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| 00:41.00 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 604 has been created by elrond+bugzilla.openmoko.org@samba-tng.org |
| 00:41.01 | cdbot2 | * * DFU at bootdelay conflicts with normal boot nand read |
| 00:41.02 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=604 |
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| 01:01.42 | Elrond | CoreDump|afk - could you consider obfuscating emailaddreses in "bug created" messages? |
| 01:19.03 | SpeedEvil | high-rez: you don't do it _all_ in software. For example, the hardware might be smart enough to tell 'sample from x to y microseconds after the sync pulse, interrupt me when you've got the packet. |
| 01:19.40 | SpeedEvil | high-rez: rather than actually requiring the CPU to do the nanosecond scale timings. Much like the GPS chip does. |
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| 03:21.04 | mickey_fic | morning |
| 03:21.09 | aloril | morning |
| 03:21.31 | aloril | any news yet about QA? |
| 03:28.09 | mickey_fic | this will happen tomorrow + thursday |
| 03:36.24 | aloril | cool! |
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| 03:55.54 | freak132 | O_O |
| 03:56.22 | freak132 | aloril talks? ... aloril is someone's chat client with automated responses isnt it? |
| 03:57.22 | cjb | a person's chat client with automated responses. |
| 03:57.43 | freak132 | hmmm... i should figure out how to do that |
| 04:00.34 | aloril | freak132: xchat supports scripting |
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| 04:01.36 | freak132 | aloril: yea, i know. i just havent gotten around to learning it yet. know a good site for getting started with it? |
| 04:02.31 | aloril | google got xchat and python (and maybe scripting too) |
| 04:02.38 | aloril | s:got:for: |
| 04:03.04 | freak132 | ah, and perl i think |
| 04:05.38 | aloril | yeah, pick your favorite language ;-) |
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| 05:18.33 | Rakshasa | morning |
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| 05:43.39 | CM | counter |
| 05:43.39 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 3 days 03:08:10 (3.131±3.1 days) (1452;227) |
| 05:46.14 | CM | aloril: Tried to update your wiki with the QA info, but Edit doesn't work |
| 05:46.35 | aloril | oh? what did it say? |
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| 05:47.53 | CM | Noting, just hanged for 5 minutes |
| 05:48.22 | aloril | for some reason it has been slow yesterday and it seems to be slow today too (I don't run it myself, so I don't know more about what is going on) |
| 05:48.30 | CM | Ok |
| 05:48.43 | aloril | it does respond eventually though |
| 05:48.45 | CM | Only wanted to add the Q/A dates |
| 05:48.48 | CM | Ok |
| 05:49.14 | aloril | you mean "tomorrow + thursday" ? |
| 05:50.04 | aloril | (isn't "tomorrow"=="thursday"?) |
| 05:50.26 | CM | I'd like to think so too.. |
| 05:50.53 | CM | But I'm assuming mickeyl is working so hard he thought it's still tuesday |
| 05:51.04 | CM | So they've started today :D |
| 05:51.11 | aloril | hehe |
| 05:51.55 | aloril | it could be read also as literal answer to question "news about QA" at that time |
| 05:52.53 | CM | Hmm.. Na.. This will happen = QA happening |
| 05:54.50 | aloril | ok |
| 06:06.35 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2236 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/neo1973-chargefast.patch: use pcf50606 fastcharge codepath only for GTA01 |
| 06:07.56 | mickey_fic | uhm, right# |
| 06:08.02 | mickey_fic | all these timezones are making me sick |
| 06:08.06 | mickey_fic | on weekend we |
| 06:08.09 | mickey_fic | ll have news |
| 06:08.12 | mickey_fic | i think |
| 06:08.19 | mickey_fic | how the testing worked |
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| 06:10.03 | CM | mickey_fic: Thanks for the info :) |
| 06:12.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2237 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-gta02.patch: (log message trimmed) |
| 06:12.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: GTA02: |
| 06:12.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * make sure pcf50633 board-level code is built |
| 06:12.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * fix PLL configuration to assume 12MHz crystal |
| 06:12.37 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * disable NAND write protection |
| 06:12.39 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * don't initialize jbt6k74 via 24xx SPI |
| 06:12.41 | CIA-24 | openmoko: * fix stock partition table base sizes |
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| 06:24.05 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]] |
| 06:24.32 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2238 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (neo1973-chargefast.patch uboot-gta02.patch): fix syntax error |
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| 06:26.21 | Mandarino | counter |
| 06:26.22 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 3 days 02:46:49 (3.116±3.1 days) (1453;227) |
| 06:27.39 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03laforge * r2239 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb: start building gta02v1 uboot images |
| 06:29.17 | aloril | (assuming of course they are OK (knocks on wood)) |
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| 07:37.06 | TRIsoft | morning |
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| 07:51.33 | SpeedEvil | Are you sure? |
| 07:51.37 | SpeedEvil | morningcounter |
| 07:54.16 | rwhitby | morning will occur in +- 12 hours |
| 07:54.46 | rwhitby | now *thats* a counter you can trust ;-) |
| 07:54.51 | mickey_fic | hehe |
| 07:55.17 | TRIsoft | i'm still booting, must be morning :D |
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| 07:58.27 | koen | ~ugt |
| 07:58.31 | apt | [ugt] Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 08:03.14 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 08:03.54 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi) |
| 08:04.04 | florian | good morning |
| 08:08.11 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 08:08.33 | LuitvD | counter |
| 08:08.34 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 3 days 01:55:43 (3.080±3.1 days) (1454;227) |
| 08:09.05 | LuitvD | what? those last 6 hours took way longer then 6 hours |
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| 08:23.11 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 08:23.22 | LuitvD | mornin' |
| 08:24.05 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[User_talk:Flerchjj]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]] [[Wishlist_-_Hardware_-_Novel_Devices]] [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] |
| 08:24.48 | SpeedEvil | rwhitby: shifts to summertime. |
| 08:25.07 | rwhitby | damn! +- 13 hours then |
| 08:25.29 | rwhitby | (that covers leap seconds as well) |
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| 08:32.43 | BlackFog | moin all |
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| 08:42.18 | Stephmw | mornin' |
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| 08:47.32 | Stephmw | Elrond: woohoo, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.openjdk.general/266 |
| 08:49.35 | CM | Stephmw: What is the fbtoolkit? |
| 08:50.01 | Stephmw | CM: direct framebuffer outout (and ts input) support for J2SE |
| 08:50.06 | Stephmw | *output |
| 08:50.20 | CM | Aha, nice. :) |
| 08:50.34 | CM | Sounded a bit like like that, but I had to ask |
| 08:51.12 | Stephmw | yeah, still thinking of a 'proper' name... but tbh, I'm kinda taken by fbtoolkit |
| 08:51.38 | Stephmw | other suggestiong, fbtk, fb-toolkit, <codename> just didn't seem accessible enough |
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| 08:52.56 | nobody96 | moi |
| 08:53.01 | nobody96 | +n |
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| 09:24.55 | aloril | what is reasonable time for "QA OK <-> can order now" ? |
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| 09:25.24 | aloril | week (5 work days)? |
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| 09:56.15 | holtmann | lrg: Btw. the code bluetooth_pcm.c didn't help. |
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| 10:02.04 | lrg | holtmann: ok, I'll have XorA take a look when he's back on Monday. |
| 10:03.48 | lrg | holtmann: fwiw, it's probably something simple as he could not really test it fully at the time. |
