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| 01:39.57 | broedge | i'm looking for a a780 kernel which provides console, dialer and power management. am i too demanding? or is therwe one? atm i test the gpe r14 with angstrom and it seems to have the first criteria... but |
| 01:42.06 | cibomahto | rwhitby: Hi Rod, I noticed an issue with Mokomake on my machine- the location of dfu-util and the name of the devel image are different than what is set in the Makefile |
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| 01:42.34 | rwhitby | cibomahto: ah, yes. I need to fix that. |
| 01:42.44 | cibomahto | rwhitby: I reported it at the project page (http://projects.openmoko.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=41&group_id=11&atid=125), but i'm not sure if that gets looked at, so I wanted to mention it to you as well |
| 01:42.57 | rwhitby | thx |
| 01:43.21 | rwhitby | I'll try and get to it today. |
| 01:43.38 | cibomahto | rwhitby: Ok, cool :-). Is projects.openmoko.org a good place to report issues? |
| 01:43.58 | rwhitby | yeah, I just need to get it to notify me :-) |
| 01:44.01 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:45.44 | cibomahto | Ok, thanks |
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| 03:39.46 | mwester | mickey_away: what are the ramifications of changing neod to use "apm -s" instead of writing "mem" to /sys/power/state ? |
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| 03:51.59 | SpeedEvil | apm is another process - that AIUI does a ioctl on /proc/apm |
| 03:52.04 | SpeedEvil | apmd |
| 03:52.53 | SpeedEvil | I think they then - on the neo - kick off the same process |
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| 06:23.52 | mwester | new neod, and some apm scripts on http://moko.mwester.net/ --- if they work right, the gta01 should stay suspended longer with fewer unsolicited messages while in suspend mode. |
| 06:24.09 | mwester | Still some resume problems exist, and there are a few race conditions that need to be closed up. |
| 06:24.29 | simarillion | Can somebody tell me why there are TWO 3d accelerometers LIS302DL in the freerunner? |
| 06:24.44 | mwester | But I'm hoping we can at least finally get closer to answering the question "How long might the battery really last when used as a normal phone?".... |
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| 07:19.32 | ScaredyCat | mwester: does any of this change the charging ? |
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| 07:23.42 | ScaredyCat | my neo battery totally flat this morning while plugged into usb |
| 07:25.06 | raster | i sat on it |
| 07:25.09 | raster | i made it flat |
| 07:27.56 | ScaredyCat | you must be fat |
| 07:28.04 | ScaredyCat | to make it flat |
| 07:28.07 | raster | phat man |
| 07:28.08 | raster | phat |
| 07:28.11 | josch_ | let us emerge a new kind of jokes - raster jokes |
| 07:28.21 | raster | :) |
| 07:28.23 | josch_ | how many rasters do you need to screw in a lightbulb? |
| 07:28.30 | raster | 17 |
| 07:28.44 | ScaredyCat | 17 northerners |
| 07:28.46 | raster | or maybe |
| 07:29.00 | raster | "Depends howmany reefers they have had" |
| 07:29.15 | raster | or maybe just |
| 07:29.17 | raster | "yo momma" |
| 07:29.19 | raster | :) |
| 07:29.24 | josch_ | -.- |
| 07:29.35 | josch_ | i /love/ sunday mornings! \o/ |
| 07:29.39 | raster | hahaha |
| 07:29.43 | ScaredyCat | none, it's a hardware problem |
| 07:29.52 | josch_ | ScaredyCat, bwhahaha! |
| 07:29.53 | josch_ | :-D |
| 07:34.06 | raster | i love hardware problems |
| 07:34.08 | raster | they are my friends |
| 07:34.16 | raster | ... |
| 07:34.18 | raster | NOT |
| 07:35.08 | CVirus | Good Morning people |
| 07:35.46 | raster | CVirus: moo |
| 07:35.56 | CVirus | boo |
| 07:37.07 | raster | shrieks and runs for cover |
| 07:37.19 | CVirus | hehe |
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| 08:26.19 | craig2008__ | what is openmoko? and also can I make money off of openMoki? |
| 08:27.38 | raster | ? |
| 08:28.11 | ewon | lawl |
| 08:28.33 | CVirus | wtf ? |
| 08:28.50 | CVirus | echo "troll off" > craig2008__ |
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| 08:31.11 | raster | why would u ask if u can make money from it if u dont even know what it is? |
| 08:31.20 | raster | and for that matter... making money is up to you |
| 08:31.29 | raster | not for others to figure out for you |
| 08:31.31 | raster | :) |
| 08:34.00 | craig2008__ | ya but i'm just putting it out there. |
| 08:34.35 | craig2008__ | things with open in them are often free and involve source code. |
| 08:35.12 | CVirus | omfg |
| 08:35.15 | CVirus | lulz |
| 08:35.25 | CVirus | craig2008__: are you being stupid just for teh lulz ? |
| 08:37.35 | craig2008__ | no i'm so real that fake butter wont even faze me. |
| 08:40.29 | raster | craig2008__: and what has that got to do with making money? |
| 08:41.01 | CVirus | craig2008__: looks like you don't know much about the interbutt |
| 08:41.57 | craig2008__ | no I don't ride the butt network. |
| 08:41.58 | raster | CVirus: isn't it the unternude? |
| 08:42.00 | raster | i mean come on |
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| 08:42.14 | raster | it only exists as a porn-transfer-protocol really |
| 08:42.31 | CVirus | lol |
| 08:42.39 | craig2008__ | ptp?? |
| 08:43.26 | raster | indeed |
| 08:43.29 | raster | PTP |
| 08:43.37 | CVirus | lulz |
| 08:44.26 | craig2008__ | what's a troll on echo? |
| 08:45.28 | raster | echo? |
| 08:45.48 | CVirus | craig2008__: man echo |
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| 08:46.11 | craig2008__ | man echo |
| 08:46.40 | CVirus | fuck off |
| 08:47.30 | raster | is confused and goes back to wondering were in this 7300+ line c file to sneak in grouping arrangement |
| 08:48.47 | CVirus | resumes what he was doing |
| 08:48.51 | *** join/#openmoko jzoef (n=jozef@145.116.2.90) |
| 08:49.03 | craig2008__ | openmoko confuses me as to what use there is for it. when I have a mobile device I want the processing and storage served and my device to be simple as a dumb terminal. |
| 08:49.39 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@85.233.59.8.static.cablesurf.de) |
| 08:50.56 | craig2008__ | Does anyone remember April 20th? It was a pretty remarkable day. |
| 08:51.34 | raster | openmoko is a company |
| 08:51.46 | raster | it is also a software distribution based on openembedded |
| 08:51.58 | raster | this distribution is targetted for 2 hardware devices |
| 08:52.08 | raster | a prototype (gta01) i.e. neo1973 |
| 08:52.18 | raster | and a freerunner (gta02). |
| 08:52.24 | raster | gta01 was out and sold - but out of stock now. |
| 08:52.32 | raster | gta02 is in final hardware production stages |
| 08:52.38 | raster | and should be for sale soon |
| 08:52.55 | raster | it is a device with a phone, wifi, bluetooth, vga screen, 400mhz samsng cpu etc. etc. |
| 08:52.59 | raster | u can read the specs yourself |
| 08:53.14 | raster | what the device does - is up to you |
| 08:53.19 | raster | its an open software platform |
| 08:53.42 | raster | u can program it from th every ground up so it isnt just "write a small java applet for your phone" platform that 90% of phones are |
| 08:53.59 | raster | unlike wince/windows mobile u can also entirely replace core bits of the OS, Ui etc. easily |
| 08:54.05 | raster | with all source provided for you to do that |
| 08:54.10 | raster | it's up to you what you make of it |
| 08:54.19 | raster | so u need a different mindset |
| 08:54.28 | raster | dont think of it the way u think of a normal phone |
| 08:54.55 | raster | think of it as a device opening the door to limitless possibilities only limited by your imagination and programming skills |
| 08:55.09 | polz | raster: and the hardware :> |
| 08:55.15 | josch | well said - let us archive this in the wiki somewhere :-) |
| 08:55.25 | raster | (and well the usual hardware limitations like you only have so much ram, flash space, pixels on the screen, etc. etc.) |
