| 00:00.35 | nbd | mjr: i can understand why asus is not distributing the madwifi sources |
| 00:00.55 | nbd | that would be a tricky thing to do |
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| 00:04.46 | Vegar | mjr: disappointing |
| 00:05.17 | nbd | mjr: iirc asus is using atheros' own version of madwifi, which is a tangled mess of proprietary and free code |
| 00:05.23 | nbd | it isn't just a patch against the madwifi.org version |
| 00:05.53 | egn | on the openmoko platform, is it possible to have access to the "press x key" to do something functions like voicemail/whatever, or is that handled in the carriers services? |
| 00:07.00 | mjr | Whaever, my interest in the Eep just died. Maybe if they change the wifi or the rev-eng driver gets up to speed _and_ supporting that platform's particular kinks (yeah not holding breath), _and_ they get that source business cleared out, esp. wrt. acpi |
| 00:07.34 | Vegar | egn: press/hold a key to check voicemail or press a key to redirect a call to voicemail? |
| 00:07.38 | mmontour | egn: voicemail should work. With my carrier you just have to dial a special phone number. I'm not sure about some of the other special features |
| 00:07.43 | nbd | mjr: reverse engineering work for that particular chip is in progress |
| 00:08.08 | egn | Vegar: mmontour: i mean like say someone calls me, can i program something on the openmoko side to say "press 5 to do this.. press 1 to do this" |
| 00:08.11 | mjr | nbd, ack. |
| 00:08.26 | Vegar | egn: ah, PBX-like |
| 00:08.58 | mjr | and yeah, voicemail afaik generally is just your own special phone number, at least here |
| 00:09.01 | mmontour | mjr: me too |
| 00:09.06 | egn | Vegar: yeah i believe so |
| 00:09.08 | Vegar | egn: it might be possible with software like asterisk, but I'm not sure how well it would work |
| 00:09.25 | mjr | egn, yeah, it's possible |
| 00:09.33 | mjr | or should be anyway |
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| 00:11.10 | egn | mjr: Vegar: hm alright thanks |
| 00:11.41 | egn | any idea if it would it be implimented as like an openmoko function or something? |
| 00:11.44 | egn | it would be* |
| 00:12.26 | mjr | you basically just route the audio to the SoC, play prerecorded messages to the GSM chip, detect the DTMF frequencies associated with the buttons... |
| 00:12.45 | mjr | I'm not an OM guy but I'd guess that'd be "low priority" |
| 00:12.54 | abraxa_ | lol mjr |
| 00:13.23 | egn | hmm alrighty.. sounds kinda scary |
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| 00:13.46 | abraxa_ | egn: Not really |
| 00:14.18 | egn | abraxa_: okay, well as long as its possible |
| 00:14.31 | abraxa_ | Asterisk would indeed be one way to do it, just dialer integration might be... tricky |
| 00:14.42 | egn | hmm okay |
| 00:15.25 | egn | basically i'm looking to make "dont bother me" away messages, ie. "hey, i'm sleeping, if you really need to reach me, press 5, if not, leave a message" |
| 00:15.31 | egn | anything close to that already? |
| 00:16.05 | abraxa_ | egn: A "do not disturb" mode seems quite doable to me, though not high priority indeed |
| 00:16.18 | abraxa_ | It could just be one of the phone profiles |
| 00:16.21 | egn | abraxa_: okay sweet |
| 00:16.53 | egn | thanks for the help, may be on once i get a neo... |
| 00:17.33 | mmontour | egn: A quicker hack might be to look for 3 or more calls from the same caller-ID within a short time period (with the ringer off by default) |
| 00:17.58 | egn | mmountour: ah thats not a bad idea |
| 00:18.10 | egn | and if three come through, enable ringer |
| 00:18.35 | Writchie | the feature used to be called "reject a jerk" |
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| 00:19.03 | Writchie | on some networks you can redirect an incoming call to another number on the fly |
| 00:19.15 | Writchie | redirect = divert |
| 00:20.39 | Writchie | there are some calls i'd like to just divert to the FCC |
| 00:20.56 | Writchie | but alas t-mobile doesn't support this feature on their US network |
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| 00:22.14 | webjames | hi, did openmoko just go down? |
| 00:22.29 | webjames | as in wiki.openmoko.org openmoko.com |
| 00:22.40 | webjames | buildhost.openmoko.org etc.. |
| 00:22.57 | Vegar | nope |
| 00:23.02 | Writchie | not from here |
| 00:23.13 | webjames | really? hmm.. |
| 00:23.34 | webjames | i'm getting nothing from them, but the rest of the internet works fine. |
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| 00:24.02 | Vegar | could it be a dns issue? |
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| 00:24.25 | webjames | no idea, are you saying it's my end? |
| 00:25.06 | webjames | hmm ebay.co.uk doesn't work either, but gmail.com does |
| 00:25.57 | Vegar | webjames: must be |
| 00:26.11 | webjames | how can i sort this? |
| 00:26.55 | Vegar | check if the domain names in question are resolving |
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| 00:29.10 | Writchie | webjames: ping wiki.openmoko.org then traceroute wiki.openmoko.org |
| 00:30.39 | webjames | seems to be working now. weird |
| 00:30.48 | webjames | thanks Vegar and Writchie |
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| 02:13.40 | b0ef | ehlo |
| 02:14.02 | b0ef | I just read that the gpsd for the neo requires proprietary software; is this still true and is someone working on a free driver? |
| 02:18.56 | SpeedEvil | yes for GTA01 |
| 02:19.16 | SpeedEvil | I and some other people were, however that's stopped largely as GTA02 has different GPS chip in |
| 02:22.35 | b0ef | SpeedEvil: oh, excellent;) |
| 02:22.41 | b0ef | I only care about being able to make calls without proprietary software, though |
| 02:23.06 | b0ef | I could live without GPS if it was only that that used proprietary software |
| 02:25.00 | SpeedEvil | a chip which outputs NMEA, so requires no non-free software to use. |
| 02:25.17 | SpeedEvil | In a way it's a pity - the original one is more flexible. |
| 02:25.18 | SpeedEvil | but... |
| 02:26.53 | b0ef | what format do you get from the new chip, then? |
| 02:27.55 | SpeedEvil | NMEA |
| 02:28.45 | b0ef | ah |
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| 03:46.19 | Taco | Is there anyone online who has been able to get their neo1973 to work reliably as a phone in the US (ignoring the 850 fiasco, of course)? |
| 03:51.22 | mwester | For some definition of "reliably", perhaps. But not for mine. |
| 03:51.29 | Writchie | Taco: it works Ok using qtopia and quite well from command line. major issues ATM are power management |
| 03:52.09 | Writchie | battery like is only a few hours which makes it virtually unusable as a phone |
| 03:52.22 | Taco | Thanks. Do you know which service provider works well with qtopia? |
| 03:52.45 | Writchie | you can really only use it on t-mobile since their network is 1900 |
| 03:53.05 | Writchie | you won't be able to roam into the AT&T 850 cells |
| 03:53.05 | Taco | Yes - the battery life is only ~1 day with the phone OFF, so I know it's sorta silly. |
| 03:53.43 | Writchie | once suspend/resume is working it will be usable as a phone for basic voice and very basic SMS |
| 03:53.53 | Writchie | using qtopia and probably OM as well by then |
| 03:54.10 | mwester | The "phone off" problem is fixed, but not yet incorporated into the main builds. But it lacks what is traditionally called "standby" |
| 03:54.14 | Taco | Do you need to get the 3G fix to get it to work with T=Mobile? I have both T-Mobil and AT&T SIMs and I've managed a couple of calls with the AT&T SIM, but absolutely nothing with the T-mobile SIM." |
| 03:54.59 | Writchie | all of my t-mobile SIM's work but they are a few years old. |
| 03:55.13 | Taco | That's probably the key. |
| 03:55.37 | Taco | 2op "I need to mug someone with an old cell phone. I can't get T-Mobile to give me an old SIM. |
| 03:55.46 | ljp | just dont try a usim |
| 03:55.57 | Taco | What's a usim? |
| 03:57.11 | Writchie | Taco: there appears to be a bug in the firmware that gets confused with usim's. USIMs support both 3G and GSM |
| 03:57.12 | Taco | DO you know the name of a non-main build that has the phone-off problem fixed? |
| 03:57.52 | Writchie | Taco: that bug is supposedly fixed - see the wiki - and you can arrange for a firmware update. |
| 03:58.19 | Taco | Thanks for the info! |
| 03:58.21 | Writchie | i suspect there will be more firmware updates required before everything is fully working. |
| 03:58.21 | mwester | There's none pre-built just yet (because I'm lazy, mainly). You can add the startup/shutdown script that powers off the GSM modem yourself, it's in the buzilla bug report (1003, I think?) |
| 03:58.45 | Vndmtrx | Gente, flws !! Até mais ... Farewell !! |
| 03:58.59 | Writchie | rule of them - if you haven't tested it it's probably broken. |
| 03:59.05 | Writchie | s/them/thumb/ |
| 04:00.12 | Taco | Oh, here's another thing I'm too stupid to figure out. All the lists of AT commands intended to coax the phone to life mention a PIN. What is that PIN? My SIMs have a phone number associated with them, but no PIN, so far as I know. |
| 04:00.15 | Writchie | OM hasn't yet understood verification and validation - there are signs this may soon change |
| 04:01.05 | Writchie | all phones can have a PIN - in some areas its widely used and in others never used - it whould work either way |
| 04:01.22 | ljp | theres two kinds of pins - sim and phone. |
| 04:01.24 | Writchie | there are actually two pins |
| 04:01.31 | ljp | heh |
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| 04:01.55 | Taco | So I need to go to my service provider, and find out what the PIN is? |
| 04:02.04 | ljp | you can set the sim pin and then you will need to enter it when you boot into the gui at first |
| 04:02.12 | Writchie | if you haven't used a PIN on your phone then you will be fine |
| 04:02.27 | ljp | well, in Qtoia, you can set the pin from gui |
| 04:02.44 | Writchie | and then you can loose it ;) |
| 04:02.55 | Writchie | and you will then need PIN2 from your operator |
| 04:03.17 | Taco | If I haven't used a PIN, may I just enter nothing in the various AT commands that seem to require a PIN? |
| 04:03.27 | Writchie | i wouldn't recommend playing with PINs for the first time on prototype software |
| 04:03.48 | Writchie | Taco: like what? |
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| 04:04.35 | ljp | qtopia isn't prototype software :) |
| 04:04.52 | CoreDump | not compared to OM, no... |
| 04:04.56 | CoreDump | =) |
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| 04:06.35 | Taco | Well, take for example, the recent, triumphant posting by Mikkel Andersen, where he points to a blog entry describing how he make a call. His list of commands includes "AT+CPIN="x" |
| 04:07.40 | ljp | thats hardcore |
| 04:07.45 | Taco | All the endless lists of AT commands people have posted to show how they kicked the phone into operation seem to have a PIN command like that. So what do you do if all you know if the phone number associated with the SIM? |
| 04:07.49 | Writchie | Taco: you don't need this command if the SIM hasn't been setup for a PIN |
| 04:07.57 | Taco | Great! |
| 04:08.46 | Taco | Thanks very much for your help, Writchie. |
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| 04:10.07 | Writchie | Taco: np - AT+CPIN? will tell you if you need a PIN |
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| 04:18.02 | Taco | When I issue "AT+CPIN?", I get "ERROR" as the return. Does that mean I have no PIN (I hope!)? |
| 04:18.22 | swetland | isn't CPIN? the "has SIM" query |
| 04:18.39 | ljp | in a way |
| 04:18.53 | Taco | I definately have a SIM... |
| 04:18.59 | swetland | probably does more than that. I'm totally not a GPRS radio guy. |
| 04:19.00 | Writchie | Taco: just plain ERROR? |
| 04:19.08 | Taco | Yup |
| 04:19.24 | Writchie | that's not a SIM problem. |
| 04:19.41 | Writchie | s/SIM/PIN/ |
| 04:19.55 | Taco | "ATE1" gives, "OK", so I must be talking to something. |
| 04:20.13 | Writchie | Taco: that means you are talking to the modem. |
| 04:20.14 | ljp | do AT |
| 04:20.25 | ljp | CIMI |
| 04:20.31 | Taco | "AT" gives "OK" |
| 04:20.43 | ljp | AT+CIMI |
| 04:21.12 | Taco | "AT+CIMI" gives "ERROR" |
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| 04:21.16 | Writchie | that means you sim is probably bad. |
| 04:21.32 | Taco | 2op "Is there a wikki page that describes the functions of all these AT commands? |
| 04:21.44 | Writchie | do an AT+CMEE=2 |
| 04:22.08 | Taco | "AT+CMEE=2" gives "OK" |
| 04:22.27 | Writchie | then repeat the AT+CIMI |
| 04:22.50 | Writchie | do you get _CME ERROR: xxxx |
| 04:23.02 | Writchie | s/_CME/+CME/ |
| 04:23.08 | Taco | "AT+CIMI" now gives "+CME ERROR: SIM failure" |
| 04:24.04 | Writchie | it either means an incompatible USIM or no making good contact with the SIM card itself |
| 04:24.04 | Writchie | s/no/not/ |
| 04:24.17 | Taco | This SIM sorta worked with the neo until I upgraded to 2007.2 It's been completely dead since then. |
| 04:24.40 | Writchie | that would not likely make any difference. |
| 04:25.08 | Taco | I'll try recontacting. Is there somewhere I could read up on these AT commands? Is it a well-know protocol? |
| 04:25.11 | Writchie | the sim holder is not the best design and easily damaged. |
| 04:25.25 | Taco | Yes, I sure agree with that. |
| 04:25.39 | ljp | you can dl the AT specs |
| 04:25.48 | Taco | From where? |
| 04:25.50 | ljp | for gsm |
| 04:26.14 | Writchie | http://webapp.etsi.org/key/queryform.asp |
| 04:26.49 | Writchie | GSM 7.07 7.05 7.10 and a stack of other a mile high |
| 04:27.33 | Writchie | gsm is a very deep rabbit hole - you might want to pick the red pill |
| 04:27.45 | ljp | http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/27007.htm |
| 04:27.48 | ljp | i think |
| 04:28.32 | Taco | Gee - when I originally saw AT... I thought it was just the old Hayes modem protocol! |
| 04:29.07 | Writchie | Taco: it is with extensions and extension plus extensions added to extensions. |
| 04:29.46 | ljp | http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/27_series/27.007/27007-810.zip |
| 04:29.48 | Taco | Wow! Old code never dies, no matter how brain-dead it is. |
| 04:30.36 | Writchie | would you rather use an ad-hoc API to the radio stack? |
| 04:31.02 | Taco | I gotta say, I don't think I'd be any more confused... |
| 04:31.43 | Writchie | unfortunately, to deeply understand all of the commands you need to understand much more about how gsm works internally. |
| 04:32.12 | Writchie | fortunately, its all free and open documentation. |
