irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070310

`00:00.11`	`lincman`	`i guess pretty much of it right now is just poking around in it`
`00:01.51`	`aevin`	`i haven't seen such a detailed list over P0 devs and their respective area of focus.`
`00:02.32`	`lincman`	`I guess not all of the core systems are working totally yet`
`00:02.40`	`Elrond`	`lincman - hang out on irc and watch them, or watch the MLs. ;)`
`00:02.49`	`peepsalot`	`hey wansti, you ever use jokosher?`
`00:03.15`	`peepsalot`	`haven't tried it yet, just curious if it's any good for composing`
`00:03.25`	`lincman`	`aevin, do you have anything special that you are going to focus on?`
`00:04.26`	`CoreDump\|home`	`is anyone here using a fresh rootfs created via MokoMakeFile or an OM "from-scratch" build (ie: not from .dev)`
`00:04.32`	`CoreDump\|home`	`?`
`00:04.58`	`*** join/#openmoko nirz (n=nir@bzq-88-152-211-233.red.bezeqint.net)`
`00:05.04`	`wansti`	`peepsalot: i tried it... it looked great, but it kept crashing, so it wasn't really useful`
`00:05.23`	`wansti`	`but i'll give it a shot again when they fixed it :-)`
`00:06.57`	`SuN`	`The Jokosher devs are idiots for not using Jack.`
`00:07.01`	`SuN`	`But it looks nice.`
`00:07.35`	`peepsalot`	`SuN, what is Jack?`
`00:07.54`	`*** part/#openmoko nirz (n=nir@bzq-88-152-211-233.red.bezeqint.net)`
`00:08.21`	`SuN`	`Jack is a low-latency audio server that supports routing of devices and plugins pretty much transparently.`
`00:09.39`	`SuN`	`There are tons of apps written to connect to jack, pretty much any serious audio app supports it.`
`00:10.13`	`SuN`	`Now, if you want to run your sound through say, an equalizer or a reverb, you can't use Jokosher until they implement it.`
`00:10.34`	`SuN`	`And if they had supported Jack from the beginning, there would be no need to implement it in the first place.`
`00:12.42`	`*** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`00:13.30`	`*** join/#openmoko quitte_ (n=quitte@stgt-d9bea119.pool.mediaWays.net)`
`00:14.53`	`wansti`	`http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/openmoko_startup_test.ogg`
`00:14.59`	`wansti`	`something along those lines?`
`00:16.28`	`SuN`	`Nice, but some more dynamics would be nice.`
`00:16.52`	`SuN`	`An amplitude or pitch synth envelope or something.`
`00:17.12`	`wansti`	`sure`
`00:17.32`	`wansti`	`this is just to give you a general idea`
`00:17.36`	`SuN`	`Maybe combined with a resonance filter to make it a bit more exciting.`
`00:17.44`	`SuN`	`(envelope as well)`
`00:20.28`	`peepsalot`	`pretty good wansti`
`00:21.40`	`zecke`	`finall`
`00:22.55`	`wansti`	`a matching error sound would be something like http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/openmoko_error.ogg`
`00:24.27`	`peepsalot`	`error sounds should be < 1s IMO`
`00:24.55`	`wansti`	`hm, good point`
`00:26.39`	`wansti`	`i'll play around with it some more... tomorrow`
`00:26.50`	`wansti`	`good night you guys`
`00:26.54`	`balrog-kun`	`even shorter imho`
`00:27.02`	`peepsalot`	`g'night`
`00:27.11`	`alphaone`	`good night wansti`
`00:27.25`	`*** part/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de)`
`00:30.34`	`*** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@141.60.168.3)`
`00:31.02`	`*** join/#openmoko konrad__ (n=konrad@71-35-132-124.tukw.qwest.net)`
`00:38.18`	`lincman`	`does anybody know what the special features to be added to the phone will be?`
`00:38.37`	`SpeedEvil`	`The consensus is that it is likely to be wifi.`
`00:38.48`	`peepsalot`	`v8 engine`
`00:40.14`	`Elrond`	`nmr tomograph. ;)`
`00:40.28`	`lincman`	`over a camera?`
`00:40.29`	`aloril`	`There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ`
`00:41.50`	`lincman`	`I find it odd that they would not put a cam in a phone of this calibur`
`00:42.10`	`SpeedEvil`	`calibre`
`00:42.10`	`lincman`	`well who knows maybe they will add both`
`00:42.42`	`lincman`	`guess we will have to wait`
`00:43.18`	`mjr`	`(actually, Sean has said on-list that they're looking into wifi, but there's no promises on delivery models/dates)`
`00:44.06`	`mjr`	`(with cameras, at least some models might also connect without a powered hub, seeing as they have their own power source, but this would be non-standard and therefore probably vary per camera)`
`00:44.19`	`mjr`	`(/model)`
`00:44.34`	`mjr`	`sleep now`
`00:44.41`	`*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)`
`00:45.09`	`peepsalot`	`bet it wouldn't be too hard to make a special USB cable with built in battery power`
`00:45.13`	`Elrond`	sleep: invalid time interval `now'
`00:45.14`	`Elrond`	Try `sleep --help' for more information.
`00:45.16`	`Elrond`	`;o)`
`00:46.35`	`mjr`	`peepsalot, well, there are build instructions for power injector boxes on-line, mainly for the nokia 770 which has a similar port`
`00:46.46`	`mjr`	`not quite cables, but I suppose one could miniatyrize somewhat`
`00:47.27`	`mjr`	`(turned out "now" was an alias for "after I get good and ready for bed")`
`00:49.33`	`aevin`	`lincman: i think it's smart of FIC not to load the first OM phone heavy of hardware gadgetes, as it will be a medium tech'ed phone acting as a relatively cheap developer kit. they need as many developers as possible to participate to get the OM distro up and running. then they can expand gradually with more features in later versions.`
`00:50.30`	`lincman`	`I guess one has to ask which would be more popular in the general arena`
`00:50.50`	`lincman`	`because once people start seeing these they are gonna want one`
`00:51.20`	`mjr`	`frankly, I don't see either wifi or a camera being such a "killer app" for phones for regular people`
`00:51.38`	`SpeedEvil`	`I can see the camera, for some people.`
`00:51.50`	`lincman`	`so maybe the cam is the better choice if there has to be one if you want mainstream purchases`
`00:51.53`	`SpeedEvil`	`However, it's not so much wifi, or the camera, but what apps they enbable.`
`00:52.02`	`mjr`	`most people with camera phones simply have it because the nice phone they happened to buy has it`
`00:52.03`	`lincman`	`the wifi is gonna be for us geeks`
`00:52.49`	`SuN`	`Don't underestimate people's desires to take pictures, seriously.`
`00:52.51`	`SpeedEvil`	`And the fun applications we enable.`
`00:53.05`	`SuN`	`Even I would miss a camera, I use it like once a month, but I'd miss it.`
`00:53.06`	`SpeedEvil`	`Pictures is probably more important for the chav in the street.`
`00:53.19`	`SpeedEvil`	`Even I find ithandy.`
`00:53.34`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's a _really_ handy way of avoiding writing down long lists of stuff`
`00:53.49`	`SuN`	`And capturing funny moments.`
`00:53.55`	`SpeedEvil`	`That too.`
`00:54.14`	`lincman`	`like I said, cam is probably what the average people think about as useful vs wifi as opposed to the techies`
`00:54.37`	`SpeedEvil`	`Alas, I have fewer funny moments than times I need to write sutuff down.`
`00:55.01`	`SuN`	`Wifi depends a lot on the apps as well. If there's no decent browser, wifi is pretty pointless IMO.`
`00:55.15`	`lincman`	`I saw the coolest lil bt keyboard`
`00:55.34`	`lincman`	`since it doesn't appear that its gonna be easy on this phone`
`00:55.42`	`SuN`	`Got a link?`
`00:56.02`	`SpeedEvil`	`Done _right_ - walk past an AP you have rights to, download all your RSS, favourite website headlines, ... it could be very nice.`
`00:56.35`	`lincman`	`i get my rss pretty quickly on my t650`
`00:56.39`	`lincman`	`and thats with edge`
`00:56.48`	`SuN`	`Right now, I can do the same with BT though. It only becomes interesting if I can access other people's access points.`
`00:57.07`	`SpeedEvil`	`YUeah.`
`00:57.57`	`SpeedEvil`	`Teh wifi spec really needed a spec for a VPN to a third party box that users could authenticat to, for a per-byte charge.`
`00:58.08`	`SpeedEvil`	`That goes to the owner of the router.`
`00:58.25`	`SpeedEvil`	`Then people'd have a motive to let people use it.`
`00:58.43`	`SuN`	`Paid public hotspots aren't very interesting, at least not here -- too expensive.`
`00:58.47`	`SpeedEvil`	`No.`
`00:59.16`	`SuN`	`But I can imagine it'd be handy on some occasions when at Uni or perhaps at a company.`
`00:59.19`	`SpeedEvil`	`I mean that when Joe gets his internet router home from the shop, it pops up a 'do you want to make money as a public hotspot' box.`
`00:59.35`	`SuN`	`Yeah, that has all sorts of implications though.`
`00:59.36`	`SpeedEvil`	`And if he answers yes, it all just works.`
`00:59.52`	`lincman`	`who wanted the keyboard link?`
`00:59.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`True. If you make it only VPN, it removes most of them though.`
`01:00.10`	`SuN`	`I did, but I don't think anyone would mind if you posted it in here :)`
`01:00.38`	`SuN`	`With providing a service comes responsibility, etc.`
`01:00.40`	`lincman`	`http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php`
`01:01.36`	`SpeedEvil`	`I was assuming that the only way out for a user was with public/private key authentication to one of a public list of VPN machines.`
`01:02.04`	`SpeedEvil`	`The router owner could not know what was being sent. And all trafffic just comes out of the end of the VPN.`
`01:02.18`	`SpeedEvil`	`With the router owner getting paid per byte.`
`01:02.28`	`SuN`	`That doesn't really exempt the owner of the AP.`
`01:02.32`	`Elrond`	`hehe. :-)`
`01:02.35`	`SuN`	`Plus there's taxes, etc.`
`01:02.47`	`SuN`	`And what if you charge someone but your internet connection wasn't functioning properly?`
`01:03.05`	`SpeedEvil`	`Actually, it completely exempts the owner of the AP, as the VPN requires acutal registration.`
`01:03.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`Anyway - it'd need to have been put in at the start, and it wasn't.`
`01:03.33`	`SuN`	`I'd like to see that stand in court.`
`01:03.36`	`Lumpio-`	`Wait, that keyboard is credit-card sized?`
`01:03.48`	`lincman`	`whos gonna write the driver for that cute lil keyboard`
`01:04.02`	`Lumpio-`	`The guy whose hand is in the picture must have /tiny/ hands`
`01:04.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's the other side of the usual mobile phone model agency.`
`01:04.26`	`SuN`	`Especially suited for leprechauns!`
`01:04.39`	`Elrond`	`SpeedEvil - Wasn't one provider or router distributor offering exactly that?`
`01:04.44`	`SpeedEvil`	`Most mobile phone people want large-handedf people in their ads.`
`01:05.05`	`SpeedEvil`	`Elrond: Yeah - I was meaning that it turns up in _every_ router.`
`01:05.16`	`Elrond`	`Ahh.`
`01:05.26`	`Lumpio-`	`Yeah, people with large hands in phone ads`
`01:05.48`	`Lumpio-`	`If you zoom into the ad you'll actually see them push "1", "2", "Left softkey", "Clear" and "Left" while answerring a call`
`01:08.18`	`lincman`	`that is the one feature from my treo650 I will miss`
`01:08.22`	`lincman`	`no keyboard`
`01:08.33`	`Elrond`	`About the phone: I actually like the current choice a lot. If the fonts can be made larger easily without breaking the GUI, it'll be really nice.`
`01:08.51`	`C7`	`just my two cents to the standby clock discussion: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Standby-clock.png ;)`
`01:10.43`	`alphaone`	`C7: Nice :-)`
`01:11.43`	`SuN`	`NIce indeed.`
`01:12.05`	`SuN`	`It would be funny to have it have an inner shadow, so it will seem embedded into the screen.`
`01:13.00`	`zecke`	`w`
`01:13.26`	`SuN`	`241 users, I'm not going to list them all.`
`01:13.38`	`SpeedEvil`	`http://www.gadgetshop.com/pws/images/catalogue/full/247825.jpg`
`01:14.32`	`lincman`	`is that what the clock looks like after you have been coding for 36 hours straight`
`01:15.28`	`*** join/#openmoko jick (n=jick@222.92.90.170)`
`01:15.42`	`C7`	`SuN: true .. just a q&d picture.. i can upload the .svg if you wanna play with ;)`
`01:15.47`	`SpeedEvil`	`http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/RIC/2400-3831~The-Persistence-of-Memory-c-1931-Posters.jpg - when the battery is running down.`
`01:16.40`	`lincman`	`hehehehe`
`01:17.15`	`SuN`	`Sure. I like it a lot already though.`
`01:17.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`Me too.`
`01:17.40`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's just a shame that it takes so much power.`
`01:17.56`	`SpeedEvil`	`To display the clock - you need to have the CPU at full speed, and the backlight on.`
