IRC log for #openmoko on 20090301

10:27.08*** join/#openmoko apt (i=ibot@rikers.org)
10:27.08*** topic/#openmoko is Developers, please join #openmoko-cdevel | Freerunner is in stock in some resellers. | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Quickstart | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems | Keyboard numbers for 2008.8 : slide finger up on the keyboard
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10:31.22*** topic/#openmoko is Developers, please join #openmoko-cdevel | Freerunner is in stock in some resellers. | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Quickstart | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems | Keyboard numbers for 2008.8 : slide finger up on the keyboard
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10:34.35Linkasi installed openmoocow and cow don't make noise. in terminal there is "unable to open audio no available audio device". i'm using shr
10:34.49Linkaswhat is wrong?
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10:58.53dns53how do you use dfu-util when there are more than one device detected?
10:59.30joejoedns53: via neotool (-;
10:59.59dns53yeah i should do that
11:00.33joejoeor just add parameter: --device 0x1457:0x5119
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11:03.52dns53i wonder what the other device is
11:06.22joejoein my case it was usb bluetooth dongle, but it could be anything else
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11:08.50dns53it's been a while since i had to flash anything anyway, i just use qi and a sd card but you do need to flash android to the phone
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11:13.25bazedoes anyone know when the htc magic will be available?
11:15.34PaulFert`jOERG_rw: Hm, interesting. People on ML are complaining that they are barely heard during GSM conversations. Yet calypso has AGC enabled...
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11:19.44lindi-PaulFert`: i had to set volume from 2 to 3
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11:40.08PaulFert`lindi-: Mic2 Capture Volume?
11:40.15lindi-PaulFert`: yeah
11:40.31PaulFert`lindi-: do you have cap fix applied btw?
11:40.54lindi-PaulFert`: not yet
11:41.18lindi-i got sick and haven't had time to visit the shop where they sell 100 uF capacitors
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11:42.11PaulFert`lindi-: Hm, calypso's integrated AGC should make Mic2 Capture Volume setting not that important (that is, you get the best SNR with the higher setting, but other than that it should work with any).
11:42.45lindi-PaulFert`: is there a way to disable that AGC btw?
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11:44.37PaulFert`lindi-: i think yes, but i do not remember the command right now. BTW, Joerg said that calypso deep sleep mode makes a 4mA difference, not much comparing to your overall consumption.
11:45.19lindi-PaulFert`: would be interesting to test houd disabling AGC affects buzz
11:45.44lindi-PaulFert`: since the other side keeps hearing buzz only when I am not talking and the AGC starts amplifying buzz
11:46.05lindi-PaulFert`: ok, any idea where the consumption comes from?
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11:47.01PaulFert`lindi-: that means you still have too good gsm network conditions. If you go farther, you'd probably have the other side complaining all the time, no matter whether you speak or not :)
11:47.29lindi-PaulFert`: ok :)
11:48.48PaulFert`lindi-: 35mA is still huge... I forgot who and how measured the consumption last time (probably Werner). Are you sure in your measurements, do you use a current-meter for that?
11:49.07lindi-PaulFert`: I am only reading the "current_now" sysfs node
11:49.16lindi-PaulFert`: i am still not sure if that is a reliably way to measure it or not
11:49.37lindi-s/reliably/reliable/
11:49.46PaulFert`lindi-: if you have a multimeter handy, it worth to try using that to compare.
11:50.58lindi-PaulFert`: I have but I can't figure out how to measure it when the battery is connected
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11:52.43lindi-PaulFert`: got any tips on how to do that?
11:52.46PaulFert`lindi-: do you have a lab PSU? Attaching to the battery terminals on FR itself is easy (strip the wire, bend, twist). But using the battery itself as the current source is not that easy. If you still want to use the battery as the power source, i think duck tape to attach wires to terminals is ok.
11:54.04lindi-hmm
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11:55.17PaulFert`lindi-: you can even ignore the middle terminal (you won't get columb counter readings, but you won't really need them).
11:55.23lindi-ok
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11:59.44badcloudh to the ello
12:02.08PaulFert`lindi-: once i wanted to measure current consumption of an iPAQ and it required all 7 terminals of the battery to be attached. We shaped a piece of wood with a knife and used nails instead of terminals. Installed this wooden piece in battery compartment, somehow attached the wires to the battery itself and we could reliably measure in all modes. So this is definetely doable without much effort even in much tougher conditions (7 terminals instead of 2).
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12:02.51SpeedEvilGet some copper tape, and a strip of card
12:03.17SpeedEvilcut the copper tape into strips as wide as the battery terminals
12:03.42SpeedEvilstick these strips on the card, wrapping round the end.
12:03.59SpeedEvilnow, cut off the end with scissors, and solder to the other end
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12:04.51SpeedEvilNow, cover other end in insulation tape, poke card carefully into between battery and frame, and put battery in fully
12:06.49PaulFert`SpeedEvil: good advice, i think it'll work with FR. AFAIR with iPAQ it was impossible or not practical because of the casing.
12:07.00SpeedEvilworks with 01
12:07.02SpeedEvilso should
12:07.13SpeedEvilthe bats are mechanically identical?
12:07.24PaulFert`SpeedEvil: yes
12:07.30oipatWhy doesn't openmoko have 3g support?
12:07.37SpeedEviloipat: because we hate you
12:07.51SpeedEviloipat: also, because sourcing a suitable 3g chipset proved difficult.
12:07.56PaulFert`Oh, SpeedEvil, you're now meaner than me :)
12:08.11SpeedEviloipat: vendors only want to sell to makers that are going to make >100000 phones.
12:08.12oipatSpeedEvil: ok. patent/legal issues?
12:08.29oipatSpeedEvil: ok. thanks :)
12:08.34SpeedEviloipat: they're not really interested in supporting lower volumes as they don't make significant money, and cost just as much to admin
12:08.51PaulFert`oipat: but FR has a usb host, so attaching an external 3G modem is possible.
12:09.13SpeedEviloipat: if apple is buying 10 million chipsets, and you want to buy 3000, and it costs 50 hours of their engineering time to setup both deals, ...
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12:10.07oipatMakes sence. Doesn't really matter that much to me anyways. Was just curious :)
12:10.08PaulFert`SpeedEvil: large vendors are doing their own design, based on reference. Look for Raster's mail where he explained most of this stuff.
12:10.11SpeedEviloipat: also other issues like open-source compatibility raise their heads. You can't actually buy many of these chipsets from 'normal' vendors, you have to talk to the maker - who will only deal in large volumes. Add other issues - power and space needs, and it gets nasty
12:10.31SpeedEvilpaulproteus: I mean chipset as in the chips, not modules
12:11.10rasterwiuth 3g
12:11.13rasteru either buy modules
12:11.15SpeedEvilPaulFert`: Anyway - the point holds - though makers do do some of their own designs, the parts they design with may well not be readily available.