| 04:32.20 | Taco | I'd have to understand much more to understand very little. |
| 04:33.40 | Writchie | Taco: in practise, it will all be eventually abstracted - like qtopia, symbion, windows mobile, etc. |
| 04:34.26 | Writchie | without this clean interface, however, there would be little hope for an open platform. |
| 04:34.58 | Taco | I know it's easy to cast stones, but it's baffling to me that 4 months after the neo1973 was launched, the OM stack still doesn't really handle the GSM interface. |
| 04:35.36 | Writchie | well, a phone software stack typically takes about 1.5 - 2 years from definition to shipping product. |
| 04:36.02 | Writchie | that is by people who know what they are doing and have done it before. |
| 04:36.46 | Taco | What is it about the phone stack which is so hard? Why can't the OM folks clone what qtopia has done, which by all accounts sorta works? |
| 04:36.51 | Writchie | this 1.5 - 2 years is normally invisible - with OM you get to see it. |
| 04:37.11 | Writchie | ask ljp: how long it took qtopia to do their platform? |
| 04:38.01 | Taco | But since the qtopia stack works, can't OM build on their work? |
| 04:38.24 | ljp | long time. its still lacking stuff.. gsm and all is a heap of stuff |
| 04:38.24 | Writchie | Taco: you can run qtopia if you like. |
| 04:38.54 | ljp | when OM decided to do this, qtopia phone stack wasnt gpl |
| 04:39.39 | Taco | Yes, but I prefer OM. I'm just surprised that after so many years of cell phones being around, one still has to work for 1.5 years to get one going. It's astonishing to me. |
| 04:40.25 | mjr | fwiw, I'm using the OM stack as a phone. Have to init from -m shell, the battery life sucks, and it isn't entirely stable, but the calls do work... |
| 04:40.34 | Taco | It's like saying that it takes 1.5->2 years to produce a BIOS for a new laptop. |
| 04:41.14 | Writchie | Taco: look at the GSM specs and you will get an idea. |
| 04:41.21 | ljp | so, why do you guys prefer phone software that barely works over software what works and is mature? |
| 04:41.48 | Writchie | it's a continusouly evolving system |
| 04:42.08 | mjr | qtopia/neo wasn't all that great either, and with that you're restricted to qtopia stuff |
| 04:42.43 | Taco | For me, it's because I'm really primarly interested in the neo for the GPS (boo hoo), and I've already written some aps that run on the OM platform. I'm just too lazy to port my aps to qtopia, but maybe I should. |
| 04:43.02 | mjr | nah, why bother ;) |
| 04:43.05 | ljp | mjr: whats not so good about it? |
| 04:44.00 | mjr | It wasn't ever-stable either, though better than moko at the time. |
| 04:44.14 | mjr | text input sucked more than mokos, imao |
| 04:44.35 | mjr | and of course I do like my X server |
| 04:45.25 | ljp | you dont like the predictive keyboard? |
| 04:47.37 | ljp | or full screen handwriting? |
| 04:47.56 | mjr | didn't notice handwriting |
| 04:48.06 | mjr | (don't like it though) |
| 04:49.12 | ljp | may or may not have been included |
| 04:49.41 | mjr | mmh. Seems like everyone's handwriting engines are proprietary |
| 04:49.47 | mjr | luckily not my preference |
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| 04:51.06 | mwester | Until then, it's closed -- just in another sense of the word. |
| 04:51.17 | mjr | I suspect those should be available, but didn't bother to look... |
| 04:51.31 | mjr | but yeah, my OM session does start a terminal automagically |
| 04:52.40 | ljp | why do you need a term on a phone? |
| 04:52.50 | mwester | a built-in means to access a shell is a sign of open-ness -- all means other than that are just another way of "hacking into" a closed vendor app, regardless of how the vendor app is licensed. |
| 04:53.08 | ljp | no. you can qccess ssh |
| 04:53.44 | mwester | I need that to do things that I cannot predict in advance, and therefore you cannot write a gui for it. And I wish to do it using the touch-screen or built-in keyboard, because I may not have a laptop or other computer nearby. |
| 04:53.57 | mjr | mwester, indeed |
| 04:54.09 | mjr | (or my <3 bt keypad) |
| 04:54.47 | ljp | what phone like things do you need to do from a term? |
| 04:55.18 | mwester | I'm not thinking of the neo as a "phone" -- I can buy a phone that does only phone-like things at the local AT&T store. |
| 04:55.26 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 04:55.28 | mjr | indeed |
| 04:55.29 | mwester | For a lot less money, I might add. :) |
| 04:55.46 | mjr | (though sshing to my irssi box is a phone-like thing) |
| 04:55.48 | mwester | The neo is my personal, portable, linux computer. |
| 04:55.58 | Writchie | mwester: plus phone |
| 04:56.01 | mjr | (at least for _me_) |
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| 04:56.15 | CoreDump | having a working terminal app w/ root access is kind of an psychological thing |
| 04:56.41 | mwester | I'd like it to do PDA-like things, but I'm buying it to do things that most people would consider ridiculous. I might even wish to write C code and compile it while on the commuter train in the mornings. |
| 04:57.20 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 04:58.09 | mwester | I *can* do that on many things -- by "hacking the vendor's firmware". Qtopia falls into that category. OpenMoko, if it ever really happens, holds the promise to be truely open, by embracing people like me who wish to do things they can't even imagine doing on the device. :) |
| 04:58.46 | ljp | and qtopia doesnt embrace that because troltlech doesn;t supply a term app? |
| 04:58.51 | doc|home | coding using a touch screen would be .... irritating |
| 04:59.25 | mjr | I don't find qtopia embracing on that level |
| 04:59.32 | mwester | ljp: That's the first and biggest barrier at the moment. Others claim that the lack of an X server is a problem, but I can't even get that far. |
| 05:00.06 | Writchie | doc|home: well - you could find a bug and make a quick patch without being too irritating. |
| 05:00.13 | ljp | well, i dont see how lacking x is a problem/barrier to community embracement |
| 05:00.30 | ljp | mjr: what do you do with you neo X? |
| 05:00.42 | ljp | rather, thats x specific? |
| 05:00.43 | mwester | I don't either, I'm just repeating what I've heard. |
| 05:00.47 | mjr | using your own system is an unwelcome tie-in |
| 05:01.08 | ljp | writing to the fb is using our own system? |
| 05:01.26 | ljp | on the same level, X uses its own system as well, you could say |
| 05:01.43 | mwester | I suspect that xterm won't work due to the lack of X, so that might be a challenge. |
| 05:01.58 | mwester | Is there a qtterm? |
| 05:02.03 | mjr | so far I've ran x11vnc for presentations, otherwise ran stuff remote, but the real point is not having to port every piece to qtopia |
| 05:02.09 | ljp | well, a v term is not impossible for qtoia, there was embeddedkonsole in qtopia 2 |
| 05:02.11 | CoreDump | *X |
| 05:02.12 | mjr | ljp, now you're being disingenious |
| 05:02.37 | ljp | no, I am not. just picking your brain |
| 05:03.03 | *** join/#openmoko Linux_Galore (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 05:03.34 | mwester | Well,my brain is rather simple and obvious. But wash your hands before you mess about with my brain! :D |
| 05:03.39 | ljp | mjr: well, if its a Qt apps, the port is simple. |
| 05:03.54 | doc|home | Writchie: I think it'd be hard to bug fix, I mean, I have a nokia n800 and typing using a terminal isn't something enjoyable. I'd consider it a limitation of the hardware :/ |
| 05:03.57 | mjr | ljp, again you scream tie-in |
| 05:04.18 | ljp | and om using gtk/X isn;t also a tie in? |
| 05:04.22 | mwester | doc|home: I'm willing to carry a bluetooth fold-up keyboard. I have one for my treo. |
| 05:04.25 | mjr | no, no it isn't |
| 05:04.28 | mjr | X isn't a tie-in |
| 05:04.32 | doc|home | mwester: probably a help ;) |
| 05:05.01 | Linux_Galore | got myself a nice new keyboard (Mickysoft Natural 4000) |
| 05:05.11 | mjr | ljp, well then to make a long story short, you're too much of a fool for me to waste my time talking to you |
| 05:05.19 | ljp | ha |
| 05:05.54 | mjr | have fun in qtverse |
| 05:05.54 | doc|home | mwester: still, how about just getting some music and sitting back and relaxing? Not like people aren't rushing about too much as it is and you won't get that time back from the company :) |
| 05:05.54 | Writchie | doc|home: you pretty much can always have the phone - so you could do this in a pinch. |
| 05:05.54 | ljp | ok i do |
| 05:06.04 | u_l-lap | mmm qtverse for breakfast |
| 05:06.07 | doc|home | Writchie: sure, but a constant thing on the way to work every day and I'd go mental, besides, would distract me from looking at the girls on the bus. Can't be having that, |
| 05:06.11 | ljp | Linux_Galore: I got a new keyboard too a compact Cherry |
| 05:06.25 | Linux_Galore | ljp: cherry is pretty sweet |
| 05:06.54 | mwester | Google of Qt and console comes up with nothing that looks like a terminal emulator. :( |
| 05:07.05 | ljp | konsole |
| 05:07.09 | Linux_Galore | Ive been using ergonic keyboards for so long now I cant use a normal 101 |
| 05:07.10 | ljp | but tha uses kde as well |
| 05:07.16 | mjr | mwester, if one were optimistic, it'd be because a console and a terminal window have nothing in common ;] |
| 05:07.19 | ljp | embeddedkonsole was based on kde |
| 05:07.35 | Linux_Galore | ergonomic* |
| 05:07.41 | mjr | s/window/program/, whatever |
| 05:08.40 | Linux_Galore | sheesh, whats this, my widget set is better than yours, who cares OM went with gtk and QTopia are doing a port for the OM, both should work fine and be pretty decent |
| 05:08.50 | mwester | Konsole... ok, creative spelling. That's cool. So does it emulate the classic term types, or at least the ubiquitious vt100/ansi types? And what's involved in putting it in the qtopia image for the Neo? |
| 05:09.16 | mjr | Linux_Galore, the widget set thing was quite secondary. |
| 05:09.17 | ljp | konsole 4 would need to be de-kde'd |
| 05:09.20 | Linux_Galore | FYI Im a QT person |
| 05:09.34 | mwester | Still no source, but I presume that's just a matter of more digging. |
| 05:10.09 | ljp | konsole is open, its in kde |
| 05:10.38 | Linux_Galore | mjr: well Im not surprised they went with GTK is has a more license that allows binary linking without having to fork out for a license |
| 05:10.48 | ljp | there is a port of embeddedkonsole to qtopia 4 in opieII sources, but it doesn;t exactly work. it compiles though |
| 05:10.52 | Linux_Galore | s/is has/it has/ |
| 05:11.24 | ljp | too bad that allows non free software on a free software phone |
| 05:11.58 | mwester | Oh. So if it needs to be de-kde'd, that would mean that there is no terminal emulator for Qt right now? That kinda explains the entire situation, and confirms my thinking that lack of a terminal emulator on the device is a good indicator of the vendor's intention for the device... in this case, a phone "git yer grubby hackin' hands off of the innards!" application. ;) :D |
| 05:12.07 | mjr | ...'cause Qtopia wouldn't. Oh, wait. |
| 05:12.10 | Writchie | be able to run commercial software is considered by many to be an advantage |
| 05:12.33 | Linux_Galore | both GTK and QT have good and bad points on the licensing, Im surprised they didnt go with BSD and save themselves allot of hassles with licensing |
| 05:14.00 | Linux_Galore | mwester QT is already being used on portable phones (actually a few now) |
| 05:14.13 | mwester | Yes. Irrelevant. |
| 05:14.20 | ljp | well, I started asking because I wanted to understand why someone would prefer software that barely works over something that's tested and mature |
| 05:14.53 | Taco | I don't see how an indication that QT actually works is irrelevant. |
| 05:14.56 | mwester | ljp: I WANT something tested and mature, but I also want to use it in ways that go beyond pushing the gui buttons associated with a phone. |
| 05:14.57 | Linux_Galore | ljp: well if they were logical they may have gone with java heh |
| 05:15.35 | Linux_Galore | mwester yes so, You can use and change QT any way you want |
| 05:15.46 | mwester | Wrong answer. |
| 05:16.06 | mwester | I can do that with any device I buy. With enough effort, I can hack into any firmware. |
| 05:16.31 | Linux_Galore | mwester eer what has hacking hardware got to do with a open QT platform |
| 05:16.46 | mwester | The quesiton is why OM which doesn't work vs Qtopia -- the answer is that as bad as OM is, it has the promise of offering me an open door to doing what I want. With Qtopia, I have to hack into it. |
| 05:16.56 | mwester | Linux_Galore: Read the log. |
| 05:17.25 | ljp | mwester: simp,ly because qtopia doesn;t have a gui term? |
| 05:17.32 | mwester | Linux_Galore: keywords involve terminal emulator, Konsole, xterm, etc. -- means of gaining access to a shell. Which are missing in Qtopia. |
| 05:17.42 | Linux_Galore | mwester your on crack, QT is not an obfuscated platform |
| 05:17.43 | mwester | ljp: yes, for starters. There may be more. |
| 05:17.58 | mwester | Linux_Galore: Thank you. You're an ass too. |
| 05:18.27 | Linux_Galore | mwester that statement is the biggest pile of FOSS horse shit I have heard in here |
| 05:19.17 | mwester | Linux_Galore: Good bye. I can see you wish to fight rather than have a reasonable argument. Go do it with someone else. |
| 05:19.18 | Linux_Galore | mwester the real reason they went with GTK is very simple, you can work with closed source code on the OM without looking like asses |
| 05:19.54 | Linux_Galore | mwester no yhou just said an out and out lie, and Im calling you a liar |
| 05:20.54 | Linux_Galore | mwester GPL and LGPL are the simple reason, ask Novell or RedHat and they will tell you thats the simple reason they went with GTK |
| 05:21.16 | mjr | Linux_Galore is missing points, I do believe |
| 05:21.38 | Linux_Galore | LGPL allows you to "be evil" and do it without having to "pay the man" for being evil |
| 05:22.22 | mjr | yes thank you for your lecture on the differences of the GPL and the Lesser variant |
| 05:22.32 | Linux_Galore | all this other horse shit about usability and hacking if you got with QT is just that, horse shit |
| 05:22.39 | Linux_Galore | go* |
| 05:23.58 | mjr | Your first mistake is to confuse Qt with Qtopia. Start rethinking from there. I'll try and get some sleep. |
| 05:24.10 | Linux_Galore | its GPL, the stack is very mature and debugged and tested on open devices, it is already running on over 4 million handsets, all the GTK excuses Im seeing on the forums make me want to puke its so full of it |
| 05:24.41 | mjr | see, there's that mistake |
