phone |
| 14:57.30 | kirun | Wait, what phone do you have then? |
| 14:57.55 | Alina-malina | android phone |
| 15:01.37 | Alina-malina | what is this channel about? |
| 15:03.18 | kirun | The Openmoko project to create phones that are free hardware and software... |
| 15:03.49 | kirun | It crosses over a little as some people run Android on the hardware, or run the software on other phones |
| 15:04.06 | Alina-malina | what about gsm protocol? is there any linux distro available for it? |
| 15:06.11 | kirun | In most cases, the GSM hardware is a binary blob kernel module, in order not to have 9001 regulators hovering over you. |
| 15:07.14 | Alina-malina | how i can connect to that? |
| 15:10.03 | kirun | I'm not really familiar with the detail of the low level stuff, sorry. |
| 15:10.08 | PaulFertser | kirun: i doubt it's kernel module usually |
| 15:10.16 | PaulFertser | kirun: in android they have "RIL"s that run in userspace. |
| 15:10.26 | kirun | ^ listen to this guy instead |
| 15:11.02 | Alina-malina | PaulFertser, i see, for example if i want to ping to gsm station of my local operator what i will need for that? |
| 15:11.20 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: if you're running android on some random android phone you can take a look at many apps that report current GSM Cell ID (LAC/CID) and then use openbmap database or some other cellid database to try to estimate your location. |
| 15:11.38 | Alina-malina | wow |
| 15:12.02 | Alina-malina | PaulFertser, i dont know the model of the phone, it is some cninesse phone |
| 15:12.31 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: ping a gsm station? Ahem, i'm afraid i do not know any generic way. |
| 15:12.41 | Alina-malina | PaulFertser, is there anyway i can see that gsm cell id? |
| 15:12.52 | Alina-malina | in console mode |
| 15:13.32 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: yes, i suppose there's android API for that. But luckily i've never used Android so i can't tell. I know google appstore has some ready-made applications that retrieve it, so the API is definitely there. |
| 15:14.27 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: btw, greetings to Armenia from the kalinka-malinka country ;) |
| 15:14.35 | Alina-malina | :)) |
| 15:14.43 | Alina-malina | actually it is not the kalinka-malinka countr |
| 15:14.46 | Alina-malina | *country |
| 15:14.48 | Alina-malina | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:14.53 | Alina-malina | kalinka-malinka:) |
| 15:15.04 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: yes, that's why i'm sendings greetings from me to you :) |
| 15:15.13 | Alina-malina | oh russian?:) |
| 15:15.16 | PaulFertser | Yep |
| 15:15.24 | Alina-malina | Привет:) |
| 15:15.41 | PaulFertser | Привет :) but English only here please :) |
| 15:15.46 | Alina-malina | ok:) |
| 15:15.53 | Alina-malina | Here how i imagine this stuff dear PaulFertser |
| 15:16.16 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: here's the API: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/telephony/gsm/GsmCellLocation.html |
| 15:16.24 | Alina-malina | i want to mount my android phone to my linux/debian pc and watch how the gsm protocol works, i want to see what is in there play with protocol |
| 15:17.02 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: oh, then no way here. And also there's no single GSM protocol. It's an awful hell of a lot stack of nonsense... |
| 15:17.33 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: if you're really interested, take a look at OpenBSC, OpenBTS and other related projects to have a peek inside. |
| 15:17.43 | PaulFertser | Beware the dragons |
| 15:17.51 | Alina-malina | what dragons? |
| 15:18.05 | Alina-malina | BTS is very expensive, i cant offord it:) |
| 15:18.25 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: meant this in ironical sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons |
| 15:19.05 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: there was an amazing talk by Silvain who made a Calypso phone imitate a BTS. |
| 15:19.06 | Alina-malina | :) you mean it is not safe to play with that stuff:)? |
| 15:19.24 | Alina-malina | yes? the polish stuff right? |
| 15:19.33 | Alina-malina | that turned to be china crap? |
| 15:19.38 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: no, i mean GSM is uber-complicated and for the majority of mere mortals is an unexplored territory. |
| 15:20.20 | Alina-malina | i see, i thought to give it a try:) |
| 15:24.30 | Alina-malina | so you dont know any gsm tools right for android or linux? |
| 15:25.03 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: i know gsm-related tools for GNU/Linux but i do not see how they might be related here. |
| 15:27.08 | Alina-malina | PaulFertser, what they do? |
