irclog2html for #openmoko on 20070308

00:04.43*** join/#openmoko pavelm (i=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz)
00:05.11pavelmhello, everyone
00:05.18stefan_schmidthi pavelm
00:05.19pavelmmy openmoko arrived...
00:05.30SpeedEvil:)
00:05.31stefan_schmidtpavelm: congrats
00:05.36pavelm...so the question is -- how to get some phone software on it :-)
00:05.55pavelmstefan: Thanks. It also arrived amazingly fast.
00:06.11SpeedEvilThe dialer at the moment is a bit broken.
00:06.15SpeedEvilAs is GPRS.
00:06.15CoreDump|homeflorian: hows your flash going?
00:06.23pavelmI guess I'm not yet ready to do full openmoko build...
00:06.23stefan_schmidtpavelm: yeah, two days more or less worldwide is neat
00:06.42pavelmstefan: it took them way more than that for olpc.
00:07.19pavelmis there binary image one can flash available somewhere?
00:07.46stefan_schmidtpavelm: GSM is a bit problematic atm.
00:08.18florianhi pavelm
00:08.23stefan_schmidtYou can manually drive it atm. Sound is still somewhat broken
00:08.25pavelmHi, florian
00:08.35stefan_schmidtpavelm: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM
00:08.58florianCoreDump|home: bad, for some reason the oe built jffs2 image is broken. i get filesystem errors after mounting
00:08.58pavelmstefan: Should I try to get my text-based-GSM (tui.sf.net) running on openmoko?
00:09.12CoreDump|homeflorian: that is to be expected
00:09.28florianCoreDump|home: did i miss another errata?
00:09.30stefan_schmidtpavelm: You can, but this don't help you with the sound. :)
00:09.33CoreDump|homehttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Phase_0#Workaround
00:10.11CoreDump|homeflorian: ideally someone would patch image generation in OE =)
00:10.30pavelmAccording to Manually_using_GSM ...  I should just issue ATD and it should call...?
00:10.42pavelmOr is there some mixer setup neccessary?
00:10.47stefan_schmidtpavelm: Yes, ringing works fine.
00:11.12stefan_schmidtpavelm: there are alsa state files in /etc/alsa you can play with them
00:11.15florianCoreDump|home: indeed, i don't think padding hurts anyway
00:11.27CoreDump|homeright
00:11.34CoreDump|homeslightly larger images
00:12.03stefan_schmidtpavelm: This stuff should be worked out in the next days. Hopefully
00:12.04rohpavelm beware.. this device has a awfull amout of mixer elements ;)
00:12.14*** join/#openmoko Guest329 (n=Guest329@evr91-1-82-230-214-164.fbx.proxad.net)
00:13.04pavelmstefan: ok, I guess I'll wait.
00:13.38stefan_schmidtpavelm: Give us some days or a week and I can tell you more. :)
00:14.59pavelmis gps capable of working in simple (not assisted) mode without additional software?
00:15.13pavelmCan I just cat ttyS1 (or how is it called) and get nmea?
00:15.33SpeedEvilLook on AGPS
00:15.35SpeedEvilbriefly - no
00:15.43SpeedEviland the GPS daemon bit isn't there
00:15.50SpeedEvilthe GPS hardware is _dumb_
00:15.54pavelmspeed: aha, ok.
00:15.57SpeedEvilit outputs satellite dopplers
00:16.02SpeedEvilwe 'cook' the data
00:16.13pavelmspeed; Hmm, there's opensourcegps project somewhere.
00:16.19pavelm...that should be able to cook the data ;-).
00:16.36pavelm...I thought that it being connected over serial means some hope.
00:16.39SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS
00:16.53SpeedEvilThe chipset doesn't output anything standard.
00:16.59SpeedEvilit's an undocumented binary format
00:17.06SpeedEviland at the moment there is nothing to strace
00:17.08rohpavelm it does.. else it would be spi and more complicated to access from userspace ;)
00:17.27pavelmtoo bad. At least it is not connected by 1024 registers and doing DMA...
00:17.28SpeedEvilit should be quite possible eventually to strace the supplied gps daemon, and reverse enginer from that.
00:17.55SpeedEvilJust turning the power on and listening doesn't produce anything apparently.
00:18.33SpeedEvilHowever, on the upside.
00:18.54SpeedEvilThe satelltie format is well known. And the hardware is dumb enough that it's not doing encryption or anything.
00:20.07*** part/#openmoko t0nY|bot (i=t0nY@61-230-75-67.dynamic.hinet.net)
00:20.28pavelmYes.
00:21.10pavelmBasically satelittes send binary data (documented) at 50bps, and important part is the timing between different sattelites.
00:21.16pavelm...so it should be reasonably easy to decipher.
00:21.25SpeedEvilThere are fun possibilities.
00:21.26pavelm...still writing good gps software is likely going to be tricky.
00:21.41SpeedEvilGenerate DGPS from stationary recievers in the area (neos on charge)
00:22.18SpeedEvilP2P DGPS - download a couple of hundred bytes of DGPS info, and you've got +-0.3m or so accuracy for a minute or two.
00:23.24*** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou)
00:23.51pavelmspeed: p2p dgps is _evil_.
00:23.58SpeedEvilWhy?
00:24.12pavelmspeed: I meant it is good idea.
00:24.15SpeedEviloh
00:24.16SpeedEvil:)
00:24.31SpeedEvilThere are DGPS transmitters in the states, but we can't recieve them.
00:24.37pavelmspeed: But I do not think it will work. ... you usually charge indoors where signal is poor.
00:24.58SpeedEvilTrue - it only takes one phone with a signal within 100km or so though.
00:24.58pavelmspeed: and you'd need to know position of neo being charged down to centimeters.
00:25.14SpeedEvilNot really - only that it's stationary, to get most of the benefit.
00:25.40CoreDump|homeGTA01Bv3#  nand erase.jffs2 rootfs <- doesn't work for me. s/.jffs2// is ok
00:25.41*** join/#openmoko ronocdh (n=ronocdh@n2-50-62.dhcp.drexel.edu)
00:26.07SpeedEvilEspecially if it's got a good signal. If it's got only a few satellites, then no it won't work well. But if it can see them all, it can get good reports on per-satellite errors.
00:26.10ronocdhhey all, is there a tentative release date for the OpenMoko? I wasn't able to find any such information on the website
00:26.10alorilronocdh: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
00:26.23SpeedEvilEnd of the month
00:26.43woglindebrave aloril
00:26.47woglinde*g*
00:26.47CoreDump|homefor developers
00:27.07SpeedEvilIt'll be in a basic state at that time - a working phone, nothing more
00:27.09ronocdhman I love irc bots
00:27.20woglindecounter
00:27.21alorilP0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412593301/ P1: 3 weeks, 3 days 11:32:39 (24.481 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (498)
00:28.31CoreDump|homeOE's deploy_dir_image really needs some cleaning up for OM
00:28.44pavelmspeed: I do not think the "ammunition export" is as bad as you paint it in the wiki.
00:29.02pavelmspeed: U.S. can't arrest you for "ammunition export" you did not do _while in us_.
00:29.24pavelmspeed: so you'd better not take those agpsd sources with you to the states, but otherwise you should be okay.
00:29.26SpeedEvilThey can.
00:29.37pavelmspeed: plus source code is free speech, as PGP case shown.
00:29.55SpeedEvilI mean, if the company is held to be accountable for importing such stuff, then they can hold owners of that company responsible.
00:30.19pavelmspeed: _Importing_ to U.S. is okay. You may not export it _from_  U.S.
00:30.20CoreDump|homeflorian: w00t, the kernel and image boots =D
00:30.40pavelmspeed: so you need to be careful not to re-export it from u.s.
00:30.49cjbpavelm: putting it online is exporting it from the US.
00:30.56SpeedEvilSource code is free speech, but I'd _really_ want to get a legal opinion stating that ITAR does not apply to a open-source GPS, without the limits.
00:31.14pavelmcjb: putting it online on _US_ server.
00:31.17cjbSpeedEvil: Debian believe that ITAR applies to their code.  (And so they send the relevant notifications of export for each package.)
00:31.19SpeedEvilOr rather, one with the inherent documented 'off' switch on those limits.
00:31.24florianCoreDump|home: cool!
00:31.29florianphoto!
00:31.34pavelmcjb: Just don't do that. That's why we have debian.non-us repositories.
00:31.40CoreDump|homeno cam :\
00:31.50SpeedEvilI'm not saying that an open source gpsd is impossible.
00:31.55CoreDump|homesomeone fubared X11.....
00:32.04SpeedEvilI'm saying that putting it on the phone without taking advice is a silly move.
00:32.06SpeedEvilfor FIC
00:32.08Clintpavelm: not anymore
00:32.21SpeedEvilnot so much for users, as they are vanishingly unlikjely to go after them.
00:32.30cjbSpeedEvil: well, all FIC has to do is send an ITAR letter.  It's no big deal.
00:32.36SpeedEvilErr - no.
00:32.42cjbIt's not a *request* to export, it's just notification that you're doing it, no?
00:32.42alphaoneCoreDump|home: Trying to build X11?
00:32.48SpeedEvilNo.
00:32.54florianCoreDump|home: hum yes, X is broken
00:32.58SpeedEvilFor restricted GPS, you have to get a DOD import license.
00:33.05CoreDump|homealphaone: trying to _use_ it ;)
00:33.10SpeedEvilOr export license.
00:33.17*** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru)
00:33.24pavelmspeed: Are you sure about _import_ license?
00:33.28alphaoneCoreDump|home: Oh
00:33.32cjboh, it's a high-accuracy GPS?
00:33.34SpeedEvilIt's import and export.
00:33.47pavelmbtw opensource gps is already done.
00:33.49pavelmhttp://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/
00:33.51CoreDump|homeroot@fic-gta01:~$ cat /etc/issue
00:33.51CoreDump|homeOpenMoKo .dev-snapshot-20070303 \n \l
00:33.55pavelm...maybe it is even u.s. server?
00:33.55CoreDump|home=)
00:34.29cjbpavelm: wow.  would that work with the moko gps?
00:34.30SpeedEvilNo, the problem - potentially is that an open source gpsd has a documented 'off' switch to the required limits (1000knots, 60000 feet) that all GPSs that come under the civillian banner are required to have.
00:34.54SpeedEvilAll civilian GPSs stop reporting position under these conditions.
00:35.24woglindeacts of terrorism hahaha
00:35.29cjbAh.  So it's a similar situation to open GSM?
00:35.30pavelm(I should take a look at cwkelley's sources if he implements the limits :-)
00:35.31SpeedEvilIf your GPS does not, then you require a DOD import license, much like you would for many other munitions.
00:35.41SpeedEvilcjb: No.
00:35.56SpeedEvilIt's just next to 'Atomic weapons test equipment", which is the next section.
00:36.10cjbcould you reread your explanation?  It doesn't make sense to me.
00:36.27pavelmspeed: It makes sense.
00:36.38pavelm(that should have been cjb: it makes sense)
00:37.00pavelmViolating GSM standards "only" has potential to make FCC looking for you.
00:37.23pavelmViolating munitions exports has potential to make CIA looking for you.
00:37.39cjbSpeedEvil: perhaps you meant "has no documented off switch" rather than "has a documented off switch"?  Sorry if I'm just not thinking clearly.
00:37.40SpeedEvilAll GPSs - that do not implement the 60000ft/1000knots limit, and stop reporting position when that limit is exceeded, are defined in that regulation as munitions.
00:37.49balrog-kunis there a power button?
00:38.00SpeedEvilI mean that the source is a documented off-switch to the limits.
00:38.01balrog-kunis it separate from the 911 button and the hold button?
00:38.02*** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@mail.planforlife.com.au)
00:38.10cjbOkay, I see.  So what's wrong with implementing that limit?
00:38.16SpeedEvilbalrog-kun: there are two buttons, '911' and 'power'.
00:38.16cjbbalrog-kun: yes.
00:38.30balrog-kunSpeedEvil: oh ok, so there's no hold button
00:38.36floriangood night
00:38.48*** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-59-67.dyn.iinet.net.au)
00:38.58pavelmcjb: doing limit in software makes it too easy to work around.
00:39.07CoreDump|homen8 koen
00:39.07SpeedEvilcjb: Nothing. The issue is would the DOD - or whoever, I forget - accept that a GPS with the limit that easy to reset is OK.
00:39.19*** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gabe@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com)
00:39.30SpeedEvilCurrent GPSs (essentially all of them) at least require you to do some reverse engineering.
00:40.22pavelmspeed: there are 7 different GPLed GPS implementations.. so I guess DoD does not have too big problems with that.
00:40.43SpeedEvilThe issue isn't the GPS software - as I read it, that's not a complete GPS.
00:40.54pavelmAnyway, I should get some sleep.
00:40.58SpeedEvilIt's importation of complete units.
00:41.11SpeedEvilAnyway, the proper place is a legal opinion.
00:41.12SpeedEvilWAve.
00:41.27pavelmspeed: Aha, ok then. FIC should not preload that software ;-).
00:41.28pavelmgood night
00:42.43cjbbut yet FIC *does* preload agpsd, right?
00:42.51SpeedEvilNo.
00:42.57SpeedEvilAnd if they did - it's closed source.
00:42.58cjbooh.  then why ship with a gps?
00:43.02cjbI know it's closed source.
00:43.33SpeedEvilClosed source is more likely to be OK IMO, as every GPS in the world (pretty much) implements the limits in a flashable blob.
00:43.57SpeedEvilSo a case against FIC would be very unlikely indeed to succeed.
00:44.12SpeedEvil(cases against users are vanishingly likely IMO)
00:44.15rohhm.. i wonder if its possible to use the gps-hw for recieving galileo if its ever going public
00:44.20SpeedEvilNo.
00:44.23SpeedEvilIt's GPS only.
00:44.51SpeedEvilWon't do GLONASS either :)
00:45.01SpeedEvilWhich is surprisingly actually getting more birds.
00:45.06guaquahaven't heard of any galileo specs yet, but i'd guess that manufacturing galileo chips would be easier
00:45.20rohSpeedEvil how can you be so shure? it uses the same frequencys and is especially thought for beeing recieved with updated gps-reciever-firmware
00:45.50guaquaor at least there would be less friction with the law enforcement cos it doesn't originate from the military world
00:46.03SpeedEvilThe chip is _dumb_.
00:46.17SpeedEvilAnd it does not say 'GPS/Gallileo' on the spec sheet.
00:46.59SpeedEvilAnd that's the sort of feature they'd put in big letters on the front.
00:47.54rohSpeedEvil its not yet deployed.. so i also woulnt
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00:49.55SpeedEvilThe receiver needed is different. And the frequency is different, and the encoding is different. It requires _considerable_ extra design effort to make a dual standard chip. And similar chips that are dual standard always mention it.
00:52.00rohSpeedEvil where did you get that information? last time i got wind from galileo there was a big discussion about frequencys and they decided to use the same ones as for gps since then the us cannot jam only one of both
00:52.24SpeedEvilLook at the signal specs on each, they are fairly different.