| 05:25.11 | ljp | gtk is also on handsets in China and Asia |
| 05:25.21 | Linux_Galore | mjr: all I'm seeing is rhetoric no actual logic |
| 05:25.51 | mjr | Linux_Galore, I'm sure that's true, just like ljp doesn't see any difference between Qtopia's display and input handling system and X |
| 05:26.20 | mjr | you guys should get better glasses |
| 05:26.45 | Linux_Galore | mjr: they are different but both will work with X just fine |
| 05:27.07 | ljp | mjr: what I am saying is that there are two sides to the fence |
| 05:28.15 | mjr | ljp, and one side is a single product tie-in, while the other is open to a shitload of existing code. Yes. |
| 05:28.36 | mjr | ...dare I say the "s" word... |
| 05:28.48 | ljp | you could say X is also a 'single product' then tpp |
| 05:28.50 | ljp | too |
| 05:28.51 | mjr | no, not shitload, the other one, whatwasit, "std" or something |
| 05:29.14 | CoreDump | mjr: I wasn't talking about you ;) |
| 05:29.25 | Linux_Galore | too be honest the OM is doomed, as off 2008 and will be able to buy a Linux phones with Linux and a open development platform (android) from companies like HTC and the thing will work and be quadband and have nice things like a fsking camera |
| 05:29.48 | mjr | CoreDump, what if I say that ljp should go suck his momma's dick? |
| 05:30.14 | Linux_Galore | ljp: for less than a bazilion dollars |
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| 05:31.05 | CoreDump | That would not change my opinion about this kind of language. AFAICT you are not using this language in ever 2nd sentence, which does make a difference |
| 05:31.41 | niklauz | hi all |
| 05:31.53 | mjr | Linux_Galore, fine, what're you doing here then? |
| 05:32.04 | Linux_Galore | if the Om guys cant get a quad band Linux phone out by late next year they are going to miss the boat |
| 05:33.21 | Linux_Galore | mjr: Im being a realist |
| 05:33.46 | niklauz | i just read the latest post on the OM rss feed |
| 05:34.28 | Linux_Galore | mjr: I think the OM is a great idea, but the clock is now ticking because there are other players on the field now |
| 05:34.42 | niklauz | there does seems to be a lot of discouraging news lately, it makes me worry the efforts are losing steam or becoming more hindered |
| 05:34.58 | mjr | of course it's ticking |
| 05:35.48 | Linux_Galore | mjr: doesn't help that Giggles is putting $10 big gorillas on the table for new programs |
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| 05:36.08 | mjr | Doesn't mean Android's gonna make people after real freedom and openness happy. Of course, doesn't mean that there will be options either, but what the hey, it's worth a shot. |
| 05:36.46 | Taco | Wow - I just downloaded the latest "official" kernel and rootfs, and now I can make phone calls with an AT&T SIM, in the US, with the GUI dialer! |
| 05:36.47 | mjr | anyway, Android -> #android, as doesn't seem to be in the topic anymore |
| 05:36.55 | Linux_Galore | wouldnt it be funny if OM triggered android |
| 05:37.03 | ljp | android is hype, and its just going to be business as usual because of the apache license |
| 05:37.18 | niklauz | as far as i know OM is still our best bet for mobiles with a sincere emphasis on freedom |
| 05:37.27 | mjr | perhaps somebody thought that people would've gotten over hyping the vapour here already |
| 05:37.31 | mjr | niklauz, indeed |
| 05:37.42 | niklauz | mjr, thats why i'm worried |
| 05:37.48 | mjr | niklauz, indeed |
| 05:37.50 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: true thats why I like the OM, but I keep seeing new problems |
| 05:37.52 | niklauz | hehe |
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| 05:39.05 | niklauz | ljp, is qtopia a mobile linux distribution? |
| 05:39.17 | Linux_Galore | I think the big issue with OM is there isnt enough money on the table, trust me, hardware makers will kiss your ass and call it candy if you have the money |
| 05:39.17 | niklauz | ljp, i think you're comparing apples and oranges |
| 05:39.24 | ljp | qtopia is distribution agnostic |
| 05:40.48 | niklauz | ljp, when you wondered about the sincerity of Qtopia, was that in response to what i said? |
| 05:41.07 | ljp | niklauz: yes |
| 05:41.25 | ljp | whats not free about Qtopia? |
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| 05:42.05 | Linux_Galore | qtopia are who they are, the code is GPL and they are a financial going concern, OM is no different, if FIC start going backwards they will dumb OM in a blink of an eye, thats business |
| 05:42.40 | niklauz | i think you've misinterpreted me, i wasn't saying anything about Qtopia, i was talking about a full free mobile distribution, Qtopia is just a component, not a replacement |
| 05:44.05 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: Im surprised they bothered with the OM, why didnt they just contract out to CECT or HTC for a phone |
| 05:44.32 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: that is the real mystery to me |
| 05:45.17 | ljp | niklauz: ok. fair enough :) |
| 05:45.31 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: maybe QTopia have money problems ? |
| 05:45.51 | niklauz | linux_galore, i'm not an insider but i think they were hoping to reduce the cost by selling the phone w/ windows also, to hedge their investment so to speak |
| 05:46.46 | niklauz | this would hypothetically mean larger hardware volumes to make it cheaper before linux is even slapped on |
| 05:47.22 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: 2008 is going to be an interesting year, I cant see mickysoft standing back either |
| 05:48.15 | niklauz | i agree, im just hoping it's interesting in a good way :-) |
| 05:48.33 | Linux_Galore | I got to play with a EEE PC today, damn its nice, looks like something you would expect apple to kick out |
| 05:49.04 | Linux_Galore | the mouse pad is a bit sucky though |
| 05:49.10 | niklauz | linux_galore: how is the battery life & user experience? |
| 05:49.56 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: well I ony got to use it for an hour but it seemed fine, the owner who lent me the unit said the battery life was better than his laptop |
| 05:50.03 | Linux_Galore | only* |
| 05:50.36 | Linux_Galore | niklauz: the total silence of the EEE is what really gets you |
| 05:50.38 | ljp | Linux_Galore: hows the ui performance? |
| 05:51.08 | Linux_Galore | ljp: very good, apps are a bit laggy to start but when they are up they run fast |
| 05:51.29 | Linux_Galore | the reboot time though is very fast |
| 05:51.53 | Linux_Galore | I cant wait for custom installs for the EEE start to appear |
| 05:52.26 | Linux_Galore | to start appearing* |
| 05:52.51 | Taco | What's an EEE PC? |
| 05:53.23 | ewon | asus-built flash-based mini laptop, costs 400usd |
| 05:53.29 | Linux_Galore | on youtube it looks pretty big but when you get one its really damn small and the weight is microscopic compared to my Sony Vaio UX |
| 05:53.53 | Linux_Galore | ewon: lots of videos on youtube |
| 05:53.56 | Taco | How much flash does it have? |
| 05:53.57 | ewon | it's comparible in size to the original toshiba libretto |
| 05:54.12 | ewon | one of the guys in work got one last week, got a chance to poke it |
| 05:54.17 | ewon | Taco: deoends on the model |
| 05:54.18 | Linux_Galore | Taco: 4gb built on but you can add more there is an external slot |
| 05:54.19 | ewon | *depends |
| 05:54.23 | Linux_Galore | in* |
| 05:55.02 | Linux_Galore | there is another version of the EEE due out next year with 8GB but some are saying 16GB is more like it |
| 05:55.33 | Taco | How much of the 4G does the OS chew up? |
| 05:55.40 | ewon | 2, iirc |
| 05:55.50 | Linux_Galore | you can also use external USB thumb drives/hardisks for storage |
| 05:56.13 | Linux_Galore | Taco: bit over 2GB |
| 05:56.38 | Linux_Galore | so yes the 8GB unit is a must |
| 05:56.46 | ewon | the screen is a bit small |
| 05:56.51 | Linux_Galore | if you want to add lots of apps (or install Ubuntu) |
| 05:57.04 | ewon | It's an 8inch surrounded by this big black bezel |
| 05:57.14 | Linux_Galore | ewon: well its a ultra portable what do you expect its not a laptop |
| 05:57.25 | ewon | Linux_Galore: I'd prefer a 10 inch screen and no bezel? |
| 05:57.50 | Linux_Galore | ewon: the unit I saw was white and there was no black surround on the screen it was white |
| 05:58.06 | ewon | either way, there's a 2 inch bezel around the screen |
| 05:58.38 | Linux_Galore | ewon: yeah, some talk asus have a unit with a bigger screen but then were are the speakers going to go |
| 05:58.49 | Linux_Galore | ewon: the surround is the speakers |
| 05:59.04 | ewon | Linux_Galore: I'd prefer more screen and no speakers? |
| 05:59.28 | Linux_Galore | ewon: me too, who needs them for a ultra portable anyway just use headphones |
| 05:59.36 | ewon | exactly |
| 06:00.09 | ewon | either way, I've no use for the eee currently (would have been a very useful back in university though) |
| 06:00.45 | Linux_Galore | ewon: I suspect they couldnt get the screen ie 10" in large enough quantities so they went with a 7" unit because PMP's use the same screen |
| 06:01.31 | Linux_Galore | I see lots of 4" 6" 7" but hardly any 10" LCD devices |
| 06:02.22 | Linux_Galore | ewon: also the EEE is all about the price |
| 06:02.32 | Linux_Galore | for the size |
| 06:03.26 | Linux_Galore | some idiot has hacked OSX on to the eee too, slow as hell though |
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| 06:05.23 | ewon | lol |
| 06:05.27 | ewon | man I'd say it crawls |
| 06:05.36 | ewon | I'd basically use it as a web browser / ssh box |
| 06:05.40 | Linux_Galore | well Xp runs on the eee too |
| 06:05.49 | ewon | I wonder how good the wifi chip is in it |
| 06:05.56 | ewon | e.g. can it do packet injection like the atheros |
| 06:06.18 | Linux_Galore | ewon: it uses a pretty new atheoros unit |
| 06:06.43 | Linux_Galore | so new Ubuntu 7.10 has no driver lol |
| 06:07.57 | Linux_Galore | I still think my Sony Vaio UX380P is a better UMPC solution |
| 06:09.49 | Linux_Galore | 1.33Ghz Core mono 1GB DDR2 ram 1024 x 768 touch screen and a 30GB HDD |
| 06:10.25 | Linux_Galore | runs Linux but I havent got wifi working so its dual booting |
| 06:11.10 | Linux_Galore | the LAN connection works though so all isnt lost |
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| 06:32.07 | ewon | wowwww nelly |
| 06:32.19 | ewon | looks like asus is breaking the GPL with the eee |
| 06:32.21 | ewon | http://cliffhacks.blogspot.com/2007/11/asus-eeepc-first-impressions-and-gpl.html |
| 06:35.14 | mwester | Nothing surprising about that. Linksys/Cisco has been doing it for years. |
| 06:35.59 | mwester | I suspect that with a little market pressure, they'll come clean on the parts that they are required to release the source for, and come up with the contracts for the parts they do not wish to do so for. |
| 06:37.33 | mwester | oppiz: Probably not this calendar year any more -- at least that's what I've heard here. |
| 06:38.01 | oppiz | BLAH! i read that as well... |
| 06:39.02 | mwester | Well, if it doesn't work, then it shouldn't be released, I guess. You can only work around a limited set of problems in software. |
| 06:39.53 | oppiz | true. do they have a possible new date late january? |
| 06:40.36 | ljp | the EEE sorta reminds me of an old Epson 486 laptop I had |
| 06:41.54 | oppiz | mwester, it also crazt noone has a working phone program |
| 06:42.47 | oppiz | really does it work well, everything i had read is it doesn't work, and has no gui |
| 06:42.58 | ljp | qtopiua works great |
| 06:43.02 | ljp | qtopia that is |
| 06:43.04 | Taco | My neo just stopped outputting any audio - even the boot-time jingle. Does anyone know how to fix that? |
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| 06:47.52 | ferric | greetlings. |
| 06:48.59 | ewon | I hope they come clean, I want to run xubuntu on one |
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| 08:13.04 | torpor | | configure: error: GMP with MPFR support is required to build fortran |
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| 08:29.19 | Taco | Does anyone know if the dropbear ssh client that is built into the standard rootfs image can do X11 forwarding, or would it need to be rebuilt to do that? |
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| 08:44.35 | Taco | My neo can make outgoing calls successfully. However, while incoming calls ring the phone, I can't seem to answer them using the headset icon of the dialer GUI. Does anyone know what might be wrong? |
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| 08:55.59 | Hopscotch | good morning |
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| 09:51.26 | PBeck | hi |
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| 10:05.59 | rwhitby | CM: he's been there for a while :-) |
| 10:06.06 | rwhitby | s/there/here/ |
| 10:08.41 | CM | Heh, just stayed quiet I guess. |
| 10:09.01 | CM | Good to see anyway :) |
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| 11:51.41 | freepenguin | www.freepenguin.it/index-en.html |
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| 12:40.38 | torpor | phew |
| 12:40.44 | torpor | finally got root-on-sd set up and working .. |
| 12:40.45 | torpor | woot! |
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| 12:43.07 | edistar | hi |
| 12:44.09 | CM | :) |
| 12:44.28 | torpor | hi |
| 12:45.06 | torpor | what is the currently accepted way of doing gps? still with gllin and a wrapper, or is there now some package on some repo somewhere? |
| 12:45.14 | torpor | i think i asked about this once before recently but i forget .. |
| 12:45.21 | CM | Well |
| 12:45.33 | CM | I think that's still the way |
| 12:45.59 | torpor | hmm. |
| 12:46.04 | CM | But Ghiottone together with the author of statifier is looking at how to make a single binary out of it |
| 12:46.12 | CM | Out of the libs and gllin that is |
| 12:46.14 | torpor | so if i just fire up gllin-wrapper somehow, i can use navit and openmoko-agps app and stuff? |
| 12:46.29 | CM | Not sure, I should give it a try too |
| 12:46.44 | torpor | i'm trying to set up the 'ultimate' neo1973 image today, with working GPS, working phone, etc. bluetooth keyboard panel and all that too .. |
| 12:47.27 | balrog-kun | good luck |
| 12:48.54 | edistar | does anyone know why the mailinglists are not working anymore? |
| 12:50.01 | roh | edistar our admin is currently working on that |
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| 12:50.27 | roh | they should 'work' in general .. what exactly are you experiencing? |
| 12:50.35 | edistar | roh: ok, thanks |