| 08:55.37 | craig2008__ | what I really want is a single device to use as a competitive higher quality camera and video recording device, portable audio player, gps all in one unit. It can take seperate batteries if it has to and have wi-fi internet. As an added bonus it should act as a taser for self defense. |
| 08:55.45 | raster | every device has limitations - hardware-wise |
| 08:55.49 | polz | really feels like trolling right now |
| 08:55.54 | raster | freerunner and neo1973 are no exceptions |
| 08:56.04 | raster | but unlike everything else - artificial software limits are NOT imposed |
| 08:56.12 | josch | freerunner lacks the taser iirc :P |
| 08:56.21 | raster | josch: hardware limit :) |
| 08:56.30 | polz | that's true. And the official developers are extremely helpful. |
| 08:56.51 | raster | yeah - we tend to tell you if something is broken hardwae-wise |
| 08:56.52 | raster | and how |
| 08:56.57 | raster | we dont covering it up |
| 08:57.02 | raster | or if software is not complete |
| 08:57.07 | raster | or whatever |
| 08:57.18 | raster | we strive to make sure you know what it is you are getting |
| 08:57.18 | polz | craig2008__: you forgot that it should also contain an anti-gravity thruster so you can use it as a skate-puck |
| 08:57.22 | josch | raster @ nerdrage :P |
| 08:57.28 | raster | this is NOTan iphone competitor |
| 08:57.35 | raster | we are not tyring to be |
| 08:57.51 | raster | so dont expect the most cutting edge amazing hardware for cheap |
| 08:57.53 | polz | raster: when is gta03 supposed to come out ? |
| 08:58.03 | josch | polz, lolol |
| 08:58.04 | raster | we dont have the purchasing power in volume to do that |
| 08:58.21 | raster | polz: one thing we dont talk about is future product spcs and reelase schedules |
| 08:58.23 | josch | polz, |
| 08:58.26 | raster | :) |
| 08:58.31 | josch | hehe |
| 08:58.35 | craig2008__ | sersiously a camera that takes like 8mega pixels and also acts as a flash light. |
| 08:58.40 | raster | u may see some specs for possible hardware discussed on our open hardware list |
| 08:58.42 | swetland | nobody sane does |
| 08:58.45 | josch | especially release schudeles :P |
| 08:58.50 | raster | craig2008__: we have no camera |
| 08:58.54 | swetland | (discusses unreleased/future products) |
| 08:58.56 | polz | raster: oh, come on, gta01 was announced 1 year in advance, gta02 - about 6 months in advance |
| 08:59.06 | raster | polz: that was a stupid idea |
| 08:59.14 | raster | polz: and gta02 was announced even before gta01 was selling |
| 08:59.18 | raster | it was a most STUPID move |
| 08:59.22 | raster | utterly idiotic |
| 08:59.24 | craig2008__ | is anyone willing to part with their brain and donate it to me? |
| 08:59.26 | raster | and we regret doing it |
| 08:59.39 | raster | craig2008__: megapizelsis a myth |
| 08:59.39 | polz | raster: I think it was announced about a week after gta01 started selling |
| 08:59.48 | josch | the neo became more and more like the duke... |
| 08:59.53 | raster | craig2008__: unlss u have a mazzive lend and huge sizes ccd to match |
| 09:00.04 | raster | 1-2mpixels on the lens u find in a normal camera is more than enough |
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| 09:01.15 | swetland | sadly the megapixel war has come to cameraphones too and you see more and more of these tiny sensors with far more pixels than you really need or want on devices that really don't have the processing power to effectively chew on images that size. |
| 09:01.49 | raster | the lens and ccd sizes are your biggest enemies |
| 09:02.08 | raster | if your ccdis small u simply end up with blur as light is nver perfectly focused on the ccd |
| 09:02.25 | raster | so its useless having more pixels than u can usefully distinguish when next to eathoehr and focused |
| 09:02.49 | raster | then u need a big enough lens/aperture and focal length to properly focus on the ccd anyway |
| 09:02.56 | raster | and frankly the physical size of a phone limits this heavily |
| 09:03.02 | raster | unless u want a phon the size of a DSLR |
| 09:03.03 | raster | :) |
| 09:03.13 | raster | so really 1-2mpixel is overkill already |
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| 09:19.43 | jzoef | hi, i am looking for a linux phone that i can buy and write software for. Does anything exist atm? |
| 09:19.57 | doc|work | jzoef: if it did we might not all be here |
| 09:20.24 | jzoef | i mean, i looked at neo(sold out) and greenphone (discontinued) |
| 09:20.36 | doc|work | the freerunner is due to be released soon |
| 09:20.53 | doc|work | neo = dev version of the freerunner |
| 09:21.18 | jzoef | oh cool. |
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| 09:34.56 | flaushy | jzoef: take a look at motorola, they have the u9, the a780, the razr v8 and v9 |
| 09:35.04 | flaushy | different platform tho |
| 09:35.13 | flaushy | the freeruner will be available soon :) |
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| 09:37.09 | jzoef | flaushy: yes i looked at them, can you actually program for those things? I mean, no drm, signed applications, read only filesystem? |
| 09:37.22 | edistar | jzoef: just wait another 2 months and you'll have a shiny black freerunner ;) |
| 09:38.00 | edistar | jzoef: you can install an open source distro on some motorola phones |
| 09:38.17 | flaushy | jzoef: i have a a780, didnt program for it yet (lack of time) |
| 09:38.28 | flaushy | but there is a dev program from motorola |
| 09:38.40 | flaushy | they give u an sdk afaik |
| 09:38.54 | dcordes_ | flaushy: you can use openembedded to make distros for it e.g. |
| 09:39.03 | flaushy | thx dcordes_ :) |
| 09:39.13 | dcordes_ | openmoko is one of them |
| 09:39.21 | flaushy | but prolly will start with freerunner soon |
| 09:39.28 | dcordes_ | sure |
| 09:39.38 | flaushy | dislike the idea to develop on the phone i use daily |
| 09:40.56 | flaushy | does anyone know a good linux phone with buttons tho? that has good processing power as well? |
| 09:41.43 | flaushy | (even if it is only announced) |
| 09:42.15 | edistar | flaushy: no, I think there isn't a phone that is as open as the neos are |
| 09:42.50 | flaushy | hmm, hope android and LIMO bring us farther |
| 09:42.56 | edistar | flaushy: and binary blobs are very annoying.. you end up needing a special kernel etc |
| 09:43.12 | flaushy | k thx for the warning :) |
| 09:43.14 | edistar | flaushy: no, LiMo won't help very much I think |
| 09:43.32 | flaushy | we ll see, problem is, i would like to do a project for blind ppl |
| 09:43.41 | flaushy | therefore i need some input different then touch |
| 09:44.00 | edistar | flaushy: what about a bt keyboard? |
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| 09:44.18 | flaushy | kinda annoying to carry around |
| 09:44.26 | flaushy | but in combination with a bt headset should work |
| 09:44.37 | edistar | ok |
| 09:44.48 | edistar | you could build a custom case with keys |
| 09:44.49 | flaushy | then the phone is in backpack, and small keyboard for navigation |
| 09:44.57 | flaushy | yeah, the idea is good :) |
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| 09:45.26 | flaushy | we ll see, i need to talk to the people at university first tho |
| 09:45.32 | edistar | flaushy: good luck :) |
| 09:45.41 | flaushy | :) |
| 09:45.44 | edistar | flaushy: tell the ml about your project if it's successful! |
| 09:46.03 | flaushy | pretty cool, i did have the idea of a navigation system for blind ppl (gps + cell phone) |
| 09:46.15 | flaushy | failed in idea phase, because no open GPS data is available |
| 09:46.26 | flaushy | now i found a wiki like base (openstreetmap.org) |
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| 09:46.37 | edistar | OSM is quite good |
| 09:46.50 | flaushy | and last week i found as well, that my university did a navigation for blind :) blindwalk |
| 09:46.51 | edistar | depending on where you are |
| 09:47.09 | flaushy | we ll feed the maps :) |
| 09:47.18 | flaushy | with tags for blind ppl |
| 09:47.25 | edistar | thats a really cool project |
| 09:47.29 | flaushy | a fellow student is blind :) |
| 09:47.50 | flaushy | so i ask to work on it in my free time :) |