00:52.47SpeedEvilAnd just because they are on a similar frequency, does not mean that a reciever for one can recieve the other.
00:53.01SpeedEvilYou need to build it to be dual-standard from the outset.
00:53.31rohSpeedEvil which part is really built in? hammerhead II ?
00:55.22SpeedEvilYes, it's the hammerhead.
00:56.17balrog-kunwhen it sets the backlight intensity to 0 after some idle time, does it set it back to normal after you touch the screen, on the real device?
00:57.11balrog-kunit seems to leave it at 0 here (everything still works)
01:02.25*** join/#openmoko gw280 (n=george@vm.gwright.org.uk)
01:04.47alphaoneWhat happens when the battery is almost dead?
01:06.49alphaoneThe device keeps rebooting here...
01:07.00SpeedEvilSounds possible.
01:07.15SpeedEvilI'd try pulling the battery and seeing if it works without.
01:07.32alphaoneSpeedEvil: No
01:07.47alphaoneBut I just tried stefan_schmidt's battery and it works.
01:07.52SpeedEvil:)
01:07.57alphaoneSo don't discharge your battery...
01:09.48alphaoneThe problem persists when I attach the phone to the designated charger
01:09.52alphaone:-(
01:10.50SpeedEvilI'd just wire a 3.3V PSU onto a dummy battery.
01:16.31CoreDump|homelet it charge a bit
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01:22.04alphaoneCoreDump|home: I can't
01:22.22CoreDump|homehmm
01:23.34alphaoneAs soon as I attach the charger the Neo boots up and after some seconds the screen goes dark again
01:23.39alphaonerepeat
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01:26.57alphaoneSeems like the battery is fully drained before fastcccv can kick in
01:29.05balrog-kundo "neo1973 power-off" in u-boot if you can
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01:32.04alphaonebalrog-kun: I don't even get that far
01:32.30alphaoneThe openmoko image scrolls halfway up and then the device power cycles
01:33.16CoreDump|homeargh
01:33.17balrog-kunoh :/
01:33.23balrog-kunu-boot commandline should appear right after the logo is loaded
01:34.41alphaoneWell I jump started it with my sony ericsson
01:40.04rwhitbyI'm getting jffs2 CRC errors on boot :-(
01:40.29SpeedEvilSigh.
01:40.43SpeedEvilI wonder if that's due to loss of the factory bad block info
01:42.23cworthDrat. Looks like I let my battery drain down, and now I can't get the device to boot.
01:42.56rwhitby(especially which works on a reboot of the linux host)
01:43.25balrog-kunrwhitby: did you flash the jffs2 image from inside u-boot?
01:43.49SpeedEvilthe trivial way is probably to get a USB charger from ebay.
01:44.19SpeedEvilOne that charges the battery I mean.
01:44.28cworthWhen I plug it in I just get the vibrator buzz and openmoko logo very briefly every 7 seconds or so.
01:44.47cworthSpeedEvil: Yeah, that's what I was expecting to need. Do you know what to look for?
01:45.20alphaonecworth: Same here
01:46.08alphaonecworth: I soldered the battery on my Sony ericsson so I could charge it a little and then charge the rest via Neo
01:46.20cworthalphaone: I guess we're just the ones too stupid to plug it in and leave it there when we had it booted to Linux. :-}
01:46.29SpeedEvilSomething like http://cgi.ebay.com/2-x-Battery-BL-5C-Desktop-USB-Charger-Adapter-E60-6230i_W0QQitemZ250090995825QQcategoryZ20365QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250090995825
01:47.19alphaonecworth: Like this: http://people.openezx.org/alphaone/pics/charger.jpg
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01:53.53alphaoneCoreDump|home: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bluetooth_Support#Networking
01:54.32CoreDump|homealphaone: perfect, thanks!
01:54.36alphaoneCoreDump|home: np
01:54.52alphaoneIf something is not clear don't hesitate to ask.
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02:12.46CoreDump|homealphaone: after changing the device name, it no longer shows in any scans. any ideas?
02:13.17alphaoneCoreDump|home: You managed to scan the Neo from your laptop?
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02:13.29*** part/#openmoko snarkyFish (n=noone@c-67-176-1-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
02:13.35CoreDump|homealphaone: from another machine, yes
02:13.59alphaoneCoreDump|home: I never succeded there
02:14.00CoreDump|homeI changes the devicename in hcid.conf and now it's gone :\
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02:14.12alphaoneBut I changed the device name right away
02:14.18CoreDump|homeinteresting
02:14.22rwhitbybalrog-kun: I have not flashed anything yet - this is jffs2 dirent CRC errors on a virgin device
02:14.35CoreDump|homefwiw, the nslu2 went AWOL as well after changing the name
02:16.38alphaoneHmm, strange
02:21.18CoreDump|homerwhitby: LaF0rge has uploaded the original image files for the P0 devices =)
02:21.27CoreDump|homealphaone: omg it works =D
02:21.59CoreDump|homealphaone: sounds like a bug in bluez-utils
02:22.36alphaoneCoreDump|home: What did you do?
02:22.54alphaoneCoreDump|home: Changed back the name?
02:23.18CoreDump|homealphaone: no, I was talking about the pand connection =)
02:23.22*** join/#openmoko ping_tu (n=ping_tt2@61.185.246.242)
02:23.38alphaoneCoreDump|home: Ah, okay
02:28.04ping_turwhitby: i get Makefile, and run make setup, then prompt Applying patch preferred-openmoko-versions.patch
02:29.00ping_tupatching file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc
02:29.00ping_tuHunk #1 FAILED at 6.
02:29.01ping_tupatching file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc
02:29.01ping_tuHunk #1 FAILED at 6.
02:30.17ping_tuwhat wrong with it?
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02:33.13alphaoneGood night everyone
02:35.44aevingood night everyone.
02:37.26CoreDump|homen8 alphaone
02:37.42CoreDump|homerwhitby: automating the BT LAN gateway is going to be a bitch
02:44.59rwhitbyHmm - the neo hung during the rsync
02:45.20rwhitbyI need to wire up the reset button on the debug board to my serial controlled relay box
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02:48.23empty_mindrwhitby, you got neo ? cool
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03:15.16empty_mindopenmoko directory size is 8.7 GB after build. How can i delete unnecesssary files ? make clean return no target found
03:21.27rwhitbyempty_mind: see wiki page for rm_work
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03:28.29LINCMANevening all
03:29.47*** join/#openmoko mrlua (n=typn@unaffiliated/chairuou)
03:30.07LINCMANhello all
03:32.23LINCMANnobody speaks in here?
03:32.23alorilLINCMAN: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
03:32.38SpeedEvilQuiet at the moment.
03:32.42SpeedEvilmost are asleep
03:32.43LINCMANok
03:32.58SpeedEvilbusier earleier and later
03:33.05LINCMANI just have to say that I think this project is so great
03:33.26SpeedEvil:)
03:33.45LINCMANcan't wait to see what happens with it
03:34.01LINCMANspeed, are you one of the lucky 36?
03:34.09SpeedEvilThe wiki is a good place to wander round. Hardware has gone out to some devs, and no.
03:34.46LINCMANyea I have read it from cover to cover
03:35.15LINCMANjust thought I would tune in here to see what goes on
03:35.39rwhitbyLINCMAN: where you from?
03:35.49LINCMANLos Angeles, CA
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03:38.18LINCMANI really want to see what happens with this because I know my treo650 has several more months left in it
03:39.05LINCMANand there is no way I am going to get a treo with WM on it
03:39.33LINCMANpalmos was great but I think its dead
03:40.19rwhitbytreo650 here too
03:41.00rwhitbyI consider it the benchmark
03:42.11LINCMANI have no doubt that the open community can make something much better usining linux
03:43.19LINCMANonly thing I will miss is the keyboard
03:44.48LINCMANbut I think this concept has a much better chance of having great apps made for it
03:49.03LINCMANok well I guess if everyone is not gonna talk I guess I am out
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03:50.24alorilthere are various ideas for inputting text fast
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03:54.31LINCMANhow come nobody talks here
03:56.11alorilthere are various ideas for inputting text fast
03:56.16aloril(while you were away)
03:56.26alorilthis time of day is usually quiet though
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03:56.36LINCMANwhat time is better?
03:56.56LINCMANI guess its the middle of the night in eu
03:57.09LINCMANis most of the dev group in the eu?
03:57.14alorilabout 6AM here
03:59.13LINCMANwhere is here aloril?
04:00.34alorilLINCMAN: Finland
04:01.05aloril5AM in where many other developers in Europe live
04:01.06LINCMANaloril, what are the other input methods?
04:01.26LINCMANI am in California, US
04:01.59alorilLINCMAN: I'll collect links and paste link to link page a bit later
04:02.08LINCMANthank you
04:02.18LINCMANis it on the main .org site somewhere?
04:02.47alorilsome maybe, looking
04:02.51LINCMANdont want to have to do work that is already out there
04:04.12Readonhttp://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244
04:04.49Readonthe code is still not compilable
04:05.12LINCMANI was just curious what they were thinking for input
04:06.19Readonwould you like to change xorg version back to 7.0? i want but i don't know how....
04:06.30LINCMANreadon are you one of the lucky 36?
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04:13.21alorilCM: it was counter_msg, but now counter_set also works (ie.. now your command works):
04:13.27alorilcounter_set P0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/
04:13.27alorilaloril changed counter prefix message to P0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/
04:13.30alorilcounter
04:13.30alorilP0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/ P1: 3 weeks, 3 days 07:46:30 (24.324 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (499)
04:13.59Readonno
04:14.18Readoni just compile the openmoko myself
04:15.04alorilthis is current input method: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Input_Method
04:23.43jipicounter
04:23.43alorilP0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/ P1: 3 weeks, 3 days 07:36:16 (24.317 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (500)
04:23.50peepsalothttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#Text_input  there are these ideas too
04:24.24peepsalotsome people were talking about mini bluetooth keyboards(size of credit card) that would be another possibility
04:24.50peepsalotor regular size BT keyboard
04:25.39jipiI think the regular sized bluetooth keyboards are good. they can be folded
04:29.27peepsalotwouldn't it be cool if someone made a vmware image of a distro with all the OpenMoko development software installed and ready to go?
04:31.20peepsaloti think it would be cool, but maybe most people prefer to develop in their native OS
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04:49.52aloril(CL) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Text_Input
04:50.50peepsalotgood work aloril
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04:52.02alorilfirst section probably should have its own page + actual instructions/links to pages to get those things
04:54.51peepsalotanother option could be Morse code, to make use of that one buton we get ;-)
04:54.55alorilneed to add 2 entries to FAQ: about text input and audio routing
04:55.09alorilpeepsalot: hehe, feel free to add it
04:58.25peepsalotyeah, i sorta want to add it, but seems too silly
04:59.07peepsalotthat finger splash idea is pretty interesting.  hadn't seen that before
04:59.11alorilpeepsalot: not really, there was competition between using 2 morse code experts and 2 teenagers using mobile phones
04:59.20alorilguess who won? ;-)
04:59.59peepsalothehe, yeah but I bet the morse code experts had more hours under their belts than the teenagers on their mobile phones
05:00.33peepsalotwell, i'll add it just for the hell of it
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05:01.27alorilpeepsalot: yes, but teenagers were not newbies and they were allowed to use shortcuts too
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05:01.54alorilpeepsalot: wish list side though, because there is no software currently to support that ;-)
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05:03.48peepsalotstrange, the hardware wiki page does not seem to mention this button at all
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05:36.48aloril(CL) last two nick count records on this channel (count, date): 276 2007-03-06 23:54:54; 283 2007-03-07 (full list at http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Chat_log )
05:38.13LINCMANlots of people on not talking
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05:39.35LINCMANhow many folk in here are the lucky 36?
05:41.20LINCMANnobody?
05:41.26alorilat least 7 (and, no I'm not one)
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05:47.39LINCMANok now I know I am a geek when I get the sixfeet underbar
05:55.29LINCMANso what is the best way to follow whats goin on with the project
05:57.06pjzhang here, read the mailling lists, read the wiki
05:57.34noidd<peepsalot> another option could be Morse code, to make use of that one buton we get ;-)
05:57.40noiddthere are two buttons
05:57.54LINCMANfor data entry?
05:57.55noiddand neither are suitable for using as a key to enter morse code
05:58.03alorilseems spam bloggers have discovered openmoko, now google blog search results in many spam blog entries too
05:58.54noiddbtw, I have a P0 device in my hands right now so if anyone has any questions feel free to ask
05:59.00alorilnoidd: feeling not suitable? OK
05:59.06pjzpickboards work okay for text entry; the motoA780 uses one just fine
05:59.12peepsaloti know there is a power button, and i wasn't counting that as a button.  i heard that the "911" button could be programmd as general purpose
05:59.28noiddIt probably can, I don't know.
05:59.36alorilnoidd: run some simple benchmark so we could get feeling of speed difference between PC and Neo1973
05:59.41pjznoidd: how sturdy is it?
05:59.43noiddits not really suitable for a key tho - very stiff and completely flush to the case
05:59.56LINCMANis the little orange bar that goes around the outside changeable or is it how you order it
06:00.06LINCMANlike with a silver edge or orange
06:00.09noiddmore sturdy than my treo for sure
06:00.15pjzoh, nice
06:00.41peepsalotLINCMAN, they come in a black/silver style too, which is what i have seen shipped to most of the p0 devs
06:00.49LINCMANnoidd when the final releases that will be the re[placement for my 650
06:01.15pjzyeah, I want a black/silver one :)
06:01.46noiddI have black + silver
06:01.50pjzand I'm *trying* to get to where I can help out with the apps but I'm not familiary with OE and mokometamakefile has given me trouble
06:02.00noiddThe trim is not a seperate piece so you can't swap it per se
06:02.17LINCMANgot it!
06:02.19Readonhttp://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244
06:02.20LINCMANthanks noid
06:02.30noiddhowever, the case is easy to seperate from the device so concievably you could just swap them witha torque screwdriver in the field
06:02.44Readoni think it is a critical problem,isn't it?
06:02.52pjzis the screen inset some to try and avoid scratches?
06:02.53noiddI will make one observation and it won't make any sense until you see it
06:03.02noiddthe screen is inset - yes
06:03.10noiddby about the same amount as the treo
06:03.20pjzokay so just a little
06:03.25LINCMANthats nice
06:03.28noiddThe feeling of the platics is very different to anything I have ever felt before
06:03.39alorilnoidd: for example play and/or encode something with ogg123/oggenc ?
06:03.40pjzoh? rubbery? hard?
06:03.44noiddit feels like rubber covered in fine powder
06:03.52noiddits really strange but really REALLY cool
06:04.11pjzoh nice
06:04.32LINCMANhave you put a sim in it and made a call?