`01:18.21`	`SuN`	`Activation on holding a button or a gesture is fine with me though.`
`01:18.24`	`peepsalot`	`does CPU have to be full speed anytime display is on?`
`01:18.25`	`SpeedEvil`	`Yeah.`
`01:18.32`	`SpeedEvil`	`Unfortuanately.`
`01:18.35`	`SuN`	`My last 3 phones have had that feature -- hold button -> clock`
`01:18.37`	`SpeedEvil`	`However.`
`01:18.39`	`C7`	`outch`
`01:18.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`It _may_ be possible to run the display over I2C.`
`01:19.10`	`SpeedEvil`	`Some displays can do that, rather than use the typical 'video rate' interface.`
`01:19.27`	`SpeedEvil`	`If that was the case, then drawing on the display at slow speeds is quite inexpensive.`
`01:19.39`	`peepsalot`	`is there just a full and a slow speed (and off) with no modes inbetween?`
`01:19.43`	`SpeedEvil`	`And it can probably keep a static image when the processor is in suspend-RAM.`
`01:19.50`	`SpeedEvil`	`Yes.`
`01:19.56`	`SpeedEvil`	`Well - not inherenrtly.`
`01:20.04`	`SpeedEvil`	`But you'd need an external clock generator.`
`01:20.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`Which the current hardware does not have.`
`01:21.12`	`peepsalot`	`i wonder how difficult it would be to have a clock generator that checks CPU usage and adjusts on the fly`
`01:21.41`	`SpeedEvil`	`If it was possible to do that, then with the backlight at around a third of nominal brioghtness and CPU off, yuou _might_ get 24 hours.`
`01:21.53`	`SpeedEvil`	`Unfortunately, it's not difficult at all.`
`01:22.05`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's hard to do cheaply, low power, and variable speed.`
`01:22.34`	`SpeedEvil`	`The slow mode is 12Mhz, and USB,(hence bluetooth) and the screen don't work.`
`01:23.19`	`C7`	`hm.. and it realy isnt the most important thing to have..`
`01:23.31`	`peepsalot`	`somewhere on the wiki, hardware wishlist maybe, someone suggested being able to activate just a portion of the backlight, which would be nice for something like a clock app`
`01:23.36`	`C7`	`btw.. cant upload the svg to the wiki..`
`01:23.49`	`C7`	`any ideas where to put it?`
`01:23.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`Me.`
`01:24.04`	`peepsalot`	`C7, power saving tech is not important?`
`01:24.19`	`C7`	`no the clock ;)`
`01:24.22`	`SpeedEvil`	`Ho9wever, I've subsequenylu learned that the display likely has 3 LEDs only in.`
`01:24.48`	`SpeedEvil`	`Which would mean that practically speaking, you'd need another one that was designed to only illuminate a small area.`
`01:24.59`	`SpeedEvil`	`Run at low power.`
`01:25.05`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's not only for the clock.`
`01:25.05`	`peepsalot`	`well, if it could use 1/3 power that is a start`
`01:25.15`	`lincman`	`i thought there were no leds on the phone`
`01:25.20`	`SpeedEvil`	`It'd also be nice for signal LEDs, message indication, ...`
`01:25.28`	`peepsalot`	`backlight LEDs lincman, for the display`
`01:25.29`	`SpeedEvil`	`there are 3 white LEDs in hte backl.ight.`
`01:25.38`	`lincman`	`oh ooops sorry`
`01:25.48`	`SpeedEvil`	`Notebook keyboard has really screwed my typingh.`
`01:26.02`	`lincman`	`no my fault I misread`
`01:27.01`	`SpeedEvil`	`If the display is 20cm^2, and uses 200mW to backlight, then 1cm^2 can be done at normal brightness for 10mA. Or 120 hours.`
`01:27.08`	`SpeedEvil`	`10mW`
`01:27.32`	`SpeedEvil`	`Err`
`01:27.35`	`SpeedEvil`	`420 hours.`
`01:28.06`	`SpeedEvil`	`I don't know how bad it'd look though.`
`01:28.18`	`SpeedEvil`	`It could look horrible, like it was broken.`
`01:28.32`	`SpeedEvil`	`Depending on how the patch of illumination tails off.`
`01:29.46`	`SuN`	`lincman: http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/product/8555.htm`
`01:30.18`	`SuN`	`Not very cheap, but it looks like it's easier to use.`
`01:30.33`	`lincman`	`you could also do it like the razr does whre the screen is on without the backlight to display the time`
`01:31.09`	`SuN`	`<PROTECTED>`
`01:31.47`	`SpeedEvil`	`lincman: Nope.`
`01:32.04`	`lincman`	`how there are no buttons on it to push save for the power is that not correct?`
`01:32.10`	`SpeedEvil`	`The screens of some mobikles are visible without the backlight, as they have a silvered layer at the back otf the display.`
`01:32.15`	`*** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@Z6335.z.pppool.de)`
`01:32.29`	`SpeedEvil`	`This about halves the brightness of the display backlight.`
`01:32.45`	`lincman`	`ok speed, I always thought the screen was on`
`01:32.47`	`SpeedEvil`	`So there is a tradeoff between visibility with no backlight, and backlight brightness.`
`01:33.02`	`SpeedEvil`	`In the neo, they've gone for max brightness.`
`01:33.20`	`SpeedEvil`	`And, even with the screen on, with the backlight off, you can't practically see anything.`
`01:33.26`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: what's the N-simple-steps procedure to upload new firmware via dfu-util when you don't have physical access to the phone?`
`01:34.01`	`CoreDump\|home`	`use devirginator`
`01:34.20`	`alphaone`	`SpeedEvil: That is the case if you set brightness to 0 via sysfs, right?`
`01:34.20`	`CoreDump\|home`	`devirginator -1 -2 IIRC`
`01:34.42`	`SpeedEvil`	`There is an 'aux' button in addition to the power.`
`01:34.55`	`SpeedEvil`	`As I understand it, yes.`
`01:35.17`	`lincman`	`ok so you could use that to get it to say the time`
`01:35.24`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: hmm, well, getting neo into dfu-mode could be a problem =)`
`01:35.25`	`lincman`	`or turn on the backlight`
`01:35.57`	`SpeedEvil`	`The easy way is probably for a stroke all the way across the display to turn on the backlight, and show the clock.`
`01:36.01`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: yeah, is there no way to get into a mode where dfu-util or devirginator works, without physical access to the device?`
`01:36.03`	`*** join/#openmoko t0nY (n=nengyu@59-124-92-123.HINET-IP.hinet.net)`
`01:36.26`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: maybe there is a way with openocd`
`01:36.40`	`SpeedEvil`	`Will powering off the hub that the devices is attached to, letting the battery run down, then powering up again do anything?`
`01:36.53`	`rwhitby`	`SpeedEvil: not sure it will power up again in that case`
`01:37.03`	`SpeedEvil`	`Oh well.`
`01:37.32`	`rwhitby`	`didn't someone the other day have a problem that the battery went completely flat, and wouldn't turn on the charging circuitry?`
`01:37.51`	`SpeedEvil`	`I think a couple of people have had that problem.`
`01:38.17`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: you could of course choose the hardcore route and hack u-boot to _not_ boot the kernel (and thus stay in dfu-mode) and use openocd to really kickstart the kernel boot`
`01:38.53`	`CoreDump\|home`	`you could use minicom to kickstart the kernel as well`
`01:39.08`	`CoreDump\|home`	`hacking u-boot would be trivial =)`
`01:39.26`	`alphaone`	`rwhitby: Yeah, I had/have that problem`
`01:39.51`	`alphaone`	`Actually it seemed to turn on the device but then rebooted`
`01:40.14`	`alphaone`	`So it may not have turned on the fast charging`
`01:42.07`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03werner * r1312 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch:`
`01:42.08`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (handle_dnload): "nand erase clear" the end of the rootfs`
`01:42.08`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: partition`
`01:43.06`	`kmeyer`	`wait, why u-boot?`
`01:43.07`	`kmeyer`	`:P`
`01:43.10`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: I was considering connecting the power button, aux button, and reset switch on debug board to the serial controlled relay box`
`01:43.47`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: if you hack u-boot, wiring RESET should be enough`
`01:43.51`	`rwhitby`	`but didn't want to do that before I do all the demos of the device to the local Linux users group and a seminar at the local Motorola software centre.`
`01:45.13`	`rwhitby`	`so for the moment it's just connected by mini-usb and no firmware changes yet (which is suprising me most of all)`
`01:45.44`	`CoreDump\|home`	`hehe`
`01:45.49`	`lincman`	`so it actually lives rw?`
`01:48.12`	`rwhitby`	`lincman: sure, connected to an iomega nas100d, and just making sure the mokoslug OE distro has everything needed to service a neo from an nslu2 or nas100d or freecom fsg3 or other nas/router device with usb`
`01:49.37`	`lincman`	`wow fun`
`01:51.55`	`rwhitby`	`... so existing SlugOS users can join the fun when they buy a Neo`
`01:52.35`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: I think I've got zd1211rw usb wifi dongle working on the nslu2 now, at least for very a simple "iwlist scanning" test, both LE and BE.`
`01:53.04`	`CoreDump\|home`	`ah, that's good news =)`
`01:53.04`	`lincman`	`has there been talk of what kind of browser will be implemented on the unit?`
`01:53.27`	`CoreDump\|home`	`lincman: actually there already is some sort of browser`
`01:54.31`	`lincman`	`hopefully better than what is on treo`
`01:55.52`	`CoreDump\|home`	`ATM it is a piece of junk =)`
`01:56.30`	`lincman`	`maybe somoen can port something like opera`
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`01:57.21`	`CoreDump\|home`	`that would suprise me as opera isn't exactly OpenSource`
`01:57.21`	`alphaone`	`Has anyone had any experience tracing a kernel via JTAG?`
`01:58.00`	`CoreDump\|home`	`not me`
`01:58.10`	`alphaone`	`Is all I have to do add debugging symbols?`
`01:58.28`	`alphaone`	`Doesn't seem to work with the default kernel`
`01:59.22`	`SuN`	`It's not open source but it does run on the platform already... maybe Opera is even willing to contribute an X11 version.`
`02:00.19`	`SuN`	`All things aside, it is currently the number one mobile browser.`
`02:00.19`	`CoreDump\|home`	`SuN: No question there`
`02:00.20`	`Ycros`	`don't Opera make all their money on the embedded market?`
`02:00.20`	`Ycros`	`I doubt they'd give it to you for free`
`02:00.52`	`lincman`	`are there no good open source browsers out there that are for embeded systems?`
`02:01.03`	`zecke`	`lincman: www.webkit.org`
`02:01.14`	`SuN`	`I haven't seen one that's even remotely usable.`
`02:01.33`	`SuN`	`Maybe FIC can buy a license... no clue how much that would cost.`
`02:01.45`	`lincman`	`gotta love the open source community`
`02:01.53`	`Ycros`	`what do the nokia tablets run?`
`02:02.06`	`SuN`	`gpe-mini-browser in some modified form?`
`02:02.23`	`Ycros`	`some sort of mini-moz, as well as opera`
`02:03.49`	`lincman`	`this phone is going to be so spectacular when it actually rolls out`
`02:04.43`	`lincman`	`and its jsut because there are so many people who will be able to contribute to it`
`02:05.11`	`SuN`	`I just hope there will be enough people that can see beyond the technical side.`
`02:05.37`	`Ycros`	`aye, something to make it compelling to everyday people`
`02:07.24`	`lincman`	`thats what I was saying about the choice between cam and wifi earlier`
`02:07.43`	`lincman`	`but if you look at the palm platform that is why so many people loved it`
`02:08.12`	`SuN`	`I have mixed feelings about Palm.`
`02:08.33`	`SuN`	`On one hand, it's an extremely accessible platform, easy to use and straightforward.`
`02:08.50`	`lincman`	`unfortunatly palm is dead`
`02:08.55`	`lincman`	`the os is dead`
`02:09.00`	`SuN`	`But on the other hand it's severely limited, by design and by what manufacturers want(ed) you to do with them.`
`02:09.31`	`lincman`	`that is why I am so convinced that this project is going to be so successful`
`02:09.54`	`lincman`	`because I think this platform kicks the crap out of palmos`
`02:10.09`	`SuN`	`There won't be a lack of options, but I sincerely hope it will be efficient to use as a daily phone as well.`
`02:10.16`	`lincman`	`and the amount of people who will develop for it is gonna be huge`
`02:10.42`	`lincman`	`i think as long as the features are better than todays treo it will`
`02:11.07`	`lincman`	`by that I mean the calendar notes adress book`
`02:11.12`	`lincman`	`things like tat`
`02:11.14`	`lincman`	`that`
`02:11.59`	`SuN`	`Incidentally, those are more or less the Achilles' heels of embedded Linux at the moment.`
`02:12.40`	`lincman`	`but if you look at apps for the palm like datebk5`