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| 10:06.14 | schurig | is the $350 price for developer's, too? |
| 10:06.54 | schurig | Maybe I can convince my wife and work on Neo, GPS to add a Openstreetmap tracker/editor onto the phone |
| 10:06.59 | LuitvD | $350 is the price for the device, whatever you are... |
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| 10:07.46 | LuitvD | the only way you can get other prices is when you're an educational organisation |
| 10:07.59 | LuitvD | (AFAIK) |
| 10:15.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 605 has been created by ruediger@blueboot.org |
| 10:15.01 | SpeedEvil | where ? |
| 10:15.02 | cdbot2 | * * initscripts not compatible to busybox |
| 10:15.03 | SpeedEvil | peices? |
| 10:15.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=605 |
| 10:15.06 | SpeedEvil | prices? |
| 10:15.49 | SpeedEvil | I've never seen discussion of other prices than $350 |
| 10:16.22 | *** join/#openmoko Bish (n=tehr00t@pD9E567D4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:16.50 | Stephmw | aye, I've never heard of any other price either |
| 10:16.53 | schurig | sparq: like "Honey, I want to educate so that you know I love you" ?? :-) |
| 10:16.56 | Stephmw | $350 is already very cheap |
| 10:17.18 | Stephmw | schurig: 'pick up the soap please _honey_'? |
| 10:17.44 | sparq | schurig: "So, as long as we're talking, did you see the latest issue of Nature?" |
| 10:17.45 | LuitvD | heard something about educational use of the device, if a school wants to buy a bunch of Neos, that they should just contact FIC |
| 10:18.15 | schurig | why should schools need/want phones for educational purposes? |
| 10:18.29 | schurig | to teach kids how to phone? That's not the job of a school! |
| 10:18.52 | schurig | to teach kits how to whack Linux on a device? They would be much better of with a 100$ single board computer |
| 10:19.45 | guaqua | doing a class on embedded device development goes a lot further with a phone... |
| 10:20.32 | holtmann | lrg: Hopefully. This is the only missing piece for headset support (besides an UI integration). I verified with a CSR development board that the headset code works fine with various headset. |
| 10:20.41 | schurig | guaqua: doing embedded design goes a lot further if you have an SBC with lots of free GPIOs, so that you actually can interface stuff to it |
| 10:21.12 | SpeedEvil | schurig: has exposed I2C |
| 10:21.29 | SpeedEvil | Tying stuff to I2C is almost trivial. |
| 10:21.30 | guaqua | well think what you may |
| 10:22.23 | schurig | SpeedEvil: with i2c than you can't teach them about IRQs, e.g level/edge, reaction time, whatever |
| 10:23.30 | schurig | anyway, a phone controlling via i2c some robot device would be fun anyway for school kids |
| 10:25.05 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Sjf2410-linux]] [[Wish_List]] |
| 10:25.43 | hrw | SpeedEvil: AVR32 based devboard costs 69 USD and allow to make embedded non-gui development |
| 10:32.09 | SpeedEvil | I agree, it's not ideal for all. |
| 10:32.17 | SpeedEvil | It's good for some development. |
| 10:33.12 | *** join/#openmoko LWT001 (n=lwt@61.145.141.8) |
| 10:33.23 | schurig | Stephmw: is there some web shop somewhere to order such a phone? |
| 10:34.50 | SpeedEvil | schurig: not now. |
| 10:34.52 | SpeedEvil | Later. |
| 10:35.24 | schurig | I just thought that the current developers must have got their phones somewhere. Not all are as lucky as hrw to get one for free :-) |
| 10:35.37 | hrw | schurig: two |
| 10:35.47 | schurig | hrw: ok, send me one then :-) |
| 10:36.04 | schurig | hrw: I'll also finish the Marvell driver for you then :-) |
| 10:36.06 | Stephmw | schurig: I believe existing developers were handpicked for their existing participation and experience |
| 10:36.26 | Stephmw | schurig: and sent devices |
| 10:37.10 | schurig | oh, they participated first and got then devices? Running openmoko on other hardware/inside qemu then? |
| 10:38.09 | guaqua | most likely participation in other similar projects and experience aswell |
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| 10:40.15 | aloril | counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) |
| 10:40.15 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) |
| 10:40.54 | aloril | also added blurbs about GTA02, etc.. and 2 'new' news items and fudged probabilities |
| 10:41.30 | aloril | (blurb: hardware list/speculation, buyer target, etc..) |
| 10:44.30 | *** join/#openmoko cheesy (n=daniel@pd95b5e66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:48.24 | *** join/#openmoko stratus (i=stratus@conference/debconf/x-a0c078e719fd651b) |
| 10:48.25 | aloril | also added 3 days extra for (don't know how much time it takes after assuming QA is OK) |
| 10:48.26 | aloril | counter |
| 10:48.26 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 5 days 01:11:33 (5.050±4.0 days) (1455;227) |
| 10:48.55 | aloril | (one day of those is taken by increasing lower limit ;-) |
| 10:53.53 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 11:03.25 | schurig | hrw: btw, I can send commands to the Marvell CF card and receive answers, e.g. the card tells the MAC address, channels, firmware version etc. Quite nice :-) |
| 11:06.41 | *** join/#openmoko boggi (i=boggi@naxa.td.org.uit.no) |
| 11:06.56 | boggi | hi |
| 11:07.41 | Boggibill | anyone knows when this phone will be for sale in norway? |
| 11:07.41 | aloril | Boggibill: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 11:07.49 | hrw | schurig: which sources I should fetch to test it? |
| 11:08.18 | schurig | hrw: it doesn't associate yet, and event "ifconfig eth1 up" doesn't work |
| 11:08.32 | schurig | hrw: so I guess that is not much to test, only to participate |
| 11:08.40 | schurig | hrw: my sources are in the linuxtogo project |
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| 11:10.41 | sixfeet | tach |
| 11:10.42 | Boggibill | thanks aloril |
| 11:10.48 | aloril | np |
| 11:10.51 | sixfeet | counter |
| 11:10.52 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 5 days 00:49:08 (5.034±4.0 days) (1456;227) |
| 11:12.14 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 11:12.58 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning_ (n=blueligh@222-155-130-152.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 11:13.59 | hrw | schurig: can those patches be applied to 2.6.22-rc4 git tree? libertas was added into mainline |
| 11:14.15 | schurig | hrw: I don't know |
| 11:14.39 | hrw | k |
| 11:14.45 | schurig | hrw: I apply them to libertas-2.6, because this is the way how my patches go upstream (libertas-2.6 -> linux-wireless-dev -> Jeff Garzik -> Linus Torvalds) |
| 11:15.38 | schurig | hrw: if you checkout the full project, you simple to "make clone" (you can speedup the clone if you put "GIT_REFERENCE=--reference /usr/src/linux-wireless-dev" (or whatever, could be linux-git) into Makefile.local |
| 11:15.54 | schurig | hrw: this will clone the libertas-2.6, and apply the patches on top of it |
| 11:16.00 | schurig | using quilt |
| 11:16.38 | schurig | hrw: if we need to talk more about this, then maybe better in #libertas |
| 11:16.54 | hrw | sure. but on my laptop I have totally patched kernel now |
| 11:20.12 | Elrond | Stephmw - Why did you post the fbtoolkit URL directly to me? |
| 11:20.34 | Elrond | hrw - Hi! :-) |
| 11:20.55 | hrw | ho Elrond |
| 11:21.13 | Stephmw | Elrond: you were randomly selected.. actually, no it was just because you helped look up the XServer sizes ;) |
| 11:21.28 | Elrond | Stephmw - Ahh. ;o) |
| 11:23.26 | Elrond | Hmm, looking at the svn logs, GTA02 seems to mature... |
| 11:24.56 | aloril | about counter page: If I have said something in "too sure", I would like hear about it and change it to be less sure |
| 11:25.07 | aloril | (or opposite ;-) |
| 11:27.18 | Elrond | GTA02 has 128k of u-boot env.. yuck... what am I supposed to put there? ;o) |
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| 11:29.20 | drath | guess it's a large page NAND then |
| 11:29.20 | *** join/#openmoko jean (n=jean@85-18-201-163.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 11:30.08 | drath | using less than one block would make updating the envrionment more complex and error prone |
| 11:30.09 | Elrond | drath - Maybe. |
| 11:30.17 | ynezz | world's first uboot virus ;p |
| 11:30.22 | drath | hehehe |
| 11:31.31 | roh | drath not maybe. shure... besides that.. mtd only supports partitions which end on block boundarys afaik ;) |
| 11:32.10 | Elrond | ynezz - *lol* :-)) |