06:04.42pjzLINCMAN: no dialer yet, iirc
06:04.56noiddI have put a sim in it
06:04.58pjzand no GPRS stack either, I hear
06:05.06peepsalotaloril: i read in IRC earlier that the neo def cannot play 160kbit ogg
06:05.08noiddand it has successfully stopped my cell# going to voicemail
06:05.09rwhitbyI have made and received calls, no audio.
06:05.20noiddwhich I believe means that it logged into the cell network
06:05.28pjzcool
06:05.31noiddrwhitby is ahead of me.
06:05.49rwhitbyI've been filling out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AT_Commands
06:05.55pjzrwhitby: cool: audio problem is in getting it from the GSM or outputting it to the speaker(s) ?
06:06.02rwhitbyyou have to talk to the GSM module with AT commands at the moment
06:06.08alorilpeepsalot: ah, yeah using floating point codec
06:06.35pjzpeepsalot aloril: isn't there a fixed point ogg codec?
06:06.42rwhitbypjz: I don't grok the audio circuitry yet, so have no idea how to make the connections.  you need to do something with the alsa mixer apparently.
06:06.58alorilpjz: yes, it was mentioned at same discussion peepsalot refers
06:07.03pjzrwhitby: ah
06:07.10rwhitbynoidd: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM
06:07.19LINCMANall  I have to say is that I think this project is gonna blow the sox off of anything coming out in the next year
06:07.41LINCMANI figure my treo650 has another 6 month
06:07.45noiddrwhitby: i've been working on PCI audit all night, not had any time to play with new toy yet :-/
06:08.02LINCMANand then I am just gonna have to ditch my palmos
06:08.11LINCMANand I sure as hell don't want to be on WM
06:08.19noiddLICMAN: my treo is so dead already.  It doesn't recieve calls anymore and I regularly have to push it back together
06:08.32rwhitbynoidd: yeah, I was trying to get debug board working yesterday, but decided to just start getting familiar with the device connected to a linux host by usb first.
06:08.39noiddrwhitby: how would you describe the textture of the phone?
06:08.50LINCMANand palmos is NOT gonna evolve I have just come to grips with that
06:09.04LINCMANas much as I love it
06:09.08rwhitbynoidd: hard, smooth, neoprene-like plastic
06:09.10noiddrwhitby: I've not felt anything like it before and I'm at a complete loss to describe it other than it feels like alien technology
06:09.31rwhitby"neoprene" - get it? ;-)
06:09.37noiddheh
06:09.45peepsalotlol
06:09.49rwhitbyI call it "neoplastic"
06:10.05pjzso is there going to be some kind of standard event bus running? dbus or something?
06:10.44pjzah, nm, found the right wikipage :)
06:11.17noiddyou know what I mean by it feeling like alien tech tho right?  I've not felt anything like it before.  It's a whole new texture that I can barely describe
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06:12.22rwhitbyps listing - http://pastebin.ca/385957
06:12.58LINCMANnoidd do you know if the gui will be able to be customizable
06:14.11LINCMANnoidd do you have a specific project you are focused on?
06:14.13peepsalotnoidd: it is the texture is somewhat noticable just from some of the p0 photos.  has a matte, slightly sparkly/finely textured look to it
06:14.26peepsalotrm "it is"
06:14.33CIA-7openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1268 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/ (12 files): add launch history applications function & some small modfiy
06:14.51peepsalots/it is//
06:18.07noiddanyways - 1:15 - headint to bed.
06:18.08noiddlater
06:18.30alorilhmm.. I guess integer only benchmark would be more interesting, there probably will soon be EABI (I guess this might mainly depend on when EABI version of proprietary GPS library code becomes available)
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06:18.42aloril(still floating point comparing also is interesting ;-)
06:18.48peepsalotg'night noid
06:19.00CMaloril: I just guessed about that counter things, but thanks :)
06:19.15LINCMANnoidd are you on any specific project?
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06:24.59alorilhere is one benchmark command: dd bs=1024 count=1024 if=/dev/zero | gzip -9 > /dev/null
06:25.00LINCMANcworth are you one of the 36?
06:25.09cworthLINCMAN: yes
06:25.40LINCMANeach of the 36 assigned to different projects?
06:25.44aloriluuups,  dd bs=1024 count=1024 if=/dev/zero | time gzip -9 > /dev/null
06:25.55cworthLINCMAN: no idea
06:26.11LINCMANare you assigned to something special?
06:26.20cworthLINCMAN: assigned to?
06:26.33rwhitbyno assignments, we do what we please :-)
06:26.42LINCMANlike the gui or calendar for instance
06:27.37cworthLINCMAN: No, no asignment came with the phone. It's officially a gift.
06:29.03alorilLINCMAN: there is source code to almost everything (except GSM modem and GPS library to decipher and calculate data from chip)
06:29.13peepsaloti wonder why one of the first pictures of the neo has "nomad" stamped on it.
06:29.24alorilLINCMAN: so you can do about anything ;-)
06:30.03LINCMANok
06:30.14rwhitbypeepsalot: it's believed that's the name of the case manufacturer
06:30.22LINCMANso the basic functions are being handled by the staff?
06:30.46rwhitbyLINCMAN: phase0 devs are just getting up to speed at the moment
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06:31.55rwhitbyI personally am looking at a custom firmware distribution for the nslu2 (or similar devices) to make it easy to network the neo at home and work via bluetooth, and have it automatically change based on proximity (or switch to GPRS if desired based on GPS location)
06:32.04LINCMANso the basic functions have nothing to do with what the P0 devs are doing?
06:32.36rwhitbyLINCMAN: I don't understand what you're asking, or where you're going with it ...
06:33.38alorilLINCMAN: it depends wholly on P0 developer
06:33.39LINCMANI was just trying to figure out whether the P0 folks are actually writing some of the main functionality
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06:34.23alorilLINCMAN: some do integration with other devices (rwithby), some do distribution stuff (like running EABI Angstrom), some so kernel hacking, etc..
06:34.46alorilLINCMAN: I would say P0 developers will touch stuff widely ;-)
06:35.19alorilLINCMAN: there already are contributions even before P0 devices because source was released a while ago
06:35.39peepsalotLINCMAN: I think there is a core team of paid devs from FIC, but the community is welcome to contribute as well.  p0 devs are working on whatever the heck they want
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06:37.09LINCMANhow will we know what each of you wonderful p0's are working on
06:38.00peepsaloti keep IRC open and read the logs from when I'm away.  never miss a beat
06:38.11cworthLINCMAN: You can read what people post. Or, even, ask!
06:38.27peepsalotthen there's the mailing lists... and the list archives
06:38.33cworthLINCMAN: Me, I'm just working on getting a charged battery back into this device... :-(
06:38.34LINCMANwhat is it you are going to focus on cworth?
06:38.41LINCMANoh ok
06:38.43LINCMANhehe
06:39.21cworthLINCMAN: Hard to say for sure. I'll obviously make sure a recent cairo build is available for the device, and check out its performance.
06:39.51cworthLINCMAN: I'm quite interested in exploring the impacts of the 285ppi display, (how much antialiasing do we still need with pixels that small?).
06:40.32cworthLINCMAN: And I've been wanting a hackable GPS device with a good display for a long time, so I might play there too... (though I'd really prefer not to have any binary-only code in the way).
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06:41.37LINCMANcw do you know if the gps can tell another phone where it is and display the map of where it is
06:42.10cworthLINCMAN: "the gps" is just hardware for talking to GPS satellites. After that it's all just software waiting to be written.
06:42.15rwhitbyLINCMAN: that is functionality which is about three levels above where the software is at right now. ask again in six months.
06:42.52LINCMANhehehe ok
06:42.59LINCMANthat would be cool tho
06:43.13LINCMANso you can pinpoint your buddy on a map
06:43.37cworthrwhitby: I'd be surprised if P0 people weren't all quite clear on that. But, yeah...
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06:43.55peepsalotLINCMAN, at the very least, once the basic GPS drivers are written, you would be able to get your coordinates and send them in an sms to your friend
06:44.43rwhitbycworth: they did give us the choice to wait a month :-)
06:45.10peepsalotLINCMAN but i'm sure there will be much fancier applications for utilizing the GPS soon after that
06:45.15cworthrwhitby: Yeah, that should have scared away anyone expecting something more "consumer-ready". :-)
06:45.23CIA-7openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1269 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/ (dbus-conn.c main.c main.h): remove ^M
06:45.50peepsalothow were the p0 devs chosen?
06:46.00LINCMANbut currently it does have some gui right?
06:46.16cworthrwhitby: Though I am feeling foollish for not having gotten this thing onto a charger before running the battery dead. I hadn't anticpated the current state of the power controller wouldn't be able to recover from that.
06:46.19LINCMANand then under that a shell?
06:46.43rwhitbypeepsalot: you sent your application to the core team
06:46.58cworthLINCMAN: An X server, a menu, a few simple programs, and an X terminal emulator.
06:47.06rwhitbymy guess is they chose people with a history of significant contributions to embedded and UI open source projects.
06:47.33rwhitbyand it probably helped if you knew someone on the core team too :-)
06:47.35peepsalotLINCMAN: some gui pics here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review
06:47.46rwhitby(through association and work on similar projects)
06:48.29CMI'd say people who "get things done" have gotten it :)
06:50.00rwhitbyand hopefully people who "fix, don't bitch"
06:50.36rwhitbyor both ...
06:51.37LINCMANwhat do you p0 intend to code in
06:52.21peepsalottime for bed, g'night all
06:52.37rwhitbyLINCMAN: cross-compiled C
06:53.20rwhitby(that would have been a criteria too - understanding of cross-compilation for an embedded device)
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06:57.38LINCMANhas there been much discussion on text entry?
06:57.53LINCMANthat is one thing I will miss from my 650
07:01.13CMLINCMAN: look around in the wiki.openmoko.org for text entry
07:01.45LINCMANhow about the freedom mini keyboard bluetooth
07:02.37pjzso I've been looking at the OpenMokoFramework architecture stuff and thinking that libgsmd needs to show up as a dbus service
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07:03.30rwhitbyLINCMAN: are you subscribed to the mailing lists?
07:03.33rwhitbythat was discussed in the last 48 hours
07:03.39pjzbecause lots of apps might want to know about dialing, ringing, haning up, etc etc
07:04.31koengood morning all
07:04.32LINCMANno rw im not
07:04.51rwhitbyhey koen
07:05.20rwhitbykoen: what's the secret to audio output?  is there a wiki page on how to control the mixer?
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07:06.23koenrwhitby: load the state files from XorA|gone
07:06.44koenrwhitby: http://opensource.wolfsonmicro.com/~gg/neo1973/
07:06.52rwhitbyI guess no-one's put that on the wiki yet?
07:06.59ynezzkoen: pls can you make a dmesg from neo somewhere available? :)
07:07.04koenI did read that in the wiki *somewhere*
07:08.08rwhitbykoen: so "alsactl -f stereoout.state store" then madplay?
07:08.28koenthat should work
07:08.35rwhitbyhmm - didn't for me :-(
07:09.50alorilrwhitby: I'll add link to Mokomakefile to wikipedia article ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile unless you have better idea )
07:10.42koenrwhitby: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem implies that the asound files are different for various revisions
07:11.01alorilalso I think adding mention that Phase 0 developers have gotten phone ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review )
07:12.12rwhitbyaloril: sure
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07:17.15rwhitbykoen: the ~gg ones should work for P0 phones, right?
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07:18.22koenrwhitby: AIUI, yes
07:18.32koen(~gg == Xora)
07:23.43rwhitbyyeah.  I must be licking it wrong then.
07:24.55rwhitbyok, I was licking it wrong.
07:25.15alorilsorry if I somehow missed, but... could anybody with hardware run this command? (works on qemu at least): dd bs=1024 count=10240 if=/dev/zero | time gzip -9 > /dev/null
07:25.19pjzrwhitby: grats on sound!
07:26.34kmeyer10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 0.340193 seconds, 30.8 MB/s
07:26.35kmeyer0.12user 0.00system 0:00.37elapsed
07:26.36kmeyeraloril: ^
07:26.54pjzwow, those are better numbers than my desktop!
07:26.55alorilkmeyer: hehe, I mean Neo1973 ;-)
07:27.02kmeyeroh whoops
07:27.08kmeyerI thought I was in ##linux, lol
07:27.35kmeyerI was wondering why you said "anybody with hardware" :P
07:28.21rwhitbyhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#Phase0_Quick_Start
07:28.30LINCMANso is there any word what the special feature on the phone is gonna be in september?
07:28.59rwhitbykoen: thx for the help on sound - I've added a quick start for others at the top of that page.
07:31.56alorilrwhitby: does that allow voice calls now?
07:34.00pjzaloril: no, he was just getting sound output to work
07:34.30pjzaloril: by doing some magic and then running madplay
07:36.47alorilpjz: OK, I was wondering whether is was time to update P0_Review page about that (maybe there should be separate P0 FAQ page?)
07:38.43rwhitbygot a phone call with audio (only through speaker, no mic)
07:38.55rwhitbyso I could hear them, but they couldn't hear me
07:39.46alorilcool, I'll add link to it anyway then
07:40.28rwhitbyhttp://pastebin.ca/385991 is what I had to do - first I made a call (the number has been changed), then I received a call, and then hung up.
07:40.53rwhitbyHad to do http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM first of course to turn on GSM and register with the network.
07:41.09*** join/#openmoko denis^da (n=denis@p5B07CC4F.dip.t-dialin.net)
07:43.31rwhitbycourse all of this has been done by the .eu guys 12 hours ago - I'm just catching up after work.
07:50.25aloriladding "Q: Can I record calls and/or play audio files in calls?" question to FAQ: I think its fair to say that there is not yet software to record calls? (well.. if there is no software to do calling then ;-)
07:51.06alorilA: Yes, audio path from GSM to/from mic and speakers is completely controllable by user. For example recording calls (both sides) and implementing answering machine is possible. Also you using text->speech should be possible or modifying outgoing voice. Currently there is no software bundled in phone to do this.
07:51.06rwhitbythe answer to both is "yes, you will be able to do that when the software is written"
07:51.27aloril(seen this question at least 3 times I think in IRC)
07:52.00alorils/ Also you/ Also/
07:52.27sixfeet__nice ;)
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07:53.32alorilOK, I think FAQ now answers most questions asked on IRC (that belong to FAQ)
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07:57.38koenrwhitby: if you build from OE .dev, making a call became a lot easier since the last commit :)
07:57.52rwhitbykoen: saw that :-)
08:00.14alorilpjz: cool idea about SMS<->email gateway in phone
08:00.41pjzaloril: it seemed the easy thing to do to suddenly leverage a bunch of existing code
08:00.57pjzaloril: procmail, etc.
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08:04.44alorilpjz: yeah, ideas is kind of obvious in hindsight ;-)
08:05.14alorils/ideas/idea
08:05.16pjzyup, I'm good at pointing out the obvious things that people miss :)
08:06.04pjzlike: don't bother binding libmoko* to N different languages, just bind to Dbus and the other langs can all use them that way
08:06.28pjzmodulo performance overhead, of course
08:07.13pjzplus then there will be some introspection into the API, which is always good.