| 12:50.47 | edistar | roh: not getting any mail, now about 4 days I think |
| 12:50.50 | edistar | seems a bit unlikely |
| 12:51.43 | roh | jap. but fits the symptoms we know. |
| 12:52.03 | roh | you only subscribed in the last 2 month, right? |
| 12:52.16 | edistar | roh: no, about 6 month ago roughly.. |
| 12:52.26 | roh | hm |
| 12:52.39 | edistar | roh: I could check exactly if that's relevant? |
| 12:56.22 | roh | not neccessary |
| 12:56.50 | edistar | roh: ok |
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| 13:00.11 | torpor | great! |
| 13:00.14 | torpor | i've now got a working gps! |
| 13:00.24 | torpor | and not only that but my neo is stuffed to the gills with cool crap too. ;) |
| 13:00.26 | edistar | torpor: can you test how exact it is? |
| 13:00.42 | torpor | edistar: nope. i'm not that elite with gps. i just wanted something working,sorta |
| 13:00.55 | torpor | i just followed the normal gllin libhack path, and it seems to be working fine. |
| 13:01.05 | torpor | so i'm done with that, and now its time to hack settingsgui .. ;) |
| 13:01.27 | torpor | anyone got any other good repo's for the neo other than scaredys? i'm already using scaredy's, but i think there have been a few others lately, no? |
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| 13:14.42 | IfChinsCouldKill | http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/ But I don't know if it's any different to buildhost.openmoko.org |
| 13:15.46 | CM | IfChinsCouldKill: I could link my whole build dist there.. |
| 13:15.55 | CM | s/dist/dir/ |
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| 13:18.19 | IfChinsCouldKill | Does it feature your face in the background.. you know... like in the scaredy builds ;) |
| 13:18.31 | CM | Hehe |
| 13:18.32 | CM | Nope |
| 13:18.44 | CM | torpor: Ghiottone has a repo too |
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| 13:19.10 | CM | torpor: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Alessandro#My_Package_Repository |
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| 13:43.36 | tuukkah | thanks CM! btw, gsmd2 link is broken |
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| 13:44.44 | CM | tuukkah: Oh, thanks. I'll look at it |
| 13:44.45 | tuukkah | i was surprised to read ljp is able to use the neo as an everyday phone |
| 13:45.17 | edistar_ | tuukkah: where did you read that? |
| 13:46.05 | tuukkah | above |
| 13:46.16 | CM | He's running qtopia |
| 13:46.22 | edistar_ | ah |
| 13:46.26 | tuukkah | (7 hours ago) |
| 13:46.29 | CM | Not sure how much better their powermanagement is |
| 13:46.47 | tuukkah | yeah, that's the surprising part |
| 13:47.00 | edistar_ | heh |
| 13:47.05 | tuukkah | but also that they don't have gsm issues |
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| 13:47.15 | edistar_ | if you can charge every 5 hours it should be alright? |
| 13:47.42 | tuukkah | hm, i couldn't |
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| 13:47.55 | edistar_ | I can at school ;) |
| 13:48.15 | CM | tuukkah: Thanks for the gsmd2 tip. it's the dumb blogger default url that sometimes get left before what you really try to link :) |
| 13:48.31 | tuukkah | CM, i see, np |
| 13:49.06 | edistar_ | can someone explain to me what exactly are the problems with gsm? |
| 13:49.12 | tuukkah | edistar_, right, keep a laptop with you so you can use it as a charger when you're not near a desktop computer :-) |
| 13:49.37 | tuukkah | edistar_, gsmd is not stable nor well specified |
| 13:50.39 | edistar_ | tuukkah: but the hardware is alright? |
| 13:51.13 | tuukkah | i'm surprised by that too, but if qtopia works... |
| 13:51.52 | edistar_ | tuukkah: so basically it's solveable? |
| 13:52.09 | tuukkah | edistar_, of course there's this small issue of gsm 850 MHz not being available |
| 13:52.26 | tuukkah | edistar_, must be |
| 13:52.59 | edistar_ | tuukkah: ok :) good luck to the gsmd hackers ;) |
| 13:53.35 | tuukkah | there's now something called gsmd2, so there's even some healthy competition :-) |
| 13:53.59 | edistar_ | tuukkah: by who is gsmd2? also the OM team? |
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| 13:54.16 | CM | edistar_: No, It's a finnish company called Ixonos |
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| 13:54.26 | CM | But it's also GPLv2+ |
| 13:54.31 | tuukkah | they do mobile software development |
| 13:54.57 | CM | And known as mudyc and fatal- in here.. ;) |
| 13:55.13 | edistar_ | so why not use that in OM? |
| 13:55.20 | edistar_ | isn't it stable yet either? |
| 13:55.35 | tuukkah | edistar_, it's a possibility, but it's not ready yet |
| 13:55.39 | mickeyl | it's not compatible |
| 13:55.39 | edistar_ | ok |
| 13:55.43 | mickeyl | it would mean touching the whole stack |
| 13:55.48 | CM | They put it out as a proposal for discussion |
| 13:55.49 | mickeyl | this is the major problem for now |
| 13:56.00 | edistar_ | mickeyl: ah, ok |
| 13:56.28 | mickeyl | but since OM will work on a dbus abstraction as well |
| 13:56.44 | mickeyl | once we have that we can swap the underlying implementation |
| 13:56.46 | edistar_ | I thought gsmd was stable for 2 months now.. |
| 13:56.51 | mickeyl | and this is when the fun starts |
| 13:57.00 | edistar_ | :) |
| 13:57.59 | mickeyl | <mickeyl> once we have all the dbus collaboration line, we can swap like hell |
| 13:58.00 | mickeyl | <mickeyl> above dbus and below |
| 13:58.00 | mickeyl | <mickeyl> until we come to a rock solid and fun environment |
| 13:58.29 | CM | mickeyl: :D |
| 13:59.04 | mickeyl | balrog-kun: ping |
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| 14:04.43 | tuukkah | CM, thanks for the link to the phonekit pdf too |
| 14:04.53 | tuukkah | looks like phonekit would be the policy part |
| 14:05.13 | tuukkah | now the proposal doesn't show where 3rd-party software fits in |
| 14:06.12 | tuukkah | neither whether phonekit communicates with gsmd using d-bus |
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| 14:35.41 | CM | I hope it's a sandwich cake.. I love those.. ;) |
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| 15:11.22 | tuukkah | what's the status with audio quality improvement and echo reduction work? |
| 15:12.34 | borg_ | mh |
| 15:12.50 | borg_ | which GDK_BUTTON_MASK is triggered when someone clicks on the display? |
| 15:13.35 | tuukkah | borg_, i can suggest you try xev |
| 15:13.50 | borg_ | xev? |
| 15:14.28 | tuukkah | just a suggestion, it's a program that shows the x events it receives |
| 15:14.51 | borg_ | ButtonPress event, serial 19, synthetic NO, window 0x1000001, root 0x3a, subw 0x0, time 2006333093, (242,200), root:(242,250), state 0x0, button 1, same_screen YES |
| 15:14.55 | borg_ | mh |
| 15:15.05 | borg_ | but what does this mean for gtk? ;) |
| 15:15.18 | borg_ | button 1 |
| 15:15.19 | borg_ | mhmh |
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| 15:15.31 | borg_ | damn |
| 15:15.38 | borg_ | i cant get drag n drop work on the neo |
| 15:16.17 | tuukkah | that would be related to ButtonPress/ButtonRelease events |
| 15:17.01 | borg_ | i do |
| 15:17.09 | borg_ | gtk_drag_source_set(south, GDK_BUTTON1_MASK, targetentries, 1, GDK_ACTION_COPY); |
| 15:17.12 | borg_ | and |
| 15:17.20 | borg_ | g_signal_connect(GTK_OBJECT(south), "drag_data_get", G_CALLBACK(neod_buttonactions_lock_display_data_get), NULL); |
| 15:17.31 | borg_ | but neod_buttonactions_lock_display_data_get is never called |
| 15:17.48 | borg_ | ideas? :) |
| 15:17.50 | tuukkah | i mean, you should check with xev that the touch screen can generate ButtonPress without a ButtonRelease |
| 15:18.00 | borg_ | tuukkah: ah |
| 15:18.00 | borg_ | ok |
| 15:18.11 | borg_ | tuukkah: it can :) |
| 15:18.15 | tuukkah | then MotionNotify events, then ButtonRelease |
| 15:18.21 | borg_ | yes |
| 15:18.34 | borg_ | it makes ButtonPress, MotionNotify^n, ButtonRelease |
| 15:19.12 | Kero | of course, it is normal X :) |
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| 15:19.55 | tuukkah | i don't remember how the gtk drag api works. have you tested the code works on a computer? |
| 15:20.19 | tuukkah | Kero, not all touch screens are equal, i suppose |
| 15:20.49 | Kero | quite a few drag-events listed in glade-3... I have no idea how gtk would make a drag and then a drop |
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| 15:22.53 | borg_ | i guess i have to make some sort of minimal drag n drop thingy which works on my desktop |
| 15:23.09 | borg_ | i cant run neod on the desktio becouse of the lack of certain buttons and so on ;) |
| 15:23.53 | tuukkah | i think you can run neod on the phone with a DISPLAY on the computer |
| 15:24.46 | tuukkah | googling for gtk drag drop gives a tutorial |
| 15:26.26 | borg_ | tuukkah: i used this http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-libs/drag-and-drop.html |
| 15:26.43 | borg_ | and looked at this http://scentric.net/tutorial/sec-dnd.html |
| 15:27.03 | tuukkah | wouldn't they include an example app you can try to run on the neo? |
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| 15:49.52 | mjr | people complain about a strong echo of their words when they call the neo; is that tunable, a firmware thing, both, or over the air loopback? |
| 15:50.39 | Vegar | From what I've heard, there's a slider in alsamixer to fix that |
| 15:50.56 | Writchie | mjr: in my testing (a few months ago) the proper alsamixer settings eliminated all of that. |
| 15:51.17 | mjr | ack |
| 15:51.25 | Writchie | there was also the classic GSM TDM burst sound on both ends which also was eliminated with proper settings. |
| 15:51.40 | torpor | it seems there really needs to be an astate manager gui .. |
| 15:51.52 | Writchie | BTW these really need to be engineered properly to meet GSM specs, not left up to fiddling with mixers. |
| 15:52.25 | tuukkah | well, we have the state files, can someone who knows what they should contain patch them? |
| 15:52.43 | torpor | maybe just a state file switcher would be nice. should be easy to hack into settingsgui .. |
| 15:52.51 | edistar | btw, is it only me or doesn't the rss feed from planet.openmoko.org give the right links? |
| 15:52.54 | Writchie | to know exactly how they should be set requires test equipment and access that only OM has. |
| 15:53.16 | Writchie | there is calibration stored in the GSM modem. |
| 15:53.49 | Writchie | to do it properly you need an artificial head |
| 15:54.01 | tuukkah | at least here AT@AUL doesn't work |
| 15:54.15 | tuukkah | and AT@ST isn't disabled by default |
| 15:54.35 | Writchie | the sidetone is coming through the mixer IIRC |
| 15:54.43 | Writchie | the abnormal one that is |
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| 15:57.01 | Writchie | tuuklah: someone was working on a full description of all the audio paths a few weeks ago but i don't know if it was finished. Without a hardware diagram of the interconnections, we're just grasping in the dark. |
| 15:58.04 | tuukkah | Writchie, indeed. cool to hear that someone's working on it |
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| 16:29.48 | buz_ | "Unfortunately, a hardware bug in power management with GTA02v4 has required a fifth revision of the hardware for GTA02." |
| 16:29.50 | buz_ | is that right? |
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| 16:30.22 | buz_ | from http://informationhunger.blogspot.com/2007/11/openmoko-is-growing.html btw |
| 16:30.33 | Writchie | yup - and Santa's pissed |
| 16:30.38 | Crofton|home | :) |
| 16:31.44 | buz_ | sort of weird way to announce a delay |
| 16:32.08 | edistar | buz_: yeah, it was known for a few days now |
| 16:32.15 | buz_ | must have missed it |
| 16:32.20 | buz_ | or wasnt it officially announced |
| 16:32.21 | CM | buz_: It was reported in bugzilla a while ago: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=957#c1 |
| 16:32.26 | edistar | buz_: yeah, was only on irc |
| 16:32.36 | buz_ | bugzilla is an even weirder way of announcing a delay |
| 16:32.38 | edistar | CM: not everyone browses bugzilla every day.. |
| 16:32.51 | CM | edistar: What's wrong with you people? :P |
| 16:32.56 | borg_ | :) |
| 16:33.08 | edistar | :D |
| 16:33.42 | Crofton|home | openmoko is an interesting project because it is a very open design process |
| 16:33.54 | Crofton|home | in an industry that is normally *very* closed |
| 16:34.16 | Crofton|home | and the project must work with some very closed pieces such as the gsm and gps bits |
| 16:34.46 | buz_ | neither of them should be any real problem. they essentially are black boxes to the os. |
| 16:34.55 | buz_ | (yeah i know about hammerhead) |
| 16:34.58 | buz_ | and i'm glad its gone |
| 16:35.09 | Writchie | Crofton: actually the "design process", if it even exists, is completely closed. |
| 16:35.39 | mwester | Writchie: the "if" is a big question when it comes to certain parts of the software ;) |
| 16:35.52 | Writchie | and hardware |
| 16:35.57 | buz_ | mwester: even with the hardware i have my doubts |
| 16:37.08 | Writchie | 9 spins of the board - gimme a break |
| 16:37.35 | edistar | Writchie: 9? quite a lot.. |
| 16:37.43 | buz_ | other companies churn out 2 phones a month |
| 16:37.51 | CM | 4 versions of gta01 |
| 16:37.53 | buz_ | edistar: if you sum up gta01 and gta02 its 9 |
| 16:38.03 | buz_ | and i guess you could reasonably do that |
| 16:38.13 | edistar | buz_: lol.. but I hope the next generation will be faster.. |
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| 16:38.46 | Writchie | not unless they get some engineering process |
| 16:39.02 | edistar | Writchie: What does that mean? |
| 16:39.02 | buz_ | hiring some good industrial designers wouldnt hurt, either |
| 16:39.16 | CM | Well, look at the comments in the wiki about the debug board that I think Harald wrote: We previously had Neo1973 Debug Board v1 (inherited from some weird engineers who must have seen Brazil too often). |
| 16:40.00 | Writchie | chinese engineering teams do what you tell them - if you don't tell them you can get anything |
| 16:40.12 | CM | I think someone said GTA01 was designed by some guys in taiwan, but gta02 was done "in house" |
| 16:40.22 | CVirus | in house ? |
| 16:40.28 | CM | By OpenMoko |
| 16:40.36 | oramirez | Hi, I am trying to install openmoko h3900 image, but it freezes at the booting. I have been searching for some work-around .. but I haven't found anything.. any idea? |
| 16:40.49 | buz_ | CM: from what i gather, you may still get anything even if you tell them |
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| 16:40.56 | CM | hehe |