| 11:32.27 | roh | and no. gta02 is not mature.. its only getting its first hands on hacking on the first protoype we have ever. will take some time and atleast one or 2 devel-revisions |
| 11:32.35 | Elrond | hmpf... reading u-boot patches without data sheets is no fun. :-| |
| 11:33.07 | balrog-kun | yes, it is large page |
| 11:33.08 | Elrond | roh - So you have ONE prototype already around? |
| 11:33.11 | balrog-kun | there is not small page NANDs of that size |
| 11:33.15 | ynezz | Elrond: print 'em all in work then ;) |
| 11:33.22 | roh | Elrond patience ;) you know you will get them |
| 11:33.46 | Elrond | roh - I'm looking for the PCF datasheet. |
| 11:33.59 | roh | Elrond there are afaik 2 at all. really small number. first check of 'does it do anything at all' |
| 11:34.45 | Elrond | Even two. :-) And yes, I know, how hw devel works. I have that next door at work. ;-) |
| 11:35.04 | Elrond | pcf50633 to be precise. |
| 11:35.23 | roh | Elrond hehe.. then you know it takes ages only to manuf. a few prototypes, compared to a few revisions of code |
| 11:35.42 | SpeedEvil | roh: how firmly was the accelerometer in GTA02 picked? I noted on the mailing list that a PIC with I2C + the accelerometer in the Wii might actually be cheaper, as well as having several more bits of accuracy. Which enables some things. |
| 11:36.13 | SpeedEvil | As well as potentially having interesting things doable with the 'spare' A/Ds and GPIO pins |
| 11:36.32 | roh | SpeedEvil we will test what we have now (harald has said a few words about it i think) and see if its up to our expectations. |
| 11:37.01 | SpeedEvil | I hope it's not - the performance is so low - based on the datasheet - that it rules out interesting apps. |
| 11:37.06 | Boggibill | I just have a silly question... I just stumbled upon openmoko and found it quite interesting, and i was wondering what I can do to help out with this project? |
| 11:37.25 | roh | SpeedEvil its a fully digital component. atleast from the outside view. a/d is within the sensor |
| 11:37.34 | SpeedEvil | roh: yes - a 7 bit A/D |
| 11:38.11 | Elrond | Boggibill - Build software and fix bugs. There are plenty of them. ;-)) |
| 11:38.13 | SpeedEvil | roh: Raw sensors of this class support easily better than 11 bits analog. Maybe 10 with no trimming. |
| 11:38.15 | roh | SpeedEvil i know. lets try it first and then cry 'its shit' or 'praise the silicon manufacturer $FOO-BAR' ;) |
| 11:38.46 | SpeedEvil | There is no point IMO in trying a device that states that it's very bad on the datasheet. |
| 11:39.19 | SpeedEvil | The extra resolution enables other applications. |
| 11:39.33 | SpeedEvil | For example, fairly accurate dead reckoning when it's in a car-holder. |
| 11:39.39 | roh | SpeedEvil could be. but you also have to look out for mechanical parameters, lead time, and other specs of it. it would be great to have a lot of stuff. but some is just not produced yet at all or not even avail as samples |
| 11:39.49 | Elrond | Boggibill - Or if you are not a programmer, read the wiki and help people by answering questions / remove spam from the wiki / give it more structure, if it misses structure... |
| 11:40.06 | Boggibill | Elrond: yeah, i can do that :). is it possible for me to get a phone to test it on? |
| 11:40.25 | SpeedEvil | Sure. However, the PIC is widely available, as is the AD part. (and modestly cheaper for the two of them than the ST part) |
| 11:40.44 | roh | SpeedEvil pics are much too power hungry. sorry. |
| 11:40.46 | Elrond | Boggibill - Or slowly go through the bugs and see, if something could be done by a random hacker and try asking someone to try it. (I have a GTA01Bv03 next to me and can do tests to verify, that bugs are still valid for example) |
| 11:41.06 | roh | SpeedEvil besides that they take up a lot of pcb-space compared to other components |
| 11:41.15 | SpeedEvil | roh: Not actually at slow clocks. At 1Mhz, the total power is comparable to the integrated solution. |
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| 11:41.22 | SpeedEvil | 4*4 QFN |
| 11:41.36 | aloril | SpeedEvil: there are specs available for FOSS code for what you propose? (this is also limiting factor) |
| 11:41.52 | SpeedEvil | aloril: what do you mean? |
| 11:42.01 | roh | SpeedEvil i think since there are 2 of these 3-axis thingies which also can do an irq at 'clicks' or 'taps' will be nice. |
| 11:42.12 | roh | SpeedEvil 4x4 is _huge_ |
| 11:42.30 | SpeedEvil | roh: 2 3 axis of this sort basically can't do anything. |
| 11:42.35 | SpeedEvil | That 1 can't |
| 11:43.00 | aloril | SpeedEvil: I mean that GPL driver is completely possible? (it probably is I guess) |
| 11:43.01 | SpeedEvil | You have to _really_ shake the device hard in rotation to get any more than 1 bit of resolution unfortunately. |
| 11:43.10 | Elrond | Boggibill - Sorry. No hardware available to the big public now. You can emulate the phone using qemu though. |
| 11:43.12 | SpeedEvil | aloril: you mean of the GPS? |
| 11:43.15 | roh | SpeedEvil they can. they are mounted 45Â degree rotated to each other on different corners. you will see |
| 11:43.21 | Boggibill | Elrond: can I pm you? |
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| 11:43.37 | Elrond | Boggibill - Yep. |
| 11:43.40 | aloril | SpeedEvil: no, I mean what you propose accelerometer replacement |
| 11:43.44 | SpeedEvil | roh: Unfortunately, you are wrong. Consider that you can take the 3 outputs of the accellerometer, and make one vector. |
| 11:43.56 | SpeedEvil | roh: This vector can be trivially rotated. |
| 11:44.24 | roh | SpeedEvil thats why the 2 chips need a mechanical distance |
| 11:44.29 | SpeedEvil | roh: The outputs you get from two accellerometers are basically the differential accels due to the roll/pitch/yaw |
| 11:44.54 | SpeedEvil | Right. Now, run the numbers for the accelerations due to rotation. They are quite small. |
| 11:45.11 | SpeedEvil | I did the numbers for a 12 bit or so A/D on the AD part on the wiki |
| 11:45.55 | SpeedEvil | With a 7 bit - well, it's not really usable in a phone as it's unsafe to shake a phone that hard. |
| 11:46.30 | roh | SpeedEvil hey.. you can cry as you want. its not helping anybody. try to be constructive. |
| 11:46.38 | SpeedEvil | I am being constructive. |
| 11:46.57 | roh | SpeedEvil how HARD you have to shake something has nothing to do with the number of bits. |
| 11:47.05 | SpeedEvil | It does. |
| 11:47.09 | Elrond | It does. |
| 11:47.15 | aloril | SpeedEvil: if you are right, I guess they will see that in evaluating it (laforge seemed pretty unsure if this was good solution) |
| 11:47.17 | SpeedEvil | The accellerations due to roll/pitch/yaw are _small |
| 11:47.19 | Elrond | If there are too few bits, you can't measure the shaking. |
| 11:47.34 | SpeedEvil | On the order of 1-several milligee |
| 11:47.36 | roh | thats something totally related to the measuring range and the energy as well as the scalar in the sensor. |
| 11:47.53 | SpeedEvil | Measuring range can't be larger than the phone. |
| 11:47.55 | Elrond | No. |
| 11:48.08 | aloril | SpeedEvil: so I guess this could very well be one thing changed in next revision |
| 11:48.10 | Elrond | The range has to be set large, to get the base. |
| 11:48.15 | Elrond | You want to measure differences. |
| 11:48.19 | Elrond | ... that's where bits come in. |
| 11:48.24 | SpeedEvil | The gravity vector drops out as you're only interested in differential accels. |
| 11:49.01 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals has the numbers |
| 11:49.09 | roh | just read the datasheet and wait till we know how that stuff feels in the real world. yet all that is total speculation |
| 11:50.00 | SpeedEvil | It's unfortunately not speculation, it's the underlying physics. You don't need hardware or the phone for this. |
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| 11:50.09 | SpeedEvil | The datasheet states that it's 7 bits. |
| 11:50.36 | SpeedEvil | This means an accelleration error of 10 milligee. Or 10cm/s^2 |
| 11:50.39 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 11:51.01 | SpeedEvil | Err - not quite as the max accel is around that point. |
| 11:51.23 | aloril | question: is it linear? (I guess so, just verifying) |
| 11:51.29 | SpeedEvil | 3G or 2G/127 anyway. This is a _huge_ accelleration compared to the differentials you will get by waving the phone around. |
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| 11:51.49 | SpeedEvil | aloril: the parts that are under discussion are more or less linear. |