`02:14.14`	`lincman`	`those tools that improved upon the crap that palm gave us`
`02:14.47`	`lincman`	`its totally forseeable that this could happen with this phone too`
`02:14.56`	`SuN`	`Yeah`
`02:15.11`	`SuN`	`But I remember a certain device called "Zaurus".`
`02:15.29`	`*** join/#openmoko NAiL (n=repvik@nslu2-linux/pdpc.active.NAiL)`
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`02:18.12`	`lincman`	`and I think it will be even easier for people to develop apps for this unit`
`02:19.51`	`SuN`	`I essentially bought a Sony Picturebook to replace my Zaurus, because in about 6 years, there's still not a decent web browser available, and as a PDA with calendar/PIM it's rather insufficient as well if you ask me.`
`02:20.51`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1313 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/atcmd.c:`
`02:20.51`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * deal correctly with 'gsm power cycling'`
`02:20.51`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * consider % as prefix for extended response, even though non-standard`
`02:21.00`	`SuN`	`The benefits of an X86 platform are great, in that regard.`
`02:21.32`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1314 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (9 files in 5 dirs): * properly implement PIN/PUK handling throughout gsmd/libgsmd/util`
`02:21.52`	`SuN`	`It sounds so simple though, develop a suite of simple apps, get it on par with Windows Mobile, then improve upon that, and you have the ultimate platform.`
`02:21.58`	`SpeedEvil`	`Not really. A platform that commnly availablr apps are compiled for`
`02:21.58`	`lincman`	`the new little Sony UX is cute too`
`02:22.39`	`SpeedEvil`	`you don't so much care if it's x86, if firefox/... can run on it without problems.`
`02:22.45`	`SuN`	`Well, in addition, the Zaurus isn't really capable of running the bigger mainstream apps.`
`02:23.05`	`SuN`	`Firefox is extremely slow and its interface isn't really suited for the Z in all cases.`
`02:24.00`	`SpeedEvil`	`Yeah. I did some experimenting, and with the right extensions and setup, FF is surprisingly not bad on a neo-sied screen.`
`02:24.10`	`SpeedEvil`	`The problem is the resource leaks.`
`02:24.38`	`SuN`	`WHat I used to do on my Zaurus, is run Opera over ssh over wifi.`
`02:24.47`	`SuN`	`Worked pretty well.`
`02:24.54`	`SuN`	`My desktop did all the work that way.`
`02:25.23`	`SuN`	`The SOny UX is a very neat device, but way too expensive.`
`02:25.24`	`lincman`	`so do you think that this platform will be better SuN?`
`02:25.46`	`SuN`	`Time will tell... the only thing I'm saying is that I'm not 100% confident per se.`
`02:26.49`	`SuN`	`With the Zaurus and Openzaurus in particular, the emphasis was too much on the technical side. From a user's perspective, it was/is a fairly mediocre platform.`
`02:27.16`	`SuN`	`You only need a few good people to focus on the usability, but they need to be given the right opportunities, and they need to not lose interest.`
`02:27.40`	`zecke`	`LaF0rge: do you happen to be awake?`
`02:28.29`	`lincman`	`well hopefully there will be some really creative folk who will take the examples from what the pim stuff looked like on treo and make it better`
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`02:30.28`	`rwhitby`	`hey bluelightning`
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`02:31.23`	`bluelightning`	`hi rwhitby`
`02:34.44`	`lincman`	`rw it sounds to me like you are probably not going to focus on apps then correct?`
`02:35.19`	`lincman`	`since your things sound mostly OS centric`
`02:36.48`	`SuN`	`Hah, succesfully tricked mkphone in running without an actual phone.`
`02:37.04`	`SuN`	`Fairly trivial, but still :)`
`02:37.45`	`CoreDump\|home`	`lincman: working on apps is only half the fun =) Good apps need a good core distribution`
`02:38.09`	`lincman`	`I agree CD`
`02:38.27`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: "OpenMoko is based on Angstrom"?`
`02:38.48`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: did you mean OpenEmbedded?`
`02:39.20`	`CoreDump\|home`	`well it is compiled w/ OE but is using lots and lots of meta-data created for and by Angstrom`
`02:40.25`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: Distributions compiled with OE re-use other OE-distros stuff quiet a lot (no re-inventing the whell etc)`
`02:40.40`	`rwhitby`	`lincman: I need a stable embedded development platform, and cheap (i.e. not GPRS) bluetooth networking at home and work before I can start any app work.`
`02:40.43`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: If I read right, Angstrom is more OZ-influenced than other OE-based distros`
`02:41.32`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: Angstrom is a very flexible distro that can be made to work on many devices. koen\|away is actually running an Angstrom image on his neo right now ;)`
`02:43.53`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: From their webpage, it sounds like Angstrom wants to compete with OE, but from you it sounds like they are just another OE downstream`
`02:44.40`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: OE descibes the whole repository of meta-data. It is _not_ a distribution. Angstrom is a distribution compiled using OE meta-data`
`02:45.14`	`CoreDump\|home`	`so is openzaurus, so was familiar, so is slugos, etc etc`
`02:46.36`	`lincman`	`is the openmoko structure open to including these distros?`
`02:47.49`	`CoreDump\|home`	`lincman: yes OM, is "just" another ( but damn exiting ) distro compiled with OE =)`
`02:48.15`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: I understand that SlugOS/LE doesn't use OE`
`02:48.40`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: now they do =)`
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`02:49.03`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: SlugOS/BE does`
`02:49.04`	`SuN`	`The distro is most likely not going to pose much of a problem.`
`02:50.08`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: trust ne, both LE and BE are build with OE right now`
`02:50.19`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: I trust you`
`02:50.27`	`lincman`	`well all i have to say is i can hardly wait to see what you do with it`
`02:50.57`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s34n: http://hentges.net/tmp/snapshots/SlugOS/ <- slugos 4.3 alpha ;)`
`02:51.01`	`CoreDump\|home`	`meh`
`02:51.25`	`CoreDump\|home`	`that should have been /msg....not that anyone believes me now hehe`
`02:52.07`	`s34n`	`CoreDump\|home: that is password protected`
`02:52.28`	`CoreDump\|home`	`PASSWORD REQUIRED, read carefully:`
`02:52.34`	`CoreDump\|home`	`you didn't read`
`02:52.50`	`s34n`	`"You have to read and accept Intels license agreement"`
`02:53.19`	`s34n`	`That is there condition`
`02:53.22`	`s34n`	`their`
`02:53.36`	`CoreDump\|home`	`exactly`
`02:55.33`	`C7`	`Elrond: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Standby_clock ;)`
`02:57.35`	`parag0n`	`C7-asleep, YES`
`02:57.38`	`parag0n`	`THAT IS AWESOME`
`02:59.57`	`rwhitby`	`s34n: I think you're thinking of Debian/NSLU2 which is not built by OE. SlugOS (in LE and BE variants) is built by OE, and so is the Unslung firmware (but not the Optware packages)`
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`03:11.17`	`alphaone`	`good night everyone`
`03:12.23`	`CoreDump\|home`	`n8 alphaone`
`03:12.54`	`zecke`	`good night`
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`04:25.07`	`cworth`	`Oh, hmmm... my phone made it back into the "dead battery trying to boot every 7 seconds" state.`
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`05:44.12`	`rwhitby`	`863 downloads of MokoMakefile`
`05:44.33`	`rwhitby`	`(that includes repeat downloads for updates)`
`05:45.50`	`rwhitby`	`674 unique IP addresses`
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`05:50.13`	`lincman`	`cool`
`05:50.29`	`lincman`	`nice to know there are lots of people working on this`
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`06:00.13`	`rwhitby`	`hmm - I left out the access.log (was only looking at access.log.*.gz) - it's actually 897 unique IP addresses when I add in those from the last week.`
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`08:15.34`	`LoDown`	`counter`
`08:15.34`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, a day 03:44:25 (22.156 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (511)`
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`08:52.12`	`lu_zero`	`hi`
`08:52.16`	`xkr47`	`ho`
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`09:31.47`	`Hopscotch`	`good morning`
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`10:30.02`	`PBeck`	`hi`
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`10:53.24`	`PBeck`	`hm is in any basic kit at phase2 a 512 mb sd card on board?`
`10:53.28`	`PBeck`	`microsd`
`10:54.01`	`SpeedEvil`	`Probably.`
`10:54.14`	`SpeedEvil`	`It'll be negative several dollars in price at that time.`
`10:54.22`	`SpeedEvil`	`Continuing current trends.`
`10:54.34`	`SpeedEvil`	`So it'll actually be cheaper to include it.`
`10:54.40`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: ok thanks`
`10:55.06`	`PBeck`	`512 is a good compromis for the datastorage i think`
`10:55.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`I can't imagine them not shipping without one - though not actually negative, it'll be _very_ cheap in volumes of tens of thousands.`
`10:55.41`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: yes you are right`
`10:56.03`	`SpeedEvil`	`I would actually be surprised if it doesn't ship with 2G.`
`10:56.18`	`PBeck`	`2G?`
`10:56.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`the card`
`10:56.52`	`PBeck`	`hä? you mean the ship a 2 GB card?`
`10:56.55`	`SpeedEvil`	`Being able to put '2 gigabyte' on the box is a plus.`
`10:56.56`	`PBeck`	`*they`
`10:57.06`	`PBeck`	`you mean that is possible?`
`10:57.06`	`SpeedEvil`	`Come september, yes.`
`10:57.21`	`PBeck`	`really?`
`10:57.41`	`SpeedEvil`	`It looks like the controller may support SDHC, it just hasn't been tested.`
`10:57.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`In which case, 2, 4G cards, and upwards should work just fine.`
`10:58.15`	`PBeck`	`hm where has say that they do ship 2 GB?`
`10:58.17`	`inz`	`SpeedEvil, your triple-negation is confusing...`
`10:58.40`	`SpeedEvil`	`It says that nowhere.`
`10:58.57`	`SpeedEvil`	`I'm just saying that I would be surprised if they ship as low as 512, come september.`
`10:59.09`	`PBeck`	`hum`
`10:59.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`Or whenever Phase 2 hits.`
`11:00.35`	`guaqua`	`neo makes a fancy mp3 player too`
`11:00.39`	`SpeedEvil`	`Yeah.`
`11:00.52`	`SpeedEvil`	`And that's _got_ to be well supported.`
`11:00.57`	`guaqua`	`a bit expensive, but if i can get 4GB card with it and buy it under 400 eur......`
`11:01.00`	`SpeedEvil`	`Which means lots of storage.`
`11:01.14`	`PBeck`	`wow the stylus i a lamp, laser, pen and ... a stylus of course ^^`
`11:01.14`	`SpeedEvil`	`4G cards are currently unavailabl.`
`11:01.32`	`guaqua`	`well, as you said, when phase2 hits :)`
`11:02.00`	`PBeck`	`guaqua: perhaps the player you are already use at your pc ;)`
`11:07.02`	`PBeck`	`the neo have two speaker yes?`
`11:07.19`	`*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)`
`11:12.56`	`SpeedEvil`	`yes, 2.`
`11:13.26`	`guaqua`	`3D SOUND!`
`11:14.41`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: ok thy`
`11:14.42`	`PBeck`	`thx`
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`11:30.08`	`wansti`	`yo`
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`11:42.04`	`PBeck`	`hum i dont find the page with the text about the hardware refresh :/`
`11:44.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`I don't think there is a nice one.`
`11:45.31`	`*** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@cable-vrk-feb6dd00-89.dhcp.inet.fi)`
`11:45.36`	`SpeedEvil`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973`
`11:46.05`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: oh yes exactly this`
`11:46.14`	`PBeck`	`how you search?`
`11:47.05`	`PBeck`	`hm when is the refresh planed? june oder july?`
`11:47.32`	`PBeck`	`hm ah june`