12:11.17rasterwhich are pricey
12:11.27rasteror u buy a reference design and make it al lyourself off the design
12:11.30SpeedEvilraster: and large
12:11.33rasterthis requires much higher skill than a modulke
12:11.42rasterits cheaper ... EXCEPT the entry price tag
12:11.53rasterthe entry price to use a design is high
12:12.03rasterthey may chharge $1,000,000 just to get your foot in the door
12:12.09rasterthat is just to get the design
12:12.14rasterbefore you can even make 1 unit
12:12.20rasterTHEN they will also charge per unit too
12:12.21SpeedEvilthe rights to the design
12:12.23rasterless than a module
12:12.26rasterso if a module is $100
12:12.38rastera per unit royalty may be $20, $30 or $40
12:12.41rasterdepending
12:13.02rasterso you need your $1,000,000 before you make a single product
12:13.06rasterthats a LOT of mulah
12:13.08rasternow
12:13.15rasterlets say you expect to sell 20,000 units
12:13.28rasterthats a lot more than gta02's sold is my guess
12:13.31rasterbut lets be generous
12:13.36SpeedEvilWhich means that $1M/50 is the number of phones you need to breakeven on that decision
12:13.40rasterlets assume $20/unit royalty
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12:14.06rasterthats STILL $70/phone
12:14.17SpeedEvilminus the price of the module vs chips
12:14.23rasterand thats how the big boys do it
12:14.36raster(nokia, motorola, samsung, lg, sony-ericsson etc.)
12:14.40rasterbut they dont make 20,000
12:14.43SpeedEvilThough of course, this hurts much less if you're nokia.
12:14.46rasterthey make 10,000,000
12:14.50rasterwith the same reference design
12:14.56rastersone u make 10mil
12:14.59SpeedEvilAs you pay that $1M first, and make 30 models of phone with aht one.
12:15.09rasterthe cost of a 1mil "entry fee" averages out at $0.10 per unit
12:15.19SpeedEvilAnd next year you make another 30, slightly more downmarket.
12:15.20rasterso really you pay less than $21 per unit
12:15.21SpeedEvil...
12:15.26rasterwhere om would pay $70
12:15.44rasterrememebr that in the hw biz to allow for brekage, warranty, margin, design costs and production costs
12:15.48rastertake any hw base cost
12:15.51rastermultiply by 3
12:15.54rasterand thats retail
12:15.59rasterif u really are top notce in quality
12:16.01rastermaybe x2
12:16.06SpeedEvilAdded to the fact you'll be paying also _lots_ more for hardware - maybe 2.5* that of nokia, due to volume as well.
12:16.10rasterso om have to add $210
12:16.18rasternokia have to add $62
12:16.35rasterand nokia do this much more - so their quality and ability to produce working phones is higher
12:16.43rasterso really they just need to add maybe $40 in retail
12:16.46rasterom need to add $200
12:16.50rasterthats a pretty unfair game
12:17.06rasterjust to make the same thing (with 3g-chipset-wise stuff)
12:17.11SpeedEvilGotta find someway to cheat usually
12:17.21rasterSpeedEvil: not even accoutning for the rest of the device
12:17.27rasteri am even being generous here
12:17.38rasteronly covering licensing costs
12:17.45rasternot actual production costs
12:17.56rasterand the only way to "hceap" is a module
12:17.58SpeedEvilI disagree with the above - in that at that price point, you might choose modules, not integration.
12:17.58rastercheat
12:17.59rasteri mean
12:18.06SpeedEvils/price/volume/
12:18.11rasterSpeedEvil:  of course!
12:18.31rasteri am just takeing the example of "if everyone says "but nokia ship 3g on cheeap phones! what dont om!"
12:18.37SpeedEvilyeha
12:18.40rasteryou cant play that game on a level playing field
12:18.47rasterit just doesnt apply due to low volumes
12:18.59rasterso you are driven to the "buy a module" world anyway
12:19.12rasterif u buy a module prices are hgovering in the $100/unit land anyway
12:19.15SpeedEvilFor some stuff, it's almost cheaper to employ people to buy cheap phones and strip them :)
12:19.24rasterbut unlike a "use a ref design 3g" u dont have the $1m upfront
12:19.27SpeedEvilraster: at 5k?
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12:19.43rasterSpeedEvil: depends who u buy it from
12:19.57rasteri have seen them for > 250eur in lots of 100
12:20.03SpeedEvilraster: random question. Do you happen to know of DECT module suppliers?
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12:20.18rasteri have heard rumors of some as low as $70 inf u buy a few k
12:20.31rasterbut thats is COSt price
12:20.40rasteractual cost of integrating a module onto your board
12:20.48rasterthe wiring costs
12:20.54rastersoftware costs? (unknown)
12:21.14rasteras for dect - nup
12:21.44SpeedEvilYou might be able to somewhat finesse the retail margin - go down to 100% markup or lower - if you ship direct to end-users in a low-cost manner.
12:21.46PaulFert`raster: Hey, another random question :) How're you, having fun at home again?
12:22.01SpeedEvilThat utterly relies on 'word of mouth' though.
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12:22.25rasterSpeedEvil:  yes. that helps. the less betwene u and retail price the customer pays - the less it has to be padded
12:22.47rasterbut low volume is the enemy to competing in the 3g world with the big boys
12:22.50rasterpretty simple
12:23.00rasterunless your customers will be happy to pay $900 per phone
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12:23.08SpeedEvilOpen-source 3G SDR stack!
12:23.11SpeedEvil:)
12:23.12rasterif u accept the device will be outrageously expensive
12:23.14rasteryou can do it
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12:23.29rasterthe other problem is also ensuring u ave an open hw interface to it
12:23.31SpeedEvilCover it in diamonds!
12:23.39rasterthat alonw already trims down the options
12:23.48rasterSpeedEvil:  to be hoest - that almost makes sense
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12:23.53SpeedEvilraster: I know
12:23.56rasterif u are going to make it fuck-arese sepxnesive due to components
12:24.02SpeedEvilraster: it's one market for some of my stuff I'm contempleting.
12:24.04rastermay as well justify it by making it gold plated anyway
12:24.08rasteretc. etc.
12:24.13SpeedEvilraster: cases cost - in low volume.
12:24.16rasteruse the top of the line in materials
12:24.20rasterjustify its silly price tag
12:24.26SpeedEvilraster: a waterproof/... case doesn't actually cost that much more.
12:24.31rasterand yes
12:24.34rastercases are expensive
12:24.36rasterin low volume
12:24.45rasterat one point u are better off just getting it cnc milled
12:24.49rastercompared to a plastic mold
12:24.51SpeedEvilraster: or cheat
12:25.05rasterPaulFert`: doing good here :)
12:25.07rasterbusy tho
12:25.07SpeedEvilraster: find a mobile with a suitable widely available replacement case, and buy 1000 from ebay
12:26.43rasterSpeedEvil: that is an option
12:26.46rastertho even then - not cheap
12:26.50rasterand it really limits u
12:26.56rasterad u now also need the screen int he right place
12:26.59SpeedEvilyes.
12:27.04rasterall internals wired out to the exact same places
12:27.05rasteretc.
12:27.10SpeedEviland the buttons - you still need to make the insides the same shape
12:27.15rasteryup
12:27.25rasteri'd go for the cnc mill myself
12:27.32rasterat least for a few hundred units its not too bad
12:27.42rastermaybe $20-$40 per case? even if complex
12:27.53rastermill some of it out of aluminium for strength
12:27.56rastersome bgits out of plastic
12:27.58rasterfor rf
12:28.01rastercombine
12:28.25rasterthis iof course presupposes u relented to the "well i know its going to be expensive" way of thinking
12:28.30rasteru are paying a premium for all parts
12:28.39rastercpu, ram, board, lcd, 3g etc.
12:28.44rasterwhy stry and skimp on the case?