| 11:52.04 | SpeedEvil | They may need non-linearieties, and cross-axis sensitivities compensated out. |
| 11:53.09 | SpeedEvil | As actual numbers - an error of 10milligee gives you around 60 degrees of heading error in 1 second. |
| 11:53.26 | SpeedEvil | With a 10cm baseline |
| 11:53.44 | aloril | hmm.. dropped 1 object and moved second object: I could easily move it at same speed as dropped object |
| 11:54.17 | aloril | (moved object: mobile phone) |
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| 11:58.59 | SpeedEvil | aloril: ? |
| 12:00.08 | SpeedEvil | Oh - both of the proposed devices are quite enough for telling gross pointings and acceleration. |
| 12:00.11 | aloril | SpeedEvil: dropping object: basically going from 1G to 0G, moving so its negative G in relation to ground is trivial |
| 12:01.08 | SpeedEvil | Measuring the current accelleration vector I mean. |
| 12:01.15 | Elrond | Yep. The sensors will probably be good at detecting the main accelaration vector... but one would be enough for that, I guess. |
| 12:02.02 | aloril | well.. measuring car rotation is quite different from measuring user rotating phone |
| 12:02.21 | SpeedEvil | You don't actually need that for a phone strapped to the car. |
| 12:02.25 | aloril | even on top of table |
| 12:03.00 | SpeedEvil | See the start of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals |
| 12:03.28 | SpeedEvil | If you assume the car doesn't drift, and points in the direction it goes, you can get quite accurate. |
| 12:03.52 | aloril | well, I'm talking about moving phone by hand only, not about car moving or user moving ;-) |
| 12:03.55 | roh | SpeedEvil its a phone, no car |
| 12:04.19 | SpeedEvil | And if it's clamped into a car-holder, you have a known relationship between the phone and the car. |
| 12:04.25 | aloril | roh: and SpeedEvil wants to use it to complement GPS so car is relevant too |
| 12:05.23 | aloril | haven't checked math, but I think both of you have a point: it probably is not enough sensitive for some stuff, but it should be enough sensitive for other stuff |
| 12:05.47 | roh | aloril: i do not see that happen. meaning accel sensors which have so low noise, sensitivity, low power, small and not too expensive |
| 12:07.28 | roh | besides that, every modern car already has all the data he is missing.. thats why the navigationsystem in fat german cars (which is completely integrated) also usually works in tunnels |
| 12:07.51 | SpeedEvil | roh: Actual worked numbers of the part used in the Wii - which is slightly cheaper than the ST one - takes around a minute to move at 40MPH enough to move from a true heading of (say) north to a false heading of northnortheast. Over short periods - 10-20s, it's quite accurate. |
| 12:09.13 | SpeedEvil | (with the phone clamped in a car-holder) |
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| 12:11.07 | aloril | 5cm at 1G: 0.1s (easy to do for hand, just put object on top of hand and move hand downwards) |
| 12:12.28 | SpeedEvil | aloril: yes - the hand can trivially do this - I'm mainly talking of the ability of the phone to sense gentle twisting motions. Which is the only possible benefit of 2 accels. |
| 12:14.49 | aloril | 5cm at 0.01G takes 1s which is quite slow twist |
| 12:15.20 | aloril | hmm.. yeah, I guess one accelerometer at extreme end of phone would be enough to detect all basic twists by hand |
| 12:16.36 | aloril | signature unlocking: include accelerometer readings too |
| 12:16.37 | kiney_ | counter |
| 12:16.37 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 4 days 23:43:38 (4.989±4.0 days) (1457;227) |
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| 12:22.00 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. I may be an idiot. |
| 12:22.08 | aloril | actually its even better than my above numbers because its actually 2.5cm acceleration and then 2.5cm deacceleration(sp?), not just 5cm acceleration |
| 12:22.11 | SpeedEvil | I have no idea where I got the 7 bit figure. |
| 12:22.34 | SpeedEvil | I recall it being from a datasheet from a part number mentioned. |
| 12:22.51 | SpeedEvil | I can't find the appropriate place I found it. |
| 12:23.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro]] [[Main_page_-_recast]] |
| 12:23.46 | SpeedEvil | The error on the part linked from the wiki is 1 milligee. |
| 12:24.17 | roh | SpeedEvil hehe.. thats what i also am searching. it only gives me 'there are 3 registers, 8bit wide for the data' and that they say sensitivity is about 18 mg/digit or 72mg/digit depending if in 2g or in 8g range mode |
| 12:25.39 | SpeedEvil | Ah - we're looking at different datasheets then. |
| 12:25.47 | SpeedEvil | Taht's the 7 bit part I was talking of. |
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| 12:26.43 | SpeedEvil | As 4000mg (total range) divided by 18 = 222 |
| 12:26.57 | SpeedEvil | which is 7 bit range at +-1G levels |
| 12:27.14 | SpeedEvil | What's that part number, and where did you get it? |
| 12:28.19 | roh | SpeedEvil http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/neo1973-hardware/2007-June/000133.html .. and take the note on the end serious, please ;) |
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| 12:30.34 | aloril | http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12726.pdf ? |
| 12:31.00 | SpeedEvil | Certainly - however, IMO, pointing out that there are potential problems with component selection may shave off a revision. |
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| 12:32.13 | aloril | SpeedEvil: you mean instead of GTA02v03 it would be in GTA02v02 ? (nothing that can be done about GTA02v01 now, already done) |
| 12:32.56 | roh | aloril: nothing needs to be done as long as we have not completed testing the thing |
| 12:33.17 | roh | and since 'navigating cars' is not really on the specs at all... |
| 12:33.56 | aloril | it should be enough for all kinds of stuff you do with hands and that alone is useful thing |
| 12:34.37 | aloril | there is that usual example: rotate phone -> rotate screen |
| 12:34.48 | roh | aloril: yep. and besides.. it hase much more detail in 2g mode than in 8g. |
| 12:34.56 | roh | s/hase/has |
| 12:35.10 | aloril | another example (somebody else said it): if you drop phone it can scream (so you notice you dropped it for example) |
| 12:35.27 | roh | step-counter for joggers *duck* |
| 12:35.35 | aloril | yup, games, etc.. |
| 12:36.45 | SpeedEvil | roh: I was simply commenting that you get little to no use of it in dual accelerometer mode with an accel with 7 bits or so resolution. |
| 12:37.01 | aloril | in general why not use it for input in addition to touch screen? (at least to my eyes when I move/tap fingers to cell phone (not Neo1973) phone moves too, probably can be detected by this chip) |
| 12:37.15 | SpeedEvil | The 'big brother' LV part of the same one would. |
| 12:37.42 | SpeedEvil | Very small movements of the phone can be picked up by either chip. |
| 12:37.51 | roh | *sigh* .. all i wanted to say in the beginning of this discussion basically was: everything is fine or will be. some of you are just too impatient. |
| 12:37.55 | SpeedEvil | it can even pick up tapping on the phone. |
| 12:38.15 | roh | SpeedEvil the big brother of the lv takes about 80 times as much power -> no go |
| 12:38.20 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 12:38.27 | roh | tapping can even to the one we test |
| 12:38.37 | aloril | roh: being impatient is common here ;-) |
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| 12:38.41 | SpeedEvil | The PIC + AD solution that I was looking at uses around the same power. |
| 12:39.03 | roh | SpeedEvil the LIS302DL is about 1mw |
| 12:39.10 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 12:40.41 | roh | and i find thats a lot. we are fighting over microwatt and microampere currents over pull up/down resistors ;) we want to have runtime, guys |
| 12:41.16 | roh | if you need a superstable and exact (and as well expensive) sensor. put it into your car. thats what i2c/spi and a extra irq is for |
| 12:42.11 | aloril | roh: stupid question: so it takes 1mw all the time, not only when you measure? |
| 12:42.22 | SpeedEvil | You can actually get the power down lower - I hadn't looked at it in detail, but I was looking at shutting down the AD part most of the time. |
| 12:42.35 | SpeedEvil | And only having the PIC at low clock frequency on. |
| 12:43.09 | SpeedEvil | And it wakes up occasionally, then samples, then if needed sends something over I2C |