| 09:48.13 | raster | stuff for blind ppl is hard |
| 09:48.14 | flaushy | i ll develope for blind ppl, but in the end u can use it for skating, biking etc |
| 09:48.24 | raster | i am happy i dont have to do it |
| 09:48.28 | raster | i love my pixels |
| 09:48.32 | flaushy | raster: we have a professor for accesibility |
| 09:48.35 | edistar | and it could also be a cool project for OM generally.. if you could have some control hardware (some buttons) via bluetooth then you needn't take the phone out of your pocket even |
| 09:48.39 | raster | no idea how anyone could live without seeing stuff |
| 09:48.50 | raster | i am too visual to ever even try and think about it |
| 09:48.57 | flaushy | raster: it works, but i am every day amazed again |
| 09:49.09 | flaushy | they do cooking |
| 09:49.14 | raster | am happy someone else does it |
| 09:49.15 | raster | :) |
| 09:49.17 | flaushy | tap with their fings in the pan |
| 09:49.25 | flaushy | raster: that is what i think about visual stuff ^^ |
| 09:49.36 | flaushy | i am more of an embedded person, drones etc |
| 09:49.38 | raster | hhehee |
| 09:49.45 | flaushy | robotics, so there u have same problems |
| 09:49.59 | flaushy | u have to reduce urself to their sensor knowledge |
| 09:50.03 | edistar | flaushy: you build drones? |
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| 09:50.18 | flaushy | i did some small robotic stuff in school |
| 09:50.22 | flaushy | was fascinated |
| 09:50.32 | flaushy | now i am a computer science student |
| 09:50.59 | flaushy | so i wanted to go into that direction :) |
| 09:51.20 | flaushy | and in university i learned about accesibilty, and find many parallels |
| 09:52.54 | flaushy | oh well :) |
| 09:53.03 | flaushy | i will try to get freerunners here |
| 09:53.20 | flaushy | so we do accesibilty stuff on them, and use them as freely programmable gps devices |
| 09:53.46 | flaushy | hope they ll agree :) |
| 09:54.09 | flaushy | and quite many ppl already have neos here |
| 09:55.17 | flaushy | and working again |
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| 11:18.08 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r256 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (base.py pygsm/attention.py pygsm/genericmodem.py pyneod.ini): sms send fixed |
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| 11:52.46 | thomasg_ | ScaredyCat, that's a bad joke, isn't it? http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/312bcfe18874245a7148e4d3af056255.png :) |
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| 12:02.42 | josch | thomasg_, no, no! since this: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/d1d73f48180a1ac7630e7e8905da91ea.png is real - that is also real! |
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| 12:16.23 | ScaredyCat | thos: I wanted to have a variety of colours |
| 12:16.31 | SpeedEvil | though that is faster than a gumstix |
| 12:16.33 | SpeedEvil | oops |
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| 12:16.53 | SpeedEvil | Is there a PDF reader in anyones repository? |
| 12:17.08 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 12:17.31 | SpeedEvil | notices the 6400 has an encryption engine too. Fun. |
| 12:18.52 | balrog-kun | did they figure out the deal with samsung for distributing the documentation? |
| 12:18.58 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 12:19.10 | SpeedEvil | I've sent my own application for datasheets |
| 12:19.33 | balrog-kun | i see |
| 12:19.39 | ScaredyCat | thomasg_: I also have white, blue ..etc |
| 12:19.44 | balrog-kun | i hope they don't forget this part |
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| 12:20.39 | raster | no - we have no deal with samsung on data cheet opening |
| 12:20.43 | raster | :/ |
| 12:21.01 | thomasg_ | SpeedEvil, I'm not sure if the 6400 is really what we want. the big argument for the s3c series was, that there are specs and datasheets available in public, what seems not to be the case for the 6400. TI has big datasheets and so on public for their omap3 |
| 12:21.24 | raster | right now... we are struggling to make sure we just get all the datacheets we need ourselves - not worryong about open right now |
| 12:21.27 | SpeedEvil | I don't know how free they are. |
| 12:21.48 | SpeedEvil | I know I can click on a 'apply for datasheet' link - and I've gotten some data for stuff in the past. |
| 12:21.55 | raster | thomasg_: the big arguent for s3c is that it is similar to what we have used for gta01/2 so less work |
| 12:22.04 | raster | well more so that ti+omap+... |
| 12:22.05 | balrog-kun | i remember someone saying that was a prerequisite for using the 6400 in the next design |
| 12:22.17 | SpeedEvil | I can see why that is. |
| 12:22.22 | thomasg_ | raster, for the 6400 you're right, yes (I was referring to the currently used 24xx) |
| 12:22.24 | SpeedEvil | looks at an overworked raster. |
| 12:22.38 | raster | thomasg_: aaah k |
| 12:22.43 | balrog-kun | obviously it can still wait but it would be better to know before and not have to switch the CPU late |
| 12:22.51 | raster | SpeedEvil: we are on the 64xx path now |
| 12:22.56 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. The CPU is kind of important :) |
| 12:23.01 | thomasg_ | I'd really love to see a powerful omap3 in the neo, but I also understand that this might be too hard |
| 12:23.03 | raster | and so far i have onlygotten some sparse docs on the 6410 |
| 12:23.05 | SpeedEvil | raster: is there a GTA03 design? |
| 12:23.10 | SpeedEvil | raster: ah |
| 12:23.25 | SpeedEvil | raster: the 6410 is the one with 3d - in preproduction - what about the 6400? |
| 12:23.31 | raster | no answers on bsp status and what is and isnt already supported, what we have to do ourselves and if we do somethng (eg kdrive accel) if wecan release it etc. |
| 12:23.40 | raster | yes |
| 12:23.43 | raster | 6410 has "3d" |
| 12:23.45 | raster | the 6400 has 2d |
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| 12:23.47 | thomasg_ | :) |
| 12:23.49 | raster | better than glamo's 3d by a fair bit |
| 12:23.54 | raster | err glamo's2d |
| 12:24.08 | raster | 6400 has a fairly good 2d core |
| 12:24.12 | raster | video ram is in system ram |
| 12:24.25 | raster | so at worst we can run unaccelerated dumb framebuffer kdrive and not be too badly off at all |
| 12:24.33 | thomasg_ | I guess you're planning to use low-power ddr ram, too, right? |
| 12:24.33 | SpeedEvil | So it's basically best of both worlds - apart from memory bandwidth? |
| 12:24.44 | raster | since its ddr we will have a huge step up oin software gfx compared to the 2442 on the freerunner |
| 12:24.53 | raster | thomasg_: using an mcp |
| 12:25.44 | thomasg_ | raster, so the ram is in one package with the s3c? |
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| 12:27.34 | raster | thomasg_: yes |
| 12:27.39 | raster | thomasg_: and flash |
| 12:27.52 | cb22_ | raster: say, any reason why discussions i see refer to gta04 and not gta03? |
| 12:27.53 | thomasg_ | sounds nice |
| 12:27.57 | raster | thomasg_: so it'll be 128m ddr @ 133mhz i think |
| 12:28.09 | raster | cb22_: well we skipped gta03 |
| 12:28.12 | raster | it got canned |
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| 12:28.29 | raster | so just metaly map gta04 -> gta03 (or next thing out) |
| 12:28.46 | mk | hi all.. |
| 12:28.48 | cb22_ | hehe, doing a winamp :) |
| 12:28.55 | balrog-kun | i guess 03 may be an unlucky number in one of the cultures involved |
| 12:29.14 | mk | how big is performance difference between the QEMU and actual Neo.. |
| 12:29.20 | raster | actually 4 is unlucky in asia |
| 12:29.21 | raster | :) |
| 12:29.22 | cb22_ | quite huge, i hear |
| 12:29.32 | mk | real Neo is better? |
| 12:29.33 | mjr | mk, pretty big even on high-end hardware |
| 12:29.36 | mjr | yes |
| 12:29.39 | balrog-kun | mk: very much depends on yout host |
| 12:29.53 | balrog-kun | *your |
| 12:30.23 | thomasg_ | there are hundreds of videos around that show the speed of the "real" neo, so it should be easy to compare |
| 12:30.28 | mk | my emulator running on Quad core |