12:29.01rasterit is the case that possibly most of all visible differentiates you
12:29.07rasterif ua re going to buy a case
12:29.10rasterwhy not just fine an oem phone
12:29.13rasterform china somewhere
12:29.21rasterthat just uses another os and "hack it open"
12:29.26rasterthen resell with linux opened uop etc.
12:29.42SpeedEvilChina may even be more 'open'.
12:29.55SpeedEvil'will you give me docs if I buy 50K phones'
12:30.05raster"whatever u want - just buy 50k"
12:30.31raster(even tho their upsteram supplier forbids passing on such docs.. if they make a sale.. happy happy.. whatever sells"
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12:34.38CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03seeseekey * r336 10/trunk/ (python-elementary/ umaf/):
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12:35.38PaulFert`raster: btw, you know "asian" mentality much better than i do, can you explain why OM TPE stuff is so untransparent and sometimes making horrible mistakes? Is it culture-specific issue or not?
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12:39.18SpeedEvilTPE?
12:39.35SpeedEviloh
12:39.54rasterPaulFert`: hmmm. where do i begin.
12:40.14rasterPaulFert`: in this regard i am not sure i'd intertwine asian and this.
12:41.17PaulFert`raster: that's why i'm asking about it, trying to understand what's going on.
12:41.37rasterwell 1. a whole hardware department that has zero to do with community or open source
12:41.45rasterthey come from and are hw enigneers from hw companies
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12:42.00rasterthey work within their team and mostly speak just chinese (mandarin - taiwanese dialect)
12:42.07rastersome speak english to a level
12:42.11rastersome better, but most work
12:42.30rasterso 1. group of people who are simply not used to doing anything in public
12:42.38rasternor doing anything community or in the open
12:43.06rastermost of them have grown up and worked in places where u are locked down with nd'as, security and the "dont you dare tell anyone what you are doing" kind of world around them
12:43.27rasterits a total cultureshock and goes entirely against everything they have learnt to do otherwise
12:43.32rasterteaching an old dog new tricks is hard
12:43.56rasternow add to this- they would hjave to learn those new tricks in a new language most of them dont know well and are not confident in...
12:45.14Keroright. # echo fic-gta01 31 >> /etc/opkg/arch.conf; opkg install gllin*ipk
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12:45.22KeroFSO 5.1 is that worthy of a ticke?
12:45.56PaulFert`raster: Ok, that explains lack of transparency in TPE HW EE department. But it doesn't explain the same about other departments and it doesn't explain horrible mistakes and stupidity.
12:47.05rasterwell u want my honest opinion?
12:47.15PaulFert`I wouldn't have asked otherwise
12:47.18lindi-PaulFert`: are there horrible hw mistakes?
12:47.24rastermanagament in om (specifically sean etc.) are NOT from the oss community
12:47.45rasterthey are not inside it - they say the things to appease - but they do not participate
12:47.59rasterthey really imho dont have a desire to either
12:48.05SpeedEvilopen code != working well with the open source community.
12:48.11rasterit is a desire to leverage the community to make money - fair enough. by all means
12:48.13SpeedEvilNessecary, but not sufficient.
12:48.20rasterbut not really "drink the koolaide"
12:48.33SpeedEvil:(
12:48.44rasterbeing open about decisions is just not in their culture either
12:48.50rasterits not in their ethos or being
12:49.04rasterno fault here
12:49.07rasterbut thats just how it is
12:49.34rastertheir decisions are theirs and will be made with or withotu community knowing or being involved
12:49.46rasterinvolving the community just will make the process lower, more painful and cumbersome
12:51.48rasternow thats a small group
12:51.50rasterthen u have software
12:51.54PaulFert`lindi-: i'll tell you about some hw mistakes a bit later. I just don't understand how a professional can do that and why it takes them like a year to admit and change something that is obviously wrong.
12:52.02rastersoftware has basically seen almsot everyone come and go over time
12:52.08rasteri can barely talk about who is there now
12:52.28rasterooh
12:52.34rasteradmitting to a mistake == loss of face
12:52.38rasterand loss of face is BAD
12:52.50rasterthats a personality + culture thing
12:53.03rasteri think =westerners are more apt to say "oops. my bad!"
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12:53.37rasteranyway - software direction at least whil i was there changed every 3 weeks
12:53.38rastertotally
12:53.45rastersome new shiny thing to chase
12:53.56rasternot based on actual reality
12:54.30rasterhow can u be transparent when u barely know what the flavor of the month is?
12:54.33lindi-hmm, i wish u-boot would show 'current_now'
12:55.07rasternot to mention i found my hands pretty tied as software technical decisions (that werre already made in existing upstream code) wer being dictated to be different by management
12:55.10rasterspecfically sean
12:55.48rasterand that means that those in softwar ecan tbe transparent
12:56.38rasteras they had only 1 choice - to do as instructed. i probably was one of the most transparent there - but i found myself pretty much caught between community and talking with you - knowing just what you want and not being able to do it.
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12:58.48rasterafter over a decade of being part of the community - listeing to users and dealing with their problems - iv'e gotten good at filterign down just what they want even from a few words. but i also have had the power to DO somethnig about them
12:58.56rasteror at least "put it on the todo list"
12:59.20rasteror mull over it in terms of a bigger picture and come up with the solution to solve 20 things in one swoop.
12:59.36rasterbut i was neutered on that front
12:59.56rasteri was being told to do things i have historically found to be bad practice
13:00.02rasterand that lead to big big big problems
13:00.19rasterand i just couldnt do it
13:00.34rasterpolicy was not do do such things at least in e development - i created such policy
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13:01.08rasterthen being told to revers that policy because a non-technical person decided so. without experience in the field.
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13:01.58rasteri do not know if things have changed - i'd hope so, but i would guess a lot of lack of transparency is that i know sean doesnt like people who disagree with him.
13:02.18rasterso chances are over time the group has been chosen for people who agree and do as instructed without complaint.
13:02.37rasterthus you are less likely to see openness from such a group
13:02.39rasterthats a guess
13:03.01rasternothnig i said here is new - it's all pretty well defined by community mailing list archives
13:03.02raster:)
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13:05.09rasterof course others who are there might just not want to get stuck in the firing line between community etc. :)
13:05.16PaulFert`Yep, that explain pretty much everything. Except some real weirdness in HW. Some stuff just doesn't make sense, can't be justified by management requirements and stuff (like management doesn't say whether you need a pull-up or pull-down or change BOM without altering the scheme to make a mess or to lose track of serial numbers etc).
13:05.25lindi-raster: speaking of which, did you notice that all links to lists.openmoko.org of last summer now point to different articles?
13:06.07rasterlindi-:  nup. i dont really trawl through them. but there are other list archives around.\
13:06.23lindi-raster: yep but wiki has hundreds of links to list archives
13:06.31lindi-and now they all point to wrong articles
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13:06.43rasterlindi-: likely a technical glitch
13:06.48rasternot purposeful
13:06.51lindi-I reported this to admin-trac.openmoko.org/ a few months ago but got no response
13:06.54rasterb ut it does mean info is lost
13:07.01lindi-now admin-trac.openmoko.org does not reply
13:07.30lindi-raster: info is somewhat lost since wiki often links only to the articles without telling their title
13:07.35rasterPaulFert`: chances are theat they themselves dont know and if they do the question is lost somewhere along the way
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13:08.15PaulFert`raster: ehm, HW EE stuff doesn't know how to design properly?