08:08.03pjzdoes it do usbnet yet?
08:08.11pjzpresumably that's high prio for the devs
08:08.43rwhitbypjz: I ssh root@neo through usbnet
08:08.48alorilpjz: I think they are using it currently trough usbnet
08:09.32hrwI plan to switch to ssh over BT
08:09.34rwhitbyalthough at one point I had to run vi on the phone to get usbnet working again, and it was *painful*
08:09.54rwhitby(but doable on P0)
08:10.39pjzheh
08:10.51rwhitbyok, what's the secret to the phone seeing the SD card?
08:11.37alorilrwhitby: prepare for kernel oops or something like that if you do too much IO with SD (I guess you have seen this already in IRC logs)
08:11.46pjzaloril: I was thinking of doing it the other way: running vncserver on the Neo and connecting to it on my desktop
08:12.01pjzaloril: so I could just take my desktop with me
08:12.25alorilpjz: that too, but desktop has more resources ;-)
08:12.41pjzaloril: well, sure, but if it's a corporate desktop it's behind firewalls and things
08:13.38pjzaloril: but yeah, a freeNX Neo client would be cool
08:13.39aloril(Neo1973 X11 would be just yet another workspace in desktop)
08:14.44pjzaloril: looks like the Zaurus 5XXX already has a FreeNX client
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08:15.58Elixir-If I'm paying per MB then I think I'm going to use the thinnest stream I can =]
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08:17.56alorilsomething like "screen -d -R" offers but for X11: transfer control or duplicate it (using FreeNX of course, so I guess Neo1973 side already has requisite software available (^Zaurus 5XXX comment))
08:18.54hrwkoen|lab: do you feel that angstrom image works slower?
08:19.09koen|labhrw: in some areas
08:20.34LINCMANis the sd card a full size sd?
08:20.43hrwLINCMAN: no, its 8" one
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08:21.31LINCMAN8???
08:21.51hrwLINCMAN: yes. and comes with extra battery for power it.
08:22.33LINCMANI am talking the memory chip
08:22.52bluelightningLINCMAN: and he's kidding, in case you can't tell... ;)
08:22.59rwhitbyLINCMAN: by the way, having an all-caps nick does not inspire confidence ...
08:23.06hrwLINCMAN: and I'm saying "read WIKI" using other words
08:23.15lincmansorry
08:23.37lincmanI think my client did something odd
08:24.03alorillincman: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware
08:24.25lincmanhrw from the pix I saw it lookd like a regular sd card with a mini
08:25.31lincmanbut I couldn't tell for sure and that is why I was asking
08:25.37rwhitbydo I need to do something in u-boot to get the neo to see the storage card?
08:26.43hrwrwhitby: mmcinit in uboot see card
08:27.33rwhitbyhrw: thx
08:28.10hrwrwhitby: but linux does not (here)
08:28.47rwhitbyso everyone's running all packages from internal flash at the moment?
08:30.39hrwI do
08:31.41*** part/#openmoko lincman (n=LINCMAN@adsl-216-102-232-14.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net)
08:32.27sameoanyone has experience building an ARMv4 kernel with gcc 4.1.1 ? Any outstanding issues ?
08:32.54hrwsameo: armv4 or armv4t?
08:33.31alorilpartial (or full) answer to my question: http://dmx.sourceforge.net/
08:33.42rwhitbyhrw: thx, I'll stop worrying about it now :-)
08:33.45sameohrw: v4
08:34.20hrwsameo: should work
08:34.42sameohrw: thx
08:34.53hrwrwhitby: now I want to get gps and gsm working
08:35.48sameohrw: are there any issues with v4t ?
08:36.21rwhitbyhrw: I made and received calls just before.  speaker works (and headset), but no microphone path.
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08:36.49rwhitbyhrw: http://pastebin.ca/385991
08:39.42hrwsameo: I do not have any
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08:40.13hrwrwhitby: my neo refuse to connect to serials
08:40.41rwhitbyhrw: did you set to usb console in u-boot and follow setup instructions in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM ?
08:41.05hrwprobably not quite yet
08:42.19hrwthx
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08:55.27CIA-7openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1270 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/ (callbacks.c main.c main.h sms-membership-window.c):
08:55.27CIA-7openmoko: Add send_signal_to_footer to send message information to footer
08:55.27CIA-7openmoko: Modify cb_mmitem_activate .
08:57.14hrwargh.. now I remembed why I hate usbnet
08:57.45hrwall those 'ifup after hotplug and then run iptables'....
08:57.49hrw~curse usbnet
08:57.51aptMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, usbnet !
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09:06.47hrwhm. koen|lab: matchbox-panel-2 has other method of adding/removing/moving applets then mb-1 had?
09:11.22koen|labyes
09:11.26koen|lab@^&^$@&^$&@*$^*&# matchbox
09:11.45koen|labfrom a user POV: mb-panel2 == unfinished crap
09:11.53hrwand @#$@%@$@FWSDF@T$%%@! usbnetworking
09:12.04YcrosI never liked matchbox
09:12.05koen|labthere's no way to add mb-panel2 applets after starting it
09:12.20koen|labYcros: this is about matchbox-panel, not matchbox-wm
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09:14.23YcrosI don't like the whole stack
09:22.22koen|labhrw: are you going to fix it, now you work for o-hand?
09:24.56hrwkoen|lab: thats not my part of job
09:25.09hrwkoen|lab: I'm OE man
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09:29.56aloril(CL) FIC submitted/submitting Neo1973 to FCC/EC?'''  "some of them will be used as samples for FCC/CE/... style certifications" [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/004060.html full mail]. Also seems they don't have any 'extra' phones currently.
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10:13.42makuchakuHi all... when is OpenMoko going to be available for general public in March? & how can I obtain a piece?
10:13.42alorilmakuchaku: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:14.38alorilmakuchaku: accurate date is not known
10:15.14alorilcounter
10:15.15alorilP0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/ P1: 3 weeks, 3 days 01:44:45 (24.073 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (501)
10:15.19makuchakualoril: ah... ok & will there be a shopping website for it? I want to dump my E61 :)
10:15.43Psiwe think they will start with preorders
10:15.45jeddy3makuchaku, you and me both!
10:15.56alorilmakuchaku: sure (also from EU)
10:16.01makuchakujeddy3: :)
10:16.34makuchakuPsi: the preorder page on the wiki will be considered or is it just a counter to see how many people are interested in getting the phase1 device...
10:16.44jeddy3i can't even believe how you could make a telephone with such possibilities, suck so unbeleavably much :P
10:17.05alorilmakuchaku: that is just "I want to inform world that I intent to get one and what I plan to do"
10:17.14makuchakualoril: :)
10:17.33Psiwhere is that, ive not seen it?
10:17.49*** join/#openmoko antenagora (n=antenago@147.162.137.243)
10:18.04makuchakuPsi: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List
10:18.49alorilmakuchaku: ie.. it specifically is not pre-order page  (which is told there)
10:19.23makuchakualoril: true, read that :)
10:20.18Psiis there an automatic way to add to that list? or do i have to edit the wiki myself?
10:20.42makuchakuPsi: edit the wiki
10:20.59*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
10:21.15SpeedEvilOr you can pay someone to add your name to the wiki.
10:21.21Psihaha
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10:25.00makuchakuThe FAQ says that there will be 5 more open moko devices (information about them) in May ... is that so?
10:26.05Psihehe someone is planing to get 4 phase1 phones
10:26.08SpeedEvilNot in may
10:26.29SpeedEvilThere will be some announced as time is going on.
10:26.38SpeedEvilI don't think there is an actual timescale
10:27.35Hadakahmmh, is there a concept image or something to illustrate the differences between black/silver and white/orange devices?
10:28.05Psihttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
10:28.11Psithat shows you the white/orange
10:28.36alorilsee  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/neo1973/ for black/silver and wiki for orange/white
10:28.43SpeedEvilAnd on the 'Pictures' link on 'introduction' on the main page is pecures of the black+silver
10:28.45Psipersonally i think the white/orange looks like a 12yold girls phone, but hey, thats me :P
10:29.03SpeedEvilWe want 12 year old girls using it.
10:29.25SpeedEvilIt needs to come with myspace type apps, ...
10:29.28Psiheh
10:29.33SpeedEvil(Come sep)
10:30.04alorilhmm.. there could be CD with it: put CD to computer, on phone select style -> update phone with that style/apps/settings..
10:30.06buzin that case, fic needs to license hello kitty characters
10:30.13SpeedEvilYeah.
10:30.42alorilor license hardware for somebody who does it
10:31.01alorilactually, I guess you could just buy those and replace case ...
10:31.19buzi want a fully black neo anyway
10:31.26buzno silver stuff that goes off after 3 months
10:31.40Hadakadoes the black/silver one have the FIC text in silver or orange (it's orange in some older pictures)
10:31.42tigertblack paint is cheap
10:31.44Psiheh, i want my phone made out of that new material that was on slashdot a few days ago, that substance that reflects pretty much nothing at all
10:31.56alorils/if market/is market/
10:32.12tigertPsi: "dang, where did I put my phone again...?"
10:32.16SpeedEvilYou'd need to hold it by the back, and keep it in a sealed dust-proof case.
10:32.24alorils:t/i:d/i:
10:32.34Psitigert, thats what the GPS receiver is for
10:32.39tigert:)
10:32.46tigertwont work too well indoors though
10:32.57tigertare you guys planning to use geoclue?
10:33.04buzi need the "call and entere code to make it unsilent" feature
10:33.07Stephmwjust have it answer to whistles
10:33.27SpeedEvilUnfortunately, to do that, it'd need to be running in slow mode.
10:33.35buzStephmw: hilarity ensures when it starts answering to other peoples whistle in school etc
10:33.36SpeedEvilAt at best 2 day battery life.
10:33.41SpeedEvilHowever.
10:33.42alorilbuz: just ssh into it and play audio file ;-)
10:34.02SpeedEvilI've bee looking at recognising whistled tunes automatically on PIC class hardware.
10:34.03buzfor that it also needs to run in slow mode i guess
10:34.07SpeedEvilThis is _really_ hard.
10:34.09alorilah.. hmm.. yeah
10:34.11buzSpeedEvil: it can be done
10:34.20buzkeychains doing that have been around in the 80s even
10:34.24SpeedEvilNo.
10:34.29alorilcall then, yes, that should wakeup it (actually GPRS also should wake it up)
10:34.30Stephmwbuz: sure, record the whistle you want it to answer to, only answer if there's some match
10:34.33SpeedEvilRecognising actual specific whistled tunes.
10:34.42SpeedEvilwith variations in pitch and speed.
10:34.55StephmwSpeedEvil: interesting research area ;)
10:34.58SpeedEvilThis is trivial to do with a processor as fast as 12MHZ.
10:35.00buzmhh i dont think i care for that ;)
10:35.20alorilie.. if GPRS is on, but not actually transmitting data (or only transmitting it every few minutes): at least day should be OK?
10:35.28alorilif transmitting, then battery is drained soon
10:35.35aloril(my experience with another phone)
10:36.23buzthe fact that the usb connector is on the side sucks for docking
10:36.41Psialoril, problem would be if you got traffic TO your ip from the internet
10:36.45Psicant exactly stop that
10:37.06Stephmwbuz: dock it sideways?
10:37.22buzmost apps seem portrait optimized so far?
10:37.23alorilPsi: yeah, but usually phones are behind NAT so should not be problem in practise
10:37.38Stephmwbuz: how many apps would you actively used when docked though?
10:37.39Psihow does that work?
10:37.40HadakaI'd want GPRS on all the time - and GPS transmitting location every some minutes over the GPRS to a remote server - any idea what kind of battery life would I get for that?
10:37.51buzStephmw: i occasionaly do it with my p900
10:37.58buzbut that's mostly because there's no working VNC for it ;)
10:38.08Psiie, what does the nat?
10:38.17buzthere obviously will be for openmoko
10:38.24alorilHadaka: probably > 1 day
10:38.31SpeedEvilAnd the USB connector _sucks_ for docking.
10:38.31SpeedEvilIt needs alignment of +-0.5mm or so.
10:38.31SpeedEvilOr it will get bent when you dock it.
10:38.32Hadakaaloril: okay, that's enough
10:38.48*** join/#openmoko ThePeritus (n=DaPeritu@e178103077.adsl.alicedsl.de)
10:38.52HadakaI want it to have enough battery for the day of phone calls - I can charge it every night
10:38.58SpeedEvil>> 1 day.
10:39.08SpeedEvilI'd expect closer to a week.
10:39.18SpeedEvilIf it's properly power saving.
10:39.52SpeedEvilThe GPS can wakeup and get a position in 1s.
10:39.58HadakaSpeedEvil: power saving doesn't mean suspend in this case does it? just not running the cpu full burn
10:40.10ThePerituskoen: would you mind, licensing some (all?) of your unboxing pics on flickr under cc (and/or gfdl) for inclusion in wikipedia ?
10:40.10SpeedEvilyes - full suspend to RAM.
10:40.10alorilThePeritus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:40.17alorilPsi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation (which is linked from wikipedia NAT page too)
10:40.18PsiSpeedEvil, 1 second! thats pretty impressive
10:40.29Psii know how nat works
10:40.39Psibut what does it on a cellphone?
10:40.52HadakaSpeedEvil: hmmh, okay
10:41.20HadakaPsi: most gprs connections from ISP:s are behind NATs - so no inbound connections
10:41.25Psiah
10:41.25SpeedEvilSlow mode = 12Mhz = battery life of 2 dayish.
10:41.43Psino inbound at all?
10:41.56SpeedEvilNo.
10:42.01Psidamn
10:42.07Hadakahow is the slow mode implemented? is it something that can be used with ondemand cpu governor or is it a slower switch?
10:42.17SpeedEvilHow would you like virus/... scanning being charged
10:42.21HadakaPsi: well, not unless it's related to some outgoing connection (eg. ftp etc. work perhaps)
10:42.25SpeedEvilit's sort of ondemand
10:42.41alorilPsi: there are ways to punch trough that though, but you usually need some other machine elsewhere
10:42.47Psiyeah
10:42.48buzvirus scanning? i wont tolerate virus scanning on a phone
10:42.50SpeedEvilUSB and LCD do not work in slow mode.
10:42.59alorilPsi: for example using another machine its possible to have web server for example in phone ;-)
10:43.03Psishould be able to VPN to home and use that connection :P
10:43.05SpeedEvilI mean external viruses scanning your IP space.
10:43.20SpeedEvilBluetooth also does not work in slow mode.
10:43.23buzthe telco would happily charge you for that
10:43.29Psiyeah
10:43.52Hadakamany ISPs have so called VPN GPRS connections available as well - where you have a public non-firewalled dynamic IP
10:44.31HadakaSpeedEvil: hmmh, bluetooth doesn't work at all? eg. the device is not discoverable?