| 12:30.50 | Vegar | I think qemu only runs on one of the cores |
| 12:30.52 | balrog-kun | mk: is your OS 32- or 64-bit? |
| 12:30.55 | Vegar | at least that's what it did on my laptop |
| 12:30.55 | balrog-kun | that's the main factor |
| 12:30.56 | mk | yes.. |
| 12:31.06 | mjr | cores aren't exactly relevant for qemu performance, yes... |
| 12:31.06 | mk | 32 |
| 12:31.35 | balrog-kun | mk: on 32-bit qemuis much slower than ARM at 200 MHz |
| 12:31.43 | balrog-kun | on 64-bit the opposite is true |
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| 12:32.33 | mk | thomasg: I am trying to run antigrain VG .. but just a clear screen gives me only around 30fps in qemu.. |
| 12:33.12 | mk | balrog-kun: what percentage.. may be 20 or 30%? |
| 12:33.45 | SpeedEvil | raster: ah - thanks. Was just wondering if there was a GTA03 design to come out first. |
| 12:33.54 | mjr | approximately 54.1%, give or take a tenth of a percent depending on your system |
| 12:34.05 | balrog-kun | mk: two times slower perhaps |
| 12:34.06 | balrog-kun | :) |
| 12:34.45 | thomasg_ | mjr, my measurements show 53,94% - maybe you should recalibrate your tools. |
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| 12:35.11 | mjr | I just did last night - on your mother! |
| 12:35.36 | broedje | ho ho |
| 12:35.53 | mjr | broedje, welcome to the friendly openmoko channel |
| 12:35.53 | broedje | ehm....do i disturb? |
| 12:35.54 | mk | guys: what measurement is 53,94 or 54.1? |
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| 12:36.14 | broedje | arg, i wanted to the superfriendly one |
| 12:36.17 | balrog-kun | percentage |
| 12:36.20 | balrog-kun | of cheese |
| 12:36.22 | mjr | mk, it's not, it's an arbitrary number trying to demonstrate that your question as such is pretty vague and meaningless |
| 12:36.41 | SpeedEvil | It's going to be instruction mix and cache footprint dependant. |
| 12:38.30 | balrog-kun | mk: the cpu emulation alone gave me about the speed of a 60MHz ARM on a 1GHz 32-bit x86 when running prboom |
| 12:39.57 | mk | balrog-kun:thanks.. but how did you measure it.. any tools or qemu provides some command? |
| 12:40.27 | SpeedEvil | you simply run two benchmark apps |
| 12:40.40 | SpeedEvil | prboom is a doom clone |
| 12:40.52 | balrog-kun | mk: i ran prboom in qemu on my old x86 (don't have it anymore) and on the 60MHz ARM |
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| 12:41.02 | balrog-kun | http://www.numenor.art.pl/balrog/palmte/prboom-16bit-blood.jpeg <-- the 60MHz ARM |
| 12:41.37 | mk | speedevil: I dont have the real neo.. |
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| 12:42.10 | SpeedEvil | well - you ask someone to do a benchmark |
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| 12:44.02 | mk | speedevil: nope.. I m just trying to understand from the people's experience.. |
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| 12:45.23 | balrog-kun | multiply the 60MHz by your pc's clock in GHz, add a bit of overhead from flash emulation |
| 12:46.17 | mk | balrog-kun: sorry to be so dumb.. Is this 1G: 60MHZ just based on the UI experience? |
| 12:46.40 | balrog-kun | mk: on framerate on in prboom experience |
| 12:46.42 | SpeedEvil | mk: what are you trying to work out? |
| 12:46.47 | SpeedEvil | mk: speed of your app? |
| 12:47.07 | balrog-kun | but it seems to scale to my experience of the time it takes to boot openmoko on qemu-neo1973 |
| 12:47.25 | balrog-kun | and on a real neo1973 |
| 12:48.18 | mk | balrog-run: thanks for the info.. |
| 12:49.41 | mk | balrog-run: do you remember the actual framerate achieved in your test? |
| 12:50.31 | balrog-kun | mk: iirc about 10fps at 320x320 resolution 16bit colour |
| 12:51.13 | balrog-kun | enough for prboom to be fun either way :) |
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| 12:51.59 | mk | yes.. |
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| 12:55.51 | J-23 | hi |
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| 13:03.58 | neldoreth | hi there - i want to ask if someone has an idea why i do not get a authentification mail for the wiki? the mail adress should work and its not in the spam folder |
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| 13:05.10 | J-23 | thinks Neo GTA01 is too expensive and FreeRunner will be too expensive. |
| 13:05.37 | abraxa__ | neldoreth: Do you need one? I don't think I did back when I registered. Just try logging on, maybe? |
| 13:06.17 | neldoreth | i can login right, but i want to add my self in the groupsale list - and therefore i need the confirmation :) |
| 13:07.18 | abraxa__ | neldoreth: You mean you can log on but not edit? |
| 13:07.23 | neldoreth | yes |
| 13:07.32 | abraxa__ | Interesting. I didn't know that was possible |
| 13:07.40 | neldoreth | then it says: "E-mail confirmation required to edit" |
| 13:07.52 | abraxa__ | roh: Any idea what he can do? |
| 13:08.10 | neldoreth | i tried to resend one, but i never get it |
| 13:08.47 | mjr | J-23, then don't buy one |
| 13:09.04 | *** join/#openmoko spydon (n=spydon@h179n6c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 13:10.07 | neldoreth | omg i'm silly :X i get it directly in my openmoko folder but it wasnt shown as unread |
| 13:10.28 | abraxa__ | neldoreth: I'm glad you found it :) |
| 13:11.05 | neldoreth | me too :) |
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| 13:13.09 | Psi | heh, nice to see a circuit diagram in the mailing list |
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| 13:15.50 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r257 10/trunk/software/zhone/ (49 files in 7 dirs): |
| 13:15.50 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: add zhone, continuing the work on pyphone to get a bread-and-butter application |
| 13:15.50 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: we can show and be proud of. |
| 13:16.42 | *** join/#openmoko Trevinho (n=Trevi@host119-124-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:18.47 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r258 10/trunk/software/zhone/data/themes/ (Makefile.am Makefile.in): zhone: remove Makefile.in |
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| 13:23.46 | thos | ScaredyCat, such as? |
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| 13:44.19 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r259 10/trunk/software/zhone/src/zhone: zhone: find its edje in multiple locations |
| 13:45.01 | *** part/#openmoko kelvan (n=kelvan@85.127.253.141) |
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| 13:47.11 | ahven | ScaredyCat, when can I switch keyboards? :) |
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| 13:47.56 | qermit | does anyone know when freerunner will be released? |
| 13:49.06 | CVirus | qermit: /topic |
| 13:49.07 | mjr | no, but there are valid hopes for it to be RSN |
| 13:49.40 | mjr | crosses fingers |
| 13:50.07 | qermit | CVirus: oh, i haven't "some time" marked in my calendar |
| 13:50.22 | ScaredyCat | ahven: now |
| 13:50.40 | CVirus | qermit: neither do I |
| 13:50.42 | ScaredyCat | ahven: what's tat wiki link |
| 13:50.59 | ScaredyCat | thos? |
| 13:52.05 | ScaredyCat | slaps ahven |
| 13:54.22 | ahven | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Switching_Keyboards |
| 13:55.12 | ScaredyCat | ok, |
| 13:55.31 | ScaredyCat | so do all the things at the top except install 'openmoko-keyboard' |
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| 13:57.23 | ScaredyCat | then edit /etc/matchbox/session and add ',keyboard' (with no quotes) to the line starting --end-applets just before the --titlebar |
| 13:58.54 | ScaredyCat | you'll probably need my repo |
| 13:59.03 | ScaredyCat | http://buildhost.automated.it/ |
| 13:59.10 | ScaredyCat | ^^ conf file there |
| 14:00.09 | mwester | ScaredyCat: It's BROKEN! |
| 14:00.28 | ScaredyCat | mwester? |
| 14:00.29 | mwester | (Apparently the USB charge status does not survive resume...) |
| 14:00.40 | ScaredyCat | gah |
| 14:00.53 | SpeedEvil | mwester: It resumes from SMS with me |
| 14:01.13 | mwester | I wonder if it's always been like that, and we just didn't notice because nobody ever bothered to suspend the device? |