13:08.33sleipnirhas anyone here setup a netconsole over usb sucessfully on the Freerunner
13:09.30rasterPaulFert`: there is a tonne of turnover in om
13:09.35rasterin personell
13:09.50rastercome back 6 mo later and chances are 50% of the people are not the same
13:10.07rasteru cant often find info as the person who did it/knows is gone
13:10.21rasterany company with high turnover is going to have a very bad time
13:10.32rasterif u are a small startup - high turnover is going to kill u
13:10.39rasteru have few proceedures and so on in place
13:10.50rasterthese proceedures and "paperwork" are what slow big companies down
13:10.54rasterbut they can handle turnover
13:11.01rastersmall co's cut corners
13:11.04rasterstartups do
13:11.22rasterthey are in a tight spot - so turnover is going to tickle all your corner-cutting badly
13:13.34rasterom needs to stem turnover on staff. its just not sustainable.
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13:13.50rasteri hope they fix it
13:16.30PaulFert`raster: now i see... Thanks for the clarifications again! :)
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13:19.01rasterdont get me wrong - i hope om succeeds
13:19.34rasterthe "open devices are a workable thing and the community and users should be given the opportunity to do whatever they like with their products" flag needs to be flown
13:19.39rasterand it needs to succeed
13:19.56rasterand if om fails thats a huge blow to the whole idea of open devices
13:20.00rastertruly open ones
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13:23.56Kerointeresting, GPS (gta01) could not get a fix within my appartment, but coming bck from outide, it's still having a fix after a few minutes.
13:24.15Kerosecond screen in the zhone gps app remains empty, what's supposed to be there?
13:24.32rasterKero: getting fix requires a lot more data xfer than keeping one
13:24.41rasterand a large stream of very slow reliable data
13:26.42Keroraster: which makes a lot of sense, but I do remember my gta01 loosing fix earlier. so it's a nice improvement (or just luck today)
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13:29.25Keroit seems to have lost fix now.
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13:34.56Kerojust recoverd fix. nice
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13:47.08badclou1apt, make everybody in the world some coffee
13:47.09aptACTION brews a nice hot cup of coffee for everybody in the world some
13:47.26badclou1apt, make everybody in the world coffee
13:47.27aptACTION brews a nice hot cup of coffee for everybody in the world
13:47.31badclou1muuch better
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13:48.18badclou1if only my freerunner could make coffee, I'd have use for it
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14:09.25CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * redb406cc5fe0 10/libfsoframework/ (8 files in 2 dirs): create MasterKeyFile
14:09.26TsaiHarryneed your help
14:10.30TsaiHarryhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Harry
14:11.10TsaiHarryyour support is very important for me
14:11.56TsaiHarryhelp me to fill the survey
14:14.55PaulFert`TsaiHarry: how's your research, how many responses have you already got and how many still needed?
14:15.24TsaiHarryI only received 70........
14:16.36TsaiHarryI hope over 100 or more....
14:16.55SpeedEvilI'd say give it up - at least here.
14:17.12rastermailing list
14:17.25SpeedEvilfew of these people actually talk, I think they bought OM, logged into IRC, and then tried holding their breath until the software was ready.
14:17.44rasteraaahahahaahahhaaahaa
14:17.48TsaiHarry..................
14:18.10TsaiHarryso people is login here for waiting?
14:18.20TsaiHarrythey can eamil to me...
14:18.24SpeedEvilI think most people have just left it logged
14:18.27rastermostly complaining actually
14:18.28raster:)
14:18.36SpeedEviland aren't actually reading it on a regular basis
14:18.38rasteror idling
14:18.44rasterhoping one day will say the magic words
14:18.50TsaiHarrytoo bad....
14:18.51raster"it's aliiiiiiiiiive!"
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14:19.34TsaiHarrythis is different with my understand when I worked for OM...
14:20.08lindi-TsaiHarry: what were you working on at OM btw?
14:20.10rasterom internally knows little of what actualyl goes on in the community
14:20.25rasterom internally knows little of what actually goes on in the community
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14:20.41rasterand if they do - they figure it out months later after much flamewar action
14:20.42raster:)
14:20.43TsaiHarryoh..I worked for OM since 2006, very early stage
14:21.17*** join/#openmoko sigi (n=sigi@105-122.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch)
14:21.43TsaiHarryso I should say sorry to everybody.....
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14:22.04rasternah - no need
14:22.13TsaiHarrybecause I sold many neo1973 and freerunner to community.........
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14:22.39rasteri dont think the blame is at your feet :)
14:22.40PaulFert`raster: btw, do you think it'd be better if OM highlighted that GTA02 is not yet ready for everyday use for "end-users" in the time of launch?
14:22.45SpeedEvilIf you were just selling stuff, it's not your fault.
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14:23.07TsaiHarrymy fault...
14:23.16rasterPaulFert`: yes. i wouldnt have done it
14:23.36rasteri wouls have said "if you get a prompt after boot... thats about as much as we guarantee"
14:23.38raster:)
14:23.39TsaiHarrybecause..I am the guy done each sales task from company...
14:23.52PaulFert`raster: but was it intentional or did Sean believed himself that it'll be ready really soon?
14:23.53rasteri go for underselling
14:24.06rasterand make sure those that do buy get what they expected or more
14:24.09rasternot the other way around
14:24.31rasterPaulFert`:  he believed
14:24.43SpeedEvilBelief isn't enough.
14:24.50TsaiHarrycorrect
14:24.50rasteractually in all reality i think it was hoped
14:25.00rasterbut saying its a developer only device would harm sales
14:25.02SpeedEvilWell - to be fair.
14:25.18lindi-raster: indeed it seems that people without skills & time seem to be buying the phones and they can only complain about things not working :/
14:25.26rasterthus say nothing and hope for the best that the "hopes" that updates will fix it
14:25.26SpeedEvilOM - with 10 or 50 times the funding might have succeeded with a _lot_ more than it's had
14:25.32rasterand indeed - updates would fix it...
14:25.45raster:)
14:26.18TsaiHarryfor a "product"...those problem should not happen...
14:26.36rasterSpeedEvil:  om with the same funding and a few different people would have succeeded with a _lot_ more.... :)
14:26.54SpeedEvilraster: I agree
14:27.00rasterom' initial software tries were pretty attrocious
14:27.03rasterat gta01 time
14:27.12rasterand it needed a total fresh redo
14:27.21raster(you know the first ones)
14:27.21SpeedEvilraster: however - 2007.3 or so actually more-or-less worked
14:27.26raster(pre 2007.x)
14:27.30rasteryeah
14:27.34rasterit just needed fixing
14:27.37rasterlike labels not icons
14:27.39lindi-SpeedEvil: but it lacked the undocumented echo fix
14:27.39rasteror better icons
14:27.42SpeedEvilraster: it took a long time for the software to get back to that state after changing massive stuff
14:27.50SpeedEvila _hugely_ long time.
14:27.53lindi-SpeedEvil: and the undocumented deep sleep disable fix
14:27.53rastergsmd needed a lot of hard core stabilisiation
14:28.15rasterand kernel was below par too
14:28.19rasterbut that swas gta01
14:28.24rastergta02 incredibly complicated things
14:28.39rasterglamo alone imho cost 9 months of engineering time
14:28.54rastersimplky because suspend/resume, sdio to card, video, etc. etc. now all went through glamo
14:28.59rasterand it really just was a mess
14:29.07rasterwithotu glamo it'd be much easier
14:29.19SpeedEvilGTA01 - with some tweaks'd have been mostly adequate unfortunatley.