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`11:54.21`	`SpeedEvil`	`I'd say 'june or july' is probably safe.`
`11:54.53`	`*** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177)`
`11:56.28`	`empty_mind`	`anyone faced this error with mokomakefile http://pastebin.ca/388935`
`11:57.03`	`empty_mind`	`i get aforeaid error during make setup`
`11:57.11`	`rwhitby`	`do make update, then make setup`
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`11:57.57`	`empty_mind`	`ok`
`11:59.45`	`PBeck`	`http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/fic_neo1973_2007_timeline.gif <= hm can i use this photo on my webpage?`
`11:59.53`	`PBeck`	`of course on my webspace`
`12:00.45`	`empty_mind`	`so when will the neo be available for second rug developers?`
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`12:00.50`	`rwhitby`	`PBeck: you would need to ask linuxdevices, wouldn't you?`
`12:01.13`	`PBeck`	`rwhitby: this is a roadmap from sean`
`12:01.20`	`PBeck`	`out of this presentation`
`12:01.23`	`PBeck`	`for the fosdem`
`12:01.32`	`rwhitby`	`empty_mind: make update setup definitely works here. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Updating_the_environment`
`12:01.44`	`PBeck`	`*his ...`
`12:01.52`	`rwhitby`	`PBeck: apologies - I thought it was something linuxdevices created.`
`12:02.16`	`PBeck`	`really? Oh i dont know`
`12:02.58`	`rwhitby`	`no, if it was in the presentation then it's not`
`12:03.20`	`rwhitby`	`(I was mistaken)`
`12:03.34`	`PBeck`	`can i use it then?`
`12:04.09`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, i an trying with make setup; make update instead of make update;make setup , so could have run into error`
`12:04.30`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, is there a make clean target in mokomakefile ?`
`12:04.34`	`rwhitby`	`always update, then setup.`
`12:04.46`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, thnxs will remember`
`12:05.03`	`rwhitby`	`make clobber will delete build/tmp and make you wait another 7 hours to get it back :-)`
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`12:05.41`	`rwhitby`	`make setup is only really required if there is a major change to the build directory structure. make update is usually enough.`
`12:06.07`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, ok, build/tmp is preserved over updates ?`
`12:06.08`	`rwhitby`	`yes`
`12:07.02`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, what is te normal disc space required for building openmoko. Last successfull has eaten 11GB of disc space.`
`12:07.06`	`*** join/#openmoko jick (n=jick@222.92.90.170)`
`12:07.17`	`rwhitby`	`yep, if you don't use rm_work that's what it will take`
`12:07.17`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, so was wondering if there is a way to reduce the size`
`12:07.24`	`empty_mind`	`ok`
`12:07.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`Get a larger disk? :)`
`12:07.42`	`rwhitby`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Tips`
`12:08.26`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, i saw that, but will it require 7 hrs of downloads`
`12:08.32`	`*** join/#openmoko djsuszi (i=f17aba2f@beer.in.lublin.pl)`
`12:08.51`	`rwhitby`	`who said anything about 7 hours of downloads?`
`12:09.05`	`rwhitby`	`as long as you don't delete your sources directory, then everything is already downloaded`
`12:09.22`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, ok`
`12:09.25`	`rwhitby`	`but if you make clobber, you'll have 7 hours of building in front of you`
`12:09.31`	`empty_mind`	`rwhitby, cool`
`12:09.49`	`rwhitby`	`(that's why it's called "clobber", not "clean")`
`12:10.33`	`rwhitby`	`in general, you should just "make update all" daily to stay in sync`
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`12:36.56`	`PBeck`	`alphaone: can i use a few photos of your neo on my webpage? of course on my webspace`
`12:38.35`	`PBeck`	`hrw\|gone: ping`
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`12:55.37`	`hrw`	`morning`
`12:55.43`	`hrw`	`PBeck: pöng`
`12:55.52`	`Liane`	`morning there`
`12:58.40`	`hrw`	`PBeck: if you want to use my flickr photos you are expected to give credits and link photos to flickr`
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`13:13.51`	`*** join/#openmoko _PBeck (i=PBeck@yourse.de)`
`13:15.35`	`_PBeck`	`hum`
`13:15.41`	`_PBeck`	`freenode ...`
`13:16.09`	`_PBeck`	`hrw: have you get my last message?`
`13:16.09`	`aloril`	`_PBeck: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`13:16.22`	`hrw`	`PBeck: 10 13:43 < PBeck> hrw\|gone: ping`
`13:16.27`	`hrw`	`PBeck: this one?`
`13:16.46`	`_PBeck`	`14:09:39 < PBeck> hrw: ok thx i link zu flickr :)`
`13:17.36`	`_PBeck`	`perhaps i was already disconnected`
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`13:47.13`	`buz`	`2G is not sdhc from all i know`
`13:51.38`	`buz`	`is the sd speed limited by cards or by the controller?`
`13:52.09`	`hrw`	`both`
`13:58.08`	`*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)`
`14:00.35`	`*** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)`
`14:07.35`	`*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3F388.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`14:08.28`	`*** join/#openmoko Liane (i=Liane@125-230-172-243.dynamic.hinet.net)`
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`14:14.14`	`*** join/#openmoko Liane (i=Liane@125-230-172-243.dynamic.hinet.net)`
`14:14.30`	`buz`	`how can it be both`
`14:15.19`	`hrw`	`card can be slow and controller fast == slow speed`
`14:15.26`	`SpeedEvil`	`How fast can you ride a bicycle down a hill?`
`14:15.33`	`hrw`	`card can be fast and slow controller == slow speed`
`14:18.37`	`*** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)`
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`14:22.10`	`greghunt`	`SpeedEvil, teminal velocity in theory perhaps`
`14:22.15`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: very fast :p`
`14:22.21`	`greghunt`	`most i've managed is around 55-60km/h`
`14:22.55`	`greghunt`	`on death road anyway :)`
`14:23.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`I was more meaning that there are two limits - how fast you can go, and how fast is safe.`
`14:23.35`	`*** part/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.160.106)`
`14:23.38`	`SpeedEvil`	`You are limited by the lower.`
`14:24.33`	`PBeck`	`its unsave when i rida a bicycke down a hill ^^`
`14:24.44`	`PBeck`	`ride`
`14:25.31`	`greghunt`	`jumping out a plane can either be fast and safe, or dangerous and fast :)`
`14:26.12`	`aloril2`	`counter`
`14:26.12`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks 21:33:47 (21.898 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (512)`
`14:26.28`	`PBeck`	`greghunt: rofl`
`14:26.42`	`aloril2`	`2-4 weeks maybe`
`14:26.44`	`PBeck`	`greghunt: dangerous and fast(er) ;)`
`14:27.29`	`SpeedEvil`	`Attempted suicide.`
`14:27.34`	`greghunt`	`you get like 10 seconds of freefall instead of 30`
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`14:36.39`	`hrw`	`cu`
`14:42.54`	`*** join/#openmoko jkx1 (n=jkx@86.72.182.29)`
`14:45.45`	`SpeedEvil`	`Wow - we have our first wikivandal! Success!`
`14:46.40`	`tonyb2006`	`=O`
`14:49.30`	`theholyduck`	`;O`
`14:49.55`	`*** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159)`
`14:49.58`	`theholyduck`	`"when someone vandalizes your wiki-page. you must be doing something right"`
`14:50.17`	`*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)`
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`15:00.48`	`greghunt`	`what page was it?`
`15:02.59`	`SpeedEvil`	`Main`
`15:03.35`	`SpeedEvil`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=6190&oldid=6155`
`15:05.00`	`SpeedEvil`	`Hmm cheapest 512M card I found - 3M write. (USB2 reader) 9M read.`
`15:06.26`	`theholyduck`	`if i was to vandalize a wiki`
`15:06.30`	`theholyduck`	`id do it a bit more flashy`
`15:06.33`	`theholyduck`	`nothing lame like that`
`15:06.34`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`15:06.47`	`PBeck`	`SpeedEvil: rofl :D`
`15:06.51`	`theholyduck`	`atleast some random linkage to horse porn`
`15:06.52`	`theholyduck`	`or somthing`
`15:06.59`	`PBeck`	`theholyduck: yes very lame ;)`
`15:07.04`	`CoreDump\|afk`	`right, "Hacked"....The l33tness of that idiot is killing me`
`15:07.12`	`CoreDump\|home`	`morning`
`15:07.14`	`PBeck`	`CoreDump\|home: :D`
`15:07.16`	`PBeck`	`hi CoreDump\|home ;`
`15:07.18`	`PBeck`	`;)`
`15:07.18`	`theholyduck`	`if you are gonna vandalize somthing. atleast do it propperly`
`15:07.22`	`theholyduck`	`*properly`
`15:07.31`	`theholyduck`	`same goes for anything`
`15:07.47`	`theholyduck`	`if you are going to kill people. atleast kill them fast, easy and clean`
`15:07.47`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:08.01`	`theholyduck`	`points for style`
`15:08.02`	`theholyduck`	`too`
`15:08.23`	`CoreDump\|home`	`unless you _really_ hate them. Then it's usually slow, hard and messy`
`15:08.41`	`theholyduck`	`killing for revenge is wrong`
`15:08.48`	`theholyduck`	`when you need to kill. atleast it needs some purpose`
`15:09.01`	`theholyduck`	`like money... or anarchy`
`15:09.01`	`CoreDump\|home`	`revenge is a pretty good one =)`
`15:09.10`	`theholyduck`	`or as terrorism`
`15:09.37`	`CoreDump\|home`	`s/terrorism/scare-word of the year`
`15:09.42`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:10.02`	`theholyduck`	`also when you are trying to be a terrorist. atleast do it propperly`
`15:10.07`	`theholyduck`	`your there to terrorize.`
`15:10.18`	`theholyduck`	`like drop rotten corpses on the subway`
`15:10.46`	`CoreDump\|home`	`theholyduck: one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter`
`15:10.55`	`theholyduck`	`freedom fighting is for pansys`
`15:11.02`	`theholyduck`	`real terrorists have no home place`
`15:11.08`	`DesktopMa`	`real men stay at home and beat their wives.`
`15:11.09`	`theholyduck`	`they just terrorize for the sake of terror`
`15:11.36`	`theholyduck`	`also when you are gonna car bomb somone. atleast do it in a area with high people's density`
`15:11.46`	`theholyduck`	`else people wont notice`
`15:11.52`	`DesktopMa`	`yeah seriously, die for like, 3 people?`
`15:11.55`	`theholyduck`	`indeed`
`15:11.59`	`DesktopMa`	`bummer`
`15:12.02`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:12.02`	`CoreDump\|home`	`hehe`
`15:12.29`	`theholyduck`	`something tells me some of these terrorists needs to learn how to calculate how many people is gonna be in the area of the blast`
`15:12.39`	`theholyduck`	`like observe for a week or 2 before bombing it`
`15:12.54`	`theholyduck`	`so you know at what time the most amount of people is gonna be there`
`15:13.14`	`DesktopMa`	`"Terrorism for dummies"`
`15:13.17`	`DesktopMa`	`go write it, make a fortune`
`15:13.22`	`theholyduck`	`indeed`
`15:13.38`	`DesktopMa`	`"1. If you don't have to kill yourself, don't. Seriously."`
`15:13.43`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:13.53`	`theholyduck`	`think if you can do it again and wreak double havok`
`15:14.05`	`theholyduck`	`double the destruction. double the fun!`
`15:14.24`	`theholyduck`	`2. shoe bombs fail!`
`15:14.46`	`DesktopMa`	`haha`
`15:14.51`	`theholyduck`	`i saw something pretty pointless at the airport`
`15:14.56`	`theholyduck`	`today`
`15:15.07`	`theholyduck`	`since new rules you cant take liquids above 100ml containers`
`15:15.09`	`theholyduck`	`with ya`
`15:15.09`	`DesktopMa`	`when I fly I always think "I could totally bring this plane down if I wanted to"`
`15:15.19`	`theholyduck`	`but with 100ml`
`15:15.21`	`theholyduck`	`of lets say`
`15:15.25`	`theholyduck`	`nitroglyserin`
`15:15.34`	`theholyduck`	`you ought to be able to blow a pretty big hole in a airplane`
`15:15.51`	`CoreDump\|home`	`blowing airplanes is for gimps`
`15:15.57`	`CoreDump\|home`	`anybody can do that`
`15:16.02`	`*** part/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`15:16.02`	`DesktopMa`	`yeah`
`15:16.09`	`theholyduck`	`im just saying if you are gonna restrict people from taking liquids with them on the airplane`
`15:16.12`	`theholyduck`	`do it all the way`
`15:16.14`	`CoreDump\|home`	`blowing a scycraper into pieces, that _that_ is a challenge`
`15:16.31`	`theholyduck`	`100ml per packageing 1l total`
`15:16.33`	`theholyduck`	`was allowed`