| 14:01.23 | mwester | SpeedEvil: :) That's good news. |
| 14:01.29 | SpeedEvil | mew: It's been resuming for some time |
| 14:01.34 | SpeedEvil | I mentioned it back in december |
| 14:01.44 | SpeedEvil | That it had resumed from a call for me. |
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| 14:02.29 | mwester | Well, it resumes, yes. But as soon as it resumed, gsmd would go out to lunch and not return ! |
| 14:02.48 | SpeedEvil | And worked fine afterwards |
| 14:04.14 | ahven | ScaredyCat, just wget the scaredycat.conf to /etc/opkg ? |
| 14:04.19 | ahven | and opkg update? |
| 14:04.21 | ScaredyCat | yes |
| 14:04.26 | ScaredyCat | then opkg update |
| 14:04.36 | ScaredyCat | then do your installs |
| 14:04.38 | SpeedEvil | ScaredyCat: is there an opkg-link |
| 14:05.48 | *** part/#openmoko torpe (n=joel@ax113-2-82-225-212-112.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:06.13 | mwester | SpeedEvil: So I interpret your comments as meaning that you have observed that the device retained it's charging status over suspend/resume back in December? |
| 14:06.26 | SpeedEvil | mwester: sorry - no. |
| 14:06.47 | SpeedEvil | mwester: it resumed on a call, and calling subsequently worked. |
| 14:06.59 | mwester | Oh :( That would have made it easier; just a matter of reviewing the kernel changes since then |
| 14:08.20 | *** join/#openmoko VDVsx (n=VDVsx@fwbox.uevora.pt) |
| 14:08.27 | mwester | I noticed this charging issue some time ago, and just assumed it was a panel problem; but I can confirm that the driver clearly states "idle" for the USB charge status on resume. That's not good. |
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| 14:08.56 | SpeedEvil | mwester: what does the actual hardware do though |
| 14:09.49 | SpeedEvil | supposes he should check that. |
| 14:10.03 | SpeedEvil | tries to remember where he put his USB current meter. |
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| 14:11.42 | mwester | thinks he needs a better web site to document some of these open issues and the current status of them (and who is working on them). |
| 14:12.07 | ScaredyCat | well, you are :) |
| 14:12.09 | SpeedEvil | A wiki |
| 14:12.20 | ScaredyCat | wookie |
| 14:12.36 | ScaredyCat | bugtracker |
| 14:12.38 | SpeedEvil | Yes - a trained wookie, with a database. |
| 14:12.56 | mwester | Yeah, we could add a page to the wiki, I suppose. |
| 14:13.10 | ScaredyCat | a rot13 file |
| 14:13.42 | ahven | yay |
| 14:13.43 | SpeedEvil | Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management |
| 14:13.44 | ahven | keyboard :) |
| 14:14.38 | SpeedEvil | I want a 'mash randomly with fingers, and it divines my intent' keyboard. |
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| 14:56.07 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r260 10/trunk/software/zhone/src/zhone: zhone: no seconds for time |
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| 15:57.22 | CIA-42 | freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r261 10/trunk/software/zhone/src/Makefile.am: zhone: use DESTDIR in manual install clauses |
| 16:01.58 | Mononoke | btw new version of Openmoko could work with Galileo instead of GPS ? |
| 16:02.02 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 16:02.21 | SpeedEvil | Especially given that galileo won't be up for the best part of a decade. |
| 16:02.43 | Mononoke | it is suposed to be up before 2013 :) |
| 16:02.51 | edistar_ | you'll be able to use it in 2015, then you won't have your gta02 anymore.. |
| 16:03.20 | SpeedEvil | I have more faith on GTA03 shipping by the end of the month than gallileo being up by 2013. |
| 16:03.25 | Mononoke | why 2015 ? and thinking about moko's speed of development 2013 is nice target for next version >.> |
| 16:03.38 | edistar | Mononoke: because it'll not be ready 2013, I'm sure |
| 16:04.51 | SpeedEvil | OTOH - GLONASS is up and running now. |
| 16:06.48 | edistar | SpeedEvil: and not very good |
| 16:07.08 | SpeedEvil | in combination with GPS, it can improve positioning |
| 16:07.13 | edistar | maybe, yes |
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| 17:52.17 | bmk789_ | havent seen any PVT updates in a while |
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| 18:17.19 | mwester | marvels that so many people are so desparate for the 02, when the device has no software that will run on it in any interesting way. |
| 18:17.53 | Kero | :X |
| 18:18.11 | mwester | (interesting for other than app developers, that is -- and said app developers could do just as well with qemu or the 01 for the vast majority of apps...) |
| 18:19.04 | *** join/#openmoko moveax1 (n=lutz@i577B92C0.versanet.de) |
| 18:19.38 | Kero | what do you expect me to do now, sell my 01 ? |
| 18:20.54 | cb22_ | mwester: ahem, qemu? |
| 18:21.06 | mwester | Now why would you do that, Kero? You could develop some apps with it. |
| 18:21.06 | cb22_ | tell that to my video playback |
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| 18:21.31 | mwester | cb22_: that's the "or the 01" part |
| 18:22.02 | cb22_ | and what if you need to play videos streamed over wifi? :) |
| 18:22.22 | mwester | I'm just a little taken aback by the very little work that seems to be happening on core software items (like the gsmd, the dialer, etc), while everyone just waits for the 02. |
| 18:22.45 | mwester | Like it's all gonna be so different on the 02... |
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| 18:23.19 | Kero | has to be different. those are gonna be sold mass-market, no? |
| 18:23.26 | bmk789_ | but the release of the freerunner will give the hardware and software to hundreds of developers and push development due to demand |
| 18:23.48 | mwester | tries to figure out if the last two comments there are in jest. Surely they must be... |
| 18:24.34 | Kero | is surely jesting (and disappointed, too) |
| 18:24.53 | bmk789_ | the most important thing right now is getting the freerunner out |
| 18:25.27 | mwester | let me play the devil's advocate (while a run a test on a very fundamental-yet-broken suspend feature that will affect both 02 and 01s)... |
| 18:25.30 | mwester | bmk789_: why? |
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| 18:25.56 | mwester | Nothing much happened when the 01 was introduced; why would it be different with the 02? |
| 18:26.41 | bmk789_ | because everyone wants the GTA02 because it has all the features that were known to be in the mass market device |
| 18:26.45 | *** part/#openmoko gregor (n=gregor@xdsl-87-78-23-245.netcologne.de) |
| 18:27.32 | bmk789_ | does ubuntu development speed up as more users adopt? of course, and same will be for openmoko |
| 18:27.36 | mwester | And the lack of those features prevented people from developing basic applications, and fixing fundamental problems and incomplete code in the kernel and core apps on the 01? |
| 18:28.05 | bmk789_ | those lack of features turned many developers from shelling out the money to buy the device |
| 18:28.13 | bmk789_ | equating to less development |
| 18:28.34 | mwester | There were > 1000 gta01's sold (probably several times that number), how many community developers are actively writing core software for that device? (one that I know of, perhaps two). |
| 18:28.55 | mwester | So what happened to the other 999+ developers who bought the 01? |
| 18:29.43 | bmk789_ | as userbase grows, development increases, thats a universal truth in the FOSS world |
| 18:30.17 | SpeedEvil | mwester: their GTA01s exploded, killing them. |
| 18:30.26 | SpeedEvil | It's the only explanation. |
| 18:30.44 | emdete | they liked android better or the iphone or..or.. |
| 18:30.49 | mwester | Ok, suppose I agree with that. How does that resolve any of the existing problems. Presume that we need 12 developers active. We have one, maybe two. 1000, maybe 2000 neo's were sold. |
| 18:31.27 | mwester | That means we have to wait until 12,000 02's are sold before we reach the target? |
| 18:31.27 | emdete | problem is, developers expected something else. they are missing the solid base |