14:29.19rasteri rememebr suggestions
14:29.45rasterkeep 2007.x replace one app at a time, keep gsmd - fix it up. and put in solid infra betwene all of thses for glue thats currently missing"
14:29.55rasterthere was a virtual keyboard protocol
14:29.58rasteritwas a real hack
14:30.10rasterthat was improved in illumes implementation for example
14:30.28rasterbetter centralised power management too
14:30.40rasterthat still is part of fso and only partly done in 2008.x
14:30.55lindi-but illume keyboard works with only one wm so I can't use it with icewm :(
14:31.04TsaiHarryraster: do you still developing OM project?
14:31.05rasterbut really u had unstable kernel, unstable drivers, unstable userspace, and veryt little solid infra
14:31.17rasterthus - why it didnt take 2 or 3 months from gta02 release to "stable os"
14:31.44rasterTsaiHarry: ummm... not really - i just try stuffon my gta02 every now and again - but frankly the hardware is just too bad :(
14:31.57raster2g just is useless to me as a phone
14:32.10rasterthe indented screen is annoying and loses a lot of screen touch space
14:32.24rasterand i have never had it reliable enough in its suspend/resume to bother more than toying
14:33.01rasterand realistically - i have much bettre hw with me
14:33.05rasterthats not from om
14:33.16rasterits got stable kernels
14:33.21rasterand much more horsepower
14:33.26rasterhigher resolution screens
14:33.28rasteretc.
14:33.35rasterand the design is nicer
14:33.43TsaiHarryhehe...
14:33.58rasterom as a distro is very far from upstream oe/angstrom
14:34.16rasterand i'm in the game of supporting lots of devices with lots of hardware, screens etc.
14:34.42rasterbut as time goes on my gta02's just spend more tiem turned off
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14:35.43rasterwhat i do eventually finds its way back into om - but i'm not involved in that - i work for different people with different priorities :)
14:36.52TsaiHarryraster: what's your email?
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14:39.10rasterTsaiHarry: raster@rasterman.com :)
14:39.14rasterok
14:39.19TsaiHarrycool
14:39.32rasteri'd love to see someoen produce some actually GOOD hardware
14:39.37rasterlike modern stuff
14:39.42rasteromap3530 maybe
14:39.46rasterthats open
14:39.48raster3g
14:39.49rasterwifi
14:39.56rasterall the things the nerds really want
14:39.59rasterbig screen
14:40.02rasterkeyboard
14:40.04TsaiHarryoh~ where can buy one??
14:40.10rasterbut still small enough to fit in a pocket
14:40.13rasteri wish
14:40.18rasteri've been looking into it
14:40.27rasteri have an idea of what is needed - the components
14:40.37rasterhow to minimise software work (build on work elsewhere)
14:40.38lindi-raster: 3g stuff is probably not easy without having to pay a lot of patent rojalties?
14:40.42rasterbut the problem is basically the usual
14:40.44rasterneed cash
14:40.54rasterlindi-: i know. :) trust me. i've looked
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14:41.05rasteri have an idea of what it might cost and what can be done
14:41.35lindi-raster: and if something breaks there we are probably not given source code even under NDA
14:41.43rasternever
14:41.47rasterthats will NEVER happen
14:41.52rasterwell not for the gsm firmware
14:41.52lindi-so fixes like moko11 firmware won't be possible
14:42.04rasterthat will just never happen
14:42.13lindi-never say never ;)
14:42.21rasterin the end the best u can hope for is all driver componets in or above the kernel are open
14:42.33rasterbut like all hardware these days
14:42.45rasterit runs some level of software (Firmware)
14:43.00rasteras such - if theres a bug in that - consider it a silicon bug u can fix without solder
14:43.02rasterbut no more
14:43.12rasterand it wont happen due to regulation
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14:43.18rasterand regulation is thanks to govt + telcos
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14:43.21rasterit wont change
14:43.27lindi-raster: but we got moko11 fix?
14:43.39rasternot in the time any company can stay alive in to try make it 100% open
14:43.55rasterlindi-: and if u get a 3g module with firmware that has bugs - fixes can happenh
14:44.11rasteru need to make sure u get a 3g module from a supplier that will allow re-diistribution of a firmware fix
14:44.16rasterthan canbe flashed with an open os
14:44.23rasterso choose your 3g chip wisely
14:44.25raster:)
14:44.27rasteranyway
14:44.31rastersleepy bo bo's time
14:44.37rasterland of nod for me
14:44.37SpeedEvilNight.
14:44.39rasterniteo!
14:44.53SpeedEvilnox: no, you don't.
14:44.54SpeedEviloops
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14:49.03Davethrows a snowball at raster
14:49.17SpeedEvilNot while he's asleep!
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14:52.20Dave:D
14:54.01sigiHm, I just installed shr unstable (with latest kernel) and alsa can't find any soundcard on my gta02v6, so I have no audio at all. What's up?
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14:59.50sigiJFYI: A reboot fixed my "no sound" problem
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15:11.22CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07zhone * r9c204f11bfc3 10/src/zhone:
15:11.22CIA-49freesmartphone.org: Remove timer that automatically sends unsent messages
15:11.22CIA-49freesmartphone.org: This was built into zhone at a time where sending SMS was flaky at best
15:11.22CIA-49freesmartphone.org: and so resending messages that failed to send was a necessary evil.
15:11.22CIA-49freesmartphone.org: Now this is not the case any more and this "feature" does more evil than
15:11.24CIA-49freesmartphone.org: it helps. If anything we need a watchdog that keeps trying to send that
15:11.26CIA-49freesmartphone.org: particular message until it has been sent successfully.
15:12.09XVirushehe
15:12.30Zorkmanwow
15:12.43ZorkmanCVirus has evolved through the alphabet ;)
15:13.02Zorkmanand no comment by Dave on this subject yet :)
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15:15.14XVirusLOL
15:15.39CVirusDavey, we're going to be the next internet meme .. trust me :-p
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15:44.19CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * ra2131fc4e6cc 10/ (12 files in 4 dirs): start with logging class
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15:51.54TsaiHarrygive me a hand... fill the survey http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Harry
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16:04.57Daveslaxxin
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16:10.27slaxxinSuperdave
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16:11.23slaxxinsigi try an older kernel
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16:14.25Dave:D
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16:29.54Karlooopenmoko
16:31.18TsaiHarryhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Harry give me a hand fill the survey!!! thanks
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16:39.55|Marco|.org ?
16:40.38Karlooopenmoko
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16:41.37|Marco|yeah ?
16:41.45Karlooopenmoko
16:42.43Zorkmanwhat are you guys babling? :)
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16:50.47Daveopen moko moko
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17:07.11TsaiHarryhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Harry give me a hand..fill the survey :D
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17:31.47slaxxinshr works with thewr2 kernel an not the r3 kernel
17:31.51slaxxin<PROTECTED>
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17:34.52|Marco|has there been any more talk about power usage/battery life ?
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17:45.52mwester|Marco|:  no.  I think the talk is all done, it's been discussed every possible way -- now it is the time for someone to do something about it, but that activity seems pretty much stalled.
17:46.35shellevilThe simple solution is to make it consistent. Turn off after 1 hour in all circumstances, till recharged.
17:47.07mwesterAnd to be honest, I would much rather that people invest time to make the device work properly; it's quite silly for the device to run on battery for 1 month if it can't reliably resume, or if you can't answer it when it rings, etc, etc, etc.