| 16:41.12 | CM | oramirez: Maybe ask koen in #oe, if he has time |
| 16:41.22 | buz_ | maybe they should have been told to copy a HTC phone. that might have worked out reasonably well |
| 16:41.50 | CM | buz_: If they could have gotten all specifications for one of those I guess it would have been perfect :) |
| 16:42.05 | emdete | mwester: are you playing with gps also? |
| 16:42.06 | Writchie | the design is actually pretty good, it looks to be more of a spec/verification/validation screw up |
| 16:42.22 | buz_ | afaik, they will even copy designs they dont have specs for |
| 16:42.39 | Writchie | the existing device is the spec - that's easy |
| 16:43.03 | buz_ | at that point, it would have been a software reengineering thing |
| 16:43.07 | buz_ | writing linux drivers |
| 16:43.16 | edistar | I always thought companies like FIC have many engineers who know exactly how to build embedded devices.. |
| 16:43.21 | mwester | emdete: Alas, no. I wait for the long-promised driver. |
| 16:43.22 | Writchie | the quadband cluster f*#k is beyond all belief |
| 16:43.49 | buz_ | edistar: i dont think fic is really an embedded company as much as a pc hardware company |
| 16:44.00 | mmontour | buz_: One of the big advantages of the Neo1973 (for me) is how they insist on documented or gpl-driver hardware |
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| 16:44.32 | buz_ | mmontour: i agree, but the resources sunk into 9 revisions of some device might have been enough to do reverse engineer a driver or too |
| 16:44.45 | Writchie | it's probably not the engineers - its the engineering management/product management/project management and/or lack thereof |
| 16:45.01 | emdete | mwester: i played around with that and i am very disapointed about the quality - it often drops connection (we have clear sky here today and i was outside). wonder if i do something wrong or if other people see the same... |
| 16:45.04 | buz_ | Writchie: if PR is any indication, there is no management around |
| 16:45.26 | mmontour | "9 revs" is sort of unfair - gta02 has significant feature enhancements (like WiFi), not just fixing previous mistakes |
| 16:45.47 | buz_ | mmontour: yeah but it is was gta01 should have been all along |
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| 16:46.03 | edistar | how many people are actually working on hardware design? |
| 16:46.52 | JohnMahowald | The first version of anything is never right. |
| 16:47.14 | buz_ | first gen ipod was pretty decent |
| 16:47.30 | JohnMahowald | The first *public* iPod |
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| 16:48.08 | buz_ | JohnMahowald: it's pretty obvious to anyone who ever thought about what neo should do that gta01 wasnt enough hardware |
| 16:48.17 | Writchie | FIC should have shipped tens of thousand first models by now and be introducing an improved model today and at least every 6 months. |
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| 16:48.32 | Writchie | gta01 is way more hardware than required. |
| 16:48.44 | buz_ | it depends on what you actually want to sell |
| 16:48.49 | Writchie | gta02 is a regression in many respects |
| 16:48.55 | buz_ | for a phone, yes, for a small linux thingy, maybe not |
| 16:49.07 | buz_ | like what? |
| 16:49.16 | SpeedEvil | price |
| 16:49.17 | Writchie | small linux thingy - you mean a 770 800 810? |
| 16:49.31 | edistar | Writchie: regression? |
| 16:49.32 | SpeedEvil | Given that it's not subsidised - $450 will be over many peoples thresholds |
| 16:49.33 | buz_ | yeah, add gsm to 810 and you have a near perfect device |
| 16:49.45 | buz_ | SpeedEvil: i agree, 450$ is hard to justify in 2008 |
| 16:49.53 | buz_ | then again, $ is so low now :è |
| 16:50.11 | edistar | exactly :) |
| 16:50.23 | mmontour | buz_: depends whose "$" you're talking about :) |
| 16:50.35 | buz_ | 300EUR *including taxes* would be about right i guess |
| 16:51.13 | Writchie | regression = broken bluetooth - power budget needed a lead acid battery! |
| 16:51.27 | thresh | 810 near perfect? it isnt open! |
| 16:51.37 | SpeedEvil | broken bluetooth isn't a regression |
| 16:51.40 | SpeedEvil | it was always broken |
| 16:51.47 | SpeedEvil | and open isn't the point |
| 16:51.54 | buz_ | thresh: its more open than anything thats shipping in volume |
| 16:52.00 | SpeedEvil | we don't - ideally - want an open phone that sells 10K |
| 16:52.09 | thresh | buz_: it isnt enough as for me... |
| 16:52.12 | SpeedEvil | we want an open phone that sells >>100K |
| 16:52.33 | SpeedEvil | The ideal case is that 99% of users have no clue what a shell is. |
| 16:52.35 | Writchie | 10K per month is pretty much the minimum sustainable business model IMNSHO |
| 16:53.07 | buz_ | i'd say you probably need more than that, even |
| 16:53.11 | edistar | Writchie: do you think its realistic that FIC will sell that many devices? |
| 16:53.22 | buz_ | edistar: not if they cant deliver |
| 16:53.28 | Writchie | not how they are approaching now |
| 16:53.40 | Writchie | s/now/it now/ |
| 16:54.08 | buz_ | if they want this to sustain, they SHOULD hire an industrial designer, shell out the cash to make a sexy device or call it a day now |
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| 16:54.09 | Writchie | but I believe 100K per month is easily doable on this platform |
| 16:54.43 | buz_ | Writchie: you need more than one form factor for that to happen |
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| 16:55.27 | Writchie | buz_: sure - overlapping models - new introduction every 6 months then every quarter - 1 year or more product life - standard stuff |
| 16:55.52 | buz_ | yeah, at least a clamshell, a candy bar, a treo and a touchscreen one |
| 16:56.29 | edistar | buz_: all touch, but then different form factors :) |
| 16:56.46 | buz_ | edistar: yeah all have touch, but but in mentioned form factors |
| 16:56.59 | torpor | wait. |
| 16:57.00 | Writchie | well touch also needs some navigation |
| 16:57.02 | Writchie | buttons |
| 16:57.03 | torpor | bluetooth is *BROKEN*? |
| 16:57.04 | torpor | wtf? |
| 16:57.07 | torpor | hows that possible.? |
| 16:57.08 | Writchie | bluetooth PM |
| 16:57.16 | torpor | PM? |
| 16:57.21 | torpor | oh, you mean we can't turn it off? |
| 16:57.23 | Writchie | power management |
| 16:57.42 | edistar | well... that is _very_ broken then.. |
| 16:57.50 | Writchie | no - i can't press a button on my headset and then make a call - pretty big miss |
| 16:58.20 | buz_ | i'd consider the quadband issue a bigger f*** up even |
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| 16:58.37 | Writchie | buz_: yes that surely #1 |
| 16:59.40 | buz_ | an open phone that doesnt work is not very useful to most people out there, so maybe sacrificing some openness in the beginning to get the volume to talk to suppliers would have helped |
| 17:00.39 | edistar | buz_: like me, I wouldn't mind "shelling" around a bit to get something to work, as long as I have an open linux mobile |
| 17:00.57 | buz_ | yeah but if the hardware is screwed up, thats not gonna help |
| 17:01.11 | edistar | buz_: workarounds.. |
| 17:01.26 | buz_ | how would you work around an empty battery? |
| 17:01.53 | edistar | I mean, broken hardware without workarounds is of course a nogo, but you wouldn't even call that a proper mobile.. |
| 17:02.19 | Writchie | my definition of this product working is that the hardware and low-level driver software work and are verfied and validated that they do so. The rest is UI and it can months and not really matter. You don't have a platform until the software and drivers work. |
| 17:02.31 | buz_ | exactly |
| 17:02.46 | buz_ | and you dont have an end user product until the gui does work |
| 17:03.22 | Writchie | you can a simple phone with fb and take as long as you want to make better and better upper layers - that's the whole point. |
| 17:04.03 | Writchie | All you need is a basic working phone call and sms phone on a stable platform and you are off and running. |
| 17:04.41 | Writchie | the whole point of OM is the software continues (even starts) when the phone becomes shippable, the exact opposit of the normal case where software developmen ENDS when the phone becomes shipaable. |
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| 17:06.07 | gamin | very good point |
| 17:06.15 | torpor | anyone know what hapennned to the pulseaudio cmd line tool ? |
| 17:07.25 | Writchie | OM (the company) needs to decide what business it is in - OM the community will survive as long as there are ANY open phone platforms in the market. |
| 17:07.48 | edistar | Writchie: good points |
| 17:10.08 | gamin | I very much agree that once calling, sms and powermanagement work (mostly) the platform will take off. |
| 17:10.31 | Writchie | OM (the company) IMNSHO has lost credibility that is needed for this platform to see mass adoption. Who now would make a multi-billion bet on an uninterrupted supply of reliabile product. Creditbility now has to be regained which is always harder. |
| 17:10.45 | Writchie | s/billion/million/ |
| 17:11.08 | gamin | they placed their bet on the dash |
| 17:12.06 | edistar | gamin: that isn't even marketed under their own name, quite weak |
| 17:12.07 | Writchie | is dash OM or FIC |
| 17:12.11 | Writchie | FIC is 3 billion turnover company. |
| 17:12.19 | gamin | edistar: between sean's dream of an open platform and the business goals of FIC is quite a gap... |
| 17:12.25 | torpor | meh |
| 17:12.31 | torpor | this is all conjecture and speculation |
| 17:12.34 | SpeedEvil | I personally know about 4 devs I've talked to that are interested in playing iwth it - but only once calls are working and they can use it as a basic phone reliably. |
| 17:12.45 | SpeedEvil | but it's not hit that point yet |
| 17:12.45 | gamin | you don't find any info on who is invested in dash |
| 17:12.46 | torpor | if the next round of hardware can deliver at least a working phone and a good hacking community, it'll be fine. |
| 17:12.57 | torpor | what i want is an imx.31 based handheld linux device. |
| 17:13.38 | gamin | SpeedEvil: I think too that this is a necessary pre-condition |
| 17:14.06 | gamin | SpeedEvil: however, mickey is still surprised that the neo didn't sell better |
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| 17:14.40 | SpeedEvil | and a big reason the community hasn't done more (IMO) is that there is no schedule of work that needs to be done, none on what's being done by te core team, ... |
| 17:14.44 | Writchie | At a couple talks I've given, there were amazing numbers of people that would buy it if it worked as a basic phone just for the potential to run linux on it. Many of them would never do any development. |
| 17:14.45 | fish_ | woops, wrong window |
| 17:14.59 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 17:15.06 | gamin | SpeedEvil: that has been said so many times here :( |
| 17:15.14 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 17:15.27 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: its a rudderless ship going around in circles. |
| 17:15.47 | SpeedEvil | I don't think it's a rudderless ship going around in circles. |
| 17:16.14 | gamin | neither do I, but there was and still is a lack of information and communication |
| 17:16.21 | edistar | SpeedEvil: it's a ship only using one motor because the community motor can't be actived (cause of NDAs) ;) |
| 17:16.30 | SpeedEvil | It's a ship on a moderately determined course in a deep fog, with a lot of other tiny boats trying to follow along and help keep it off the rocks. And the radio seems to have stopped working. |
| 17:16.56 | *** join/#openmoko faern (n=faern@faern.olf.sgsnet.se) |
| 17:17.00 | mwester | The image in my mind is a ship with nobody at the wheel, and occasionally someone from FIC/OM dashes out of the cabin and corrects the wheel in one direction or another, then vanishes, leaving the ship at the mercy of the wind and waves for a bit again. |
| 17:17.09 | Writchie | and some rats were seen jumping the ship ;) |
| 17:17.31 | edistar | Writchie: if you mean harald, thats unfair |
| 17:18.27 | gamin | edistar: nah! harald only decided to be no longer a cost factor for FIC but he is still on board |
| 17:18.29 | Writchie | i didn't mean to imply that harald is a rat |
| 17:18.35 | edistar | ok ;) |
| 17:19.06 | Writchie | how about - one of the officers was seen jumping the ship into one of the lifeboats. |
| 17:19.24 | edistar | Writchie: much better ;) |
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| 17:21.18 | gamin | my impression is that the neo currently is doing leaps forward to being usable as daily phone |
| 17:22.15 | CM | I'd blame a lot of the issues at the new management |
| 17:22.28 | Writchie | New Management? |
| 17:22.40 | Writchie | and who was the "Old Management? |
| 17:22.54 | CM | Don't know.. |
| 17:23.13 | CM | Just know that the new ones are not listening to that devs |
| 17:23.13 | gamin | but since there is a new management, things seem to be goiong foeward |
| 17:23.29 | CM | gamin: Exactly, even though they took 5 steps back.. |
| 17:23.40 | edistar | we'll see.. |
| 17:23.49 | CM | I just want GTA02 to arrive.. |
| 17:23.52 | gamin | CM what 5 steps do you mean? |
| 17:24.13 | gamin | what went backward? |
| 17:24.23 | edistar | CM: me too |
| 17:24.23 | CM | gamin: I mean that there seem to be a lot of friction between the engineering team and the marketing/management |
| 17:24.30 | torpor | i'm quite happy with my now-multibooting neo .. i can boot from the nand, or from SD, and i can boot either the public openmoko release, my own openmoko release (its fat!), or qtopia .. |
| 17:24.35 | torpor | and all three let me make calls and stuff. |
| 17:24.48 | CM | gamin: When was the last time you saw any public announcement? |
| 17:24.50 | torpor | can't beat having a phone with multiple operating systems on it for sheer poser hacker factor |
| 17:24.52 | gamin | CM - there is not much know from the outside |
| 17:25.13 | CM | gamin: Exactly. It used to be open, Sean posted and mailed a lot |
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| 17:26.07 | gamin | I don't understand all these politics - I mean, the better the platform, the more phones they will sell |
| 17:26.19 | Writchie | weill, if they now have some engineering management (and process) and adult supervision that is a very good thing. |
| 17:26.22 | gamin | and they can't do all by themself |
| 17:26.41 | edistar | why doesn't Sean write anymore to the community? It seems that he has stopped actively.. |
| 17:26.59 | gamin | but he is still working for OM I assume? |