| 18:31.45 | SpeedEvil | has not been writing stuff due to several reasons. Primarily income related - in that I have none - and need to do stuff that will likely help me get some. |
| 18:31.54 | mwester | is having trouble playing the devils advocate, because he wishes to agree with emdete. |
| 18:32.10 | Kero | definitely misses the trustworthyness to use the 01 as daily phone. |
| 18:32.22 | bmk789_ | if they sincerely want to get the GTA0x to mass market, the software _will_ get there, and focusing on pushing the GTA02 to production isnt a step in the wrong direction |
| 18:32.26 | unknown_lamer | I am reminded that I need to finish the clisp port |
| 18:32.28 | Kero | might have developped if it had been trustworthy |
| 18:32.38 | unknown_lamer | and set up an opkg repository with c-l-c an fancy stuff |
| 18:32.50 | mwester | bmk789_: But it is insufficient. That is my point. |
| 18:33.52 | *** part/#openmoko p3t3r__ (n=p3t3r__@wlan.net-you.de) |
| 18:36.22 | bmk789_ | I trust the software will be fixed fairly promptly |
| 18:37.28 | zedstar_ | mwester out of interest why do u think there has not been much impact from the community on core development? |
| 18:37.39 | SpeedEvil | I've said before that the community could be 6 months ahead of where it is now if there was a list of stuff that the core team was not doing. |
| 18:37.40 | mwester | bmk789_: I hope you are correct, because I think the hardware is very good (despite the graphics issues). But my fear is that I do not know where those people are who will do the software; Openmoko-the-company does not seem to have them, or they have chosen to secret them away somewhere. |
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| 18:38.02 | mwester | zedstar_: Now *THAT* is the correct question IMO! |
| 18:38.18 | Kero | can not help wonder why gsmd is not fixed in the last, mm, year |
| 18:38.22 | zedstar_ | im not sure i know the answer |
| 18:38.38 | zedstar_ | but would guess at skills shortages for those areas |
| 18:38.39 | Kero | while Neo is a phone, first place. |
| 18:38.40 | mwester | SpeedEvil is right, but I think it goes beyond that, in that as volunteers stepped up, there was nobody to give them a task that mattered, and mentor them. |
| 18:38.52 | mwester | I think the skills were all there. |
| 18:39.23 | mwester | I think they grew frustrated that their skills would be wasted, and went elsewhere with those valuable skills. Just my opinion. |
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| 18:39.34 | zedstar_ | yeh interesting |
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| 18:40.40 | mwester | gsmd is a case in point. By not killing the original one quickly, the proposed solutions grew stale and rotted, and some (literally) went underground. |
| 18:40.49 | bmk789_ | i just think the openmoko team is putting all their focus on getting the GTA02 out the door, and thats at least partly why the software may be lacking |
| 18:40.52 | mwester | We have no gsmd officially now that works! |
| 18:41.44 | Kero | so in answer to your theory, I have not gone elsewhere. I'm just using my old, rotten, moto timeport |
| 18:41.54 | mwester | I agree - and that's not a bad focus to have. But that's why I personally am concerned that some of the community may be badly surprised when the get their 02 and find that it has no different software than the 01. |
| 18:42.01 | zedstar_ | im kinda curious as the amount of code being done at openmoko HQ that we find out very late on |
| 18:43.00 | mwester | I think they've been much more open about that than they once were; it's been no secret that they have been working to get qtopia available to fill the need for a "look it's really a phone" software set. |
| 18:43.32 | emdete | that's all what i said: om should have done more base work. now with the middleware initiative is see something happen in the right direction but people are addicted from gui stuff which is not important at the beginning |
| 18:45.12 | mwester | Yeah, "GUI-first" development -- a rather common syndrome in the computer industry. "Never mind that it doesn't work, by the time we get this done, someone will have a computer/network that can actually run this!" ;) |
| 18:45.33 | emdete | :D |
| 18:45.38 | emdete | or better: :( ? |
| 18:45.58 | mwester | (and in this case, nobody has -- with the result that suspend/resume is only slightly less broken on the 02 than on the 01!) |
| 18:47.05 | mwester | But in case, enough software philosophy; my test case completed with a crash so I shall go debug some stuff. |
| 18:47.13 | ScaredyCat | wades in with sweeping accusations.. |
| 18:47.14 | mwester | s/in/in any |
| 18:47.26 | SpeedEvil | The scary part is - has enough work been done on - forex - suspend - that they can actually tell the hardware isn't broken. |
| 18:47.48 | ScaredyCat | nods furiously |
| 18:47.54 | Kero | mwester: I do think GUI should be written along with the lower layers. |
| 18:48.14 | emdete | Kero: i dont agree |
| 18:48.16 | Kero | e.g. someone wrote the gsm *firmware* and knows all detailsof statemachines in there. |
| 18:48.52 | Kero | several outside open source knackers now have to reinvent the wheel completely, which wastes an order of magnitude of effort. |
| 18:49.04 | Kero | once for gsmd |
| 18:49.07 | Kero | twice for dbus |
| 18:49.15 | ScaredyCat | 3 times for gsm |
| 18:49.16 | Kero | thrive for application and GUI |
| 18:49.23 | Kero | thrice, even. |
| 18:49.46 | emdete | whatever. but the one that wrote the fw didn't open it up |
| 18:49.47 | mwester | SpeedEvil: Yep, your example is a good one. We know that everything *individually* will suspend, and resume. What's lacking is someone to take it one level beyond, and test a rational sequence to suspend/resume, and see what race-conditions or ordering problems are in the kernel. |
| 18:50.42 | xcasex | so naturally, the issue is, HR related. right people, wrong areas. |
| 18:50.45 | mwester | And when someone considers those items, that someone would note that suspending the GSM is a problem without some other kernel support due to a nasty race condition... |
| 18:51.24 | Kero | emdete: but the one that did is in openmoko (afaik), and could have written gsmd relatively easily. |
| 18:51.36 | emdete | Kero: no, he isnt/ |
| 18:51.48 | Kero | :( |
| 18:51.54 | Kero | where is he, then? |
| 18:52.06 | emdete | Kero: he is at ti. om binds objects together, only (as far as i understood) the parser end is in source avaiable for om |
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| 18:52.36 | emdete | i would build the whole phone stack as you would build a house: bottom up |
| 18:53.19 | mwester | But to be fair, it *is* Openmoko who has the non-disclosure access to the vendor of the GSM firmware, and who could ask questions to get answers (instead I have to invest many hours of my personal time to set up experiments and empiricly (sp?) determine those answers). |
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| 18:54.08 | xcasex | mwester: agreed |
| 18:56.07 | emdete | mwester: interesting question. the signed a nda. but libgsmd has all the commands in there more or less documented (where i got the answers) - ist that allowed? |
| 18:56.18 | Kero | is an Agile SW person and is sick of "layers". |
| 18:56.48 | emdete | Kero: shure, go ahead with one big binary blob :D |
| 18:56.58 | Kero | builds feature by feature, so he at least knows what does not work, yet. |
| 18:57.34 | Kero | emdete: oh, I was sick of "monolithic" long before I got sick of "layers" :) |
| 18:57.41 | mwester | I don't know the exact legal limits, but I think if they indirectly document a command by publishing a driver with reasonable comments, they are ok. I've found the source to be a good place to start, but there are other questions I need answered. |
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| 19:00.30 | emdete | Kero: so what now? clustered? :D |
| 19:00.55 | mwester | "Object Oriented" is the buzzword. :p :D |
| 19:00.59 | Kero | "amorph modular" :) |
| 19:01.09 | emdete | mwester: same for me, so is it allowed to put these information in a wiki? |