| 12:43.09 | roh | aloril: think so. you can switch it off and leave the vcc_io on i think so its completely off, just does not block the bus |
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| 12:44.03 | empty_mind | counter |
| 12:44.04 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 4 days 23:15:55 (4.969±4.0 days) (1458;228) |
| 12:44.06 | roh | aloril: switching it off inbetween measurements will modify the result if i read the dataheet right |
| 12:44.19 | empty_mind | someday the phone will arrive |
| 12:44.31 | roh | empty_mind not some day. quite soon. |
| 12:44.53 | aloril | empty_mind: see counter page, there are news about potential news ;-) |
| 12:45.30 | SpeedEvil | Plus - I was interested in possibly connecting the PIC to the mic, for extra fun. Wakeup on loud noise. Also more programmable G settings. |
| 12:45.40 | SpeedEvil | And at lower current too. Oh well. |
| 12:46.12 | empty_mind | any suggestion for gpled circuit emulation tool ? |
| 12:46.57 | aloril | roh: yeah it sounds quite soon, unless QA reveals serious problems |
| 12:46.58 | roh | empty_mind is there any? i only know about spice-integration into a lot of stuff, but thats not free, is it? |
| 12:47.28 | *** join/#openmoko __law__ (n=law@mail.stiftadmont.at) |
| 12:47.29 | roh | aloril: harald will do qa in person, so we can be shure he will find them if there are any |
| 12:47.33 | SpeedEvil | 18mG error - with a 10cm radius over 1s gives you 18cm/s velocity error - or 9cm movement, or 90 degrees out. |
| 12:47.54 | aloril | roh: right, but if he finds, then its not anymore "soon" :-( |
| 12:48.35 | roh | aloril: i'm quite confident. if we weren't the factory in china would not have built so many already |
| 12:48.52 | SpeedEvil | Still at 200ish? |
| 12:49.05 | empty_mind | roh, i dont know if there is any, thats what i am asking |
| 12:49.20 | roh | its just the final 'rip open every 10th box to be shure we don't send out shit' |
| 12:49.26 | aloril | it might be 500, just saying couple hundred in case there is bad yield I guess? |
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| 12:50.05 | roh | SpeedEvil: i will not tell exact numbers, but what i see as 'want one' and hear, i'll think we will have enough so everybody who wants one gets one in time |
| 12:50.20 | aloril | roh: so QA OK -> actual ordering could easily happen in a week? |
| 12:50.33 | roh | could be. dunno |
| 12:51.08 | aloril | it happened pretty fast for P0 I think? (day or few?) |
| 12:51.37 | aloril | of course this is different now that you must 'create' openmoko.com too (unless everything ready at that front) |
| 12:51.39 | roh | we do not want to say '$this day will be it' without knowing for shure it will. its just too hard to dissapoint people |
| 12:51.56 | aloril | roh: agree here |
| 12:52.24 | roh | aloril: p0 was built in taiwan afaik, not the regular mass-production facility we will use now |
| 12:52.59 | roh | aloril: the .com is underway. when its there you will know(tm) ;) |
| 12:53.21 | aloril | withing 15minutes everybody on this channel knows ;-) |
| 12:54.21 | aloril | (assuming I haven't blundered somewhere) |
| 12:54.56 | SpeedEvil | roh: So is this the facility that if all goes well, will be doing the rest? |
| 12:55.52 | roh | SpeedEvil it is the facility which will do the complete production for mp |
| 12:56.06 | SpeedEvil | :) Have the LCD supply problems resolved? |
| 12:56.14 | SpeedEvil | (fine if you can't say...) |
| 12:56.14 | roh | think so |
| 12:56.18 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 12:56.19 | roh | dunno, really |
| 12:56.55 | aloril | so they can produce thousands easily as needed (assuming no parts supply problems) |
| 12:57.22 | roh | yes. |
| 12:59.41 | roh | its just the usual process, nothing too unusual. just in the standard-business you would never get such informations, thats why it looked like problems so often, or when we had to slip it a bit |
| 13:00.05 | aloril | that's extra week or 2 I guess? |
| 13:00.46 | SpeedEvil | Don't say things like that. It'll attract elephants to run over the to-be-shipped boxes or something. |
| 13:01.38 | aloril | SpeedEvil: hehe, I meant that demand will be bigger than current supply, so some will need to wait extra week or 2 |
| 13:02.05 | roh | but i guess the only way is to be truthfull to you guys and hope you can understand if we cannot tell some things, either because of we do not know at that time or must not because of other reasons. |
| 13:02.37 | aloril | roh: sure, predicting future is *HARD* ;-) |
| 13:03.12 | roh | aloril: i know of no final date for p1. and i don't want to. final dates just generate pressure and grief if slipped, and it also looks stupid if you can do it faster. i find release when done most economic and fair for all partys |
| 13:03.37 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@halls-129-31-82-59.hor.ic.ac.uk) |
| 13:03.56 | aloril | roh: agree strongly |
| 13:04.09 | mjr | yes, fair to us slaves of Sean, the capitalist swine |
| 13:04.32 | aloril | roh: if you define date, then you would need to put extra 'buffer' |
| 13:04.56 | roh | aloril: i do not need to predict the future, we need to build it. thats why i work for openmoko, not because of the payment, its because i am confident to be able to contribute to a real opensource project as it should be. i'm a bit fanatic when it comes to that, so be assured we wanna do it right. |
| 13:05.20 | *** join/#openmoko dep (i=dep@host249-53-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:06.06 | roh | mjr i know of no capitalist which would work that hard for a project which is about something so fair to the customers. |
| 13:06.51 | aloril | counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) |
| 13:06.51 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) |
| 13:07.39 | mjr | roh, yeah I'm just referring to the asshole on the community list |
| 13:07.44 | roh | aloril: and how should we survive you guys waiting if we would complete predating the 'safety buffer'? nooo. just no dates for me anymore. its enough pressure seeing you weep everyday for hardware. :) |
| 13:07.49 | mjr | a clueless one, at that |
| 13:08.26 | roh | mjr there are a few thousand people on the ml. there are always some strange people who didn't get the idea and our reasons for doing it the way we do |
| 13:08.50 | mjr | certainly |
| 13:09.18 | mjr | just don't let the likes of them bring you down |
| 13:09.29 | SpeedEvil | Having said that - it's certainly a money-making proposition for FIC if it works. |
| 13:09.36 | roh | there is a lot of senseless talk on some lists, but even there sometimes is a good idea. thats why i still read them and keep ignoring the irrealistic stuff only as far as needed. |
| 13:09.38 | SpeedEvil | Which is a good thing. |
| 13:09.45 | mjr | SpeedEvil, obviously it is. And yes, it's a good thing. |
| 13:10.31 | SpeedEvil | I wish e-ink was cheap and readily available. |
| 13:10.41 | mjr | it's just funny how some think it's more okay to benefit a hostile or indifferent company than a co-operative one... |
| 13:10.48 | roh | SpeedEvil thats the businesscase, and the only valid one in a gpl-world in my eyes (besides services) build hardware, and sell it. give out the real source for the thing. |
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| 13:11.19 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 13:11.21 | aloril | roh: exactly, no sense for buffers in this project (unlike for iPhone ;-) |
| 13:11.21 | DukeOfURL | roh: agree, look at Digium |
| 13:11.56 | roh | DukeOfURL ack, ack. thats a good example how to keep expert hackers away from you ;) |
| 13:12.55 | roh | aloril: i am still wondering myself over all the comparisons beeing done. we are something completely different, so... it would not be fair for the iphone *duck* |
| 13:13.16 | aloril | hehe |
| 13:15.05 | roh | how good its opensource and the hw comes from china *g* |
| 13:15.20 | *** part/#openmoko jsmanrique (n=jsmanriq@cme-212-89-8-169.telecable.es) |
| 13:16.52 | roh | (the mp facility stands there) |
| 13:19.44 | roh | i just hope i have answered your questions.. ... and if you hear some strange rumours, just ask before spreading ;) |
| 13:20.33 | mjr | well, individuals can pretty much play the usual see no evil hear no evil, but it would be sucky if FIC couldn't ship some nifty feature by default because of patents |
| 13:20.43 | aloril | roh: I'm happy to just hear about stuff that has happened or is happening (like lafore: GTA01Bv4 phones at China, GTA02 prototype, mickeyl: doing QA now): no need to try to predict future ;-) |