| 17:27.03 | torpor | its all a load of craqp |
| 17:27.22 | torpor | look at the gp2x for an example of the friction that can occur between a manufacturer and those who want to put linux on the device |
| 17:27.34 | torpor | craig is now making his own gp2x competitor .. the craiginator |
| 17:27.38 | CM | gamin: I think so, or he works for FIC |
| 17:27.43 | torpor | and the fact remains: its easier and easier to get hardware made these days. |
| 17:29.09 | Writchie | torpor: true - but it's not easy to reach the desired BOM points without volume |
| 17:29.32 | torpor | 5,000 is plenty volume |
| 17:29.37 | torpor | and a lot of people can affor that now |
| 17:29.38 | Writchie | bull |
| 17:29.44 | torpor | not bull |
| 17:30.02 | torpor | sell 5,000 units, you personally, at $400, with a $200 profit, and then tell me its bull. |
| 17:30.07 | torpor | its not bull |
| 17:30.08 | Writchie | 10,000 a week is needed |
| 17:30.30 | torpor | in fact a lot of linux guys could be serious money-makers if they only went for more hardware-planning logistics trips to taiwan and korea .. |
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| 17:30.46 | torpor | 10k a week? thats such incredible bullshit i can't even stand it. |
| 17:30.52 | torpor | you do *not* need to sell 10k a week to be profitable. |
| 17:30.56 | torpor | only if you're an apple wannabe |
| 17:31.10 | torpor | and there is a long way to go before anyone gets near apples #'s .. |
| 17:31.30 | Writchie | if you want to be a major player in the phone space need be in 100K - million per model |
| 17:31.30 | torpor | honest, thats such a load of crap i can't even tell you. i could get a device made myself right now, get 100 of them made, and make thousands in profit. |
| 17:31.36 | torpor | if i only had $50k to invest. |
| 17:31.49 | torpor | 'major player' is a lot of crap |
| 17:32.05 | torpor | honest, this is such a lot of crap i don't even know where to begin. |
| 17:32.12 | gamin | torpor: if the idea is good, plenty of vc's will push the money down your throat |
| 17:32.18 | Writchie | you counldn't even talk to qualcomm or ti with that kind of volume |
| 17:32.20 | torpor | you understand that there are millionaires selling a few 100 devices a month, and doing just fine .. |
| 17:32.44 | torpor | Writchie: qualcomm and TI are not the only players in the device space. you demonstrate your ignorance with such statements. |
| 17:33.15 | Writchie | i'm talking about phones - not devices |
| 17:33.17 | loufoque | Writchie: why do you need profit to make good hardware? |
| 17:33.34 | gamin | torpor: the community has spent >$2m on the neo1973, so should be no prob for you to get the money :) |
| 17:33.42 | torpor | gamin: what community? |
| 17:34.04 | gamin | openmoko - 7000 phones * 300$ |
| 17:34.20 | torpor | thats plenty |
| 17:34.34 | gamin | on gadgets that basically are not yet useful |
| 17:34.41 | torpor | i wanna make a music device that uses openmoko as its base platform |
| 17:34.52 | gamin | my point is: people are willing to invest upfront |
| 17:34.53 | torpor | <- got a new coldfire devkit today.. |
| 17:35.01 | Writchie | i doubt very much that Mr. Wang is impressed |
| 17:35.39 | gamin | Mr Wang = CEO or chinese version of john doe? |
| 17:35.47 | Writchie | CEO |
| 17:36.09 | edistar | gamin: but people won't invest if they don't see a product at all.. |
| 17:36.22 | edistar | gamin: only people with very much money.. |
| 17:36.30 | gamin | edistar: we only saw nice photoshop mock-ups... |
| 17:37.26 | edistar | gamin: and a big company named FIC behind it |
| 17:38.02 | loufoque | so the goal of openmoko is to impress big guys? |
| 17:38.16 | gamin | edistar: there are thousands of VCs out ther |
| 17:38.45 | torpor | well if anyone wants to start a new musical instrument company, lemme know. ;) |
| 17:38.50 | edistar | gamin: maybe, I don't have that much experience yet ;) |
| 17:38.50 | gamin | loufoque: for those who do the investment upfront it is a question of return on investment |
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| 17:44.38 | edistar | torpor: good luck then! |
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| 17:49.09 | gamin | can I use a 2.5mm->3.5mm adapter to use other earplugs for the neo? |
| 17:49.21 | SpeedEvil | yes\ |
| 17:49.31 | gamin | thanks |
| 17:50.18 | matsimoto | does anyone has a code snippet on how to use the aux button from gtk ? |
| 17:50.33 | gamin | do adapters 2,5mm -> 2 x 3.5mm: earplugs / micro exist? couldn't find any... |
| 17:51.12 | edistar | gamin: yes |
| 17:51.15 | borg_ | matsimoto: |
| 17:51.18 | borg_ | #define AUX_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x22 |
| 17:51.18 | borg_ | #define POWER_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x23 |
| 17:51.19 | borg_ | #define TOUCHSCREEN_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x14a |
| 17:51.25 | borg_ | what exactly do you need? |
| 17:51.32 | edistar | gamin: nokia supplies them with their phones |
| 17:51.41 | edistar | gamin: I think |
| 17:51.46 | gamin | last question: do the nokia 2.5mm gadgets have the same impedance, i.e are usable with the neo? |
| 17:52.03 | matsimoto | borg_: I like to capture the AUX button press to open a dialog is this a keyboard like interaction ? |
| 17:52.08 | edistar | gamin: I would think so, since there are standards.. |
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| 17:52.48 | gamin | the stiff cables of the neo earplugs are a bit annoying :( |
| 17:53.15 | borg_ | matsimoto: i guess there is no sane way to do it :( |
| 17:53.17 | gamin | so I'm looking for a nice replacement - non BT |
| 17:53.34 | borg_ | you have to get the events from /dev/input/event%d |
| 17:55.04 | matsimoto | borg_: oh, thats evil. You mean this is more a systems event then a GUI event ? |
| 17:55.26 | borg_ | matsimoto: i am working an neod at the momment, there it is done this way |
| 17:55.59 | mwester | gamin: http://mytreo.net/store/product.php?xProd=1004 |
| 17:56.02 | borg_ | perhaps i can make something like libneod, where you can get these events some time |
| 17:56.20 | gamin | mwester: thanks |
| 17:56.54 | borg_ | matsimoto: at the moment you can look in openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/buttonactions.c |
| 17:57.31 | borg_ | and copy gboolean neod_buttonactions_install_watcher() |
| 17:57.31 | borg_ | and gboolean neod_buttonactions_input_dispatch( GSource* source, GSourceFunc callback, gpointer data ) |
| 17:57.32 | borg_ | as a first hack |
| 17:58.10 | matsimoto | borg_: thanks, I will take a look. |
| 17:58.27 | matsimoto | could I receive notification from neod ? |
| 17:58.47 | torpor | anyone know how to turn off the 'gsm network connectd' messages? they're freakin' annoying .. |
| 17:59.09 | borg_ | matsimoto: not at the moment |
| 17:59.17 | borg_ | the only output of neod are these 2 menus |
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| 18:00.04 | matsimoto | borg_: are there any plans on how to dispatch theese events to other applications ? |
| 18:00.23 | borg_ | matsimoto: i dont no |
| 18:00.26 | borg_ | i guess there are none |
| 18:00.34 | borg_ | but i am willing to work on it |
| 18:01.19 | borg_ | but i will finisch my phone lock enhancement in neod first ;) |
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| 18:02.28 | edistar | borg_: are you german? |
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| 18:02.33 | matsimoto | I think there is a need on a concept on how to dispatch such events but I dont know if sockets like gsmd uses are a good approach |
| 18:03.08 | borg_ | edistar: yes |
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| 18:04.49 | edistar | borg_: ok, I also make mistakes like sh and sch often, that's why I thought so ;) |
| 18:05.14 | borg_ | :) |
| 18:05.14 | matsimoto | borg_: let me know when you have a concept or even begin to code may be we can share some ideas |
| 18:05.31 | borg_ | matsimoto: very good :) |
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| 18:12.56 | torpor | well i gotta say root-on-sd works so well, i'm just gonna leave it this way. nice to have 500megs of tracks on my phone! :) |
| 18:13.31 | borg_ | torpor: is it slower as on flash? |
| 18:13.41 | torpor | i can't really say to be honest. |
| 18:13.46 | borg_ | ok |
| 18:14.44 | emdete | gamin, mwester: are you shure that adapter is right? it has 3 connections, not 4 as the neo headset... i've found this one: http://wp1063710.wp098.webpack.hosteurope.de/handyzubehoer.cc/media/images/audioadapter_sam_e330_x460_25mm_400_big.jpg - aren't four needed (even if there is no micro)? |
| 18:16.22 | gamin | I found the article on wikipedia about the jack plugs (and should have looked there already in the first place): |
| 18:16.49 | torpor | i find it quite useable to be honest. |
| 18:16.51 | gamin | the mircophone will be short circuited (is that english?) against ground |
| 18:16.55 | torpor | i'm going to be leaving my phone this way. |
| 18:17.04 | torpor | all i need to do now is get gprs internet working and i'm set. |
| 18:17.10 | emdete | torpor: so you have one and it works? |
| 18:17.17 | torpor | yup |
| 18:17.29 | gamin | my phone makes phone calls too since one week |
| 18:17.31 | emdete | torpor: as i asked yesterday: what's the trouble with gprs? |
| 18:17.37 | edistar | torpor: didn't you build your own image? |
| 18:17.40 | gamin | gprs not yet tried |
| 18:18.09 | gamin | made my own image too with mokomakefile |
| 18:18.54 | edistar | torpor: why don't you host your own buildhost server? :P |
| 18:20.07 | torpor | edistar: too lazy! |
| 18:20.20 | torpor | i have made my own image and i'm booting it now |
| 18:20.25 | edistar | torpor: ok ;) |
| 18:20.31 | torpor | what i will do is tar up my SD filesystem and make it available, so people can untar and boot .. |
| 18:20.45 | torpor | as for gprs, i just haven't got it worked out yet, and i want to try to use settingsgui for it so its easy. |
| 18:21.02 | torpor | and i also wanna make a bluetooth-gprs router, so i can use that for internet on the go |
| 18:21.09 | torpor | then i will be very happy with my neo. |
| 18:21.23 | torpor | and then i'll do a youtube demo of it and people will see: the neo1973 is really quite useful right now! |
| 18:21.28 | emdete | torpor: have you tried gps also? |
| 18:21.46 | torpor | emdete: yup! it works! navit and agps demo.. |
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| 18:22.24 | emdete | torpor: i am a little bit sad about two thinks of the neo... battery does just last an hour if gprs is used and gps does not work very reliable :( |
| 18:22.55 | emdete | torpor: and the neo has position all the time? |
| 18:23.08 | emdete | torpor: do u use gllin? |
| 18:24.02 | gamin | torpor: is the agps demo in the feed? |
| 18:24.10 | gamin | or where did you get it from? |
| 18:26.03 | torpor | gllin, yup. |
| 18:26.08 | torpor | and agps demo in the feed, yup. |
| 18:26.18 | torpor | well i haven't tested gps much .. just got it working on this image today. |
| 18:26.31 | torpor | i'm trying to build a 'mega image' for others to use to get something nice from their neo's .. |
| 18:26.42 | torpor | so i've got the latest image, and a few nice toys onboard too .. |
| 18:27.48 | torpor | and now i'm gonna try pyroute. |
| 18:29.27 | edistar | how big is your image? |
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| 18:34.12 | emdete | torpor: so u include gllin in your image? |
| 18:34.44 | Vegar | some phone companies send GPRS settings as an SMS |
| 18:35.07 | Vegar | or as cell broadcasts |
| 18:35.18 | torpor | emdete: yup |
| 18:35.30 | torpor | edistar: so far about 120megs... |
| 18:35.30 | Vegar | I'm not quite sure what it is, but that would be interesting to support on the neo |
| 18:35.39 | emdete | Vegar: does the neo read those sms? |
| 18:35.53 | edistar | emdete: it doesn't yet I suppose |
| 18:36.20 | Writchie | the settings are usually customized for each particular supported phone. |
| 18:38.05 | CM | torpor: I tried running gps too today, but it's a real storm outside, so I was too lazy to get out and wouldn't get a fix |
| 18:38.27 | CM | Anyway, it logs to a file as far as I can tell.. Will fill the rootfs eventually |
| 18:38.30 | emdete | CM: have you seen my scripts? |
| 18:38.41 | CM | emdete: Nope, not yet :) |
| 18:38.46 | torpor | CM: i only tested it briefly. ;) |
| 18:38.51 | emdete | CM: i enhanced it a bit not using the pipe->file stuff |
| 18:38.56 | torpor | emdete: you have gps scripts? |
| 18:39.11 | CM | torpor: Heh, I used it on my normal rootfs, and I saw that it was shrinking.. |
| 18:39.21 | emdete | torpor: its in the wiki... but i enhanced it to use udp and a python client |
| 18:39.34 | torpor | okay thats something worth checking out. |
| 18:39.39 | torpor | i'll do that tomorrow |
| 18:39.43 | torpor | right now i'm playing with http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/routing/pyroute/ |
| 18:40.36 | CM | Ah, cool |
| 18:40.39 | emdete | i am not /that/ intersted in navigation, i save tracks only |
| 18:40.52 | CM | torpor: Please do film and make a youtube video |
| 18:40.56 | emdete | i would like to use google for display |
| 18:40.57 | CM | It will be a hit :) |
| 18:41.01 | abraxa_ | CM: Just edit the gllin startup script and remove the cp |
| 18:41.07 | CM | emdete: Like ScaredyCat's thing? |
| 18:41.24 | CM | abraxa_: Yes, I looked in the startup script |
| 18:41.24 | emdete | CM: what is ScaredyCat's thing? |
| 18:41.41 | CM | emdete: http://blog.automated.it/2007/11/21/here-i-am-right-here/ |
| 18:42.02 | CM | emdete: Click on the tracker application link :) |
| 18:43.07 | emdete | oups... cool! |
| 18:43.13 | CM | :) |
| 18:45.29 | torpor | hey cool .. pyroute runs! |
| 18:46.33 | CIA-14 | 03jserv * r3501 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/machine_gta01.c: |
| 18:46.33 | CIA-14 | Indentation with consistent coding style of gsmd. |
| 18:46.33 | CIA-14 | Remove C++ style comments. |
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| 18:50.15 | CIA-14 | 03jserv * r3502 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c: Fixlet to dead code in cpmb_detect_cb. |
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| 19:17.54 | folken | is anybody able to help me with devirginate? |
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| 19:23.15 | torpor | folken: gah! |
| 19:23.17 | torpor | bad! |
| 19:23.24 | torpor | i can help but i'm leaving right now. |
| 19:23.31 | torpor | if you need help tomorrow i'll be here. |
| 19:23.33 | torpor | hint: its not easy! |