`15:16.40`	`*** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44be55.adsl.enternet.hu)`
`15:16.49`	`DesktopMa`	`If I'd go terrorist, I'd go nuclear. there's just something about that mushroom cloud`
`15:16.52`	`DesktopMa`	`reminds me of mario`
`15:16.54`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:17.08`	`DesktopMa`	`nuclear blast on a plane`
`15:17.12`	`theholyduck`	`lalz`
`15:17.17`	`DesktopMa`	`instant awesomeness, long living fallout`
`15:17.20`	`MetaBookfoziS`	`counter`
`15:17.20`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks 20:42:39 (21.863 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (513)`
`15:17.32`	`theholyduck`	`i wonder how well they scan the luggage that goes down bellow in the airplane`
`15:17.45`	`MetaBookfoziS`	`3 weeks?`
`15:17.52`	`MetaBookfoziS`	`it is changed?`
`15:18.03`	`DesktopMa`	`just use fiber optics instead of metal wire`
`15:18.05`	`DesktopMa`	`they won't detect a thing`
`15:18.24`	`theholyduck`	`:)`
`15:18.26`	`DesktopMa`	`and drop that huge digital countdown display`
`15:18.29`	`theholyduck`	`not stupid at all`
`15:18.29`	`DesktopMa`	`it's so revealing`
`15:18.46`	`theholyduck`	`i wonder if you could get the explosives by though`
`15:18.51`	`theholyduck`	`i know`
`15:18.55`	`theholyduck`	`inside the frame of the bag`
`15:19.04`	`theholyduck`	`plastic explosives inside the mettal frame`
`15:19.07`	`DesktopMa`	`plastiq explosives are really hard to see from xrays`
`15:19.14`	`theholyduck`	`well i dont have a xray`
`15:19.15`	`theholyduck`	`to test wiht`
`15:19.18`	`theholyduck`	`*with`
`15:19.26`	`theholyduck`	`i just went the safe way`
`15:19.27`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:19.34`	`DesktopMa`	`just break your leg, and put some in your cast`
`15:19.38`	`DesktopMa`	`then ask for another xray`
`15:19.40`	`theholyduck`	`:O`
`15:19.45`	`theholyduck`	`lalz`
`15:20.05`	`theholyduck`	`now on to the topic of gettin the plastic explosives`
`15:20.07`	`theholyduck`	`get them yourself?`
`15:20.09`	`theholyduck`	`or make them`
`15:20.10`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:20.21`	`DesktopMa`	`enroll in the army`
`15:20.23`	`theholyduck`	`something rdx based ought to be perfect`
`15:20.32`	`theholyduck`	`or was that rxd`
`15:20.34`	`theholyduck`	`i always forget`
`15:20.51`	`theholyduck`	`as i remeber rdx is what they used in the bunker busters during the gulf war`
`15:21.00`	`theholyduck`	`steel head`
`15:21.05`	`DesktopMa`	`I'm not too well versed in explosives, would have to read up on it`
`15:21.08`	`theholyduck`	`penetrates the concrete`
`15:21.11`	`guaqua`	`there are plenty of plastic explosives that can easily be smuggled`
`15:21.14`	`theholyduck`	`then the rdx explodes`
`15:21.14`	`DesktopMa`	`the world should be happy that nerds arn't terrorists`
`15:21.18`	`theholyduck`	`indeed`
`15:21.19`	`theholyduck`	`:p`
`15:21.33`	`DesktopMa`	`as a populus we could bring the world to an end`
`15:21.36`	`guaqua`	`the explosives are just not that easy to get`
`15:21.40`	`DesktopMa`	`we're just to lazy ass to not do it`
`15:21.43`	`theholyduck`	`i think its posible`
`15:21.50`	`theholyduck`	`just go to palestinia or somthing`
`15:21.59`	`theholyduck`	`tell them wer gonna put some "snakes" on a plane`
`15:22.10`	`SuN`	`Haha`
`15:22.11`	`DesktopMa`	`looool`
`15:22.26`	`SuN`	`I stopped watching that movie halfway through.`
`15:22.27`	`theholyduck`	`the thing is somone would have to take the luggage with the explosives with them`
`15:22.30`	`DesktopMa`	`you can place alot of explosives in a boa constrictor`
`15:22.35`	`SuN`	`I still can't see if it was meant to be serious or not.`
`15:22.43`	`theholyduck`	`since they check if you board the plane`
`15:22.47`	`theholyduck`	`if you checked in the baggage`
`15:23.05`	`DesktopMa`	`just ship an animal by air transport`
`15:23.10`	`DesktopMa`	`stuff it with explosives`
`15:23.30`	`theholyduck`	`hm just keep it in the handbagage then when everybody lines up to board`
`15:23.31`	`DesktopMa`	`you won't have to kill yourself either`
`15:23.38`	`theholyduck`	`tell some lady to hold your bag while you go poo`
`15:23.44`	`theholyduck`	`20 secconds later`
`15:23.48`	`theholyduck`	`it explodes killing the flight`
`15:24.01`	`SuN`	`If you fail to show up, they're going to pull your luggage.`
`15:24.05`	`theholyduck`	`yup`
`15:24.07`	`DesktopMa`	`"line 27 to Paris/France has been delayed due to it blowing up"`
`15:24.46`	`DesktopMa`	`wonder if they recruit really frisky people for frisking on purpouse`
`15:25.02`	`theholyduck`	`i wonder if i could manage to build some sort of rpg from the rocket fuel in my toilet stuff. and stuff you can buy at a airport`
`15:25.08`	`theholyduck`	`then aim it from somwhere hidden`
`15:25.12`	`DesktopMa`	`lol`
`15:25.19`	`DesktopMa`	`that would have been an awesome mythbusters`
`15:25.27`	`theholyduck`	`indeed`
`15:25.40`	`theholyduck`	`you know those thermos thingys`
`15:25.51`	`theholyduck`	`2 layers of mettal = plenty of fragments`
`15:27.15`	`theholyduck`	`hmm`
`15:27.35`	`theholyduck`	`i wish i had acces to a xray machine.`
`15:27.40`	`theholyduck`	`to test how good stuff shows up on it`
`15:28.12`	`theholyduck`	`then give out my research for terrorists everywhere`
`15:29.43`	`SuN`	`Just swallow anything you'd like to test, then go to the doctor, saying you have a stomach ache.`
`15:29.44`	`DesktopMa`	`wonder why they never tried shoebombs on planes`
`15:29.51`	`DesktopMa`	`just sit back, place your foot to the window...`
`15:29.53`	`DesktopMa`	`and blast it`
`15:30.11`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:30.13`	`DesktopMa`	`SuN: yeah, just be a bit resourceful and you'll get it`
`15:30.27`	`theholyduck`	`with a mechanical switch`
`15:30.29`	`theholyduck`	`hopefully`
`15:30.39`	`theholyduck`	`stupid guy trying to light his shoe on fire`
`15:30.40`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:30.42`	`DesktopMa`	`or e.g. replace chocelate that's beeing sold on the airport`
`15:30.55`	`DesktopMa`	`with one that has 80% chocolate and the rest explosives in the bottom`
`15:31.01`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:31.33`	`DesktopMa`	`if you get into the supply chain you could bring down several at once`
`15:31.46`	`DesktopMa`	`just calculate at what time there's the biggest amount of planes in the air from that particular air port`
`15:31.52`	`theholyduck`	`i remeber buying a 20 pack or somthing`
`15:31.55`	`theholyduck`	`of chewing gum`
`15:31.57`	`theholyduck`	`at tax free`
`15:32.11`	`theholyduck`	`remove all the chewing gum and replace it with a plastic explosive`
`15:32.15`	`theholyduck`	`put it in your backpack`
`15:32.33`	`theholyduck`	`plastic chewing gum and plastic explosives`
`15:32.36`	`theholyduck`	`shuldent be too difrent`
`15:32.38`	`theholyduck`	`in looks`
`15:32.38`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:32.45`	`DesktopMa`	`or you could shove 2 kg of plastics up your ass. if you're going to kill yourself anyway`
`15:32.49`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:32.52`	`theholyduck`	`lalz`
`15:33.01`	`SuN`	`Might as well go out in style.`
`15:33.04`	`*** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159)`
`15:33.04`	`DesktopMa`	`:D`
`15:33.12`	`theholyduck`	`if explosive decompression is true`
`15:33.18`	`theholyduck`	`why not hide some explosives in your watch`
`15:33.21`	`theholyduck`	`enought to blow the window`
`15:34.11`	`theholyduck`	`a directional explosive charge under the watch glass`
`15:34.13`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`15:34.24`	`theholyduck`	`there are pretty thick watches`
`15:34.45`	`theholyduck`	`too bad if it failed though. blown off hand and no downed airplane`
`15:35.19`	`SuN`	`No more masturbating and holding the remote at the same time for you!`
`15:35.27`	`DesktopMa`	`lol`
`15:35.30`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`15:35.42`	`theholyduck`	`i think you could be worrying about being in jail`
`15:35.50`	`theholyduck`	`or bloodloss`
`15:35.51`	`SuN`	`Nah, handcuffs won't fit ;)`
`15:36.01`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
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`15:54.13`	`CoreDump\|home`	`http://people.openezx.org/alphaone/pics/charger.jpg <- lol`
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`16:06.56`	`Graf_Ithaka`	`hi there!`
`16:08.02`	`Graf_Ithaka`	`just a little question.. does the microfone of the Neo1973 support a hands-free speaking system?`
`16:08.02`	`aloril`	`Graf_Ithaka: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
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`16:15.39`	`LarstiQ`	`cworth: did you get a P0 phone perchance?`
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`16:18.32`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1315 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/ (defconfig-2.6.20-fic-gta01 defconfig-2.6.20.1-fic-gta01): enabme CONFIG_DEBUG_ERRORS to give reasonable stack traces`
`16:22.51`	`cworth`	`LarstiQ: Yes, I did by chance.`
`16:24.01`	`LarstiQ`	`cworth: great, I'm looking forward to the P1 :)`
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`16:25.46`	`SpeedEvil`	`cworth: You do know that if you have a compatible phone, you can swap batteries?`
`16:26.06`	`SpeedEvil`	`(Anything with nokia BL-C5)`
`16:26.20`	`cworth`	`SpeedEvil: Yes. I didn't have a compatible phone, but I did go buy myself a BL-5C.`
`16:26.36`	`SpeedEvil`	`Chargers from ebay can be another option.`
`16:26.37`	`cworth`	`SpeedEvil: I am still missing anything to reliably charge that though...`
`16:26.55`	`cworth`	`SpeedEvil: Yeah, saw chargers there, but all with 2-week lead times or so.`
`16:27.20`	`cworth`	`It looks like I can get the neo to charge its battery sometimes at least, so maybe that will be good enough for now.`
`16:27.27`	`SpeedEvil`	`:)`
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`16:32.31`	`Graf_Ithaka`	`bin dann ma away`
`16:32.44`	`Graf_Ithaka`	`oops - wrong channel`
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`17:22.07`	`theholyduck`	`well there are some linux phone`
`17:22.12`	`theholyduck`	`s`
`17:22.13`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`17:22.16`	`theholyduck`	`but why =`
`17:22.23`	`theholyduck`	`wouldent the compile be horribly slow`
`17:22.28`	`SpeedEvil`	`Not that bad.`
`17:22.34`	`*** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84.122.65.39.dyn.user.ono.com)`
`17:22.35`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's a P100 or so class device.`
`17:22.43`	`SpeedEvil`	`It has a reasonable amount of RAM.`
`17:22.46`	`bhima`	`I'm not planning to do a BSD-style build world.`
`17:23.00`	`theholyduck`	`yeh that would be nice`
`17:23.01`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`17:23.05`	`theholyduck`	`peeps:P`
`17:23.19`	`SpeedEvil`	`I'd expect it to compile mplayer in 3 hours or so, for example.`
`17:23.29`	`theholyduck`	`3 hours is alot i say`
`17:23.30`	`theholyduck`	`but sure`
`17:23.36`	`theholyduck`	`why waste batery on compiling it on the phone`
`17:23.45`	`theholyduck`	`when you can just use some sort of cross make?`
`17:23.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`It's a nice option.`
`17:24.05`	`SpeedEvil`	`For when you might be away from a 'proper' computer.`
`17:24.21`	`theholyduck`	`hm well if somone ported gcc to the arm architecture`
`17:24.24`	`theholyduck`	`or whatever`
`17:24.25`	`theholyduck`	`it uses`
`17:24.30`	`SpeedEvil`	`There is no need for porting.`
`17:24.34`	`theholyduck`	`is there really anything saying you cant make it work?`
`17:24.37`	`SpeedEvil`	`You cross-compile, and install.`
`17:24.50`	`SpeedEvil`	`It 'just works'.`
`17:24.56`	`theholyduck`	`well then why are you bitching`
`17:24.57`	`theholyduck`	`just wait`
`17:25.12`	`SpeedEvil`	`Not really.`
`17:25.23`	`SpeedEvil`	`The back of the phone is maybe 6*6cm being generous.`
`17:25.58`	`SpeedEvil`	`that's about 4 watts of sunlight.`
`17:26.04`	`SpeedEvil`	`If it's in direct strong sunlight.`
`17:26.18`	`SpeedEvil`	`Cutting edge solar cells will produce around 0.8W or so.`
`17:26.31`	`bhima`	`I usually hold my phone in my hand.`
`17:26.44`	`bhima`	`LCD towards the sun, back panel away from it.`
`17:26.45`	`SpeedEvil`	`But, though that would charge the phone in 4 hours, it would also overheat it.`
`17:27.15`	`theholyduck`	`mount solar panels on your hat?`