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| 19:04.14 | Kero | I'll try it once: "a layer is an abstraction, but does not do anything useful in and of itself. Layers are a consequence, not a cause." |
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| 19:05.15 | Kero | which is not to say features do not interfere with each other and mess things up ;) |
| 19:05.16 | mwester | emdete: Don't we have all the commands in libgsmd already in the wiki (I assumed they were there) |
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| 19:06.42 | mwester | Who's doing the python gsmd replacement, and does anyone know what the status is? |
| 19:06.57 | ScaredyCat | emdete |
| 19:07.13 | mwester | Ah! (convenient, he's right here) |
| 19:08.01 | emdete | :D may be the commands from source are in the wiki already. i was missing something recently in wiki and also in source |
| 19:08.15 | mwester | Rather than hack up the existing gsmd, I'm wondering if it would be easier to add the power-management stuff to the python gsmd replacement. |
| 19:08.57 | emdete | mwester: what dies "power-management" mean? the modem sleeps at will ;) |
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| 19:10.12 | Kero | emdete: sneaky, "would build" while building :p |
| 19:10.31 | mwester | gsmd need to be alerted of an impending suspend event, and needs to grant permission for same, instruct the GSM to shut up about events we arent' interested in while suspended. On resume it needs to check why (and respond quickly for incoming events), and undo the silencing of unsolicited stuff. |
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| 19:10.53 | mwester | There are also some things in /sys that it needs to tweak and examine in order to avoid some race conditions. |
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| 19:11.52 | emdete | mwester: it's sad, that the modem does not allow pm (or psc) at muxer level which probably would solve everything together |
| 19:14.49 | mwester | I haven't consider a mux situation; would allow one to simply open a connection to the mux, and instruct the gsm directly? |
| 19:16.13 | emdete | mwester: with the muxer you have six lines to the gsm modem. pygsmd uses two, one for req/resp one for unsol. messages |
| 19:16.33 | emdete | but don't you want to wake up if a message comes in? |
| 19:16.38 | mwester | Exactly. |
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| 19:21.00 | emdete | why not? |
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| 19:22.37 | mwester | emdete: because the overwhelming majority of those events are "%CSQ" unsolicited messages, to inform you that your signal quality changed ever-so-slightly. |
| 19:23.19 | emdete | mwester: okay, those may be switched off, shure, cell change also. but sms and ring should stay |
| 19:23.41 | mwester | The only unsolicited messages we actually want while suspended are incoming calls and SMSs, and possibly when registration changes to an alternate carrier. |
| 19:24.14 | mwester | That can easily be changed by sending the correct AT commands to the GSM, and that is what gsmd needs to do before it permits a suspend to happen. |
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| 19:25.15 | SpeedEvil | And notification of battery low. If the modem can do that. |
| 19:25.36 | mwester | Is that something that the GSM should do, or the PMU? |
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| 19:25.46 | SpeedEvil | I don't think the PMU can |
| 19:25.51 | mwester | thinks it would be marvelous if the GSM can do that... |
| 19:26.02 | SpeedEvil | I think it can only do timed interrupts. |
| 19:26.11 | SpeedEvil | It's been a while since I last read the datasheet |
| 19:26.25 | mwester | So if the GSM can't do it, then we have to wake up every few minutes to check for low battery :( bummer. |
| 19:27.20 | mwester | Yikes. Each individual component is pretty close to working OK on the gta01 now, but as a "functional system" there is a lot more work than I ever anticipated. |
| 19:27.46 | mwester | power management is a rather difficult problem, I am discovering... |
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| 20:38.28 | ScaredyCat | mwester: big test now, my regular trip back to uk, lets see if it works still when I get there :) |
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| 20:50.08 | nicfer | 3G in next model? I say NO, wifi is better |
| 20:50.40 | Aria | Agreed. |
| 20:51.07 | nicfer | 3G is expensive and propietary, wifi is cheaper (even free in some locations) and uses a open standard |
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| 20:53.04 | nicfer | I think that in some years the combination of wifi/wimax will suceed |
| 20:53.28 | Aria | Why WiMax? Open standard, but licensed frequencies. |
| 20:53.32 | Aria | Or relatively open. |
| 20:54.11 | nicfer | wimax for interconecting wifi zones and as a service when you are in a travel and you don't have wifi signal |
| 20:56.10 | Aria | shrugs. Only if carriers deploy it. That'd depend on equipment. And GSM-basis systems are a strong competitor |
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| 21:34.44 | nicfer | hmmm I think the freerunner will be more a pc rather than a mobile phone |
| 21:35.04 | daMaestro | isn't that the goal? |
| 21:35.13 | Lintus | Sure |
| 21:35.22 | daMaestro | a linux based system that has support to talk via gsm |
| 21:35.25 | daMaestro | ;-) |
| 21:35.48 | Lintus | Is it possible to update display with driver to multitouch? |
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| 21:35.52 | nicfer | I think voip will replace gsm |
| 21:36.04 | anrp | replace? |
| 21:36.07 | daMaestro | Lintus, there is some information on the wiki |
| 21:36.19 | daMaestro | Lintus, however; the hardware itself is not multitouch |
| 21:36.25 | Lintus | true |
| 21:36.34 | Lintus | i just wondered would that be possible |
| 21:36.39 | daMaestro | Lintus, there might end up being a software based solution.. but nothing hardware based (at least not for the freerunner) |
| 21:36.55 | daMaestro | if someone does the software for it ;-) |
| 21:37.00 | nicfer | well wifi with voip instead |
| 21:37.08 | Lintus | i think someone does that |
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| 21:37.20 | edistar | nicfer: can you see all your friends switching from gsm to voip? |
| 21:38.15 | nicfer | the trouble is that things with gsm cannot be sold normally |
| 21:38.47 | nicfer | you need to buy it with a provider |
| 21:39.02 | Lintus | So, will gta02 be released still real soon now? :P |
| 21:39.48 | mjr | nicfer, not true |
| 21:40.00 | edistar | nicfer: what? you can buy it seperately |
| 21:40.05 | edistar | Lintus: maybe, maybe not |
| 21:40.39 | nicfer | hmmm here only you can bought them without provider, which costs a lot |
| 21:41.08 | edistar | nicfer: yeah, either you pay in your contract or you pay directly and a cheaper contract |
| 21:41.40 | nicfer | and you can't use it without provider |
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| 21:42.10 | edistar | nicfer: of course you need a sim card |
| 21:42.30 | edistar | nicfer: but you can get cheap contracts or a pay-as-you-go simcard |
| 21:43.00 | nicfer | isn't possible to run it gsmless and use wifi? |
| 21:43.12 | daMaestro | yes |
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| 21:43.40 | edistar | nicfer: it is possible, but why? it has much more potential with gsm ;) |
| 21:43.51 | nicfer | or use non-gsm based features like the music player |
| 21:43.59 | nicfer | wifi > gsm |
| 21:44.14 | daMaestro | a gsm account is not required for the hardware to function |
| 21:46.07 | nicfer | and in theory with voip you should be able to do calls |
| 21:46.46 | nicfer | as for sms, there are webpages that do the trick |
| 21:47.37 | mjr | Well, if you're gonna spend your time in reach of non-stuffed wifi access points whenever you need to call, sure... |
| 21:48.36 | nicfer | in the future, there will be wifi access points everywhere |
| 21:48.44 | nicfer | even in middle of a travel |
| 21:49.16 | edistar | nicfer: nice future.. that'll take another few years |