| 15:27.18 | Alina-malina | what is their point? |
| 15:33.40 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: i know e.g. about gammu/wammu, are they not gsm-related enough? |
| 15:34.14 | Alina-malina | never heared of them. Dear PaulFertser do you know if i install openbts and connect my phone to it, will i get something? |
| 15:36.36 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: you can't just install OpenBTS, you need some hardware, e.g. USRP. |
| 15:39.07 | Alina-malina | can i just connect my phone and work with it? or i need the USRP definitely? |
| 15:46.26 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: are you really sure you want to dig stuff as complicated as GSM? I'm afraid we're talking about different things, you seem to be having a different idea of what GSM is. |
| 15:47.21 | Alina-malina | dear PaulFertser all i want is to connet my phone and for example when i am calling i want to see what is happening in console, or i want to see my cell location etc that basic stuff, i dont want to become a gsm engineer |
| 15:49.13 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: for cell id i've already provided you with a reference to the official Android API, you can easily write several lines of Java code to access it. |
| 15:49.40 | Alina-malina | oh, sorry, are you sure this program will work with any cellphone operator? |
| 15:49.42 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: and "what is happening" is a rather broad description. |
| 15:50.12 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: it'll tell you lac and cid if your RIL (android's name for gsm modem library) supports it, operator doesn't matter. |
| 15:51.13 | Alina-malina | how i can check if it support? It is some chinese phone, where i can look for it in my device? |
| 15:56.34 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: just start some app that's using it. |
| 15:57.18 | Alina-malina | :) how i can know what app using it? |
| 15:57.39 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: http://www.google.com/search?q=android+show+cell+id&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 |
| 15:58.37 | Alina-malina | PaulFertser, ok just a moment |
| 16:05.58 | Alina-malina | it is downloading.....just give me a couple of minutes |
| 16:08.05 | Alina-malina | ok, now i install it and it show me numbers |
| 16:08.30 | Alina-malina | but no latitude and longitude it is 0.0 |
| 16:09.13 | Alina-malina | i have the network type, i have fsm cell id and gsm location area code, also mobile country code, mobilte network code country operator thats it |
| 16:09.57 | Alina-malina | interestintg the gsm cel id is changing |
| 16:14.10 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: ok, now all you need is a gsm cell id database. Probably there's no free data for you area. |
| 16:14.38 | Alina-malina | what if i make that database myself? i can travell all over town and fix the numbers and there you go a DB:) |
| 16:18.49 | Alina-malina | or generate numbers and put them with maps? |
| 16:26.46 | PaulFertser | Alina-malina: yeah, that would be cool if you extend the database. Better do it with GPS of course. |
| 16:27.26 | Alina-malina | is this program online running, like if i walk some 200m away from my location, this number will be changed right? |
| 16:28.40 | Alina-malina | i think i can do that, just need to setup python to work with that cellid info software |
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| 19:30.56 | Alina-malina | Anyway i`ve heared some stories that there are billion dollar technics that gorevnemnt owns and can track all radio activity and listen to all phone calls, is that true? I read that stuff on wiki, i understand a couple of things and i am wondering if there is really 3-4 people in the worldthat understand gsm from top to bottom |
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| 20:32.13 | ndnihil | unless you encrypt your comms, and do it well, yes, uncle sugar can listen in |
| 20:32.36 | Alina-malina | what are comms? |
| 20:32.44 | ndnihil | communications |
| 20:32.59 | Alina-malina | how i can encrypt my cellphone if it is signalling all the time to BTS? |
| 20:33.06 | Alina-malina | my location |
| 20:33.37 | Alina-malina | ndnihil are you from India? |
| 20:33.40 | ndnihil | oh they'll still be able to get your location |
| 20:33.45 | ndnihil | that's just the nature of RF |
| 20:33.53 | ndnihil | and no I'm not |
| 20:34.01 | ndnihil | do I type with an accent? |
| 20:34.21 | Alina-malina | yes, thats why i was wondering about that. :) No i thought your name is Nihil, it is sounds like Indian name sorry |
| 20:34.39 | ndnihil | its latin |
| 20:34.44 | Alina-malina | ok |
| 20:34.58 | Alina-malina | What about satelittle internet? Do you use it? |