17:47.45mwesterOf course, Openmoko is working on the gta03, so any effort would have to be done by the community.
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17:48.49mirko-parolimwester: I have to disagree
17:49.03mirko-paroliI am working on the FR and will continue to do so
17:49.11mirko-parolito make it reliable as a phone
17:49.14mirko-paroliand usable
17:50.04|Marco|mwester: I understand
17:51.42mwestermirko-paroli:  perhaps I misunderstand then; are you working on kernel and low-level userspace for power improvements (cesarb's cpu-freq stuff for example)?  I though paroli was a dialer app.
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17:52.56mirko-parolimwester: well I am not the only one working on it, you are right paroli is UI but the rest is also being worked on
17:53.17mirko-parolimwester: how can I make a UI for a reliable phone witout the rest being reliable
17:55.25mwesterok.  AFAICT, andy is doing gta03 and 2.6.29-rc-way-too-early-to-be-useful, werner has been very helpful recently, and seems to have been spending the most time of anyone on "old" products, but even his latest commits have dried up in the past week, and those we've seen are all gta03-related.  Balaji -- who knows?  He commited to get the gta01 working, but that's not yet done, I understand.  Nelson seems to work on very specific subsystems, such a
17:55.25mwesters the touchscreen, but I'm not even sure he's Om.
17:56.23mwesterSo from a community-visibility-point-of-view, we see andy's "stable" kernel broken, commits all happening on the gta03, and a mad insane rush to the latest -rc kernel sources and all the disruption to the user-space apps and users that causes.
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17:57.41mwesterIf there's someone actively working to stabilize the existing kernel on the gta02, and make it work on the gta01, it would be nice to hear a report from them -- I think there are many people who would step up to assist (look at what happened when the community and Werner worked on the serial port problems -- that should be the model for all work!)
17:59.26mirko-parolii am completely on your side here
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17:59.56mirko-parolithere is a piece of hardware which imho is not too bad
18:00.00mirko-paroliof course it could be better
18:00.09|Marco|true
18:00.12mirko-parolibut it should be exploited first
18:00.46mirko-paroliI am trying to help the exploitation along
18:01.07mirko-paroliand to move some focus on what we all have in our hands right now
18:01.38mirko-paroliso all I am saying is, that generalizing doesn't help and is not fair minded
18:01.39|Marco|mwester: as you stated: "..  or if you can't answer it when it rings .." is this in connection with dbus/wm being slow ?
18:01.52CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * re5a95ebef3c2 10/libfsoframework/ (7 files in 2 dirs): formatted log output ok
18:02.31mwester|Marco|:  that's one of the many problems.  Sometimes it won't even resume properly, other times the touch-screen is just non-responsive -- there are just a lot of different bugs and potential failures.
18:02.38PaulFert`mwester: i just booted stable kernel and it worked. Booted the latest andy-tracking and it works as well. FYI
18:03.11mwesterthe slow dbus is what has kept me from using SHR, though -- qt extended is almost as good for phone (has few other features that I like though), and it responds much more quickly.
18:03.28PaulFert`mwester: as to resume, i agree, i've seen it once or twice. It didn't resume on any event, including PWR button and USB. But it's very rare.
18:04.15mwesterPaulFert`:  I'm going by the mailing list -- where apparently stable won't build.
18:04.31PaulFert`mwester: won't build or won't run?
18:04.35mwesterPaulFert`:  "very rare" is not acceptable -- "almost never" is. :D
18:04.46mwesterPaulFert`:  the mailing list said won't build.
18:04.52|Marco|I have not seen the resume problem yet, but I have not been testing it activly.
18:05.15PaulFert`mwester: but i've just built it without _any_ tricks. Just fetch, checkout the branch and build.
18:06.11mwester"bug: Closed [worksforme]"  <---- the most infuriating status in a bug-tracker. :D
18:06.21PaulFert`mwester: Ah, it was stable-tracking that failed to build
18:07.00mwesterDon't know, I'm speed-reading the lists as I'm on another project these days and can't spend the many hours per day I used to :(
18:07.33*** join/#openmoko emacsian (n=ram@122.167.85.85)
18:07.40PaulFert`I know, the guy tried to build stable-tracking by mistake.
18:08.50PaulFert`mwester: another project == daytime job or something free software related?
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19:18.30teezettdoes this channel also handle Qtopia?
19:19.04SpeedEvilIt's anything you can get to run on your openmoko device.
19:19.10SpeedEvilAS well as the openmoko OS
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19:20.29slaxxinyes it is frustrating
19:24.14teezettbecause I installed the Qtopia and want to try syncing address data
19:24.29teezettso I installed qtopia-desktop
19:24.39rhkfinWhat's the resolution of the touchscreen sensor part?
19:24.56SpeedEvilrhkfin: in principle, it can be quite accurate
19:25.10SpeedEvilrhf: you can get 2-3 pixel accuracy IIRC - when I measured it.
19:25.18SpeedEvilwith a stylus.
19:25.30teezettbut in qtopia desktop the sync function is deactivated
19:25.42rhkfinpixel there is height/640 or width/480?
19:25.50SpeedEvilrhkfin: yes
19:26.12rhkfinthanks
19:26.17fredrinwhat pass?
19:29.11fredrinwhat tweaks should I do to a newly installed shr-unstable?
19:30.00slaxxindoes your sound work?
19:30.05slaxxinfredrin?
19:30.29fredrinnot tried yet..
19:30.50slaxxinwhich kernel?
19:31.10slaxxinlatest.bin?
19:31.58fredrinno, 28-rc4 i think
19:32.24fredrinright now i can't log into the phone :( the usb0 on my laptop wont come up, must do some resarch of what's wrong
19:33.06fredrinI installed wicd from opkg.org and think something broke
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19:38.07PaulFert`fredrin: shr should be restarted at least once to get usb networking
19:38.43fredrini just get this from dmesg
19:38.45fredrin[64185.816240] usb 6-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 2
19:38.45fredrin[64186.048188] usb 6-1: new low speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 3
19:38.45fredrin[64186.169269] usb 6-1: device descriptor read/64, error -71
19:38.45fredrin[64186.504339] usb 6-1: new low speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4
19:38.45fredrin[64186.917254] usb 6-1: device not accepting address 4, error -71
19:38.46fredrin[64187.032084] usb 6-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 5
19:38.48fredrin[64187.441166] usb 6-1: device not accepting address 5, error -71
19:38.50fredrin[64187.441612] hub 6-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 1
19:40.19PaulFert`fredrin: did you try rebooting FR
19:42.19CIA-49freesmartphone.org: 03tim.niemeyer 07framework * r75552dc873f0 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/nmea.py: ogpsd: Fix 2D/3D fix reporting in NMEA
19:42.51slaxxinpaste.bin please
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19:47.57fredrinsmall problems reboot, big problems reflash
19:49.46PaulFert`fredrin: no usb networking after first boot is a known problem, probably udev-related.
19:50.48fredrinPaulFert`: It's been working for a while, but today it did not work anymore, I think it got something to do with wicd, the only program that I installed
19:50.59fredrin*food*
19:51.00PaulFert`fredrin: oh with a usb cable
19:54.47slaxxinonly luck ive had is the r2 kernel on shr
19:54.53slaxxin.28
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19:58.00PaulFert`slaxxin: i've had usb networking luck with all the kernels i tried, including 2.6.24 and some self-compiled andy-tracking etc.