10:44.48SpeedEvilI don't know.
10:44.53Hadakaokay
10:44.57SpeedEvilThe bluetooth device may or may not work.
10:45.03SpeedEvilIt's a USB module.
10:45.10SpeedEvilIt cannot talk over USB in slow mode.
10:45.31HadakaI need the phone to be always discoverable over bluetooth (or not discoverable possibly, but reachable by the bluetooth mac)
10:45.31SpeedEvilSo probably not, unless more is in hardware than I thought.
10:45.36Hadakaright
10:45.43Psimust admit i expected to see more than 139 people in the unofficial phase1 list
10:46.19alorilPsi: you need to bother enough to register nick and add yourself there for no gain ;-)
10:46.27HadakaI hate wiki lists like that, too much work
10:46.33Psiyeah
10:46.40SpeedEvilOh come on. It's 2 mins effort.
10:46.40alorilPsi: I would except actual private preorder page very soon have 10x more ;-)
10:47.02StephmwSpeedEvil: that's 2 mins too long ;)
10:47.03alorilhowever its interesting to read what people plan to do
10:47.10StephmwSpeedEvil: people have such short attention spans these days
10:47.21antenagoraPsi,  140 people ;)
10:47.38Psiheh
10:47.44friedelPsi: You can add me in your mind - too lazy here as well.
10:47.54StephmwSpeedEvil: remember the web trueism: don't go past one screenfull of content per page on a website... past that you lose 1/2 of the audience
10:47.55friedelI'm sure there are many like me.
10:48.06Hadakaso, how about cpu not in slow mode, still >1 day operating time?
10:48.46*** join/#openmoko renihs (n=penguin@83-65-34-34.arsenal.xdsl-line.inode.at)
10:49.11ElrondStephmw - Wait! What's that scrollbar good for anyway? ;o)
10:49.21alorilfriedel: yeah, thus my guess of at least 10x more for page where you could actually pre-order
10:49.28renihshmm once it is availiable, will it be shipped in europe too?
10:49.28alorilrenihs: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
10:49.35alorilrenihs: yes
10:49.39renihsthanks :)
10:49.40alorilrenihs: from EU too
10:49.48rob_whmm the dialer doenst open up
10:49.50Elrondrenihs - Yes.
10:50.00StephmwElrond: it gets worse on mobile phones
10:50.03SpeedEvilSlow mode should get 2 days
10:50.15inzSteph, what if the audience you're targeting is the one that doesn't mind about content being >1 screenful?
10:50.18SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management#Approximate_power_draw_of_various_subsystems
10:50.23*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
10:50.30alorilhmmm.. no good answer to "where does it ship " -questions in FAQ
10:50.39buzis there a current qemu image that doesnt suffer of wrong screen orientation?
10:50.51Stephmwinz: of course, geeks and people who are desperate (Ooo... overlapping grouping!) will go past the 'fold'
10:51.13Stephmwinz: but usually, their numbers are slight
10:51.18renihsthere is a qemu image to try out?
10:51.29SpeedEvilemulator?
10:51.29Stephmwinz: in comparison to the vast amount of attention-deficient people
10:51.57StephmwElrond: on mobiles, typically each keypress loses you 1/3 to 1/2 of the users
10:51.59buzcan we run the phone in power off mode when its just sitting there?
10:52.05SpeedEvilrenihs: It's linked off the FAQ AIUI.
10:52.08renihscool, nice downloading now
10:52.09renihsya:)
10:52.12StephmwElrond: that's why most frequent actions are available directly from the idle screen
10:52.35SpeedEvilbuz 'run the phone in power off mode' ?
10:52.37ElrondStephmw - Yeah. :)
10:52.49SpeedEvilIf you mean with the CPU off, in suspend-RAM, then generally yes.
10:52.51buz"In Power_off mode, only the SDRAM is held in refresh"
10:52.56buzseems like that is actually suspend to ram to me
10:53.08StephmwElrond: then again, I work on mass-market devices... smartphone users can be a little better
10:53.11SpeedEvilIt has interrupts on time, GSM, press, ...
10:53.27SpeedEvilSome of these don't work on P0.
10:53.33buzyeah i know
10:53.41buzbut they are supposed to work on P1
10:53.55buz200microwatt shouldnt be that bad ;)
10:54.07SpeedEvilIt should be possible to have a battery life of around a year.
10:54.22SpeedEvilJust waking up to poll something for missed calls every hour.
10:54.27aloril" Q: When can I buy a Neo1973? A: Late March for developers, September for mass market - See Neo1973 for most up to date information. Neo1973 will be shipped worldwide. There will be also shipping from EU. To be informed when it is available, subscribe to the mailing list announce."
10:54.50buzdoes the gsm network give you a list of missed calls??
10:54.59buzif it does, i have never seen that implemented on a phone
10:55.07SpeedEvilI know some GSM providers do.
10:55.14SpeedEvilOn some phones.
10:55.19Elrondbuz - My provider does by sms.
10:55.20SpeedEvilI'm unsure how it's done.
10:55.35buzyes, but that's not really the network doing it ;)
10:55.37StephmwSpeedEvil: iirc it can be a combination of mobile/operator
10:55.42SpeedEvilYeah.
10:55.56SpeedEvilOr an external voicemail service.
10:56.58ElrondP0 owners: Is the display readable without backlight?  (talking "tranflective")
10:57.02SpeedEvilNo
10:57.25ElrondOr better: "somehow readable" would be my question.
10:57.27SpeedEvilThere is a tradeoff between reflective visibility and power per brightness of baclkight.
10:57.28alorils/There will be also shipping from EU./There also will be shipping from EU./ ?
10:57.48SpeedEvilThey picked the lower power backlight, which means essentially invisible.
10:57.51Elrondaloril - The later sounds better.
10:58.13Elrondaloril - But I'm not a native speaker.
10:58.14alorilElrond: thanks, fixed on wiki
10:58.30ElrondSpeedEvil - Ahh, okay...
10:58.42alphaonegood morning
10:58.51SpeedEvilThe reflective mode is done by a half-mirrored layer. This also reflects the LED light that wants to go in.
10:59.31rob_wphuew there is indeed much work to be done ..
10:59.34ElrondAhh, so it's either "bridgt backlight or transflective" for the same LEDs.
10:59.40CoreDump|home~lart SVNDATE="now"
10:59.56CoreDump|home~botsnack
10:59.56aptaw, gee, CoreDump|home
10:59.57SpeedEvilYeah :(
11:01.02Elrondaloril - Is the some larger font mode on the same menu that has the "rotation" thingies?
11:01.12ElrondHUh.
11:01.17Elrondalphaone - Is the some larger font mode on the same menu that has the "rotation" thingies?
11:02.47rob_wCoreDump|home, didnt they fix svn now ? i thought i saw some mail about it
11:02.57CoreDump|homenope
11:03.52alorilhrw: thanks for benchmark (seems to be about 20x slower than my desktop in this test)
11:04.29alorilbetter than I was excepting
11:04.37buzhttp://www.toppreise.ch/prod_93704.html
11:04.40buzoops
11:04.41buzwrong window
11:05.11alphaoneElrond: Idon'tt think I understand the question
11:07.11CoreDump|homeLaF0rge: openmoko-dates is b0rked:  make[1]: *** No rule to make target `pl.gmo', needed by `all-yes'.  Stop.
11:07.30*** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-59-67.dyn.iinet.net.au)
11:07.46Elrondalphaone - You told me yesterday, that there is a "rotation mode" in the menus. I'd like to know, if there's also a "larger fonts" mode nearby.
11:08.59alphaoneElrond: Ah. Not in the mb-panel. But if you go to Desktop -> Settings -> Appearance
11:09.19Elrondalphaone - Ahh. :)
11:09.20alphaoneI don't know what that does, though
11:09.28alphaoneAlways crashed on me :-)
11:09.41Elrondtihi ;)
11:10.30ElrondThis afternoon I need to fix some crypto stuff. I hope at the weekend I'll get to setup something in xoo. Didn't yet have the time.
11:10.51alphaone:-)
11:11.20Elrond<-- stares at crystallographic data now ;)
11:11.37alphaoneWe need cryptsetup-luks on the phone :-)
11:12.13hrwkoen|lab: can you upgrade libgcc1 to 4.1.2 in feeds? or does libgcc-s1 provides it now?
11:14.21SpeedEvilAnother silly benchmark: time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1024 count=10240 of=/dev/zero
11:16.40rob_wSpeedEvil, 10240+0 records in
11:16.41rob_w10240+0 records out
11:16.41rob_wreal    0m 34.95s
11:16.41rob_wuser    0m 0.01s
11:16.41rob_wsys     0m 34.69s
11:16.54hrw10240+0 records in
11:16.54hrw10240+0 records out
11:16.54hrwreal    0m 37.01s
11:16.54hrwuser    0m 0.03s
11:16.54hrwsys     0m 36.42s
11:17.08SpeedEvilInteresting.
11:17.18SpeedEvilsys     0m19.713s
11:17.23SpeedEvilPII/300
11:17.23*** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.40)
11:17.39hrwreal    0m3.105s
11:17.48hrwAthlon64/2000Mhz
11:18.31rob_wProcessor       : ARM920T rev 0 (v4l)
11:18.31rob_wBogoMIPS        : 100.96
11:18.31rob_w<PROTECTED>
11:18.35rob_w;-)
11:19.19alorilwhat about this: time dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024 count=102400 of=/dev/zero
11:19.43hrwrob_w: it can be 133 BogoMIPS ;D
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11:20.44rob_whrw, nice
11:21.06rob_wthe microSD doent mount .. although i see the partition at fdisk
11:22.51Elrond"sys     0m2.952s" (for the urandom) on a Pentium D at 2.8GHz.  
11:23.31hrwaloril: real    0m 2.23s
11:23.31hrwuser    0m 0.12s
11:23.31hrwsys     0m 2.08s
11:24.35koen|labhrw: it seems libgcc-s1 provides it, although I don't know why
11:24.54hrwdebian renaming
11:24.58koen|labit seems the p0 phones are at 200MHz?
11:25.40hrwkoen|lab: debug board works only on 200MHz
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11:26.54koen|labtime to find out if the CS building has some food
11:31.49ThePerituskoen|lab: would you mind, licensing some (all?) of your unboxing pics on flickr under cc (and/or gfdl) for inclusion in wikipedia ?
11:31.58ThePerituscrap. off he went .. ..
11:33.37StephmwThePeritus: he'll be back - try also be email ;-)
11:33.41Stephmw*by
11:34.26ThePeritusStephmw: i'll idle here for a while .. .., thx.
11:35.10alphaoneThe 911 Button doesnt produce any xevents...
11:35.33*** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22)
11:36.13Stephmwalphaone: maybe it needs the dialer?
11:37.32SuNHeh.. "911 emergency line, how can I help you? Are you sick? Is someone dying? Drowning puppies?" "No, I eh, just wanted to see if this worked"
11:38.34hrwshit. usbnetworking died
11:38.37StephmwSuN: yeah, times like that you want a private cell
11:39.13hrwNETDEV WATCHDOG: usb0: transmit timed out
11:39.15hrwlove it
11:39.30alphaoneStephmw: It should produce some events
11:39.48alphaoneOtherwise how is the dialer going to know about it?
11:40.38CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1271 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ChangeLog: * Remove incorrect ChangeLog from openmoko-today
11:41.11Stephmwalphaone: I'm thinking perhaps the dialer provides a .so that has the event generation
11:41.29hrwwhy you think that 911/aux button will call dialer?
11:41.41Stephmwcommon code paths?
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11:46.45aloriltime dd bs=1024 if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null
11:46.57alorilor whatever where root partition on Phase 0 phone resides
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11:52.46DesktopMablock size could probably be a bit bigger
11:53.16alorilDesktopMa: does it matter on flash?
11:53.45DesktopMafor the flash read part probably not, but for pipe etc should be faster
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12:00.08alorilcounter_set http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review
12:00.08alorilaloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review
12:00.45alorilcounter
12:00.46alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 23:59:14 (23.999 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (502)
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12:07.27DesktopMadon't you just love a phone you have to modprobe gta01_pm_gsm call from? :D
12:08.02CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1272 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/src/Makefile.am: * Use OpenMoko recommended CFLAGS in openmoko-today
12:13.15SpeedEvilAnd have to use morse.
12:16.14rwhitbyCoreDump|home: I'm looking to update MokoMakefile to use the patched bitbake over the weekend.  That should fix the svnnow behaviour by using the new python bitbake patches.
12:21.21CIA-7openmoko: 03rwhitby * r48 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openocd.patch site.patch): Refreshed patches against latest OpenMoko svn
12:21.46philipperwhitby: I added a small patch to your mokomakefil on the wiki for people with a multiple cpu machine.
12:22.14rwhitbyphilippe: nod
12:22.33rwhitbyyou  could just tell people to edit local.conf instead, since it is only created once and not touched after that.
12:22.37alphaoneSomeone called and the Neo said RING
12:22.40*** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21)
12:22.42rwhitby(rather than patching the makefile)
12:22.43alphaoneBut no callerID
12:22.59philipperwhitby: ok, I'll just change it in the tips then.
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12:24.40rwhitbyalphaone: 7.6Calling line identification presentation +CLIP
12:25.20rwhitby(from TS 27.007 - dunno if it's implemented on Calypso)
12:25.39rob_wi cant fetch the openmoko kernel , why is that ?
12:26.09rob_wit says it cant find rev 11
12:26.30rwhitbybit more context needed rob_w
12:26.48rob_wNOTE: Fetch svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel;module=patches;proto=https
12:26.49rob_wsvn: Kann 'https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches' in Revision 11 nicht im Projektarchiv finden
12:27.20rob_wi did an update though
12:28.00alphaonerwhitby: I'm pretty sure it is.
12:28.15alphaoneMaybe I have to activate that first
12:28.20SpeedEvilRapidshare FOSdem talk downloads - 350.
12:28.35hrwFSCK
12:28.59hrwneo does not bring usb0 up and terminal is not startable due to lack of icon ;(
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12:29.39CoreDump|homehrw: FWIW DISTRO=openmoko build working images
12:29.50rob_wis there any coordinator , who delegates task to the phase 0 people ?
12:30.05rwhitbyaloril :-)
12:30.52hrwCoreDump|home: this one works too - stopped doing it today
12:31.12Elrondrob_w - Pick something from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review or from bugzilla. ;o)
12:31.47SpeedEvilOr from Wishlist:Applications if you're feeling energetic.
12:31.57ElrondRight.
12:32.15rob_wrighto
12:33.35aloriltime dd bs=1024 if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null
12:33.46hrwno /dev/sda on device
12:33.48noiddcrap - I killed my p0 phone :-P
12:33.48alorilwould be interesting to know (or whatever root partition is)
12:34.15alorilie.. NAND read speed test
12:34.41noiddI'm hoping I just drained the battery hard.