`17:27.20`	`theholyduck`	`and make a cable`
`17:27.22`	`theholyduck`	`to the phone`
`17:27.26`	`theholyduck`	`wheres your geek spirit?`
`17:27.36`	`peeps`	`yeah this would only sort of work if you rest your phone on a table outside`
`17:27.42`	`theholyduck`	`that ought to give you a bit more surface area`
`17:27.54`	`theholyduck`	`also + points for having solar panels on your hat`
`17:27.58`	`SpeedEvil`	`A beanie-hat, with a small windmill on it.`
`17:28.00`	`peeps`	`oh, i have seen a backpack with solar panels in it, for recharging your mobile devices`
`17:28.10`	`theholyduck`	`well hat > backpack`
`17:28.15`	`peeps`	`was incredibly expensive though`
`17:28.21`	`theholyduck`	`like a cowboy hat`
`17:28.27`	`theholyduck`	`with alot of solar panels mounted on it`
`17:28.41`	`peeps`	`theholyduck, hmm, welll i do live in texas... ;-)`
`17:28.45`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`17:28.49`	`theholyduck`	`i live in norway`
`17:28.53`	`theholyduck`	`solar panels is just wasted`
`17:29.01`	`theholyduck`	`in north where i live`
`17:29.08`	`theholyduck`	`in the winter its dark 100% of the time anyway`
`17:29.18`	`SpeedEvil`	`Vodka fueled fuel-cell?`
`17:29.24`	`theholyduck`	`hm`
`17:29.26`	`peeps`	`SpeedEvil, fish and fjords`
`17:29.26`	`guaqua`	`hydroplant in a cell :)`
`17:29.35`	`theholyduck`	`yeh we have hydro plants`
`17:29.38`	`theholyduck`	`and lots of them`
`17:29.45`	`SpeedEvil`	`Hmm.`
`17:29.51`	`SpeedEvil`	`The phone has a lanyard.`
`17:29.52`	`theholyduck`	`i can just charge my cellphone in the socklet`
`17:29.57`	`theholyduck`	`as in the plugg`
`17:29.59`	`theholyduck`	`on the wall`
`17:29.59`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`17:30.06`	`theholyduck`	`and il be using renewable energy`
`17:30.14`	`theholyduck`	`as i live on a island with 3 or 4 hydro plants`
`17:30.19`	`theholyduck`	`no big ones`
`17:30.23`	`theholyduck`	`but theyr there`
`17:30.27`	`SpeedEvil`	`If you made the lanyard able to extend out a couple of metres or so, put a small prop on the phone, you could swing it round your head really fast to spin the prop at high speeds.`
`17:30.28`	`peeps`	`ohh, a kinetic charger would be cool. just shake the crap out of your phone, or swing it around on your lanyard for a few minutes`
`17:30.47`	`SpeedEvil`	`Kinetic chargers don't work so well.`
`17:30.49`	`guaqua`	`:)`
`17:30.58`	`theholyduck`	`how about usb charger?`
`17:30.59`	`theholyduck`	`or somthing`
`17:31.05`	`guaqua`	`it might work if it wasn't mechanical`
`17:31.12`	`theholyduck`	`whats the volt on the usb port again`
`17:31.15`	`theholyduck`	`i forgot`
`17:31.15`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`17:31.36`	`theholyduck`	`it can deliver like 1 amp's or somthing`
`17:31.36`	`SpeedEvil`	`Consider that your arm weighs 2Kg or so, the weight in the charger 20g, that's 1% of the weight that you're shaking that's active.`
`17:31.46`	`*** join/#openmoko dwery (n=dwery@nslu2-linux/dwery)`
`17:31.56`	`Elrond`	`5V`
`17:31.58`	`peeps`	`here's the scenario, you are stuck on a desert island with no electricity for a year. you need to use linux during that time, what do you do. :p`
`17:32.03`	`SpeedEvil`	`Then if you get a quarter of the power out, you're down to .2%, not great.`
`17:32.08`	`Elrond`	`theholyduck - 5V, 0.5A.`
`17:32.13`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`17:32.16`	`theholyduck`	`i forgot`
`17:32.24`	`theholyduck`	`0.5 amp's aint too bad`
`17:32.29`	`SpeedEvil`	`A small solar cell - 10cm^2 or so would work.`
`17:32.30`	`theholyduck`	`its enough to kill me`
`17:32.34`	`theholyduck`	`theoreticaly`
`17:32.42`	`SpeedEvil`	`10cm*10cm rather`
`17:33.02`	`theholyduck`	`but then again the human body is pretty weak`
`17:33.24`	`peeps`	`hmm, opendefibrilators?`
`17:33.51`	`Elrond`	`peeps - G Someone already suggested OpenSatelites ;)`
`17:33.51`	`theholyduck`	`i was playing around at school the other day. with the isolation resistance measurer (best translation i could think of)`
`17:34.17`	`SpeedEvil`	`theholyduck: megger is the UK term I think.`
`17:34.23`	`theholyduck`	`we just call it megger too`
`17:34.26`	`theholyduck`	`but it has a real name`
`17:34.27`	`SpeedEvil`	`If it's meant to check electrical equipment.`
`17:34.31`	`theholyduck`	`yeh`
`17:34.35`	`theholyduck`	`mega ohm's`
`17:34.38`	`theholyduck`	`between phases`
`17:34.46`	`theholyduck`	`almost 0 amps`
`17:34.49`	`theholyduck`	`but it stings`
`17:34.52`	`theholyduck`	`on 1000 volt mode`
`17:34.53`	`theholyduck`	`;P`
`17:35.14`	`theholyduck`	`its the perfect thing to scare someone silly`
`17:35.19`	`theholyduck`	`put it on 1000volt`
`17:35.24`	`theholyduck`	`and poke theyr hand with it`
`17:35.31`	`theholyduck`	`instant reaction`
`17:35.41`	`theholyduck`	`its not dangerous though :(`
`17:35.45`	`peeps`	`quick poll, what IDE do you prefer for C, C++?`
`17:35.51`	`theholyduck`	`vim?`
`17:35.51`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`17:35.52`	`dottedmag`	`emacs :-P`
`17:35.55`	`bhima`	`emacs or XCode.`
`17:35.58`	`SpeedEvil`	`dd`
`17:36.07`	`peeps`	`anyone use GUI IDEs?`
`17:36.12`	`theholyduck`	`lalz`
`17:36.13`	`theholyduck`	`:P`
`17:36.18`	`theholyduck`	`thats shits for dykes?`
`17:36.20`	`bhima`	`XCode.`
`17:36.34`	`Elrond`	`I don't even use a X-editor.`
`17:37.39`	`Elixir-`	`Hell I use MS VS. Despite its many shortcomings it has some great features.`
`17:38.09`	`bhima`	`One professor I know uses twm as his window manager. About as far away form X as you can be, really.`
`17:38.29`	`bhima`	`I used to use X with no WM on a PDA.`
`17:38.38`	`Elrond`	`bhima - twm is on any X11. ;)`
`17:38.51`	`peeps`	`I have been using IntelliJ IDEA at work since I only do Java web dev. It's been a long time since I wrote some C`
`17:38.54`	`dottedmag`	`Elrond: not really. it is in separate package in Debian`
`17:38.59`	`Elrond`	`I used twm about 12 years ago. :-)`
`17:39.12`	`Elrond`	`dottedmag - Yeah, except debian. ;-)`
`17:39.25`	`SpeedEvil`	`with some local patches.`
`17:39.37`	`bhima`	`elixir: You won't see anybody commenting. They've just put you on /ignore. :)`
`17:39.44`	`Elrond`	`SpeedEvil - tihi... fvwm2 here. :)`
`17:40.23`	`SpeedEvil`	`I've also had the same screensaver in the background for more than a decade.`
`17:40.42`	`SpeedEvil`	`<PROTECTED>`
`17:40.43`	`SpeedEvil`	`_fade`
`17:40.57`	`dottedmag`	`peeps: in the half-a-hour you'll know everything about editor, window managers, screensavers, mouses, political optinions of the channel members :)`
`17:41.21`	`bhima`	`(does everybody here know what XCode is?)`
`17:41.39`	`dottedmag`	`bhima: ide from apple.`
`17:41.48`	`peeps`	`i just googled it, looks like it's for mac, i did not pursue furthur`
`17:41.50`	`SpeedEvil`	`Is that how apple developers tell each others sexuality?`
`17:41.51`	`Elrond`	`SpeedEvil - just tried that I would distract me too easily...`
`17:42.00`	`bhima`	`SpeedEvil: yes, it is.`
`17:42.23`	`Elrond`	`bhima - admit No, I don't know xcode.`
`17:42.45`	`bhima`	`XCode has two fairly nifty features. It can do distributed builds very easily, and it predictively tries to compile your code.`
`17:43.15`	`bhima`	`ie: if you stare at a file, and decide that it's ready to build after a bit, it'll probably ahve already compiled it.`
`17:43.46`	`Elrond`	`Is it "free as in speach"?`
`17:44.58`	`SpeedEvil`	`Or free as in spinach.`
`17:44.59`	`guaqua`	`i've used eclipse for java. been pretty happy with it.`
`17:45.00`	`bhima`	`It's "free as in you already paid for its development when you bought your mac"`
`17:45.00`	`SuN`	`Eclipse needs a QT port. It breaks all sorts of interface specifics in Linux.`
`17:45.01`	`*** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis)`
`17:45.01`	`SuN`	`Insert favorite toolkit for "QT" of course :)`
`17:45.01`	`bhima`	`I really like the extensibility of Eclipse.`
`17:45.12`	`dottedmag`	`SuN: well, it's a desktop environment by itself. just move it to the separate workspace and make fullscreen.`
`17:45.13`	`bhima`	`I made an extension to it that drew pen strokes on top of documents.`
`17:45.15`	`guaqua`	`dunno, the learning curve for eclipse wasn't too bad`
`17:45.29`	`SuN`	`dottedmag: yeah, it doesn't work like that for me :)`
`17:45.34`	`benJIman`	`<pedant>QT isn't a toolkit , it's Qt </pedant>`
`17:45.40`	`SuN`	`ANd they broke copy&paste last time I used it.`
`17:45.48`	`guaqua`	`that is annoying...`
`17:46.20`	`SuN`	`Had to rely on Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V or worse, click copy/paste, normal middle click paste didn't work.`
`17:46.21`	`bhima`	`It took about 15 lines of code, without even needing to poke at the source.`
`17:46.46`	`bhima`	`Eclipse has an immense number of hooks.`
`17:46.47`	`benJIman`	`SuN: I think it's a problem because SWT licence is incompatable wit hGPL`
`17:47.31`	`SuN`	`That shouldn't prevent them from reimplementing the behaviour in SWT though.`
`17:48.46`	`benJIman`	`swt is using gtk or motif on linux`
`17:49.18`	`*** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-43-169.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)`
`17:51.14`	`peeps`	`Anyone recommend a good C book, I know the basics, but want to refresh my memory and improve overall`
`17:51.57`	`*** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd)`
`18:05.42`	`peeps`	`sorry guess i'm going off topic, i take my further queries to ##c`
`18:16.20`	`*** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226)`
`18:29.04`	`Shoragan`	`can anyone verify that mcc works with 2.6.20.2?`
`18:29.19`	`*** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk)`
`18:30.07`	`Shoragan`	`mmc of course`
`18:32.07`	`CoreDump\|home`	`well, the one shipped w/ my neo doesn't hehe`
`18:33.53`	`*** join/#openmoko snarkyFish (n=noone@c-24-9-81-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net)`
`18:34.14`	`*** part/#openmoko snarkyFish (n=noone@c-24-9-81-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net)`
`18:36.40`	`*** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be)`
`18:41.18`	`*** join/#openmoko eikonos (n=eikonos@S01060020ed569ad7.gv.shawcable.net)`
`18:41.56`	`Shoragan`	`CoreDump, did it work with 2.6.20.1?`
`18:42.30`	`CoreDump\|home`	`I'm still running 2.6.20-moko8`
`18:43.03`	`CoreDump\|home`	`oh I misread your Q, I thought s/that/what`
`18:43.23`	`Shoragan`	`ok`
`18:50.23`	`*** join/#openmoko nonickatm (n=chatzill@168.226.104.246)`
`18:51.08`	`nonickatm`	`a question: the mass market version of the neo1973 will cost more or less than the developers one?`
`18:54.03`	`SpeedEvil`	`no answer yet`
`18:59.29`	`*** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl)`
`19:02.44`	`*** join/#openmoko vmaster_ (i=vmaster@p5B07F388.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`19:12.02`	`*** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz)`
`19:15.04`	`*** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-016.eplus-online.de)`
`19:16.06`	`*** join/#openmoko atla (n=atla@p3EE3F388.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`19:23.14`	`*** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@206.80-202-161.nextgentel.com)`
`19:23.15`	`*** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178093028.adsl.alicedsl.de)`
`19:23.24`	`woglinde`	`counte`
`19:23.27`	`woglinde`	`counter`
`19:23.27`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks 16:36:32 (21.692 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (514)`
`19:26.10`	`*** part/#openmoko den-ros (n=den@ppp85-141-253-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru)`
`19:35.32`	`thresh`	`anyone know if there would be any discounts on p2 phones for those who bought p1 ones?`
`19:36.28`	`thresh`	`s/p2/mass market/`
`19:37.03`	`LuitvD`	`thresh: i think so...`
`19:37.05`	`buz`	`possibly`
`19:37.12`	`buz`	`but no hard answerst`
`19:37.14`	`buz`	`so far`
`19:37.25`	`buz`	`supposedly that will be answered when P1 starts`
`19:37.28`	`LuitvD`	`thresh: it was mentioned more then once...`
`19:37.54`	`buz`	`LuitvD: heard anything from e28?`
`19:38.02`	`thresh`	`buz: LuitvD: thanks!`
`19:39.12`	`LuitvD`	`buz: nope`
`19:39.16`	`LuitvD`	`buz: you?`
`19:39.18`	`buz`	`me neither`
`19:39.29`	`LuitvD`	`meh`
`19:39.32`	`LuitvD`	`that sucks`
`19:39.35`	`buz`	`i dont think they want to make money`
`19:39.42`	`LuitvD`	`let's find out the CEO's mail adress`