19:58.24slaxxinmee too
19:58.41slaxxinthings are a mess  as we speak
19:59.13PaulFert`slaxxin: i just compiled the latest andy-tracking and i'm using it right now.
20:00.51*** join/#openmoko fidohl (n=hl@uhweb12151.united-hoster.com)
20:01.58slaxxinpaul will u link me:)
20:02.28slaxxinis that 8608601?
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20:03.10PaulFert`slaxxin: 86247495c3d585349e2a43de416d9275a48bda8c Link you with what?
20:03.23slaxxinwhere is that kernel?
20:03.38slaxxinan thanks
20:04.35PaulFert`slaxxin: it's on my FR and on my hard drive. I compile all the kernels i use :)
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20:07.01slaxxini dont know how to compile as im just a usr
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20:10.00PaulFert`mvuets: èÍ, ÎÉÞÅÇÏ ÎÅ ×ÉÄÅÌ.... äÁ×ÁÊ ÅÝÅ ÒÁÚ.
20:10.11PaulFert`Disregard that :)
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20:16.01vininimunicode anyone? =P
20:16.41PaulFert`vininim: that's koi8-r i guess, so unicode guys are out of luck :)
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20:30.33slaxxinuImage-gta02-gc7283981_mwester-stable.bin
20:30.40slaxxinshr
20:30.44slaxxinlatest
20:32.28fredrinah, now usb networking is working again, I guess I'll stay away from wicd for a while
20:33.14fredrinslaxxin: what nice with that kernel?
20:33.15PaulFert`fredrin: i thought you ensured that usb0 on freerunner itself is properly up
20:33.57slaxxiny no white screenod
20:34.47fredrinPaulFert`: how can I unsure that?
20:34.58slaxxinwat?
20:35.13fredrinensure, lol
20:35.15PaulFert`fredrin: with ifconfig or ip commands.
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20:53.51fredrinslaxxin: i have sound, playing the latest Prodigy album on the FR now, sweet
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20:56.29fredrinbut pythm is a bit b0rked...
20:57.51PaulFert`fredrin: using the headset? Do you feel the lack of bass?
20:58.03fredrinjust using the internal speaker
20:58.21fredrinpretty good speaker to be a phone
20:58.46fredrinbut I read about the lack of bass problem
20:59.05fredrinbut plan to solve that by buying a bluetooth head set
20:59.06PaulFert`fredrin: ah, so it doesn't matter much. Don't forget that all 3.5mm-2.5mm 3-ring converters are not suitable if you decide to try headphones.
20:59.14fredrinanyone know about a good one?
20:59.59PaulFert`fredrin: i'm not sure anyone got A2DP reliably working with high quality. Probably it's ok, i don't know. Do you have a link?
21:00.40fredrinPaulFert`: not yet, I'll do some internet window shopping now :) See if I can find something
21:00.49slaxxinfredrin which kernel u useing?
21:01.09PaulFert`fredrin: i'm talking about getting decent results with freerunner and A2DP
21:01.21fredrinLinux om-gta02 2.6.28-rc4 #1 PREEMPT Sun Feb 8 19:53:16 CET 2009 armv4tl unknown
21:01.34slaxxinwhere is it ?
21:01.46slaxxinoo
21:01.51slaxxinfeb 8
21:02.12slaxxinrc4 huh
21:03.01fredrinI just took it from here one day: http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/
21:03.09*** part/#openmoko freerunnerlive (n=ernst@p57B5DF2B.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:04.17slaxxinso can u post it
21:04.25fredrinsure
21:04.33slaxxinits not there
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21:05.52slaxxinor is it the latest.bin?
21:06.23fredrinit's named uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin
21:06.28slaxxinok
21:06.56Daveslaxxin.latest
21:07.19slaxxinlol
21:07.22slaxxinDave
21:07.26DaveI call upon you!
21:07.27*** join/#openmoko daMaestro|isBack (n=jon@fedora/damaestro)
21:07.35slaxxinhere i is
21:07.36DaveHey, Da Maestro is back!
21:07.42fredrinslaxxin: http://folk.uio.no/fredrin/uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin
21:07.49fredrinslaxxin: if you  want it
21:07.52Dave:o
21:07.52slaxxinok
21:08.02Daveer du en nordmann?
21:08.06fredrinja
21:08.08Dave!
21:08.11Dave:D
21:08.12fredrini argentina
21:08.16Davehahaha
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21:18.04slaxxinwhitescreened on me
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21:18.10slaxxinMAN
21:18.25fredrinslaxxin: do you use Qi?
21:18.35slaxxinyup
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21:18.45slaxxindo i need to stop?
21:18.56slaxxinbackup?
21:19.03fredrinI had the same problem with Qi and wihtescreen
21:19.06slaxxinok
21:19.07slaxxinic
21:19.08fredrinwent back to u-boot
21:19.26fredrinbut it sucks a bit because the long suspend/resume time :(
21:19.26slaxxin<PROTECTED>
21:20.05slaxxinis there a newer Qi?
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21:20.33fredrinnewer than what?
21:20.59slaxxinis there only 1 version of Qi
21:22.13fredrinnah, looks like more http://people.openmoko.org/andy/
21:23.47fredrinGTA02 -> qi-s3c2442 is the one
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21:28.27PaulFert`slaxxin: http://git.openmoko.org
21:32.52fredrinany cool splash screens out there?
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21:41.50fredrini don't think SHR likes Qi so much
21:42.22PaulFert`fredrin: what's wrong with SHR?
21:42.45fredrinit wont suspend now that i switched to qi
21:42.52fredrinnot sure why
21:43.20fredrineven if i push the power button and click on the suspend icon it wont suspend
21:43.28PaulFert`fredrin: does GSM work?
21:44.03PaulFert`fredrin: please check GSM functionality
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21:44.22slaxxinmaybe reboot 1 time
21:44.24xotahi! anybody knows if I can install openmoko over a ks20?
21:45.04PaulFert`xota: what's ks20, what's openmoko?
21:45.06fredrinI'll start with the reboot
21:46.25xotaPaulFert`: ;?
21:46.53PaulFert`xota: please clarify your question. What is "ks20" and what is "openmoko"?
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21:48.27xotaopenmoko a OS for mobile devices and ks20 a LG mobile phone?
21:49.14mwesterxota:  the short answer is: No.
21:49.58fredrinPaulFert`: does not look like it
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21:50.23xotamwester and the long answer? ;)
21:50.28PaulFert`xota: there is no OS called "openmoko" at all. BTW, does ks20 have a working Linux?
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21:50.40PaulFert`fredrin: GSM doesn't work? Ok let's investigate it.
21:51.05PaulFert`fredrin: what's the output of s3c24xx-gpio H0 and the same for H1, H2, H3?
21:51.19xotawell... openmoko is the full set: hw and sw?
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21:51.31PaulFert`xota: not at the moment
21:51.54xotawhat's then? I think that lg ks20 doesn't have a working linux
21:51.56fredrinPaulFert`: how do i check that?
21:51.59PaulFert`xota: does a working kernel fro ks20 exist?
21:52.16PaulFert`fredrin: type s3c24xx-gpio H0 and provide me with output.
21:52.23PaulFert`xota: why do you ask then?