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12:34.52SpeedEvilDo you own a voltmeter?
12:35.04noiddyup - but its at home right now
12:35.08noiddand i'm at work
12:35.13SpeedEvilIf so, just sticking it across the outside battery contacts should read >3.3V if it's sort-of-ok.
12:35.16SpeedEvilOh.
12:35.23noiddIts probably just needs chargin'
12:35.51noiddbasically I'm attempting to power it off usb but the hardware may not do that.
12:36.05*** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net)
12:36.06noiddI'll test it later, wheee
12:36.16koen|labaloril: I'd wait with the NAND read test till LaF0rge merges the LZO jffs2 patch
12:36.29alorilnoidd: try it with Nokia BL-5C  ?
12:36.33hrwkoen|lab: ;D
12:36.39hrwNETDEV WATCHDOG: usb0: transmit timed out
12:36.44hrwfsckin usb networking
12:37.14philippeanybody any idea what would be a realistic value for a phase0 phone? (I need this for the customs)
12:37.24SpeedEvilWell.
12:37.30SpeedEvilI'd say $100
12:37.37SpeedEvilKeep in mind that it's _buggy_.
12:37.40SpeedEvilActually.
12:37.44philippeindeed.
12:37.49SpeedEvilIt's probably so buggy it's not really usable.
12:38.05SpeedEvilIn final state of software, probably $100.
12:38.12SpeedEvilBut it's not there yet.
12:38.32SpeedEvilAlso - compensation will typically be paid only to the declared value if it gets lost.
12:38.41philippeOkay seems low enough to avoid taxation...
12:39.04philippethe declared value is 0 euro and customs here in Finland don't seem to like it.
12:39.04alphaoneI think I just read a mail that answers my question about the AUX button
12:39.07alorilkoen|lab: umm... reading partition directly should not be affected by that? (reading files yes of course)
12:39.26noiddIt was on its way to a landfil before it was shipped out
12:39.34alphaonephilippe: :-(
12:39.51noiddphilippe: Well, do you know what duty rate is?
12:39.52SpeedEvilIt looks like a phone with a very high value.
12:39.56SpeedEvilComparatively.
12:39.58koen|labaloril: mtd isn't a block device
12:40.27SpeedEvilI'd respond, pointing them to the website, and detailing that these are _buggy_ hardware, where the dialer doesn't even work.
12:40.43noiddI would do the same
12:40.50philippenoidd: duty rate is 22%
12:41.09alphaonephilippe: Just hand them the phone and tell them you'll pay customs if they manage to call someone with it :-)
12:41.14noiddas an engineering sample or as a final cellphone device?
12:41.35philippealphaone: I wish I could do it like that...
12:41.36noiddin the US at least the duty rate for an engineering sample is 0% so the declared value didn't matter
12:41.37SpeedEvilIt's not a cellphone if you can't actually call people with it in the current state :)
12:42.46noiddPersonally - I'd say that its a non-functional engineering sample for a cellphone that won't be publically available until September
12:43.12noiddSo it has no intrinsic value that you are able to quantify
12:43.37philippeI think I am going to avoid using the word cellphone. My guess is that they will just take any cellphone value and use that as a reference then.
12:43.41rob_wi see lots of 4>adc_read: entering (pcf=c0549e00, channel=0, data2=00000000)  is that some gsm output ?
12:43.50noiddsure
12:44.18noiddthe customs declaration from FIC (assuming its the same as mine) said "Enginnering Sample - Value $0"
12:44.26noiddbecause honestly, it has no commercial value.
12:44.50alorilkoen|lab: ah, OK (it bangs it kind of 'directly' and takes bad block, etc.. into account), would need some kind of special dd command that could read it and pass bad blocks, not so simple anymore
12:44.52noiddit was due to go to landfill after all
12:45.59philippenoidd: That is what the Finnish customs don't want to accept.
12:46.19SpeedEvilIs this your first contact with them?
12:46.21Elrondnoidd - Put it on ebay... and you'll see the value. ;o)
12:46.30SpeedEvilOr have you been arguing back and forth?
12:46.39alorilhmm.. 'clever' customs people might say "Lets see what it will fetch on eBay" ;-)
12:46.56alorilElrond: hehe, we got this idea same time
12:47.35alorilphilippe: print this out  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv3
12:48.32Elrondphilippe - hehe, or ask them to show you, how they try to phone using the thing. ;)
12:48.44Robot10112:47 < zaheerm> wtay: awesome: gst-launch-0.10 -m videotestsrc ! identity  drop-probability=0.1 ! identity check-perfect=true ! fakesink  sync=true
12:48.49Robot101hm, oops.
12:49.00*** join/#openmoko jaebird (n=jae@53-89.netblk-69-41-89.coolaccess.net)
12:49.21ElrondLike any smartphone, the neo can't be used to phone (at least currently). ;o))
12:49.24Elrond*duck*
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12:50.32danilosElrond: are you saying it's too smart for that? :)
12:50.42philippealoril: I'll keep that page in mind :-)
12:51.33alorilor show this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM
12:51.54alorildialing application in it (and no sound by using those either ;-)
12:51.55Elrondaloril - Heh, that's basicly my point. ;)
12:52.31ElrondI'm surprised, that finnish customs is worse than german.
12:54.15hrwin Poland it is a matter of luck. I got mine without problems. Other developer has to fight with customs (they opened package and refuse 0usd value)
12:54.24Elrondphilippe - I guess, you have to convince them, that you wont have any commercial gain due to the thing.
12:54.47philippeElrond: I hope I will get through to customs directly as I have DHL in between atm
12:55.10Elrondphilippe - Oh well.
12:55.13philippeAnd their contact persons email (well the first one) was incorrect
12:55.24hrwopenmoko-simplemediaplayer == old BMP...
12:56.02ElrondThey should have put 10usd value on it. ;)
12:56.03philippeare they actually going to ship lame? I thought lame could not be shipped in binary form.
12:56.07ElrondJust for fake. ;)
12:56.15daniloscustoms are more about spending money you earn in a different country, thus taking the value "out", and should in general be applied only when there is a local manufacturing process for the same type of things (that's the legal background and reasoning for them) so to stimulate domestic production over import
12:57.25Elronddanilos - Yeah, which is basicly okay. But kicking end users (which we basicly are) for it... is imho bad.
12:58.54ElrondSo next time use Sean-as-courier-service. ;o)
12:59.13danilosElrond: and that's usually due to custom officers being silly (I had the same problem when I received Nokia 770 in Serbia before it hit sales, because they assume you are lying, they kept it for two weeks so Nokia announced sales and they figured I wasn't :))
13:00.58rob_whehe nice , they even shipped extra rubbers for the ear plugs .. what a service
13:01.06alorilElrond: you said 13 hours ago that "<Elrond>    aevin - Some simple measurements of write performance on sd or nand were done... scroll up. ;)"
13:01.24alorildo you refer to this: "<alphaone>  scp via SSH to the SD card is running with 300kb/s" ?
13:01.35renihs:))
13:01.36Elrondaloril - Yeah. ;)
13:01.57renihsisnt that a bad measurement :) (cpu bottleneck too?)
13:02.08Elrondrenihs - Yes.
13:02.17Elrondrenihs - And it's going through buffer cache.
13:03.50ElrondBut you know, benchmarks are always crap. ;o)
13:04.13*** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
13:04.28*** part/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
13:04.35renihsaffirmative :)
13:10.03Elrondaloril - There are a few P0 owners now -- and they can't deny having an sd card, cause it's included -- so better measurements can be performed by any of them. ;)
13:10.06buzhow about dd if=/dev/zero of=sdcard ?
13:10.26noiddI'll do that for you
13:10.29noiddnp
13:10.34noiddright now
13:10.40noiddyou want me to write to the raw device?
13:10.41Elrondbuz - I think, this is close to the best.
13:11.23buznoidd: no, write to a file on the sdcard
13:11.25buzthats more realistic
13:11.28Elrondnoidd - I'd say yes.  Everything else measures "fs algorithms", "bufer cache" and whatnot.
13:11.41noiddOk, lemme find out what the SD device is :-)
13:12.05buzcheck if there is mkfs first
13:12.14buzelse you get an sd card that cant be formatted again ;)
13:12.54Elrondbuz - He'll compile mkfs in the worst case. :)
13:13.15noiddI'm at work so I don't have access to my compile box :-/
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13:13.40*** join/#openmoko SirCrow (n=sircrow@sd511685b.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
13:13.40alorilElrond: see http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245
13:14.39alorilso actually testing SD speed might not yet be 'possible'
13:14.45buzoh thats bad
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13:17.19alorildunno if this is all P0 devices or just one?
13:17.42hrwmy does not give sd access
13:17.58alphaonealoril: But it crashed after writing ~30MB to the card..
13:18.18*** join/#openmoko _buz (n=buz@dhcp-203-107-vpn.unizh.ch)
13:18.34noiddI can't find the SD device either
13:18.46CMInteresting rumor: http://simeons.wordpress.com/2007/03/04/the-real-google-phone/
13:18.53noiddI will confess tho I bend the MMC holder when I tried to open it
13:19.15alorilalphaone: how did you get SD device visible?
13:19.30Elrondnoidd - Huh. Is it that easy to break the sd holder?
13:20.05hrwElrond: its very thin
13:20.39noiddIts the same uSD holder you have in other cellphones
13:20.48noiddits my own incompetence, not a design flaw
13:21.42alphaonealoril: Yeah
13:21.50alphaonemodprobe
13:22.05alphaoneYou have to modprobe the driver
13:22.38noiddah, gotcha
13:23.09alphaoneI'll get the name for you in a sec
13:23.45noidds3cmci.ko
13:23.46alphaoneIt comes with a FAT partition that can't be mounted by the kernel
13:23.47noiddI would guess
13:23.48alphaoneyup
13:23.53SpeedEvilfind /lib/modules -type f -exec insmod \{} \;
13:24.11noiddhah, nice
13:24.24alphaoneSo you have to mke2fs /dev/mmcblk0p0
13:24.34alorilhmm... I guess P2 phone will need to include FAT too
13:24.37alphaoneprior to mounting it
13:24.48alphaonealoril: Probably...
13:24.50Stephmwalphaone: aye, vfat is necessary
13:24.55noiddI get a Bad Address on modprobe
13:25.00noiddI'll dig some
13:25.07SpeedEvilWhat's the state of the art 'sane filesystem over vfat' layer?
13:25.23SpeedEvilATM I've got an ext2 loopback blob on my keyring USB.
13:25.42alphaoneheh
13:27.05alphaoneI'm gone for a bit. Got to clean up the kitchen and my room. Our little hacking session left them in a rather devastating state.
13:27.19SpeedEvilIt's my last-line backup device.
13:27.40SpeedEvilIf my house completely burns down to the ground, and the buried data cache fails.
13:27.58SpeedEvilOr more likely, if I'm away.
13:28.35SpeedEvilSo it needs to be readable as possible.
13:30.38hrwhub 2-0:1.0: Cannot enable port 4.  Maybe the USB cable is bad?
13:30.43hrwargh usb
13:32.11Elrondhrw - What are you doing there?
13:32.47Elrondnoidd - (uSD holder) okay. So I should be careful anyway. :)
13:33.24hrwElrond: just have neo connected via usb
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13:35.30CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1273 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-core.patch gta01-inputdevice.patch):
13:35.30CIA-7openmoko: * Rename 911 GPIO/IRQ to AUX GPIO/IRQ
13:35.31CIA-7openmoko: * Give interrupts of gta01kbd driver better description
13:35.31CIA-7openmoko: * Add headphone jack switch support to gta01kbd
13:35.31CIA-7openmoko: * Fix input key reporting of gta01kbd (no keybits were set)
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13:38.32alorilupdated  [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]], any other results/info known and not there (or elsewhere wiki)?
13:39.41alorilquite unlike traditional reviews ;-)
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13:46.20aloril(no new info) P0 blog: http://atulchitnis.net/diary/showentry/421
13:47.39alorilblog about mobile phones and moko (no new info): http://www.microplop.com/2007/the-decline-of-mobile-phones/
13:47.49aloril"... Windows Mobile OS phones. Devices running this operating system have a bootstrapping-style chip which prevents not only the OS from being replaced ... "
13:48.02alorilumm.. do WinCE mobiles actually have hardware to prevent hacking?
13:49.15Elrondaloril - Hmm, I thought, wince had no security, which makes booting linux from sd so easy?!
13:49.36alorilyeah, maybe blog author got it wrong (I don't know)
13:51.44aloril(blog about voip and missing hardware in Linux phones http://sayspy.blogspot.com/2007/03/is-voip-on-cell-phone-so-hard.html )
13:55.52_buzp1 neo isnt particularly suited towards VoIP either
13:56.06_buzunless you have BT-PAN nearby
13:56.19_buzwhich is something i have never seen in use
13:56.29Elrondbt-pan?
13:56.54_buzpersonal area network
13:57.10ElrondAhh.
13:57.43Elrondgprs has not enough bandwidth and is probably more expensive then gsm?
13:57.52_buzand it has lousy pings
13:58.21_buzof all half assed solutions towards VoIP wifi seems easily the best
13:58.41_buzaside of it being a damn power hog of course
14:00.45DesktopMagprs ping = about the same as fiber ping to the moon
14:02.15_buzslightly better
14:03.15_buzmaybe
14:04.01alorilhmm.. GPRS+ that would be just like GPRS, but would not guarantee packet order would be better (why implemenet TCP twice? and especially bad for UDP (VoIP)
14:04.10SuNPings of roughly 1.3 seconds then? :)
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14:06.24aloril"I wonder why I have such a better feeling about the OpenMoko than the Nokia n800"  http://www.kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/openmoko_and_n800.html
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14:33.50CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1274 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/src/today-main.c:
14:33.50CIA-7openmoko: * Retrieve todays events from libecal (based on patch from Dodji Seketeli)
14:33.50CIA-7openmoko: * Update indenting
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14:43.00rd_aloril, considering the the spec & price, n800 would be a better choice imho
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14:53.40alorilrd_: needs separate phone though
14:57.25CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1275 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (configure.ac src/today-main.c):
14:57.25CIA-7openmoko: * openmoko-today/configure.ac: Check for libebook and libecal
14:57.25CIA-7openmoko: * openmoko-today/src/today-main.c: Use %I rather than %l in strftime to prevent
14:57.25CIA-7openmoko:  an ISO C warning.
15:00.21Harlekinbrr, C for desktop gui apps
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15:02.31StephmwHarlekin: there's always http://www.micronovae.com/CSP.html
15:03.22HarlekinStephmw: but apparently C is used for openmoko desktop gui apps
15:04.02Stephmwiirc that's what GTK uses under the hood, no?
15:07.54HarlekinStephmw: still its wrong for gui apps
15:08.00KeroSo? scripting lang on top, noone ever sees the C :)
15:08.02HarlekinStephmw: gtk has c++ bindings
15:08.35hrwcu
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15:10.44StephmwHarlekin: I'm not arguing for any particular one - I prefer that Java oddity ;)
15:11.32HarlekinStephmw: ?