| 13:21.34 | aloril | roh: I have rumors/guesses at counter page, but hopefully I have correctly marked all of them so |
| 13:22.03 | roh | aloril: yeah. everybody is busy with something. there is progress and yeah. we want to answer you, just do not have unlimited time. |
| 13:22.54 | roh | and since there are a lot geeks involved the most productive stragegy is chosen often, work, don't chat |
| 13:23.11 | aloril | roh: sorry, I have used way too much of your time today :-( |
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| 13:25.20 | nnpiggy | ++roh |
| 13:25.23 | roh | n.p. thats what my job is. keeping communications warm between all developers, internal ones as the ones in the community. |
| 13:26.05 | nnpiggy | I'm sad about the fact that I don't have GPS to play with--I'm about to head off for a BioForay where I really wanted to try it out in the field... |
| 13:27.26 | roh | BioForay ? |
| 13:27.46 | mjr | I'm kinda itching for GPS too, but no use buying another device for that at this point |
| 13:29.07 | aloril | (hopefully counter page can reduce need to answer questions for newbies though) |
| 13:29.59 | DukeOfURL | roh: is your factory in Shenzen? |
| 13:30.19 | roh | DukeOfURL i'm not shure, but i think so |
| 13:30.31 | roh | i wasn't there yet. just in taipeh |
| 13:30.41 | DukeOfURL | my brother is there |
| 13:30.50 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:31.48 | roh | its really nice and the people are really friendly... but yet you feel like a analphabeth because of all the chinese signs :) |
| 13:32.09 | roh | atleast for me as a german |
| 13:33.15 | roh | DukeOfURL visit your brother sometime if you get the possibility, its worth it. |
| 13:33.38 | DukeOfURL | roh: he works for Foxcon and really likes it |
| 13:33.50 | roh | DukeOfURL nice |
| 13:33.54 | DukeOfURL | He's an American who is quite happy in China |
| 13:35.08 | roh | i'm shure he is.. i also had a smile on my face the whole day. just the social climate is very warm. even to westerners like me |
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| 13:40.37 | tr1 | http://rene.rebe.name/photos/?p=/Computex/2007/&index=45 |
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| 13:44.02 | aloril | tr1: can I link to http://rene.rebe.name/photos/?p=/Computex/2007/img_2208.jpg from [[Buying_Interest_List]] page? |
| 13:45.29 | hrw | tr1: you lack white with red border one |
| 13:45.54 | tr1 | (15:45:43) rxr: yes, link to my blog in which way you want |
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| 13:51.08 | tr1 | (15:50:11) rxr: but please link to them directly |
| 13:51.08 | tr1 | (15:50:15) rxr: and not copy the images, thanks .-) |
| 13:52.24 | aloril | tr1: you say rxr, but I assume you mean me? in that case thanks! ( going to use link I gave above ) |
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| 13:55.27 | aloril | duh, you quoted another person and relayed message ;-) |
| 13:56.12 | tr1 | yes - right sorry :-) |
| 13:57.10 | aloril | added: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List |
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| 14:17.00 | Readon | what bootloader does openmoko use now? |
| 14:17.30 | SpeedEvil | u-boot |
| 14:17.39 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader |
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| 14:18.59 | Readon | i had seen uboot was compiled, but not now. |
| 14:21.33 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 14:23.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Application_Manager]] [[Manually_using_GSM]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[User:Lankester]] |
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| 14:30.38 | Readon | have the u-boot been modified for bad block? |
| 14:31.01 | roh | yes |
| 14:31.43 | sxpert-work | Readon: the u-boot is somewhere between the coasts of UK and france |
| 14:32.28 | florian | sxpert-work: between taiwan and germany rather ;) |
| 14:32.41 | sxpert-work | hehe |
| 14:39.42 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03njp * r2240 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-dialer.c: Fixed typo, which caused the 'history' button to remain unset |
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| 14:40.41 | Sup3rkiddo | Bish, go get it openmoko is freely available...you just need the mokomakefile :D |
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| 14:42.26 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 14:43.53 | sxpert-work | Sup3rkiddo: that is, if the stars are properly aligned for all the stuff to compile... |
| 14:44.34 | Sup3rkiddo | sxpert-work, yeah, heard its been a bad time for pisces to do so |
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| 14:51.50 | Vegar | counter |
| 14:51.50 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 4 days 21:08:09 (4.881±4.0 days) (1459;229) |
| 14:52.23 | mickey_fic | hmmm |
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| 14:58.39 | Readon | what about others? |
| 14:59.24 | hrw | ? |
| 15:00.01 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 15:00.03 | Stephmw | is it degenerating again? |
| 15:00.07 | SpeedEvil | there are very silly people on there. |
| 15:00.16 | hrw | mickey_fic: concentrate on work and unsub community ML |
| 15:00.28 | Sup3rkiddo | +1 |
| 15:00.37 | Stephmw | +2 |
| 15:00.41 | SpeedEvil | Or just use the handy 'ignore thread' feature. |
| 15:01.26 | mickey_fic | hrw: no kidding, i should. it's just disappointing. we're working our ass off here to get that company restructuration done and i need to read that we work on changing specs closed |
| 15:03.11 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-221-90.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 15:03.26 | hrw | mickey_fic: people lack phones to test and talk about them so they talk about anything |
| 15:04.04 | mickey_fic | i know i know |
| 15:04.07 | roh | hrw: but then that means that the 150 phones out there need to be shown around more |
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| 15:04.52 | roh | so.. if anybody in berlin for example wants to touch one or hack on it for a day: just come by. and i think there are more people out there who wouln't mind giving the same offer |
| 15:05.25 | hrw | I can show Poky on neo if someone want (in Poznań, Poland) |
| 15:05.32 | koen | "You are all going to become slaves of capitalists" |
| 15:06.08 | roh | koen hey.. that guy made my day |
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| 15:06.50 | Sup3rkiddo | anyone having an neo from India... |
| 15:06.51 | Sup3rkiddo | ? |
| 15:07.00 | Sup3rkiddo | *a neo |
| 15:07.44 | hrw | bye |
| 15:08.04 | alphaone | same goes for region Braunschweig |
| 15:08.18 | alphaone | (regarding the touching of phones :-) |
| 15:09.07 | Sup3rkiddo | well like Calvin's dad says, anticipation of things makes it worthwhile when you get it :D |
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| 15:09.53 | orospakr | Sup3rkiddo: it build character. ;) |
| 15:09.59 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 15:10.01 | orospakr | s/build/builds/ |
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| 15:15.19 | C7 | hi, is there someone interested in giving a talk at the openexpo in zürich 19./20. of september? harald? mickey? http://www.openexpo.ch/ |
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| 15:18.03 | C7 | i know youre all busy atm .. but call for paricipation ends 15th (this friday) |
| 15:18.06 | mickey_fic | C7: i know the deadline for proposals is 15th, however I'm in Taiwan until 23th and may have a hard time planning |
| 15:18.28 | mickey_fic | C7: i may call my wife today and talk to her (left my calendar in FFM) |
| 15:18.35 | C7 | :) |
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| 15:20.27 | mickey_fic | C7: did we meet in Berlin or wasn't that you? |
| 15:21.20 | C7 | mickey_fic: yes that was me |
| 15:21.26 | mickey_fic | cool |
| 15:23.07 | pjz | mickey_fic: what's with the restructuring? |
| 15:23.59 | C7 | mickey_fic: and mathias stürmer who is the guy behind openexpo |
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| 15:24.14 | Bish | .. hm booting om takes forever |
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| 15:25.47 | C7 | sorry one of the guys |
| 15:27.38 | mickey_fic | pjz: can't talk about that. just that OpenMoko will get more ressources very soon |
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| 15:30.10 | lokulin | ? |