21:52.57xotaPaulFert`: I think no, I've just bought the ks20 terminal and like to see alternatives to WM OS, but I don't have the terminal. I will receive it next week
21:53.27fredrinI get "F0"
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21:53.42PaulFert`xota: if there is a Linux for device, then porting FSO to it will be appreciated. If there's no working kernel, you're out of luck.
21:53.53PaulFert`fredrin: What about H1, H2 and H3?
21:54.09fredrinbut maybe the problem is that the pin code dialog never poped up?
21:54.29PaulFert`fredrin: that's a consequence, not the root of the problem.
21:55.25PaulFert`fredrin: what GSM firmware version do you use btw?
21:55.38fredrinPaulFert`: :) k H1 = "0R", H2 = "1", H3 = "F1R2
21:55.41fredrinPaulFert`: :) k H1 = "0R", H2 = "1", H3 = "F1R"
21:55.43fredrin:)
21:56.07fredrinwhat is this data?
21:57.02PaulFert`fredrin: that's very important data and it looks bad. What GSM firmware version are you using?
21:57.16fredrinthe default one
21:57.18PaulFert`fredrin: can you confirm with ps ax |grep gsm0710muxd that it's running?
21:57.31fredrinbut I'm using a Norwegian sim-card in Argentina
21:57.40fredrinthe phone network here is pretty unstable
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21:58.34fredrinPaulFert`: It looks stalled:  1414 ?        S      0:00 /usr/sbin/gsm0710muxd
21:58.34fredrin<PROTECTED>
21:58.42PaulFert`fredrin: it's ok.
21:58.54PaulFert`fredrin: provide me with cat /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/dump_regs |head -2 output (only the second line is necessary)
21:59.48fredrin15 47 ff 01 00 01 00 00 02 08 6b 01 00 0a 1b 02
22:00.20PaulFert`fredrin: now issue s3c24xx-gpio H2=F
22:00.46fredrink
22:01.12PaulFert`fredrin: now what does s3c24xx-gpio H2 outputs?
22:01.27fredrinF1
22:02.30fredrinPaulFert`: could this have anything to do with switching from u-boot to Qi?
22:02.37PaulFert`fredrin: that's better :) If your pin dialog doesn't come up, kill gsm0710muxd (and it'll be restarted by frameworkd automatically)
22:03.04PaulFert`fredrin: it can be that, yes, because you're using an old kernel (and i know, that you don't compile yourself).
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22:03.45fredrinPaulFert`: K, now it suspended and killed my ssh connection, just wait a sec
22:05.21PaulFert`fredrin: it should be possible to resume by pressing power button
22:06.00fredrinyes, but the ssh connection dies
22:06.33fredrinno pin dialog, I'll do a reboot
22:06.37PaulFert`fredrin: no
22:06.49PaulFert`fredrin: if you restart, you'll lose the workaround :)
22:06.50fredrinups
22:07.56PaulFert`fredrin: ayt?
22:08.16fredrinayt?
22:08.18PaulFert`fredrin: don't try to suspend from now on while we're investigating, ok? ;)
22:08.24PaulFert`fredrin: Are You There
22:08.33fredrinPaulFert`: yupp
22:08.56PaulFert`fredrin: tell me when you're ready
22:09.46fredrinready,
22:10.18PaulFert`fredrin: so, you have ssh access and s3c24xx-gpio H2 shows F1?
22:10.59fredrinno H2 shows 0R
22:11.20PaulFert`fredrin: that means you restarted, well... Do s3c24xx-gpio H2=F again :)
22:11.57fredrinnow it says F1
22:12.26PaulFert`fredrin: ok :) Now kill ophonekitd and see if gsm0710muxd disappears after that.
22:13.33fredrinPaulFert`: ophonekitd is not runningg
22:13.47PaulFert`fredrin: check if gsm0710muxd is running
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22:14.46fredrinit is
22:15.21PaulFert`fredrin: kill it
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22:16.01fredrinkilled :)
22:16.32PaulFert`fredrin: check again it's not running and start it manuall "gsm0710muxd -v"
22:17.25fredrink
22:18.03PaulFert`fredrin: well, pastebin the output
22:20.45PaulFert`fredrin: you can kill it if you like btw, it'll produce the output indefinetely.
22:21.30fredrindid that
22:21.37PaulFert`fredrin: hm, i'm now sure s3c24xx-gpio H1=F is also needed
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22:22.03fredrinhttp://pastebin.com/m60113b72
22:22.35fredrinshould I set that before I start gsm071muxd?
22:23.05PaulFert`fredrin: oh, it's not really needed.
22:23.39PaulFert`fredrin: just start ophonekitd and it'll ask frameworkd for GSM and frameworkd will start gsm0710muxd and it'll work. You pastebined the good output.
22:24.44fredrinThis is with H1 = F1
22:24.44fredrinhttp://pastebin.com/m1bb96dcd
22:25.11PaulFert`fredrin: the same good output
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22:26.22PaulFert`fredrin: i suggest you to add these commands to your startup scripts (it's better to do for both H2 and H1) before ophonekitd is started. I guess it'll make GSM (and suspend :) )work.
22:26.25fredrinone output is after I set the H1 = F1
22:27.09fredrinto set both H1 and H2 to F1?
22:27.18PaulFert`fredrin: both to F
22:27.22fredrinah, k
22:28.35PaulFert`fredrin: F means special pin function. In this case it's hardware flow control (not really needed until you upgrade your gsm firmware which is very good to do anyway) and the other is data to the modem (which is strictly necessary for bi-directional communication).
22:29.20fredrinso, if I upgrade the firmware, my problems could go away?
22:29.21fredrin:)
22:29.52PaulFert`fredrin: to make your problem go away i suggest you to add these commands to your startup scripts (it's better to do for both H2 and H1) before ophonekitd is started. I guess it'll make GSM (and suspend :) )work.
22:30.16PaulFert`fredrin: you can check right now by starting ophonekitd again.
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22:30.59fredrinit seg faulted
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22:31.15PaulFert`fredrin: export DISPLAY=:0
22:31.20PaulFert`fredrin: and then start it :)
22:32.11fredrinof course :)
22:32.25PaulFert`fredrin: still segfaults?
22:32.41fredrinnope, and pin dialog came
22:32.54fredrinsweet
22:33.09PaulFert`fredrin: cool, thanks for interactive debugging session :)
22:34.22fredrin:) thanks for the help
22:34.44PaulFert`fredrin: don't forget to modify your bootscripts to include this workaround.
22:35.03fredrindoing it now
22:35.20PaulFert`fredrin: that's a kernel issue, it doesn't initialize the lines properly. Fixed in new versions that didn't reach the distributions yet.
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22:36.50fredrinPaulFert`: in what file should i put the workaround?
22:37.05PaulFert`fredrin: before ophonekitd start.
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22:37.16PaulFert`fredrin: i'm not an SHR user, so i don't know exactly.
22:37.32fredrink
22:37.49PaulFert`fredrin: you can add it to the frameworkd startup file (look in /etc/init.d/)
22:40.18fredrinok
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23:28.15DaveOpenmoko: TRANSFORM!
23:28.52CViruslulz
23:45.59slaxxinTRANSFORMING
23:49.01Railertransform into something usable, please like a cell phone
23:54.46fredrinmrmoku|away: lol for the workaround for fixing e high cpu usage
23:54.57moo---_it will be very usable
23:55.04moo---_after there is a working webkit browser
23:55.11fredrinhttp://blog.shr-project.org/2009/03/time-for-testing.html

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