15:12.04StephmwHarlekin: I'll eventually try to replace the GTK UI with a Java-based one
15:12.21Harlekinoh, oddity in a different sense than I thought
15:12.47HarlekinI though about the java anomalies
15:12.48Harlekin.-)
15:13.32Harlekinare there java bindings for gtk?
15:14.42koen|labHarlekin: yes
15:15.20Harlekininteresting
15:15.24Harlekinvia jni?
15:16.00Hadakahmh, is 2G about the current limit for microSD cards? microSD was what the phone had, right?
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15:17.24Harlekinflorian: I want especially manageble software
15:17.53Harlekinacademic education software development
15:18.06florianHarlekin: install DOS ;)
15:18.20Harlekinflorian: for some great C stuff?
15:18.38florianHarlekin: no, for Turbo Basic
15:18.48StephmwHarlekin: yeah, via JNI
15:18.55Harlekinclose to C in chances to make errors and have security problems
15:19.13StephmwHarlekin: there's also an existing full set of GTK peers for GNU Classpath
15:19.50HarlekinStephmw: is this still active?
15:20.05Harlekinunder which license is the real java now?
15:20.26zeckeHarlekin: phoneME is GPL
15:20.34robtaylorHarlekin: gpl
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15:20.55CMHarlekin: Browse around http://research.operationaldynamics.com/bzr/java-gnome/mainline/src/java/org/gnome/gtk/
15:20.57Harlekinzecke: thought so too
15:21.13Harlekinwas just wondering about the statement: " is a GNU project to create free core class libraries "
15:21.19Harlekinwhich sounds like "more free" than java
15:21.20StephmwHarlekin: http://object-refinery.com/classpath/statcvs/
15:21.30Harlekinzecke: and jvm?
15:21.31CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1276 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/ (2 files in 2 dirs): upstream now compiles fine again, get rid of our pl.po kludge
15:21.40StephmwHarlekin: funnily enough, Sun are releasing the whole Java under the same license as GNU Classpath
15:21.52Harlekin:-)
15:21.55StephmwHarlekin: we had a great meet up at FOSDEM
15:21.59robtaylorStephmw: that was kinda deliberate, you know ;)
15:22.04zeckeHarlekin: AFAIK phoneME contains CDC(?) which is GPL as well
15:22.06Harlekinrobtaylor: i think so too
15:22.07Stephmwrobtaylor: surely not!? :)
15:22.17robtaylorheh
15:22.25Harlekinbut a great success for the gnu classpath stuff
15:22.26Stephmwbut everyone's happy with it
15:23.09Harlekinzecke: if phoneME is gpl, it is impossible to write closed source apps for it, right?
15:23.14robtayloractually they took a long time to decide on GPL versis the apache license
15:23.14alorilHadaka: whether 4GB microSD work on Neo1973 is currently unknown, they might work
15:23.37zeckeHarlekin: no, it is not. It has the same license as GNU classpath
15:23.51Stephmwzecke: I'm not sure about that
15:23.51Harlekinzecke: Harlekin: phoneME is GPL <- so not gpl
15:23.53zeckeHarlekin: GPL + exception (check the testimonal of rms and eben molgan)
15:24.02Harlekinah, ok
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15:24.19Stephmwzecke: reading... I thought J2ME was GPL, and J2SE was GPL+e
15:24.21CM"The classpath exception" :)
15:25.37Stephmwzecke: "The phoneME project code is released under the GNU General Public License Version 2 (GPLv2)"
15:25.54Stephmwzecke: it's done on purpose to force openness, or private licensing
15:27.11Stephmwzecke: there are concerns this limits which MIDlets can be run on a GPL phoneME
15:27.19Stephmwzecke: ... but I'm leaving that to the Sun guys to untangle
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15:28.17StephmwHarlekin: also, there's the beginnings of a MIDP2 implementation on top of SDL, http://midpath.thenesis.org/en/Start%20Page
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15:29.43HarlekinStephmw: now you just need an efficient implementation for arm devices
15:29.51Harlekinor similar cpus
15:30.14zeckeStephmw: http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/java/faq.jsp#b3, okay JDK has the classpath exception
15:30.33zeckeHarlekin: so the current arm code needs improvements?
15:31.11Hadakaaloril: thanks
15:31.13Harlekinzecke: did you try it?
15:32.32zeckeHarlekin: well you say you need an efficient implementation, which would mean the current one is not efficient enough
15:33.18Harlekinlast time I saw the standard jvm from sun on an arm device it was quite slow
15:34.33Stephmwright, the RI from sun is pretty slow
15:34.49StephmwCacaoVM that runs with Classpath has a JIT... on arm too :)
15:34.59Harlekinand the efficient ones are closed source
15:35.12Stephmwother licensees would likely enable jazelle acceleration too
15:35.33Stephmw... which open source VMs can't because the specs are closed
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16:13.25CIA-7openmoko: 03thomas * r1277 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/src/today-main.c:
16:13.26CIA-7openmoko: * Connect signal to launcher buttons in openmoko-today
16:13.26CIA-7openmoko: * Add some comments
16:13.54alphaoneGotta drop off some work at work. Cu
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16:14.34koen|labseems like good progress is made on userspace today
16:18.40florianvery good
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16:29.24Clintmtpaint upstream sent thanks for the configure patch
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16:30.26Stephmwthat's always nice
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16:38.53rob_whmm am i missing a "Add" button in the phonebook ?
16:50.27sannesrob_w: don't pretend that you have any friends.... you one of the p0 folks?
16:51.29sannesrob_w: if so how is the sound?
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16:58.06sanneskoen|lab: have you made any calls with the neo?
16:58.30koensannes: not yet, I have no spare SIM card
16:58.40koen(and have been locked in the lab the past few days)
16:59.15sannesah, just curious on the sound quality and such
16:59.25sannesand feel
17:00.23rob_wthe ui is definitly a winning horse !
17:00.56rob_wthe contrast of those colours ( red/orange/yellow) to the black casing is tremendous
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17:06.21guaquaany video footage of the ui?
17:06.32guaquaand using the touchscreen etc
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17:10.15noidde
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18:00.59Elrondalphaone - Who in your group owns the Siemens ME45?
18:01.47guaquaME45 <3
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18:03.51Elrondguaqua - What's up?
18:04.34guaquanot much
18:06.03ElrondWhat does "<3" mean?
18:06.37twistxit means less than 3 obviously
18:08.19guaquaor turn your head counterwise and spot a heart :/
18:08.33guaquai liked my siemens me45
18:08.42ElrondAhh. :-)
18:08.52ElrondA me45 is my current phone. :-))
18:09.32guaquait was cool. mine just broke
18:09.42guaquagtg
18:09.59guaquait said it had network connectivity when it actually didn't have
18:11.17MBitterHi, I have problems viewing the wiki in Konqueror. Only the 'article' button is visible. Anyone else has such problems?
18:11.17alorilMBitter: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
18:11.59ElrondMBitter - If I enlage fonts in firefox (Ctrl-+), I get the same.
18:12.41ElrondMBitter - Normally, the other buttons are a little "hidden", just a few percent of them at the top is shown. And when one puts the mouse over that little, the rest of the buttom is shown.
18:12.41MBitternow I can see the upper-half of the other buttons
18:13.03ElrondI guess, _that_ is normal. ;)
18:13.29MBitterok, thx. The zoom was the Problem (have to zoom out under 100%)
18:13.58ElrondI should check, if there's a bugzilla target for "website".
18:16.22*** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
18:16.28ElrondThere is a bugzilla category...
18:16.54ElrondMBitter - If I create a bug for firefox, can you then add a comment "I can reproduce on konqueror"?
18:17.20MBittersure
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18:20.28ElrondMBitter - Okay, give a me two minute to check, if already a bug exists and create an account for me.
18:22.57ElrondHmm, I probably should ask my admin to exclude openmoko from greylisting. ;o=
18:23.20rob_wwhat is the adc_read message at the gta01 ? it fills my logs and want to get rid of it
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18:23.59koenrob_w: most like touchscreen debugging
18:24.02koenor battery
18:24.23koenthe microphone, but that would be an alsa error
18:24.43rob_wthen my bet is battery as it polls it each time ..
18:24.44rtprob_w: it's the adc for the battery
18:25.02rob_wso its the battery applet i loaded into the panel , lets see
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18:25.46rtprob_w: I've made the same 'mistake' ... and the driver message can't be disabled at run-time. You have to rebuild the kernel module
18:25.47rob_wah thats better *note remove debug on battery
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18:27.29rob_wmatchbox-panel font made me grep my glasses , after i havent used them for a year ;-)
18:27.30Elrondkoen - Did you see SpeedEvil and my request last night for some pics? ;o)
18:28.08Elrondrob_w - Now you can imagine how I feel with normal phones. ;)
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18:40.40rob_wso koen what is the general uptodo list ? anything special or is the order just "Hack as much as you can ?"
18:40.53pnaso mass market in september huh?
18:40.53alorilpna: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
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18:41.25zeckelater
18:41.30koenrob_w: "finish matlab assignments, sleep, board plane [...] sleep"
18:42.12rob_wthat is your private todo, waht is that matlab ? is it some sort of test you need to succeed ?
18:43.05balrog-kunit's closedsource program :)
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18:44.17Elrondrob_w - See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review , bugzilla, and fetch anything you like.
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19:03.54XVampireXDoes OpenMoko have any VoIP applications?
19:04.35*** join/#openmoko Snapple42 (n=IceChat7@h216-18-80-132.gtconnect.net)
19:04.42ElrondXVampireX - I don't think so.
19:04.49cjbXVampireX: how would that work?  there's no high-bandwidth connection.
19:05.10*** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd)
19:05.18LuitvDso, any p0 devices recieved yet?
19:05.22Elrondcjb - openmoko could have a voip-app. But it wouldn't make sense on the current target of OM. ;)
19:05.37ElrondLuitvD - Many. Search the wiki for "p0 review"
19:05.47LuitvDah
19:05.48LuitvD:)
19:05.52LuitvDi will
19:05.54ElrondLuitvD - koen has cool pix on flickr.
19:06.01*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@wlan138116.mobiel.utwente.nl)
19:06.04XVampireXcjb, No idea, but I know smartphones like having VoIP support :D
19:07.11*** join/#openmoko greentux_ (n=lemke@Z4fab.z.pppool.de)
19:07.42Psi_had an idea for text entry on the neo, im sure someone has thought of it before though. You have a tiny fullsize keyboard on say half the neo screen (this would normally be far to small to directly touch and get a character) So my idea is that you use the button on the side to accept the key. So the user moves there finger around on the touchkbd until the correct letter appears then presses the side button to accept it.
19:08.10SpeedEvilthat's going to be even slower IMO.
19:08.24Psi_than what
19:08.42SpeedEvilclicking the side button, than some other means.
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19:09.23Psi_it would be faster to use a styles
19:09.37Psi_but who wants to use that on a phone
19:09.56dullard_Psi_, why not drag the finger until the right letter appears?
19:09.56alorildullard_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
19:09.57XVampireXElrond: Actually OpenMoko should have a VoIP application, it's a choice you let people have :)
19:10.02Psi_dullard_, thats what i mean
19:10.08Psi_exactly what i mean
19:10.10dullard_oh sorry lol
19:10.13XVampireXI hear alot of people are excited about stuff like Skype on their mobiles
19:10.16Robot101openmoko should use telepathy for VOIP :)
19:10.23XVampireXYeah
19:10.25Robot101we just released our SIP backend
19:10.34Robot101well, Nokia just released it, but we've been working on it with them
19:10.41XVampireXYou work on Telepathy?
19:10.42StephmwRobot101: telepathy-enabled?
19:10.51dullard_Psi_, I mean no side button, just release your finger
19:10.52Robot101XVampireX: yes
19:10.55StephmwRobot101: S60 or S40?
19:11.00XVampireXWhat's the state of jingle?
19:11.06bipolarRobot101: for the contacts app on the n800? :D
19:11.11Psi_dullard_, could try that, but i dont know that it would be very reliable
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19:11.48Robot101XVampireX: gtalk has worked for over a year, jingle audio/video calls for the past few months
19:12.04dullard_well, you only release it when the correct letter appears. seems sensible to me
19:12.06Robot101Stephmw: neither, Linux - the 770 and N800 internet tablets use Telepathy for their IM/VOIP
19:12.08XVampireXRobot101: I can't get things like tapioca working....
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19:12.14StephmwRobot101: ahhh
19:12.49Robot101XVampireX: hm, well we can make calls using a pretty small python script, works OK :)
19:12.50Psi_dullard_, yes but some touchscreens tend to no like dragging they click/release alot as you move
19:12.56bipolarRobot101: definatly need sip on the n800. I'm using the Gizmo client, but it doesn't integrate well.
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19:13.19bipolarRobot101: that and Aim/Yahoo/Msn integration would be awesome.
19:13.20LuitvDcounter
19:13.20alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 16:46:39 (23.699 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (503)
19:13.24XVampireXRobot101: Is there anything on Linux you're recommend then?
19:13.30bipolarwait... this isn't #maemo
19:13.30dullard_Psi_, really?? the one on my universal is fine with dragging... I assume it's similar technology
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19:13.43XVampireXyou'd^
19:13.46Psi_if your way works then yes it would be better
19:14.21Psi_i just dont have a neo, so cant try it :P
19:14.22Robot101XVampireX: the gossip folks are looking at merging voip/video support
19:14.22Robot101XVampireX: (using telepathy)
19:14.39XVampireXRobot101: I heard that, but don't know how much they already did, I saw somoe pics for first Video support :P
19:15.08Robot101XVampireX: well they did a release with telepathy support included, one of the devs is looking at merging the voice/video stuff atm
19:15.42robtaylorPsi_: ever seen the IBM Simon keyboard?
19:15.44XVampireXAlright, but anything in the KDE world? :P
19:15.47Psi_nope
19:16.11Robot101XVampireX: ask the Kopete guys how their Telepathy backend is going :)
19:16.25XVampireXAlright
19:16.34rob_wPsi_, for click/release/click sequences you normally use debouncing filters
19:16.59Psi_as well as having picture of letters, you could have pictures of commonly used words,  and, to, for, etc..
19:17.16robtaylorPsi_: 3/2 squares and abutton. the 6 squares are filled with the most likely next characters (from a language model, like in dasher)
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19:17.34Psi_interesting
19:17.44robtaylorand a button press gives teh the next most probably 6 characters
19:18.15robtaylorsome guys did a study of input methods back in 96, hang on, i'll find the url
19:19.38robtaylorhttp://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/rd/0%2C386674%2C1%2C0.25%2CDownload/http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/papers/cs/18474/http:zSzzSzwww.clopinet.comzSzisabellezSzPaperszSzusability.pdf/usability-study-of-text.pdf
19:20.27robtaylorthough that method came out slower than even a stylused mini keyboard :/
19:20.30cjbrobtaylor: .. and then there's always dasher :)
19:20.39rob_wi know a app called speedscript ,, it takes some learing curve but  then you get really fast only with movements
19:20.48robtaylorcjb: yeah, the main problem with dasher is screen real-estate
19:21.26cjbrobtaylor: yeah, I think we need 150 pixels vertical to do well.