| 20:35.02 | ndnihil | you're not the first to make that connection though |
| 20:35.08 | Alina-malina | :) |
| 20:35.18 | ndnihil | nope, I don't do much with satellite anymore |
| 20:35.24 | Alina-malina | why? |
| 20:35.32 | ndnihil | cost vs. benefit |
| 20:35.47 | ndnihil | too much of one, not enough of the other |
| 20:36.01 | Alina-malina | i see |
| 20:36.14 | Alina-malina | and gsm stuff? What about it? |
| 20:36.20 | ndnihil | what about it? |
| 20:36.21 | ndnihil | it's gsm |
| 20:36.24 | ndnihil | the old standby |
| 20:36.50 | ndnihil | it's not the channels you want to encrypt, it's the communications themselves, end to end |
| 20:37.09 | Alina-malina | Is it possible to hack into gsm internet? like 3g or gprs? |
| 20:37.35 | ndnihil | anything is possible |
| 20:37.55 | ndnihil | but really, you need to figure out of all the time and effort put into things is worth the payoff |
| 20:38.17 | Alina-malina | so you are android developer right? |
| 20:38.24 | ndnihil | do you really want to spend months or years writing code just for a few moments of giggling with your friends? |
| 20:38.35 | Alina-malina | :) ofcoarse not |
| 20:38.40 | ndnihil | amongst other things, yes I've done some android dev |
| 20:39.11 | Alina-malina | so you are in this chanel thats why i asked about gsm, this is like android gsm channel right? |
| 20:39.23 | ndnihil | nope |
| 20:39.25 | ndnihil | not even close |
| 20:39.30 | Alina-malina | so what is this? |
| 20:39.40 | ndnihil | this is the channel for the openmoko phones |
| 20:39.44 | ndnihil | full on linux phones |
| 20:40.02 | ndnihil | I just installed debian on my gta02 a while back |
| 20:40.07 | ndnihil | full proper debian |
| 20:40.12 | Alina-malina | what is gta02? |
| 20:40.21 | ndnihil | same as I run on my desktop, laptop, etc... |
| 20:40.25 | ndnihil | it's a phone model |
| 20:40.31 | ndnihil | also known as the freerunner |
| 20:41.04 | Alina-malina | so what it gives you? |
| 20:41.13 | Alina-malina | You also can install the ubuntu for mobile right? |
| 20:42.23 | ndnihil | I wouldnt |
| 20:42.33 | Alina-malina | then why debian? |
| 20:42.36 | ndnihil | you need to manage resources better than noobuntu will |
| 20:42.59 | Alina-malina | i see, so what it really give you? |
| 20:43.23 | ndnihil | a properly open platform for mobile communications |
| 20:43.47 | Alina-malina | any examples? |
| 20:44.01 | ndnihil | of? |
| 20:44.17 | Alina-malina | for where you can use that open platform for mobile communications |
| 20:44.31 | ndnihil | you can use it as a regular phone |
| 20:44.39 | Alina-malina | but running on debian? |
| 20:44.43 | ndnihil | yup |
| 20:44.55 | ndnihil | my daily carry phone these days is an android phone |
| 20:44.59 | Alina-malina | and you can dig into gsm stuff? like pinging BTS? |
| 20:45.09 | ndnihil | but I use the moko in the car |
| 20:45.16 | ndnihil | it thinks its a cd changer |
| 20:45.24 | Alina-malina | :) |
| 20:46.02 | Alina-malina | so how yor android and this moko are communicating with each other? wifi? blutoth gsm? |
| 20:49.01 | Alina-malina | nihil are you therE? |
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| 20:56.18 | Alina-malina | ndnihil, are you there pal? |
| 20:57.36 | ndnihil | yeah |
| 20:57.39 | ndnihil | doing other things |
| 20:57.57 | ndnihil | you can make them communicate over any type of connectivity available |
| 20:58.23 | ndnihil | I use a combination of stuff I write and freely available tools |
| 20:58.30 | Alina-malina | do you know about osmocom? |
| 20:58.35 | ndnihil | nope |
| 20:58.45 | Alina-malina | ok |
| 21:00.26 | Alina-malina | ndnihil, so you are a webdeveloper or android app developer more? |
| 21:00.49 | ndnihil | I'm capable of all that and more |
| 21:00.55 | ndnihil | but I despise web work |
| 21:00.58 | ndnihil | hate it |
| 21:01.23 | Alina-malina | why? |
| 21:02.23 | ndnihil | boring, broken incompatible technologies, browser interoperability |
| 21:02.29 | ndnihil | it's all crap |
| 21:03.29 | Alina-malina | then what you do for living(if you are programming for livng?) |
| 21:08.10 | Alina-malina | ndnihil, i wish i could know how to programming in java as well, but i am not sure how to choose the right tool for it, i dont have much time for exploring the whole java toolset:) |
| 21:15.16 | ndnihil | I do lots of stuff for a living |
| 21:15.19 | ndnihil | programming is just part of it |
| 21:15.47 | ndnihil | if you want to learn how to properly program, you'll have to spend a lot of time learning |
| 22:07.34 | Alina-malina | ndnihil, i dont say idont know how to properly program, i mean i dont programming in java, it is not the same:) What you mean do lots of stuff for living? Like what for example? Maybe wecan work together? |