`19:40.12`	`buz`	`well after having seen those p0 photos, i think i want VGA ;)`
`19:40.20`	`LuitvD`	`lol, i think they do, but I think they have either the wrong spamfilter, or very bad support people reading the emails`
`19:40.33`	`thresh`	`s/very bad/normal/`
`19:41.00`	`buz`	`probably use windows one care http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/100769730/article.pl`
`19:41.01`	`LuitvD`	`buz: yeah... I'm waiting for P1+ to be developed and released and bought for my birthday`
`19:41.06`	`LuitvD`	`thresh: lol, true :)`
`19:41.11`	`LuitvD`	`thresh: sad, but true`
`19:41.23`	`buz`	`i'm wondering if p1 makes it to my birthday`
`19:41.29`	`buz`	`but alas, i'm waiting for p1+ too`
`19:41.30`	`thresh`	`yeah, i worked for techsupport for couple of years so i know what i'm saying :D`
`19:41.36`	`buz`	`unless there's really a huge discount`
`19:42.24`	`LuitvD`	`buz: when's yours?`
`19:42.31`	`buz`	`11th april`
`19:42.32`	`LuitvD`	`mine is on august 1st :)`
`19:42.54`	`LuitvD`	`i think P1+ will make it for august...`
`19:43.04`	`buz`	`i hope so`
`19:43.14`	`LuitvD`	`lol`
`19:43.26`	`buz`	`i dont believe june until i see it`
`19:43.35`	`buz`	`in my hand`
`19:43.36`	`LuitvD`	`i really hope so... I'd love to have (part of) that P1+ neo for my birthday`
`19:43.52`	`LuitvD`	`P1+ in july is fine with me :P`
`19:43.58`	`buz`	`no word on specs so far right`
`19:44.05`	`LuitvD`	`as long as it's features rock, july is fine`
`19:44.12`	`LuitvD`	`hell, even august would be fine`
`19:44.18`	`buz`	`yeah but if they dont, i woudl rather buy p1`
`19:45.55`	`buz`	`if there's neither cam nor wifi i might just as well get p1`
`19:47.00`	`LuitvD`	`if neither cam nor wifi, I'll still get p1+`
`19:47.21`	`LuitvD`	`it'll have a 'hardware refresh' for sure... and I'd love some more power in that beasty`
`19:47.29`	`DesktopMa`	`I'd rather have 2d accel than wifi or cam. powered usb can take care of both cam and wifi`
`19:47.39`	`LuitvD`	`lol`
`19:47.39`	`thresh`	`camera would be just fine to organize streaming from phone`
`19:47.46`	`buz`	`2d accel is not gonna happen`
`19:47.54`	`DesktopMa`	`sure it is. in this phone, or another one`
`19:48.00`	`DesktopMa`	`but face it, the cpu is busy, damn busy`
`19:48.07`	`buz`	`not for p1+ anyway`
`19:48.17`	`buz`	`iirc sean said so himself`
`19:48.19`	`DesktopMa`	`yeah`
`19:48.32`	`DesktopMa`	`640*480 software blitter and lcd refresh, gets ugly fast`
`19:49.10`	`*** join/#openmoko oskude (n=osku@dslb-084-058-242-159.pools.arcor-ip.net)`
`19:49.15`	`buz`	`i would hope there's dedicated hardware for the refreshing???`
`19:49.30`	`DesktopMa`	`you'd wish.`
`19:50.12`	`*** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@dsl-62-220-14-162.berlikomm.net)`
`19:50.13`	`buz`	`maybe actually go for an 18bit controller this time to actually use the screen ;)`
`19:50.24`	`zecke`	`hey`
`19:50.40`	`DesktopMa`	`low end nvidia portable does 640*480, dedicated refresh, decoding of jpg and other juicy stuff. once can dream :P`
`19:50.47`	`DesktopMa`	`*one`
`19:51.11`	`*** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84.122.65.39.dyn.user.ono.com)`
`19:51.22`	`buz`	`i still rather get wifi ;)`
`19:51.31`	`DesktopMa`	`the 6100 has wifi frontend`
`19:51.34`	`buz`	`or the imx31`
`19:51.43`	`DesktopMa`	`the nvidia 6100 that is`
`19:52.00`	`buz`	`i've given up on nvidia`
`19:52.08`	`DesktopMa`	`it also has hardware mpeg4, h264 and vc1`
`19:52.08`	`DesktopMa`	`hehe`
`19:52.14`	`buz`	`6 months after aiglx release they STILL havent got working drivers`
`19:52.26`	`LuitvD`	`:P`
`19:52.40`	`DesktopMa`	`Fully integrated, high quality analog audio subsystem`
`19:53.17`	`thresh`	`is it open?`
`19:53.37`	`DesktopMa`	`it has linux drivers, but dunno how open that actually is`
`19:53.39`	`thresh`	`i think the answer is clear anyway`
`19:54.14`	`DesktopMa`	`I wouldn't cry if I needed binary packages for gfx. (I do that on desktop anyway)`
`19:54.19`	`DesktopMa`	`but I guess some purists might :P`
`19:55.36`	`Elrond`	`counter`
`19:55.37`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks 16:04:23 (21.670 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (515)`
`19:56.03`	`DesktopMa`	`phone with programmable pixel shaders = awesome`
`19:56.04`	`DesktopMa`	`:)`
`19:56.10`	`Elrond`	`DesktopMa - I'm very pissed by binary drivers.`
`19:56.15`	`buz`	`yeah me too`
`19:56.21`	`buz`	`i used to think its not that big of a deal`
`19:56.24`	`DesktopMa`	`may I ask why?`
`19:56.26`	`buz`	`but if nvidia doesnt fix their bugs it is`
`19:56.27`	`thresh`	`yeah, really`
`19:56.40`	`Elrond`	`buz has one example.`
`19:56.55`	`buz`	`for me it's not at all ideological`
`19:56.57`	`DesktopMa`	`you're free to continue the pixel poking legacy :P`
`19:57.08`	`buz`	`actually i'm not`
`19:57.16`	`buz`	`because nvidia doesnt fix their damned driver`
`19:57.19`	`Elrond`	`My example: I used to have token ring at home. Guess what the cool company did? Right. they did not forward port their drivers to any kernel >= 2.4.17`
`19:57.28`	`Elrond`	`s/2.4.17/2.2.17/`
`19:57.34`	`buz`	`aiglx works splendidly on ati and intel`
`19:57.36`	`buz`	`just not nvidia`
`19:58.33`	`buz`	`i think we'll probably see s3c244X in p1+`
`19:58.34`	`thresh`	`intel ftw`
`19:59.14`	`*** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@65-78-28-38.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)`
`19:59.16`	`Elrond`	`For me it's partly ideological.`
`19:59.26`	`DesktopMa`	`don't really care what accelerator it gets, but imo it really needs one`
`19:59.35`	`DesktopMa`	`mom sounds like a cat`
`19:59.38`	`DesktopMa`	`freaks me out O_o`
`20:00.40`	`buz`	`oh please please give me pin headers for the CF controller of the s3c2443 ;)`
`20:00.49`	`Elrond`	`Other example: I was considering buying a garmin handheld gps. Their hardware is great. The firmware is mostly okay. But they piss at customers. Especialy those, that want better linux support.`
`20:01.06`	`*** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=loufoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net)`
`20:03.05`	`Elrond`	`What's imx31?`
`20:04.07`	`LuitvD`	`some media processor`
`20:04.09`	`*** join/#openmoko koen\|lisboa (n=koen@201.38.11.131)`
`20:04.09`	`LuitvD`	`i guess...`
`20:04.43`	`LuitvD`	`from freescale`
`20:05.23`	`buz`	`http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX31&webpageId=M0ylsZrDR`
`20:05.39`	`buz`	`woah neat prices on the page`
`20:05.50`	`LuitvD`	`arm based ofcourse :)`
`20:06.11`	`buz`	`17.67USD each for 1000+ imx31`
`20:07.56`	`LuitvD`	`they only supply a 108-page datasheet...`
`20:08.39`	`buz`	`thats orders of magnitude better than TI`
`20:08.55`	`LuitvD`	`:)`
`20:08.56`	`LuitvD`	`yeah`
`20:09.17`	`LuitvD`	`but even my Microchip PIC18F4331 datasheet is 3-times that size`
`20:09.26`	`*** join/#openmoko jkx1 (n=jkx@86.72.182.29)`
`20:09.40`	`LuitvD`	`(still need a printed version of that... I hate reading pdf files..)`
`20:10.05`	`LuitvD`	`s/reading pdf files/having only one display/`
`20:10.06`	`LuitvD`	`:P`
`20:10.08`	`Elrond`	`LuitvD - printers have been invented decades ago. ;o)`
`20:10.35`	`LuitvD`	`Elrond: I don't want to print 300 pages on my home laser printer...`
`20:10.46`	`LuitvD`	`400 actually...`
`20:10.52`	`buz`	`thats usually still cheaper than buying the book`
`20:10.59`	`LuitvD`	`the PIC18F4331 datasheet is 396 pages long :)`
`20:11.03`	`*** join/#openmoko koen\|recife_ (n=koen@vpn006062.vpn.utwente.nl)`
`20:11.08`	`LuitvD`	`buz: not sure...`
`20:15.24`	`buz`	`http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MCIMX31RM.pdf theres the BIG one`
`20:15.30`	`LuitvD`	`...`
`20:15.53`	`LuitvD`	`the 108 page one?`
`20:16.00`	`buz`	`no the 14mb one`
`20:16.05`	`LuitvD`	`XD`
`20:16.06`	`buz`	`not sure how many pages yet`
`20:16.26`	`LuitvD`	`2364`
`20:16.29`	`LuitvD`	`:\|`
`20:16.31`	`LuitvD`	`damn`
`20:16.33`	`LuitvD`	`that's nice`
`20:16.37`	`buz`	`yeah`
`20:17.14`	`buz`	`so much for no docs ;)`
`20:17.32`	`cbpage`	`wow`
`20:17.36`	`LuitvD`	`lol`
`20:17.56`	`LuitvD`	`i'd love a print-out version of that one :) + a dev board for that`
`20:18.23`	`buz`	`lol you can even download wince for the dev board`
`20:18.34`	`buz`	`even wince6`
`20:18.45`	`LuitvD`	`46 chapters :D`
`20:19.32`	`*** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-110-179.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)`
`20:21.00`	`LuitvD`	`hmm... that reference manual is awefully similar to pic-chip datasheets`
`20:21.22`	`LuitvD`	`and the chip works amazingly similar to the pic chips too :)`
`20:21.31`	`buz`	`somehow i doubt that`
`20:21.49`	`LuitvD`	`damn, scanning the datasheet and being able to understand 75% of the content is cool :D`
`20:22.24`	`LuitvD`	`being able to read Microchip datasheets took a while... I can read those now, and I can read this one :D`
`20:22.40`	`buz`	`usually when i scan math stuff i understand 80%`
`20:22.48`	`buz`	`only when i ACTUALLY read it, trouble starts`
`20:23.37`	`LuitvD`	`hehehe`
`20:24.12`	`LuitvD`	`buz: my scanning is going to the pages about features I haven't seen in PIC datasheets yet, and starting to read a page or two there`
`20:24.16`	`LuitvD`	`and going to the next`
`20:24.20`	`LuitvD`	`:)`
`20:24.44`	`LuitvD`	`the pages about PWM are below my knowledge level :)`
`20:25.23`	`LuitvD`	`so are pages about Inter-Intergrated Communication, SPI, SDHostController, etc.`
`20:25.55`	`LuitvD`	`getting those things running on a PIC chips is harder then using them on an ARM based solution`
`20:26.53`	`LuitvD`	`writing software for my robot forced me to completely read certain chapters of the 400-page datasheet over and over again`
`20:27.14`	`LuitvD`	`especially interrupts, PWM and ADC`
`20:27.24`	`balrog-kun`	`lucky you, the OMAP SoC reference manual is a 1322 pages pdf`
`20:28.09`	`balrog-kun`	`generally texas instruments datasheets are a bit bloated (and exact)`
`20:28.12`	`balrog-kun`	`samsung datasheets are a bit more to the point`
`20:28.13`	`*** join/#openmoko technil (n=technil@c-75-68-237-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)`
`20:28.35`	`technil`	`hello there`
`20:30.09`	`technil`	`anyone know about setting your $OMDIR for MokoMakeFile ?`
`20:30.09`	`aloril`	`technil: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`20:31.08`	`technil`	`I'm planning on using a partition on an external Disk for OM...`
`20:35.05`	`*** join/#openmoko koen\|recife__ (n=koen@201.38.11.131)`
`20:49.00`	`*** join/#openmoko jikuty (i=em@CPE001195752c87-CM00111ade8af2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`20:49.06`	`*** part/#openmoko jikuty (i=em@CPE001195752c87-CM00111ade8af2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`20:57.20`	`*** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.101.192.70)`
`21:04.24`	`*** join/#openmoko xyrouz (n=xyrouz@62.79.112.57.dhcp.ro.tiscali.dk)`
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`21:33.43`	`Shoragan`	`does anyone have some time to repeat my tests (http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245#c9)`
`21:34.05`	`Shoragan`	`it's about the crash when doing lots of io`
`21:36.06`	`*** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com)`
`21:36.55`	`balrog-kun`	`i tried it on a similar machine (not a Neo) with the same kernel (image from buildhost.openmoko.org) and couldn't reproduce the crash`
`21:37.47`	`bhima`	`My older iPaq h5555 has a space in the back that precisely fits a SIM card. But they never made a version in that form factor with a GSM modem.`
`21:39.35`	`Shoragan`	`balrog-kun, i think it's a low-level problem with the neos`
`21:40.49`	`SpeedEvil`	`I really hope you're wrong.`
`21:41.53`	`SpeedEvil`	`OTOH - it could be a trivial fix - capacitor on the second RAMchip, but it could delay P1.`
`21:43.32`	`balrog-kun`	`yea, but finding the cause is probably non-trivial at all if it's hardware`
`21:43.45`	`Shoragan`	`there is one on the debug board`
`21:43.59`	`CoreDump\|home`	`balrog-kun: I have confidence in FICs hardware gurus =)`
`21:44.43`	`Shoragan`	`perhaps it's just some misconfiguration in the bootloader`
`21:44.44`	`*** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB7642A.ipt.aol.com)`
`21:45.13`	`CoreDump\|home`	`then update u-boot =D`
`21:45.26`	`CoreDump\|home`	`but only if you have the debug board...`
`21:45.35`	`Shoragan`	`i've got the current u-boot`