| 19:23.49 | CM | Maybe the wiki has most info needed? |
| 19:23.51 | folken | torpor: oh, yes i have been finding that out.. past 10-12 hours. |
| 19:24.20 | folken | CM: i'm following the instructions to the book.. but numerous things are broken.. |
| 19:24.47 | folken | torpor: thanks for your offer. |
| 19:25.14 | CM | folken: Ok, good to know. I might get/have to use a debugboard soon too |
| 19:25.36 | torpor | its shit believe me.. i went through this. |
| 19:25.38 | folken | CM: i'll try to get the instructions a bit more uptodate. |
| 19:26.34 | CM | folken: Great :) |
| 19:27.30 | folken | but i think i completley bricked my phone .. |
| 19:28.06 | mbuf | folken, what did you do? |
| 19:28.10 | folken | since about 10 minutes i can't get it to do anything anymore. |
| 19:28.19 | folken | it doesn't vibrate when i turn it on. |
| 19:28.26 | mbuf | folken, i mean, how did you brick it? |
| 19:28.31 | folken | the battery has 3.77 volts, which should be enought. |
| 19:28.37 | CM | Oh.. Hmm.. |
| 19:28.56 | folken | mbuf: originally? nand erase all.. stupid me. |
| 19:29.08 | mbuf | folken, ok |
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| 19:29.22 | CoreDump | hehe |
| 19:29.50 | CoreDump | back when I had to devirginate it was rather easy and the documentation was quite good |
| 19:30.14 | folken | i was following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_re-flashing_the_bootloader |
| 19:30.27 | folken | but strangley enought it only says to connect the jtag. |
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| 19:30.44 | folken | there is no mentioning of the second usb cable going to the usb hub. |
| 19:30.54 | CM | folken: What about http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Devirginator |
| 19:31.43 | CM | Same as the README file it seems.. |
| 19:31.54 | CoreDump | right |
| 19:32.25 | folken | CM: i tried that one too.. |
| 19:32.31 | folken | it basically works.. |
| 19:32.36 | CoreDump | load module w/ proper parameter on host PC for the debugboard, connect phone to debug board, devirginate all stages but "0" |
| 19:33.02 | folken | i can load lowlevel foo up to the bootloader |
| 19:34.41 | folken | once i had the dfu-loading process working, up to the rootfs. During rootfs flash it aborted with an error. |
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| 19:35.31 | CoreDump | that sounds bad |
| 19:35.33 | mmontour | folken: get a working uboot and envionment flashed first, then do the rest with dfu-util (without needing the debugboard) |
| 19:36.19 | CoreDump | maybe your bad block table is toast? Dunno |
| 19:36.37 | folken | mmontour: i might have falsy configured the nand variables for the bootloader to incorrectly point the serial console to nirvana.. |
| 19:37.03 | folken | mmontour: if i could manually load the preboot_override.. |
| 19:38.05 | mmontour | Do you see the initial boot messages on the serial console? |
| 19:39.20 | folken | no |
| 19:39.30 | folken | and this is also bothering me: Error: arm7_9_common.c:561 arm7_9_execute_sys_speed(): timeout waiting for SYSCOMP & DBGACK, last DBG_STATUS: 4 |
| 19:39.51 | folken | could it be that my usb stack is confused?? |
| 19:41.24 | mmontour | I don't recognize that error message. For the serial console, make sure you loaded ftdi_sio with the right module options (product + vendor ID) |
| 19:42.55 | folken | mmontour: i do get ttyUSB1 & 0 |
| 19:43.13 | folken | mmontour: i can connect with minicom, but it doesn't show anything. |
| 19:43.53 | CoreDump | IIRC the console is connected to the display by default..or something heh |
| 19:44.00 | folken | mmontour: let me reboot my laptop, i think the usb stack is FUBARd, i had this situation once before. |
| 19:44.50 | *** part/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.static.se.wasadata.net) |
| 19:45.28 | mmontour | A reboot might help. On restart, be careful about the order that you do things (e.g. turn on, plug in, then run openocd / minicom) |
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| 20:00.33 | folken | fsck has a talent to show up at the most inconvinient of times. :) |
| 20:01.10 | CoreDump | =) |
| 20:01.21 | mmontour | Yeah, my company found that out last week after a power outage took down our main fileserver |
| 20:01.22 | CoreDump | ~lart ext3 ;) |
| 20:01.22 | apt | pushes the wall down onto ext3 ;) whilst whistling innocently |
| 20:04.15 | folken | ok now at least i can talk again to the neo. |
| 20:05.00 | folken | oh, btw. its a bad idea to boot the host pc with the debugboard connected. |
| 20:05.37 | CM | Not that I ever turn this comp off.. |
| 20:07.46 | folken | it complained that it was unable to initialize agpgart with an i945gm |
| 20:08.16 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 20:09.05 | folken | hmm.. the neo doesn't respond to reset halt |
| 20:09.21 | mmontour | Is the neo turned on? |
| 20:09.22 | folken | wait |
| 20:09.45 | folken | it took a while then said Target 0 halted |
| 20:10.03 | folken | but openocd complained: Error: arm7_9_common.c:561 arm7_9_execute_sys_speed(): timeout waiting for SYSCOMP & DBGACK, last DBG_STATUS: 4 |
| 20:11.00 | folken | poll says target state: running |
| 20:11.45 | folken | i was able to load low_level foo into ram |
| 20:11.59 | *** join/#openmoko poffy__ (n=poffy@c-98-199-135-173.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 20:13.09 | folken | but i cannot set the breakpoint: target must be halted to set breakpoints |
| 20:13.29 | folken | poll still says running, eventhough i entered reset halt |
| 20:14.23 | folken | and wait_halt says: timed out while waiting for target halt |
| 20:15.17 | mmontour | Does the reset button on the debug board do anything? |
| 20:17.29 | CM | ScaredyCat: Yeah, why are you not there? |
| 20:17.38 | folken | mmontour: it doesn't do anything interms of leds. |
| 20:17.55 | ScaredyCat | I guess I was rejected :( |
| 20:18.34 | folken | mmontour: i can hear the high pitched sound the board emmits turn to a higher note. |
| 20:20.18 | mmontour | I remember once seeing that state where the target wouldn't halt, but I can't remember what caused/fixed it |
| 20:20.48 | folken | mmontour: does the moko turn on the vibrator when one presses the button, without software on it? |
| 20:21.21 | folken | mmontour: because at the moment display stays blank and no vibration. |
| 20:21.27 | *** join/#openmoko jpozlovsky (n=jindra@rb5cc115.net.upc.cz) |
| 20:21.50 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@158.195.96.206) |
| 20:21.55 | mmontour | It's uboot that pulses the vibrator. With erased NAND you won't see anything (except through the debug board) when you turn it on |
| 20:22.13 | *** join/#openmoko bedboi (n=bedboi@nsc.ciup.fr) |
| 20:22.55 | folken | mmontour: so I should see something on the serial console? |
| 20:24.08 | mmontour | Nothing on the serial console until you have uboot, but "reset halt" etc. through openocd should work |
| 20:24.53 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789_ (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 20:27.01 | folken | mmontour: ok, after resetting/repluggin the debugboard a multitude of times, i can again do runtest 2 |
| 20:27.06 | folken | without it complaining.. |
| 20:27.17 | *** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@121.246.172.117) |
| 20:27.25 | folken | ah and poll returns again target halted. |
| 20:28.42 | mmontour | can you now load lowlevel_foo, set the breakpoint, and resume? |
| 20:30.26 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas4-ottawa23-1096745151.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 20:31.58 | Vegar | that's pretty nice |
| 20:32.03 | Vegar | which map formats does it read? |
| 20:32.18 | *** join/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@121.246.172.117) |
| 20:35.37 | *** part/#openmoko mbuf (n=mbuf@121.246.172.117) |
| 20:35.39 | folken | mmontour: should i see the leds on the debugboard blink when i type in the serial console? regardless of the state of neo? |
| 20:35.50 | CM | Vegar: It's using Open Street Map, at least that's what the mail to -devel says |
| 20:36.37 | mmontour | folken: I think so, but I don't have mine hooked up at the moment so I can't check |
| 20:37.43 | folken | CM, Vegar: a friend of mine compiled the portable gpsdrive version and uses that. Appart from some ui issues it works. |
| 20:38.20 | CM | folken: Cool :) |
| 20:39.16 | mmontour | folken: I have to go. Hope you get it working. |
| 20:39.30 | folken | mmontour: thank you very much for your assitance. |
| 20:43.16 | OJW | CM: hiya. I'm the one who wrote pyroute |
| 20:43.27 | ewon | OJW: nice |
| 20:43.41 | OJW | good to hear it actually runs on openmoko |
| 20:44.26 | Vegar | it looks quite nice |
| 20:46.09 | starox_ | About ui issue ... what's the right way to adapt ui to another phone ? make gtk2 theme and tell bitbake to use this theme for this machine ? |
| 20:49.03 | *** join/#openmoko Dmente (i=Dmente@190.172.28.193) |
| 20:49.51 | Dmente | HABLAS ESPAÑOL? |
| 20:50.00 | starox_ | NO |
| 20:50.40 | Dmente | HABLAS ESPAÑOL? |
| 20:51.41 | *** part/#openmoko Dmente (i=Dmente@190.172.28.193) |
| 20:52.39 | ewon | lol |
| 20:52.41 | ewon | wtf |
| 20:54.00 | *** join/#openmoko ne0h[] (n=Q8H4cKer@62.215.150.116) |
| 20:59.55 | Vegar | OJW: how complicated would it be to implement other map formats? |
| 21:00.22 | OJW | by "formats" do you mean map tile images, or vector data? |
| 21:00.44 | *** join/#openmoko PP|Spydon (n=lukl@h205n6c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com) |
| 21:01.01 | PP|Spydon | Anyone who knows if gta02 will be in time? |
| 21:01.34 | Vegar | OJW: well.. both |
| 21:01.38 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789__ (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:01.43 | *** join/#openmoko marsan (n=marsan@ti500720a080-12026.bb.online.no) |
| 21:04.22 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 21:05.33 | OJW | well you'd have to program them obviously... pyroute doesn't add any complexity, it should be as simple as showing that format in any other python/cairo program. I have been concentrating on tile images though, because my early experiments in vector maps were much much slower (even for extremely simple maps) - and making vector data look nice takes even more CPU |
| 21:06.04 | CM | OJW: Interesting :) |
| 21:06.19 | CM | OJW: And great work on the program |
| 21:07.08 | Vegar | I see |
| 21:07.34 | OJW | hi CM. thanks. it's still kind of a research platform. I see all these GPS/map apps that can't find routes for cyclists, makes me want to do something better ;) |
| 21:08.33 | OJW | Vegar: basically it's not on *my* todo list to add garmin IMG or whatever (since any good data will get integrated into openstreetmap eventually) but pyroute should support drawing whatever you want, if somebody writes the code |
| 21:09.24 | *** join/#openmoko ixs (n=andreas@lacht.ueber.gattinnen-im-netz.de) |
| 21:09.32 | Vegar | I was just wondering if it was made with support for other maps in mind, or if it was designed to work only with OSM |
| 21:10.23 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 21:13.02 | PP|Spydon | how is the "evaluation" going? ^^ |
| 21:13.27 | Vegar | PP|Spydon: check planet.openmoko.org |
| 21:13.44 | PP|Spydon | Aha I see |
| 21:13.45 | PP|Spydon | thx |
| 21:13.49 | OJW | what maps would you like to see on it? (bear in mind that the reason we do OpenStreetMap is the proprietary/non-Free/restrictive nature of most other map sources) it's not a complex program - map-drawing modules just get a cairo surface to write to, and a projection object to convert lat/long to x,y |
| 21:14.44 | OJW | e.g. TIGER will be in OSM soon enough, as will all the other public-domain maps |
| 21:17.19 | ScaredyCat | osm has awesome coverage of .nl |
| 21:17.32 | ScaredyCat | I'm just saying... |
| 21:18.00 | OJW | yeah, "Automotive Nav Data" (AND) donated their maps |
| 21:18.09 | CM | osm has some shitty coverage of .se |
| 21:18.14 | CM | I'm just saying... ;) |
| 21:18.32 | ScaredyCat | yeah, but .se .... there's like 10 people living there... |
| 21:18.33 | ScaredyCat | I'm just saying... |
| 21:19.02 | Vegar | .no is even worse |
| 21:19.04 | CM | About twice that, per square kilometer |
| 21:19.13 | ScaredyCat | OJW: ah, I am a little suprised that they don't seem to get a lot of publicity for it |
| 21:19.30 | *** join/#openmoko chris^ (n=kraetzi@p548AEBB9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:19.52 | Vegar | OJW: I happen to have some garmin maps, but that would require some reverse-engineering |
| 21:20.12 | ScaredyCat | libgarmin Vegar |
| 21:20.42 | OJW | really? I thought there were loads of OSM people in scandanavia (in norway especially) |
| 21:20.44 | ScaredyCat | -r |
| 21:20.46 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: are you saying it's already done? |
| 21:21.04 | Vegar | OJW: there are very few up north |
| 21:21.24 | ScaredyCat | Vegar http://libgarmin.sourceforge.net/ |
| 21:21.29 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@122-57-165-112.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 21:21.38 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: yeah, found it but it's still loading |
| 21:22.01 | ScaredyCat | wow, how could you possinbly have a worse connection than me! |
| 21:22.18 | Vegar | it's only my connection to sf.net that sucks |
| 21:22.19 | borg_ | is someone here who wants to make some graphics for an display lock in openmoko style? :) |
| 21:22.19 | OJW | maybe I just think that because at first OpenStreetMap party, there was like a whole class of norwegian university students who were all working on OSM... |
| 21:22.29 | Vegar | hehe |
| 21:22.56 | OJW | ScaredyCat: what do you mean re: publicity? |
| 21:23.07 | Vegar | meh |
| 21:23.18 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: I was hoping to have some fun reverse engineering it |
| 21:23.20 | ScaredyCat | for AND - you know like a freebie banner on the osm site, |
| 21:23.28 | CM | borg_: I wish I could, but I'm simply not a good artist. :P |
| 21:23.31 | ewon | intresting, I must give that lib a go with the files off my nuvi |
| 21:23.35 | ScaredyCat | a little osm thanks AND for example |
| 21:23.39 | CM | borg_: What kind of screen lock? Like the qtopia one? |
| 21:23.41 | ScaredyCat | I'm just saying... |
| 21:23.49 | borg_ | CM: yes, it is ready |
| 21:23.51 | borg_ | i need some images |
| 21:23.53 | ScaredyCat | Vegar: you can still re it.. |
| 21:23.57 | ScaredyCat | :D |
| 21:24.03 | ScaredyCat | Vegar meet wheel |