| 15:30.11 | aloril | lokulin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 15:30.23 | lokulin | quit |
| 15:30.41 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 15:31.48 | aloril | looks almost like lokulin new about this trigger ;-) |
| 15:32.50 | aloril | and I think Neo1973 was initially meant for wince too |
| 15:33.00 | alphaone | ROTFL! |
| 15:33.48 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005787.html "It was originally designed for a completely different usage scenario. |
| 15:34.30 | alphaone | Just got an SMS asking me where to get the Neo...turns out the person watched the movie I made of the Neo1973 performing a phone call |
| 15:34.57 | *** join/#openmoko univac (n=univac@148.81.191.193) |
| 15:35.28 | aloril | hehe |
| 15:36.18 | Stephmw | alphaone: moral of the story... don't use your real number :) |
| 15:36.30 | Sup3rkiddo | alphaone, have you..ahem...uploaded the movie somewhere? |
| 15:36.34 | stefan_schmidt | Stephmw: He was in hurry. :) |
| 15:37.03 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: To the wiki, but some other uploaded it to youtoube |
| 15:37.12 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, ping...turns out all pythonic stuff arent getting installed... |
| 15:37.14 | Sup3rkiddo | cool |
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| 15:37.58 | mickey_fic | alphaone: hehe, fun |
| 15:38.03 | alphaone | Stephmw: Yeah, seems that way. :-) |
| 15:39.35 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: btw, I had no time for your recipe yesterday. Sorry. Hopefully have a look tonight |
| 15:39.59 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, np, take your time...i will see from my side as well |
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| 15:47.00 | PBeck | hi |
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| 15:50.53 | balrog-kun | does the kernel lock-up for someone other than me when the wake up from suspend is triggered by unplugging USB? |
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| 16:07.43 | TRIsoft | gtg cu |
| 16:08.15 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, ping, |
| 16:08.31 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: pong |
| 16:09.00 | sixfeet | tennis |
| 16:09.10 | empty_mind | stefan_schmidt, double fault |
| 16:10.05 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, sorry for the ping, but this thing suddenly struck me...we dont add python to task-openmoko.bb, but it got installed in the final build..all i had to do was add the package name to local.conf... |
| 16:10.45 | Sup3rkiddo | so if i am not mistaken, can it be something else? |
| 16:13.36 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: I fear I can't follow you. We don't have python in our default devel-image, have we? And waht did you add to your local.conf? |
| 16:14.28 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, i have "python" and my app-name in the DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS |
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| 16:14.57 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, i am able to get the python interpreter..i just copied over the recipes and put them in oe/packages |
| 16:15.19 | Sup3rkiddo | and of course make openmoko-devel-image handled the rest |
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| 16:17.18 | Sup3rkiddo | my point is, i didnt have to add python to task-openmoko.bb. but she got installed successfully in the build |
| 16:17.24 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: And the effect is what? python and your app are now in the default devel-image? |
| 16:17.50 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, only python is..not my app..any app depending on python for that matter |
| 16:18.34 | Sup3rkiddo | i tried installing python-pygoogle which is already present in the OE tree as well..but it isnt getting installed either |
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| 16:19.20 | stefan_schmidt | Sup3rkiddo: hmm, ok. I need to test this later. No time atm |
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| 16:19.34 | Sup3rkiddo | stefan_schmidt, sure.....thanks |
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| 16:23.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] [[User:RafaelCarreras]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
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| 16:53.40 | aloril | (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: Call for Participation http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/06/call-for-participation.html |
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| 17:07.46 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2241 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/gnokiigsm/at-emulator.c: Use modem identification strings from GTA01Bv4. |
| 17:09.24 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2242 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Add a primitive bluetooth subsystem (there are no bluetooth slaves yet, only an HCI). |
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| 17:11.08 | CIA-24 | openmoko: 03andrew * r2243 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (bt-hci.c bt.h usb-bt.c): Add new files forgotten from last commit. |
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| 17:53.09 | Elrond | Is it me, or has the spam on the wiki gotten less? |
| 17:53.14 | mickey_fic | ya |
| 17:53.21 | mickey_fic | Laf0rge installed something |
| 17:53.24 | Elrond | Hi mickey_fic btw! :) |
| 17:53.33 | mickey_fic | hi |
| 17:53.46 | Elrond | I hope that "something" does not stop useful work. :) |
| 17:55.43 | mickey_fic | i don't think so |
| 17:55.48 | mickey_fic | just some account checks i think |
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| 17:59.11 | Elrond | We'll see. I'll surely file a bug, if something is b0rked now. ;o) |
| 17:59.17 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89 (n=ewanm89@host86-152-203-168.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 17:59.21 | Elrond | But at least it looks way better now. :) |
| 18:03.32 | high-rez | counter |
| 18:03.32 | aloril | http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 4 days 17:56:27 (4.748±4.0 days) (1460;229) |
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| 18:23.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/ru]] [[User:Nes]] [[Translation]] |
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| 19:11.28 | noidd | clear |
| 19:14.55 | balrog-kun | Permission denied |
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| 20:24.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Development_resources]] |
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| 20:39.15 | Elrond | Does openmoko-messages work for anyone? |
| 20:42.10 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:47.33 | *** join/#openmoko Skull_Death (i=FullT@201.89.1.77) |
| 20:47.39 | Skull_Death | hey guys 01,08:04) |
| 20:47.46 | xkr47 | cute |
| 20:48.01 | Skull_Death | any release date? |
| 20:48.02 | aloril | Skull_Death: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 20:48.24 | hrw | Elrond: define works |
| 20:48.40 | hrw | Elrond: runs? allow to send sms? allow to read sms? |
| 20:48.58 | Elrond | starts. |
| 20:48.59 | Skull_Death | omfg |
| 20:49.02 | Skull_Death | this is fuckin' awesome |
| 20:49.14 | hrw | Elrond: I lack up to date build now |
| 20:49.28 | Elrond | When I start it from ssh (set DISPLAY and DBUS-thingy appropiately), I get a segv. |
| 20:49.37 | Skull_Death | any developer here? |
| 20:49.38 | Elrond | hrw - My rootfs is old too. |
| 20:49.49 | Elrond | Skull_Death - developer of what? |
| 20:49.51 | Elrond | ... for what? |
| 20:49.54 | Elrond | ... for what need? |
| 20:49.58 | Skull_Death | i mean |
| 20:50.03 | Skull_Death | official... |
| 20:50.21 | Skull_Death | any official dev here? |
| 20:50.42 | hrw | I am official BitBake developer, official OpenEmbedded developer |
| 20:50.58 | hrw | also Poky official developer and few other things will be possible to find too |
| 20:50.59 | hrw | :D |
| 20:51.03 | Stephmw | Skull_Death: hang on there, you can't just call them out, ou have to coax them out with tasty treats |
| 20:51.40 | Stephmw | except for hrw who'll roll over at the mention of something techie |
| 20:52.14 | Elrond | He's hopefully not going to ask for official support for european electrons? ;o)) |
| 20:52.32 | Elrond | (*remembers this official bla thing on community*) |