| 21:49.25 | mjr | nicfer, scales not so well |
| 21:50.23 | nicfer | or why not use only gsm / 3g networks and forget wifi? |
| 21:50.40 | edistar | nicfer: yeah, why not? |
| 21:51.05 | nicfer | there is no way for a 3g network to interact with wifi |
| 21:51.10 | edistar | nicfer: gsm was made to build up and keep the connection, many different wifi APs will not provide that |
| 21:52.10 | mjr | though to be fair, you can kludge around that with a vpn, but you _will_ have noticable cuts in service if changing aps anyway |
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| 21:53.14 | mjr | anyway, for me actually 3g would be mostly sufficient without wifi, but since this version is 2g, and not all places have reasonable data plans, wifi is nice |
| 21:56.39 | mjr | the latter reason is probably reason enough for future 3g models to also have wifi |
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| 22:17.57 | nicfer | well my trouble with gsm is that it is propietary |
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| 22:18.13 | nicfer | why stallman doesn't use a mobile phone? |
| 22:18.41 | abraxa_ | nicfer: Cause Stallman is a hopeless optimist and doesn't live in reality. |
| 22:18.54 | nicfer | because providers are powerfull spies |
| 22:19.09 | nicfer | they can raster your sms, calls, etc. |
| 22:19.54 | abraxa_ | You're free to establish an alternative. Good luck. |
| 22:21.02 | nicfer | but without gsm you are a uncommunicated man |
| 22:21.11 | nicfer | gsm is everywhere |
| 22:21.13 | nicfer | wifi not |
| 22:21.32 | mjr | and there are practical reasons for that |
| 22:22.00 | nicfer | wifi is an ieee standard, while gsm not |
| 22:22.52 | daMaestro | wifi uses an oversubscribed band and is only short range |
| 22:23.08 | daMaestro | wimax is rumored to be failing |
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| 22:23.27 | nicfer | there are wifi antennas that extend range |
| 22:23.31 | daMaestro | (even though [afaik] wimax would also be on licensed frequencies) |
| 22:23.38 | daMaestro | to what? a city block? |
| 22:23.41 | daMaestro | lol |
| 22:24.09 | Aria | Wifi also has major problems with blind clients. |
| 22:24.27 | daMaestro | non-LoS for wifi is pathetic, and wimax tried addressing this; but has seemingly failed |
| 22:24.30 | mjr | well, better not be more than a block, 'cause if you extend range too much with wifi technology, the network will just die :] |
| 22:24.47 | nicfer | also putting an access point in each street cross will bring internet on the go |
| 22:25.30 | daMaestro | which is not only no where near economically viable, but moreso you will be relying on mesh networking... which will end up at a crawl if public access is granted |
| 22:25.32 | mjr | it will also tank with rising user numbers |
| 22:26.20 | nicfer | BTW, why wasn't a camera included on the freerunner? |
| 22:26.35 | daMaestro | even with something like a b/g client interface and an a (wifi frequency) backbone.. you'd still end up with some nasty situations |
| 22:26.43 | nicfer | almost every mobile phone has got one |
| 22:27.00 | daMaestro | because cameras are useless? |
| 22:27.01 | daMaestro | lol |
| 22:27.03 | mjr | Because. |
| 22:27.18 | nicfer | cameras useless? then why every phone has one? |
| 22:27.23 | mjr | (dunno really, but the basic case IIRC was a handmedown from another project) |
| 22:28.28 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-189-254.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 22:30.51 | nicfer | then if wifi is so bad, then why to use it? |
| 22:31.42 | mjr | it's not bad for short-range limited client wireless comms, which it was designed for |
| 22:32.42 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-69-104-245-232.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 22:32.59 | nicfer | gsm should focus only in calls and sms |
| 22:33.12 | nicfer | for internet use wifi |
| 22:33.23 | mjr | *sigh* |
| 22:33.42 | mjr | you clearly don't understand the technologies involved, so study up before making such broad statements |
| 22:33.57 | nicfer | but then there is this trouble, how can you navigate in the web on the go? |
| 22:34.21 | nicfer | I mean, having internet access everywhere |
| 22:35.02 | nicfer | 3g is expensive and propietary, so it's discarted |
| 22:35.56 | abraxa_ | nicfer: I'm sorry but you're talking about problems we don't have. |
| 22:36.58 | nicfer | then how do you enter internet outside cities? |
| 22:37.07 | nicfer | for example, during a travel |
| 22:37.56 | mjr | unless you're talking patent encumberance, umts not very proprietary really, and if you are, wifi also has patents involved... |
| 22:38.27 | mjr | gprs currently :] |
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| 22:40.07 | nicfer | then there is the expensive thing |
| 22:40.44 | mjr | that it may be depending on how rip-off deals your provider can afford to stick on you |
| 22:41.10 | nicfer | a few of cents the kb |
| 22:41.13 | mjr | comparably cheap here, but I do realize this is a lucky area |
| 22:42.17 | nicfer | imagine entering youtube... your pockets will die |
| 22:42.42 | mjr | And indeed I did note that 3g being often expensive is a good reason to have a wifi chip in also 3g phones, but it still doesn't replace 3g data. |
| 22:43.00 | mjr | Mine won't. Flat rate. |
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| 22:58.39 | nibbler_de | the main problem of mobile data is roaming |
| 22:59.07 | nibbler_de | though there is GRX and roaming isn't terribly expensive |
| 23:00.52 | mwester | The main problem is porn. |
| 23:01.43 | mwester | If they make data cheap, and high-speed, you'll have car wrecks everywhere because instead of watching where they're going half the population will be watching porn on their phones. |
| 23:02.40 | mwester | (and what bandwidth wouldn't be consumed with porn would be spam) |
| 23:03.02 | mwester | So, +1 for high data prices on GSM from me -- it keeps it working. |
| 23:04.23 | nicfer | modern phones have got camera, why not the freerunner? |
| 23:06.03 | emdete | nicfer: its not a modern phone... |
| 23:06.24 | nicfer | the freerunner? |
| 23:06.37 | emdete | as you name it |
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| 23:07.59 | nicfer | it's awful to have our pockets too big with a camera |
| 23:08.07 | nicfer | ehm |
| 23:09.01 | nicfer | I mean that it's more practical to have all-in-one rather than separately |
| 23:10.16 | nicfer | it would also be useful for videoconferences if we have got 3g |
| 23:13.34 | nicfer | I mean, this would be useful for quick uploads of your photos to web services like flickr |
| 23:13.57 | emdete | nicfer: for an open phone platform there are much more things to solve at the base... |
| 23:14.29 | emdete | nicfer: do you own a neo |
| 23:14.31 | emdete | ? |
| 23:14.51 | nicfer | well, a solution should be making the camera an accesory for the freerunner |
| 23:14.57 | nicfer | no, I'm out of reach |
| 23:14.57 | mwester | doesn't really care for camera-phone photos... they have no contrast, poor quality, crappy color, are terrible in bright or no light... and have little place on a phone. |
| 23:15.13 | nicfer | *cough* n95 *cough* |
| 23:15.27 | daMaestro | mwester, +1 |
| 23:15.30 | emdete | nicfer: feel free, go ahead. nobody is hindering you. its a free, open phone exactly for people like you with such ideas |
| 23:16.15 | mwester | Such an add-on has been suggested, both USB and bluetooth are easily available. |
| 23:18.24 | *** part/#openmoko VDVsx (n=VDVsx@bl5-30-37.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 23:18.32 | nicfer | i'd go for usb, since it is capable of giving power to the camera and you don't need batteries on the cam |
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| 23:40.24 | nibbler_de | circuit switched datacalls would be graet - with 3g |
| 23:40.34 | nibbler_de | s/graet/great/ |
| 23:41.27 | nibbler_de | as i'm not aware of phones supporting this appart from video calls. |
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| 23:55.02 | duffyd | ScaredyCat: ping |