| 21:24.10 | Vegar | ScaredyCat: well.. yeah.. but now there's no fun in doing it |
| 21:24.13 | *** join/#openmoko b52deb_ (n=b52deb__@41.249.250.195) |
| 21:24.15 | Vegar | and I'd end up cheating after a while |
| 21:24.21 | CM | Hehe |
| 21:24.33 | borg_ | a key and a key hole or a cat and a basket |
| 21:24.39 | ScaredyCat | mv libgarmin libvegar |
| 21:24.40 | borg_ | or .... |
| 21:24.47 | borg_ | something then one can put in another thing :) |
| 21:24.55 | borg_ | (non adult pls :) ) |
| 21:24.59 | ScaredyCat | Cat and a basket gets my vote :) |
| 21:25.03 | borg_ | :D |
| 21:25.40 | ScaredyCat | make it so the graphice are replaceable |
| 21:26.19 | CM | ~fish ScaredyCat |
| 21:26.20 | apt | ACTION slaps ScaredyCat around with a large trout |
| 21:26.40 | ScaredyCat | !googlefight ScaredyCat vs CM |
| 21:26.41 | cdbot2 | By results on Google: CM beats ScaredyCat by 567,000,000 to 24,500! |
| 21:26.42 | borg_ | ScaredyCat: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/7c372ad4586f90133a5a0726f666f8df.png |
| 21:26.47 | ScaredyCat | :'( |
| 21:26.55 | CM | Hehe |
| 21:27.03 | borg_ | you can replace the background, the green thing, the red thing and an image which is shown when dragging |
| 21:27.18 | CM | borg_: Ah, cool |
| 21:27.19 | *** join/#openmoko Nial1 (n=bobyn@62-30-147-26.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 21:27.22 | ScaredyCat | noce |
| 21:27.25 | ewon | god damn I love the sirf-III |
| 21:27.25 | ScaredyCat | cnie |
| 21:27.28 | ScaredyCat | gneeh! |
| 21:27.29 | borg_ | it works nice |
| 21:27.29 | ewon | gets a lock inside my apartments |
| 21:27.30 | ScaredyCat | nice |
| 21:27.37 | borg_ | but i am too dumb to make pictures :D |
| 21:27.43 | CM | ScaredyCat: No more drinks for you tonight.. :-P |
| 21:27.45 | Vegar | your apartments? you have several? |
| 21:28.16 | ScaredyCat | it's when I start singing you want to worry CM |
| 21:28.23 | CM | Hehe |
| 21:29.07 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789_ (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:32.26 | *** part/#openmoko Nial1 (n=bobyn@62-30-147-26.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 21:32.47 | balrog-kun | mickey|sports: pong |
| 21:35.39 | *** join/#openmoko MuffY (n=chatzill@s55928932.adsl.wanadoo.nl) |
| 21:36.26 | borg_ | mh |
| 21:36.40 | borg_ | i guess it would be nice to make the black parts of the lock tranparent |
| 21:36.50 | ScaredyCat | yes... |
| 21:36.54 | borg_ | mmmh |
| 21:36.56 | ScaredyCat | ooh , a chicken and a pot |
| 21:36.58 | borg_ | is this possible with gtk? :) |
| 21:37.13 | *** join/#openmoko mboldisc (n=mike@c-66-41-225-167.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 21:37.18 | CM | ScaredyCat: Pot, meet kettle? |
| 21:37.25 | CM | Or what is that saying? |
| 21:37.49 | ScaredyCat | pot calling the kettle black |
| 21:37.51 | OJW | "pot calling the chicken black"? |
| 21:38.08 | ScaredyCat | no, "the chicken is in the pot" |
| 21:38.21 | ScaredyCat | "Variable this is knife" |
| 21:38.25 | ScaredyCat | "the chicken is in the pot" |
| 21:38.32 | OJW | don't count your pots before they hatch? |
| 21:39.12 | ewon | heh, I'm 8313.6km from home |
| 21:39.26 | ScaredyCat | it's a quote from "Clear and Present Danger" |
| 21:39.42 | OJW | oh yeah, my "geometry.py" doesn't work at all... |
| 21:40.56 | CM | Hmm.. Maybe eggs -> basket |
| 21:41.16 | SpeedEvil | eggs -> basketOne |
| 21:41.17 | CM | borg_: Themable locking! :-) |
| 21:41.36 | OJW | like downloadable screensavers? |
| 21:41.36 | CM | *nod* allEggs -> oneBasket |
| 21:41.40 | borg_ | CM: i will make a directory where you can put images and he will choose them randomly |
| 21:41.50 | CM | borg_: Cool |
| 21:41.54 | borg_ | so you get everytime the lock comes in a nice new thing to play with :) |
| 21:41.59 | borg_ | but someone has to make the images :D |
| 21:42.24 | CM | borg_: Maybe make a template, with just dashed lines or so, showing where things are being moved to and from |
| 21:42.38 | CM | Then people can just add a new layer and draw on that |
| 21:42.39 | borg_ | ok |
| 21:42.49 | ScaredyCat | sounds like an idea |
| 21:43.52 | ScaredyCat | Ingenting under solen är beständigt |
| 21:44.25 | CM | borg_: I'll be happy to draw something, or at least cut and paste something silly together |
| 21:44.39 | CM | ScaredyCat: Heh, where did that come from? |
| 21:44.55 | ScaredyCat | yeah, download random pics off bigjuggs.com |
| 21:44.58 | *** join/#openmoko bmk789__ (n=bmk789@74-132-81-162.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 21:45.09 | ScaredyCat | CM: that would be telling ;) |
| 21:45.25 | ScaredyCat | http://oaks.nvg.org/swedish-proverbs.html |
| 21:47.42 | *** join/#openmoko dotmef (n=mef@mx1.bitwise.org) |
| 21:49.25 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@archangel.kolej.mff.cuni.cz) |
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| 21:58.43 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 21:59.28 | borg_ | CM: http://homepages.upb.de/olaf/dinge/openmoko/display_lock/ |
| 21:59.56 | borg_ | start.png, some_dragging.png and end.png are for the explanation |
| 22:01.56 | *** join/#openmoko ^leo^` (n=user@r201-221-37-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) |
| 22:03.18 | OJW | so this "drag upwards" command will be atop the picture of someone's skirt? ;) |
| 22:03.45 | *** part/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 22:06.11 | *** join/#openmoko playya (n=playya@p508B0A53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 22:13.08 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__ (i=disguy__@gateway/tor/x-09e3a48ceac3ed07) |
| 22:17.45 | Vegar | OJW: regarding your threading issue.. |
| 22:18.08 | Vegar | would it be possible to use urllib.open and then retrieve the data in a loop? |
| 22:18.47 | Vegar | in the loop you can then check if it's time for the thread to die (and possible clean up any half-downloaded files) |
| 22:18.55 | OJW | ok. but then we're assuming that the downloading of the data is slow |
| 22:19.08 | OJW | what if the initial connection is the slow bit? |
| 22:19.12 | Vegar | urllib.urlopen* |
| 22:19.40 | OJW | e.g. if the delay occurs before you get the first byte |
| 22:20.02 | ewon | I'm tempted to rewrite gpsdrive to make it less awful to use |
| 22:20.19 | ewon | throw in some SDL image routines, so one can at least click and drag the god-damned map |
| 22:20.34 | *** join/#openmoko poffy__ (n=poffy@c-98-199-135-173.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 22:20.47 | Vegar | OJW: well.. then you need to go even lower |
| 22:20.55 | borg_ | CM: http://homepages.upb.de/olaf/dinge/openmoko/display_lock/openmoko-display-lock-readme.txt |
| 22:21.00 | *** join/#openmoko hhf423 (n=chatzill@A7223.a.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 22:21.32 | hhf423 | moin |
| 22:21.39 | borg_ | nabend |
| 22:21.58 | hhf423 | oder so, ja :-) |
| 22:22.00 | Vegar | OJW: asynchronous sockets |
| 22:22.45 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=khmhm@dsl51B66462.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 22:22.55 | OJW | yeah that's always an option. we go from a oneliner to an awful lot of code though, quite quickly... |
| 22:23.11 | Vegar | yeah |
| 22:23.18 | OJW | having a "kill thread" command would be useful |
| 22:24.09 | Vegar | you might also want to stop downloading tiles if the user moves away from a tile before it's downloaded |
| 22:24.42 | OJW | yes, that should be easy enough (though it still relies on being able to interrupt a download) |
| 22:24.54 | Vegar | yeah |
| 22:26.44 | hhf423 | hmm, latest qtopia asks for pin but does not manage to go into right sound state without help |
| 22:27.40 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@25.Red-80-39-115.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 22:27.57 | hhf423 | calling works, receiving calls work, sms work but no sound during a call. but the rining works. strange |
| 22:31.11 | matsimoto | does anyone know what I have to setup in alsamixer to hear the one who has called me on the speaker not the handset ? |
| 22:32.45 | hhf423 | alsactl restore handset something |
| 22:33.44 | hhf423 | awww, crap, debug says pin is requested but dialer does not pop up. why is that? |
| 22:33.45 | matsimoto | hehe, yes to restore to the handset that ist ok, but I want the callee audio on my external speaker |
| 22:34.12 | hhf423 | use gsmspeakerout.state |
| 22:35.36 | matsimoto | ahh ok sounds perfekt, but where can I get it ? |
| 22:36.04 | hhf423 | its in /etc |
| 22:36.59 | matsimoto | sorry, of course ... :-[ too late for me. |
| 22:38.24 | hhf423 | no worries :-) |
| 22:39.41 | CM | borg_: Ah, thanks :) |
| 22:42.10 | matsimoto | any chance to avoid the audio feedback when enabling Mic2 in gsmspeakerout.state ? |
| 22:43.27 | hhf423 | the f... battery applet is giving timeouts again and screwing it all up... |
| 22:43.43 | hhf423 | matsimoto: probably be playing around with the mixer |
| 22:45.17 | matsimoto | hhf423: tried already, but the mic has only 3 steps and when reducing speaker volume it is not loud enough. Looks like a hardware or software workaround issue like echo cancellation!? |
| 22:47.58 | hhf423 | if my terminal emu is screwed up ad I want to delete a character in vi, which code is that? |
| 22:48.15 | hhf423 | I mean like "dd" deletes a whole line, what deletes just a char? |
| 22:48.29 | cjb_ie | x |
| 22:48.42 | hhf423 | matsimoto: yeah, probably. good sound is hardware usually... |
| 22:49.20 | matsimoto | lets hope that had an eye on that when developing 02 |
| 22:49.27 | hhf423 | cjb_ie: thanks, that worked |
| 22:49.48 | hhf423 | matsimoto: sure hope so, but I will not hold my breath :-) |
| 22:50.20 | matsimoto | :) |
| 22:53.13 | hhf423 | whooho |
| 22:53.43 | hhf423 | after providing PIN via libgsmtool and restarting x it now registers |
| 22:53.49 | hhf423 | pathetic |
| 22:57.10 | *** part/#openmoko matsimoto (n=barmeier@dslb-088-072-026-072.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 23:03.06 | *** join/#openmoko stuffcorpse (n=pickle@60-234-225-122.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 23:04.25 | doc|home | "Unfortunately, a hardware bug in power management with GTA02v4 has required a fifth revision of the hardware for GTA02. It's a bit of a shame that the release will be delayed even further, but I'd rather have good hardware later, than something broken right now." |
| 23:04.46 | doc|home | are we now talking after christmas or is that the one that delayed it until christmas? |
| 23:05.42 | SpeedEvil | Well. |
| 23:05.44 | OJW | OMG no OM wrapped under christmas tree? |
| 23:05.58 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-084-057-189-046.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 23:06.04 | doc|home | heh |
| 23:06.12 | SpeedEvil | the 'christmas' date was basically assuming a similar timeline as for GTA01 |
| 23:06.24 | SpeedEvil | and some of the milestones have passed by some time now |
| 23:06.33 | *** join/#openmoko playya_ (n=playya@p508B23DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:06.49 | doc|home | hmmm, ok, I thought that was a re-set date based on a recent hardware revision |
| 23:08.02 | Writchie | SpeedEvil: looks like your date would have been about right! |
| 23:08.48 | doc|home | so, given that power management still sucks, the hardware is still buggy, and there's lots of software that's just not ready, might it not be an idea to scrap the neo1973 as it stands now? Visually the bar has moved with the iphone. don't get me wrong, I really want a neo, but I think it won't compete at any level other than the hacker one :/ |
| 23:09.33 | OJW | doc|home: buy an iphone if that's what you really want |
| 23:09.44 | doc|home | ugh |
| 23:09.59 | doc|home | I'd never touch an iphone |
| 23:10.36 | OJW | don't feel like tweaking mr job's nipples to zoom on the map? |
| 23:10.43 | Writchie | at this point there is no reason to ship hardware beond GTA01 until its verified that the hardware works to implied specs |
| 23:12.15 | doc|home | I've no interest in the iphone personally, I like the neo as a mini-computer, much like the nokia n800 is, and that's not really what the iphone is. The iphone is whatever apple wants it to be. |
| 23:12.34 | CM | mwester: Just say it like it is, you like being a bit dirty.. :P |
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| 23:14.26 | mwester | doc|home: But I'd love to have one to play with, because I'm curious about what the various vendors want things to be. Vista is rather the same -- if I didn't have to pay for the upgrade and give up a rather expensive bit of hardware, I'd love to play with it (and see if its as bad as everyone says!) |
| 23:15.26 | doc|home | mwester: yeah, sure, as long as I could give it back. :) |
| 23:16.12 | doc|home | all I'm saying is from the hardware point of view, ignoring the battery stupidity, it's an amazing piece of hardware in how it's so compact. And that's not something that can be said for the neo |
| 23:16.19 | doc|home | oh, and, at&t-- |
| 23:17.15 | PP|Spydon | Developers, developers, developers, developers... |
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| 23:19.03 | PP|Spydon | yeah well the developers are doing a great work |
| 23:19.07 | PP|Spydon | @ openmoko |
| 23:19.08 | PP|Spydon | ! |
| 23:19.16 | PP|Spydon | I think... |
| 23:19.25 | StealthCP | I was just wondering, with the resent hardware revisions to GTA02v4, will it be released before Christmas? |
| 23:19.45 | CM | StealthCP: I'd say that highly unlikely.. :( |
| 23:19.55 | StealthCP | Thought so :) |
| 23:20.16 | StealthCP | heh, it's the only thing on my Christmas list, apart from new slippers |
| 23:20.36 | CM | OJW: You can't get hold of a GTA01? |
| 23:21.09 | OJW | CM: I aim to use it as a hackable GPS terminal. So kind'a require the GPS |
| 23:21.27 | CM | But there is gps on gta01 too |
| 23:21.42 | StealthCP | I'm planning to study Electronics and sw engineering next year, I'd hoped the Neo1973 and OM would be a nie little programming project for me to do :P |
| 23:21.54 | CM | I've tried it, but I didn't get a fix because I didn't go out in the pouring rain |
| 23:22.17 | balrog-kun | CM: sissie :p |
| 23:22.21 | doc|home | it's water powered? :) |
| 23:22.26 | CM | balrog-kun: Hehe.. :P |
| 23:22.38 | CM | I didn't want my hair^W Neo wet! |
| 23:22.46 | balrog-kun | right! |
| 23:22.54 | CM | :P |
| 23:22.56 | OJW | actually SpeedEvil is already doing gps stuff? |
| 23:23.11 | CM | Sounded like torpor got it working today too |
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