| 20:52.34 | Skull_Death | i'm not european x) |
| 20:53.26 | Elrond | Skull_Death - Why don't you just ask? |
| 20:53.35 | Skull_Death | i'm just asking |
| 20:53.48 | Skull_Death | where r them |
| 20:53.53 | Skull_Death | u guys looks like stupid kids |
| 20:54.13 | hrw | Skull_Death: so do you |
| 20:54.14 | Elrond | What are you intending in here? |
| 20:54.28 | Skull_Death | i'll not start a discussion |
| 20:54.45 | ynezz | nice |
| 20:54.46 | Skull_Death | i discovered it today.. i'm excited ok? |
| 20:55.00 | Elrond | Skull_Death - Ahhh. |
| 20:55.31 | Elrond | Skull_Death - The super-uber-official people are busy working. |
| 20:55.39 | Skull_Death | ok |
| 20:55.41 | Skull_Death | then just say it |
| 20:55.44 | Skull_Death | i was just asking |
| 20:55.49 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: nah, I'm just tired. ;) |
| 20:57.02 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: And .tw is sleeping as it is 5am there |
| 20:57.04 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - You're not on the super-uber-official list at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Meet_the_Core_Team anyway ;o)))) |
| 20:57.20 | hrw | Warning: No merge candidate found because value of config option "branch.master.merge" does not match any remote branch fetched. |
| 20:57.26 | hrw | I love that git message |
| 20:57.36 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: damn, that means I had to add myself. ;) |
| 20:57.41 | hrw | it give so good information |
| 20:58.11 | Stephmw | stefan_schmidt: I heard everyone in .tw works 26 hours a day, shouldn't they still be at it? |
| 20:58.16 | Skull_Death | does u guys know how can i join it? i want to be part of the translation |
| 20:59.06 | stefan_schmidt | Stephmw: hmm, good point |
| 20:59.09 | Elrond | Skull_Death - Check http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation_HOWTO |
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| 21:00.27 | Skull_Death | nice nice nice |
| 21:01.25 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - *asking someone super-uber-official* (Looking at <URL:http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005787.html>) So for what usage scenario was the GTA01 originally designed? ;-) |
| 21:02.42 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: Just another wince smartphone IIRC. But the came OpenMoko and kicked them away. |
| 21:03.31 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X1d26.x.pppool.de) |
| 21:03.53 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - Hmm, "usage scenario" sounds more like "for phone", "for geeks", or so. not like "what OS is running on it". |
| 21:04.46 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: I just know about the other software not the usage sorry. |
| 21:06.39 | Elrond | stefan_schmidt - <making fun> So you're not as super-uber-official, it seems. ;o))) </making fun> :-) |
| 21:06.56 | Elrond | (Sorry, couldn't resist) |
| 21:07.13 | Skull_Death | i'm in |
| 21:07.15 | Skull_Death | 01,08:04D |
| 21:07.31 | stefan_schmidt | Elrond: That reduces it to Sean it seems. Not even Mickey and Harald know it it seems. |
| 21:07.42 | stefan_schmidt | Anyway off to bed. Night guys |
| 21:07.52 | guaqua | cya, stefan |
| 21:08.38 | Elrond | Good night stefan_schmidt, sleep well. :-) |
| 21:08.50 | hrw | Skull_Death: colors and blinking on irc was popular 10 years ago |
| 21:09.43 | Elrond | Huh, really... colors... *disabling colors again* |
| 21:10.50 | _llll_ | someone with ops might want to set the appropriate channel mode to block colors (+c i believe) |
| 21:11.46 | Skull_Death | hrw this is internet |
| 21:11.56 | Skull_Death | things never go unpopular |
| 21:12.21 | Elrond | Okay... then: "color is unpopular in this channel" ;-) |
| 21:12.48 | Skull_Death | i saw no rules |
| 21:12.50 | Skull_Death | 01,08:04) |
| 21:15.31 | Skull_Death | ppl, i don't want fights |
| 21:15.34 | guaqua | unless you stop using them you will be unpopular here aswell |
| 21:16.53 | *** part/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A35C6C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:17.28 | hrw | Skull_Death: and you are also the one which use graphical emoticons in mails and IM chats? |
| 21:18.02 | Elrond | hrw - BTW: Does the gsm modem work in anyway without a sim? |
| 21:18.09 | hrw | did not tried |
| 21:18.17 | hrw | should works rather |
| 21:18.29 | Elrond | hrw - Both your Neos have sims? |
| 21:20.39 | Elrond | Ahh, it's there. :-) |
| 21:20.56 | hrw | both |
| 21:21.17 | hrw | Elrond: both prepaid ones from misc networks |
| 21:22.09 | Elrond | :-) |
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| 21:23.19 | Elrond | Okay... it seems recommended to start gsmd once and stop it. :-) |
| 21:23.29 | Elrond | (I have disabled gsmd at boot time) |
| 21:30.19 | hrw | openmoko building reminds me why I do not want to look at bitbake 1.6 |
| 21:37.34 | Elrond | hrw ;-) |
| 21:37.43 | Elrond | Which reminds me to build pygtk for pavelm. |
| 21:41.38 | hrw | ah pavelm.. |
| 21:43.29 | Elrond | Let me know, how openmoko-messages works.. |
| 21:43.38 | *** part/#openmoko noesc (n=noesc@cpe-76-172-92-85.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 21:51.30 | hrw | Elrond: segfault |
| 21:52.21 | Elrond | (openmoko-messages:1144): Gtk-WARNING **: gtk_scrolled_window_add(): cannot add non scrollable widget use gtk_scrolled_window_add_with_viewport() instead |
| 21:52.25 | Elrond | Segmentation fault |
| 21:52.27 | Elrond | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:52.28 | Elrond | That's, what I get. |
| 21:52.37 | hrw | yes |
| 21:52.58 | Elrond | Okay. I'll put the -dbg on the phone and see, if I can find out, what's going on. |
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| 22:00.15 | Elrond | yuck. gtk+-dbg is large. |
| 22:01.25 | hrw | contacts app has useless import/export menu entries |
| 22:02.04 | Elrond | Are you surprised? ;-) |
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| 22:03.26 | hrw | it depends |
| 22:03.55 | hrw | I know that many apps are not finished or are just 'running mockups; |
| 22:04.58 | Elrond | Yeah. |
| 22:05.03 | Elrond | Or non-running. |
| 22:05.10 | Elrond | ... gdb's BT looks strange. |
| 22:05.20 | guaqua | one thing that would definitely get a lot of apps started would be ready scripting language bindings |
| 22:05.30 | *** join/#openmoko lartza (n=lartza@IP-62-216-127-53.telemail.fi) |
| 22:05.38 | guaqua | i know they might be slow as hell and unusable, but there would at least be something |
| 22:05.45 | Elrond | guaqua - My box builds pygtk just now. |
| 22:06.23 | guaqua | and a lot of ui stuff could be solved before implementing the software in c |
| 22:06.56 | Elrond | #0 gtk_hbox_size_request |
| 22:07.04 | Elrond | #1 0x40034940 in moko_tree_view_size_request |
| 22:07.12 | Elrond | #2 0x40b2d01c in g_cclosure_marshal_VOID__BOXED |
| 22:07.34 | Elrond | There's no reason, why a marshalling function should call moko_tree_view_size_request |
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| 22:24.34 | guaqua | what would be the preferred way to start trying out alternative input methods? |
| 22:24.40 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Skull_Death]] [[Wishlist:Expansion_Back]] [[Translation]] |
| 22:24.59 | guaqua | should for example cairo be used for drawing or how? |
| 22:30.15 | Elrond | guaqua - I think, for the first try, everything is allowed. :-) |
| 22:30.40 | Elrond | guaqua - Just try to be a little generic enough to be able to fixup later. :) |
| 22:31.11 | guaqua | i'm going to very generic since i'm also learning cairo in the process |
| 22:31.17 | guaqua | and gui programming in general :) |
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| 22:32.41 | cworth | guaqua: Well, we'll gladly answer any cairo questions you've got here. :-) |
| 22:32.49 | cworth | (Or, over in #cairo) |
| 22:33.39 | guaqua | i'll have to get started first...better step on the mines and actually get to know the turf, documentation and all before occupying others :) |
| 22:33.45 | cworth | guaqua: I'll look forward to seeing some cairo-rendered input methods, (I haven't written a custom input method for a handheld since before we made cairo). |
| 22:37.39 | guaqua | off to sleep now. more tomorrow :) |
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| 23:11.29 | Elrond | Okay... openmoko-messages leaves some b0rked GList in a hbox. I have no idea, how one can do someting that strange. |
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