`21:45.55`	`balrog-kun`	`thinking of it a "normal" phone (as opposed to something that can run a shell and a terminal) probably never does any such amounts of io`
`21:45.57`	`Shoragan`	`but i don't know enough about the memory setup`
`21:50.41`	`CoreDump\|home`	`how does one go about suggested distro changes? Change it in OE and submit bugs?`
`21:50.48`	`SpeedEvil`	`Finding a reproducable bug is _much_ easier than a random bug.`
`21:50.53`	`SpeedEvil`	`So that's a really good thing.`
`21:51.24`	`SpeedEvil`	`(Re the hardware)`
`22:03.54`	`*** join/#openmoko lmveloso_ (n=lmveloso@201-35-50-174.mganm702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br)`
`22:04.27`	`*** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@88.134.99.50)`
`22:04.40`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1316 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (9 files in 2 dirs):`
`22:04.40`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * include stdio from talloc.h`
`22:04.41`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * add new generic extended-response parser`
`22:04.41`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * add operator cache, using ext-resp-parser`
`22:04.41`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * add proper detection of supported %CPI modes and select highest available one`
`22:04.41`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * add %CTZV to vendor_ti init string`
`22:07.27`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1317 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c:`
`22:07.27`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * add CTZV stub`
`22:07.27`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * dont escape % sign in non-format strings`
`22:11.27`	`Elrond`	`hmmm.... samba3 code in openmoko.... hmmm`
`22:16.19`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: good question. how do we handle things that are checked into OE, but not taken up by OM? That's what I meant by OE .dev being a temporary fork at the moment.`
`22:16.43`	`CoreDump\|home`	`I created a bugreport`
`22:17.10`	`rwhitby`	`yep, but in the general case, what would you do if they marked the bugreport as wontfix?`
`22:20.27`	`*** join/#openmoko koen\|recife__ (n=koen@201.38.11.131)`
`22:20.37`	`Elrond`	`Hi koen\|recife__`
`22:21.56`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: wait unti they merged with .dev and recommit =)`
`22:22.33`	`koen\|recife`	`hey Elrond`
`22:22.56`	`rwhitby`	`heh - I expect that's one reason why a commercial company may not merge :-)`
`22:23.05`	`Elrond`	`koen\|recife - What does recife mean?`
`22:23.41`	`CoreDump\|home`	`rwhitby: well, we can always fork and roll our own distro based on OM`
`22:24.10`	`rwhitby`	`Elrond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recife I expect.`
`22:25.11`	`rwhitby`	`CoreDump\|home: and hopefully call it something other than OpenMoko. (I'm still a bit uncomfortable with DISTRO=openmoko in oe .dev before the merge)`
`22:25.57`	`Elrond`	`rwhitby - Ahh.`
`22:25.58`	`CoreDump\|home`	`right`
`22:26.40`	`rwhitby`	`(uncomfortable with it possibly being confused with the real openmoko and have different functionality, as it does right now with your latest commit, rather than it being there which is good preparation for the merge)`
`22:27.07`	`rwhitby`	`but then you can say the same about MokoMakefile and it's 2 or 3 patches.`
`22:28.18`	`rwhitby`	`with the exception that MokoMakefile is defined as following the official openmoko devs wishes. I'm not sure that OE .dev DISTRO=openmoko has made the same guarantee ...`
`22:28.24`	`CM`	`Commits from LaF0rge at 23.04 on a saturday.. Sure hope he won't burn out`
`22:29.50`	`*** join/#openmoko technil_ (n=technil@c-75-68-237-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)`
`22:30.27`	`pH5`	`CM: likewise. but it's great to see gsmd moving finally.`
`22:31.14`	`CM`	`pH5: For sure, but I'm just a tiny bit worried since a lot on this whole project depends on him and I'm sure he feels the pressure`
`22:31.31`	`Elrond`	`CM - Yeah...`
`22:31.58`	`CM`	`As long as he's not feeling too stressed I'm sure it's ok. :)`
`22:32.03`	`*** join/#openmoko xyrouz (n=xyrouz@62.79.112.57.dhcp.ro.tiscali.dk)`
`22:32.30`	`Elrond`	`Yeah.`
`22:32.42`	`Elrond`	`talloc is quite bloated for an embedded project...`
`22:32.45`	`CM`	`LaF0rge: Don't burn out please! If you need a break, for a day or two, take it. :)`
`22:35.56`	`*** join/#openmoko rob_w\|tablet (n=bob@p213.54.162.122.tisdip.tiscali.de)`
`22:41.39`	`SpeedEvil`	`Or even three!`
`22:42.00`	`CM`	`Hehe`
`22:42.12`	`Elrond`	`giggle`
`22:42.21`	`Elrond`	`Don't count till five? ;o)`
`22:42.27`	`rwhitby`	`927 MokoMakefile unique IP downloads. wonder when it will hit the 1K mark.`
`22:42.39`	`*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)`
`22:42.45`	`*** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net)`
`22:42.56`	`SpeedEvil`	`I just need to reinstall my OS, and arrange my hard disks, then ...`
`22:42.59`	`Elrond`	`rwhitby - What will the 1k-downloader get? ;o)`
`22:42.59`	`CM`	`rwhitby: I just updated, starting a new build now`
`22:43.29`	`rwhitby`	`Elrond: as many copies of MokoMakefile as they want, to share with their friends.`
`22:43.59`	`rwhitby`	`and maybe a mention on the mailing list :-) but I will only be able to give the IP address, not a name.`
`22:44.01`	`CM`	`rwhitby: It has always failed on db3-native so far, but that's an amd64 issue.. Hopefully fixed when they sync OM and OE..`
`22:44.23`	`rwhitby`	`CM: MokoMakefile builds from latest OE (overlaid with latest OM) right now.`
`22:44.47`	`CM`	`Aha, nice.. It's parsing the bitbake files now and I'll let it run over night`
`22:45.54`	`*** join/#openmoko MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@20150162212.user.veloxzone.com.br)`
`22:46.35`	`*** join/#openmoko NatureTM (n=theking@unaffiliated/naturetm)`
`22:46.46`	`Elrond`	`rwhitby - Hmm. non-1k downloaders don't get enough copies for friends? ;o)`
`22:46.55`	`rob_w\|tablet`	`what about the builds ??`
`22:47.47`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1318 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (3 files in 2 dirs): * add 2.6.20.2 kernel`
`22:47.53`	`rwhitby`	`rob_w\|tablet: which builds?`
`22:48.06`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1319 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: add dbench, bonnie++ and memtester to debug image`
`22:48.06`	`rob_w\|tablet`	`where does oenmoko keep snapshot builds`
`22:48.15`	`SpeedEvil`	`Estimated build time for the whole tree on a Duron 1300, with a slow disk?`
`22:48.16`	`rwhitby`	`buildhost and buildhost-old`
`22:49.28`	`CM`	`SpeedEvil: Maybe we should add some buildtime examples on the wiki for different machines?`
`22:49.44`	`rwhitby`	`SpeedEvil: dunno - it's overnight for a full rebuild of everything (including toolchain) here on a Dell Inspiron 9400 running Debian Etch in vmware.`
`22:50.54`	`SpeedEvil`	`Not unreasonable.`
`22:51.04`	`rob_w\|tablet`	`ah thanks`
`22:51.32`	`SpeedEvil`	`On the RAM problem.`
`22:51.38`	`SpeedEvil`	`What about booting with RAM=64M`
`22:51.50`	`SpeedEvil`	`or whatever the flag is, then trying to crash it`
`22:53.07`	`rob_w\|tablet`	`rwhitby, its empty to the public`
`22:53.16`	`thresh`	`mem=64M`
`22:53.46`	`rwhitby`	`rob_w\|tablet: http://buildhost-old.openmoko.org/snapshots/gta01-20070301/tmp/deploy/images for instance`
`22:54.14`	`rwhitby`	`or http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ for latest`
`22:54.44`	`rob_w\|tablet`	`ah , great`
`22:55.39`	`Elrond`	`rwhitby - Can you put that somewhere on the wiki?`
`23:01.22`	`*** join/#openmoko hellfire_ (n=chatzill@201.255.94.75)`
`23:02.14`	`rwhitby`	`Elrond: added to main page under Project Resources`
`23:02.15`	`*** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@c83-252-110-201.bredband.comhem.se)`
`23:06.49`	`*** join/#openmoko Moo^^^ (i=snaapy@kapsi.fi)`
`23:06.52`	`Elrond`	`rwhitby - Thanks. :-)`
`23:07.23`	`Elrond`	`Does ipkg support package signatures?`
`23:07.41`	`Elrond`	`counter`
`23:07.42`	`aloril`	`http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks 12:52:18 (21.536 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (516)`
`23:08.46`	`*** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net)`
`23:09.32`	`*** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.101.192.70)`
`23:11.42`	`*** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net)`
`23:13.12`	`*** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@20150192094.user.veloxzone.com.br)`
`23:13.42`	`*** join/#openmoko NatureTM (n=theking@unaffiliated/naturetm)`
`23:14.34`	`*** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-110-179.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)`
`23:19.39`	`Moo^^^`	`hi. we are two developers in oulu, finland and just noticed openmoko.`
`23:19.45`	`Moo^^^`	`we are very interested in the project`
`23:19.56`	`CM`	`You are not alone in that ;)`
`23:20.08`	`Moo^^^`	`this is something like sweet dream for me`
`23:20.21`	`Moo^^^`	`I worked for similiar device for MyOrigo few years ago`
`23:20.27`	`CM`	`A tip, I think there is a #openmoko-fi channel`
`23:20.50`	`Moo^^^`	`ah`
`23:20.53`	`Moo^^^`	`http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=547`
`23:20.53`	`aloril`	`Moo^^^: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)`
`23:20.57`	`Moo^^^`	`looks similar :)`
`23:21.29`	`CM`	`Yes, it's been discussed here before`
`23:23.05`	`CM`	`Moo^^^: Hyv�� y�t� ;)`
`23:23.51`	`CM`	`(I had a gf in Tampere a few years ago)`
`23:25.39`	`rwhitby`	`LaF0rge: is this expected?`
`23:25.41`	`rwhitby`	`ERROR: compute_revisions() not supported by this fetcher: <class\`
`23:25.42`	`rwhitby`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:25.42`	`rwhitby`	`ERROR: compute_revisions() not supported by this fetcher: <class 'bb.fetch.wget.Wget'>`
`23:25.58`	`rwhitby`	`(with bitbake patch, applied to bitbake 1.6 branch head)`
`23:29.23`	`rwhitby`	`zecke: have you tried that bitbake patch? (http://people.openmoko.org/henryk/bitbake-1.6.6-om3.patch) Did you get the same errors?`
`23:31.01`	`*** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-110-179.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)`
`23:32.20`	`zecke`	`rwhitby: me and richard read that patch`
`23:32.44`	`*** join/#openmoko grgehunt (n=greg@88-108-110-179.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)`
`23:32.45`	`zecke`	`rwhitby: these errors are expected. wget and local filesystem normally don't offer revision info`
`23:32.59`	`rwhitby`	`ERROR is a bit harsh for them then, isn't it?`
`23:33.34`	`zecke`	`rwhitby: yes, a bit :)`
`23:33.38`	`rwhitby`	`(maybe I'll add a dummy compute_revisions to the other fetchers in a MokoMakefile patch to get rid of it)`
`23:33.51`	`zecke`	`rwhitby: and this comes from the base.bbclass of OpenMoko's oe overlay`
`23:34.21`	`zecke`	`rwhitby: or silent base.bbclass :)`
`23:34.55`	`rwhitby`	`I just changed it to a bb.warn`
`23:36.56`	`rwhitby`	`I'm adding support for this to MokoMakefile now, and don't want to scare the users.`
`23:38.33`	`*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)`
`23:41.16`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1320 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch:`
`23:41.16`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: * Make sure ADDR26/GPA11 is configured as address pin, not as GPIO`
`23:41.17`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: This should fix all kinds of system instability problems, since it meant as`
`23:41.17`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: soon as memory > 64MB is used, memory corruption will occur.`
`23:42.12`	`Elrond`	`Is "Sjf2410-linux" still the way of doing things? I heard somewhere, that it's "oudated"?`
`23:42.51`	`SpeedEvil`	`:) Not hardware - sounds like`
`23:42.52`	`balrog-kun`	`oh!, that's the fix, probably`
`23:43.06`	`Elrond`	`Yes, sounds like an important fix.`
`23:43.32`	`CIA-7`	`openmoko: 03laforge * r1321 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: increase to moko6 to have a clear indication of the 64MB memory fix`
`23:54.56`	`*** join/#openmoko wildfire (n=wildfire@203.7.227.146)`

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