19:21.31robtaylorrob_w: look nice
19:21.41cjbhttp://www.dasher.org.uk/TryJavaDasherNow.html
19:21.56robtaylorcjb: i was kinda thinking of a '2-d 'tunneling' version of sahser
19:22.11rob_wdasher is handicapped people ;-)
19:22.26cjbrob_w: nah.
19:22.28SpeedEvilThat was sort-of-similar to the http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/004007.html
19:22.39SpeedEvilcomment I made - not the dasher.
19:22.41cjbrob_w: it's for anyone who doesn't have a full keyboard.  which includes cellphones.
19:22.46cjbrob_w: oh>
19:22.46SpeedEvilgesture interface, with hints
19:22.47cjb?
19:23.11balrog-kunthere was an interesting input method for touchscreens called MessageEaseST
19:23.22robtaylorrob_w: speedscript is patented in both us and europe though
19:23.23balrog-kunbut i'm afraid it's patented
19:23.24rob_whttp://www.speedscript.biz/
19:23.34balrog-kunhttp://www.exideas.com/ME/faq.html#201
19:23.41dullard_I've recreated messageease in squeak... oops maybe I shouldnt have
19:23.50rob_wrobtaylor, i know the ceo ,,maybe its time to get the contact warmed up again
19:24.22buzdasher is way too busy
19:24.32buztrying to catch the chars makes me angry
19:24.32robtaylorrob_w: heh ;)
19:24.44cjbbuz: haha :) you'll get the hang of it..
19:24.54SpeedEvilThe nice thought about the idea I had was that it's designed to start out with 0-9 keys, and then directions off them.
19:25.03robtaylorrob_w: i dont think their business model would survice open sourcing..
19:25.14SpeedEvilBut by adding anohter stroke that represents the initial vector, you could have generic gestures.
19:25.19cjb(Dasher is Free and unpatented, fwiw.)
19:25.37buzi like the swedish dudes popup thingy more
19:25.56robtaylorSpeedEvil: i didnt really understand your post, tbh :/
19:26.04SpeedEvilSigh.
19:26.23SpeedEvilWhere did it start to go wrong?
19:27.03SpeedEvilBasically, you have keys - say 0-9 that are the start of gestures.
19:27.03LuitvDdid anyone run openmoko on an HTC Wizard yet?
19:27.23koenLuitvD: only on htcmagician and htcuniversal iirc
19:27.24LuitvDgetting an HTC Wizard from a friend next week
19:27.26robtaylorSpeedEvil: ah, i think thats the bit i migssed
19:27.38LuitvDkoen: universal has VGA right?
19:27.39robtaylorSpeedEvil: seems odd starting with 0-9, tbh
19:27.41buzhttp://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ this one i like best so far
19:27.46buzor possibly ibm's shapewriter
19:28.08SpeedEvilThe idea is that you have a numeric keypad that lets you enter text
19:28.12buzLuitvD: afaik, linux barely boots on the wizard so far
19:28.37LuitvDbuz: did you get any response on the e28 stuff yet?
19:28.38buzhttp://linwizard.sourceforge.net/
19:28.46buzno
19:28.47robtaylorbuz: seen the hex-keyboard as well?
19:28.56LuitvDhtc wizard is the 9100 right?
19:28.59buzthe one above?
19:29.09SpeedEvilPart of the problem is a lot of this is only really testable on a touchscreen, and I don't have one.
19:29.15buzi actually have on
19:29.24buzbut it0s 12" and pen only
19:29.38buznot really useful for finger based testing
19:29.47robtaylorreally i want an input method that works in place
19:30.10robtaylorso i dont have to waste screen real-estate to a pop-up keyboard/pad/writing area
19:30.25SpeedEvilYeah - that'd be a variant of teh initial idea in this case, but it'd start with 5 directions basically, rather than 9 keys.
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19:31.19SpeedEvilstroke to the left in an input area, hold, and up pops the 'left stroke' next possibilities help page
19:31.38robtaylorholding is pretty slow
19:31.47SpeedEvilYou only hold if you don't know.
19:31.58SpeedEvilIf you know, you simply carry on with the stroke to its end.
19:32.15SpeedEvilEven if it's a rare 4-turn input - say 'pizza' or ~
19:33.00noiddI'm gonna be buying one of those laser keyboards cos they look sexy :-)
19:33.16SpeedEvilI hope they work as well as they look cool.
19:33.21SpeedEvilAlas - I suspect not.
19:33.29robtaylornoidd: apprently they look great,but dont actuallywork well
19:34.25SpeedEvilI've done the tests.
19:34.29SpeedEvilI had a ZX81.
19:34.35prpplaguehehe
19:35.07SpeedEvil40? key 5 meta-keys, all of the feel of a sheet of cardboard.
19:38.05buzall the tests say the laser thingies are unusable
19:38.09buzthey work, but you dont wanna use them
19:38.43hpaZX81 was a uniquely horrible machine (actually, the ZX80 was worse, of course; ZX81 being a minor rev of ZX80)
19:39.04*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
19:39.59hpaSomeone actually managed to write a checkers game complete with AI player on an unextended ZX81
19:40.04hpa*That* was a feat!
19:40.19hpaGiven that ZX81 had 1K RAM *including* the frame buffer...
19:40.47PBeckhm anybody a idea how expensive would be the neo1973 in euro?
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19:41.08PBeckor have anybody official infos ;)
19:41.46PBeckwe dicuss this topic for a few days but we found no answer ^^
19:41.48SpeedEvil1K basic bytecode though
19:41.49Elrond~change 350 USD to EUR
19:42.11PBeckElrond: would this the end price? Not expensiver?
19:42.28xkr47~change 350 USD to FIM
19:42.42xkr47kauhee summa!
19:42.47helb~change 350 USD to CZK
19:42.51ElrondPBeck - Add shipping and handling... and if you live in a buerocratic area... or a area with corruption tendencies, add customs.
19:42.52PBeckthis would be a very cool price. a cheap phone ^^
19:43.02helbhmmm...
19:43.08PBeckshipping and handling => 20 euro?
19:43.11PBeckor more?
19:43.16SpeedEvilYou could also tradeoff the memory bandwidth for processor speed. As by default it painted the screen using the CPU to address it.
19:43.27SpeedEvilDunno.
19:43.37buzPBeck: we dont know yet
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19:43.42buzsupposedly theres an european source
19:43.43SpeedEvilIf they do keep to the $350 price in europe, that would be _very_ nice.
19:43.50woglindecounter
19:43.51alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 16:16:09 (23.678 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (504)
19:43.56SpeedEvilRather than having to eat the 20% import duty or so.
19:44.06xkr47e <-> eur
19:44.06buzi doubt they will eat the 20% vat
19:44.19buzif they do, i want 20% off on mine
19:44.23Stephmwlol
19:44.31SpeedEvilHowver, shipping in a package of 20-30 will save a fair bit on shipping.
19:44.49buzor i'll order it go germany and pick it up there
19:44.50SpeedEvilwhich could be passed onto users.
19:44.55buzsaving 13% vat still
19:44.58PBeckxkr47: yes i thinks so, too ;)
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19:48.57high-rezcounter
19:48.57alorilhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 16:11:02 (23.674 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (505)
19:50.36PBeckhum where is the phase 2?
19:50.47xkr47gone with the wind ;)
19:50.48SpeedEvilOff in the mists of time.
19:51.29xkr47.. "it got squeezed too tight between phase 1+ and phase 2+ and imploded into nothingness"
19:52.08*** join/#openmoko Naked (i=naked@62.142.249.112)
19:52.41buzwhat is phase 2+
19:52.45buzend user?
19:52.54SpeedEvil2 is end user
19:53.00SpeedEvilI guess 2+ is whatever happens after
19:53.07buzthis whole phase changing business is confusing me
19:54.00koenI don't think they intended 3 phases
19:54.10koenbut got forced into it due to all the challenges
19:54.32SpeedEvilIt's _very_ unlikely that the first hardware will be bug-free
19:54.38SpeedEvilso P0 will almost never be p1
19:54.45SpeedEvilUnless you get real lucky.
19:54.55SpeedEvilTehn you want to get it out to devs
19:55.27SpeedEvilAfter 6 months, it's likely that prices have changed, so you want to re-roll the hardware before it goes public
19:55.30buzactually they have 4 phases now
19:55.49buzand i still wonder if current neo will ever ship in volume
19:55.51SpeedEvilyeah - I suspect the additional 'P1.5' came in due to delay.
19:55.58SpeedEvila
19:56.10Nakedwhat's P1.5?
19:56.10alorilNaked: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
19:56.13SpeedEvilAll I really care drastically about is getting a reliable P1 phone.
19:56.24SpeedEvilP1.5 is the unofficial name given to the P1
19:56.25buzi care more about what p1.5 will offer
19:56.36SpeedEvilphone being launched with 'something extra' in Junish
19:56.47PBeckok xkr47 and SpeedEvil ;) We can self count the days to phase2 ;)
19:56.50SpeedEvilI suspect I may have one of the first P1's with wifi.
19:57.10SpeedEvilAs I've got a wifi dongle that looks to be a fit for a replacement for the BT module.
19:57.17xkr47:)
19:57.34xkr47PBeck, now look what you started ;)
19:58.03buzi stlil wonder exactly how that p1.5 device is supposed to work in june
19:58.39PBeckxkr47: what? :P
19:58.43SpeedEvilI suspect we'll see an integrated BT/WIFI chip of some form.
19:58.55noiddrobtaylor: (about the laser keyboard) I've seen reviews both ways.  It sounds like in most reviews I read they had unrealistic hopes.
19:58.55Elrondbuz - Why would sending to germany save you anything?
19:58.56xkr47PBeck, nm, just kidding:)
19:58.59SpeedEvilMaybe taken off the USB bus, as that doesn't work properly in slow mode.
19:59.11buzElrond: only if fic eats the vat
19:59.22buzi can then reclaim the difference to switzerland's vat
19:59.23noiddrobtaylor: Its like they expect that because it projects an almost full size keyboard that it will react like one.  
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19:59.39buzit does NOT react like one
19:59.40noiddrobtaylor" Basically, as long as I can type on it as well as I could a thumbkeyboard - i'm happy.
19:59.55buzyou cant
19:59.58SpeedEvilI wonder if you had a high power IR laser, you could feel the heat of the keys.
20:00.00PBeckxkr47: :P
20:00.01buzfor starters you need a flat surface
20:00.10SpeedEvilOf course, that'd need insane power.
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20:00.20noiddadmittedly that can be hard to find.
20:00.20buzanother use for that v8
20:00.35SpeedEvilDon't kid around about that.
20:00.57SpeedEvilYou are speaking to someone who has fitted an internal combustion engine to a notebook floppy bay.
20:01.25SpeedEvilAlas, I diddn't have a camera at the time.
20:01.50SpeedEvilIt was a Cox .049 'Bee' motor, 9000RPM or so, running on glow fuel, with a small motor as a generator.
20:02.00*** join/#openmoko Kero (n=kero@89.98.218.127)
20:02.26SpeedEvilI did run the laptop off it for a bit, but I decided on reflection not to put it in the laptop.
20:02.35PBeckso bye i go offline ;)
20:02.40SpeedEvilDue to the oil in the exhaust.
20:02.54buzthe heat must do wonders to the cplastic
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20:03.09SpeedEvilActually - I had a large fan on it - it diddn't get that hot.
20:03.17SpeedEvilThe power was only some 50W
20:03.51buzbut tiny ICE are oh so efficient
20:04.26SpeedEvil:) Not so much that, more that it all got blown out along with the exhaust.
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20:07.52Nakedhmh, what is the debug board used for? eg. what is impossible without the debug board?
20:08.06SpeedEvilUnbricking the phone if you break u-booy
20:08.08SpeedEvilt
20:08.17SpeedEvilYou should never usually need it.
20:08.19Nakedah
20:08.29SpeedEvilEven if doing kernel development.
20:08.47noiddMaybe i'd be better off with one of these then: http://www.mobileplanet.com/p.aspx?i=138010
20:08.55noiddbut laser keyobard cool!
20:09.30ElrondSpeedEvil - For kernel development it might be useful, as you get the console.
20:10.58*** join/#openmoko fsniper (n=yalazi@85.101.126.189)
20:11.02fsniperHello
20:11.44SpeedEvilYou can get usb-console though
20:11.53SpeedEvilwhich does almost the same thing AIUI.
20:12.27noiddhello fsniper
20:14.01ElrondSpeedEvil - Can one redirect kernel OOPS to usb-serial?!
20:14.24fsniperi can't compile openmoko with beginers Makefile can anybody help me?
20:14.25alorilfsniper: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
20:15.05SpeedEvilI've seen an OOPS - floppy/hard disk thingy.
20:15.14SpeedEvilAnd I know there are net things.
20:15.21SpeedEvilI don't know if they work over usb-net.
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20:18.20ElrondAhh.
20:18.40*** join/#openmoko Lacrimosa (n=me@client-82-199-198-254.speedy.sellinet.net)
20:18.45ElrondI had thought, it would only work on serial, as serial is easy to code and will likely continue to work in case of big emergency.
20:19.19SpeedEvilOOPS - SMS should be pretty easy to code.
20:19.24SpeedEvilIt is serial after all.
20:19.54*** part/#openmoko Lacrimosa (n=me@client-82-199-198-254.speedy.sellinet.net)
20:20.24fsnipermonotone kills my system :)
20:20.28*** join/#openmoko wansti (n=wansti@b062.apm.etc.tu-bs.de)
20:20.45wanstihi
20:21.02ElrondMBitter - You still there?  http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=248
20:21.15wanstii have improved thereisnophone.mp3 a little (http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/thereisnophone.mp3)
20:21.33wanstiit should sound a little better on the Neo now
20:21.55ElrondHow's sound on the neo anyway? Can it replace my non-existent getto-blaster? ;o)
20:22.09wanstiany of you lucky P0 phone owners, please try it and give me some feedback
20:22.25Elrondwansti - BTW: Use ogg, if you can. :-)
20:22.35alphaonewansti: Hi. Will do :-)
20:22.35Elrondplease.
20:22.55alphaoneElrond: We tried ogg at first but it was really slow
20:22.58Elrondalphaone - Who's the Siemens ME45 owner in your group?
20:23.05wanstiElrond: no problem... i used mp3 for now because ogg apparently didn't work too well yesterday
20:23.07ElrondHuh. Fun.
20:23.14alphaoneElrond: That would be wansti
20:23.15wanstiElrond: that's me :-)
20:23.23Elrondwansti - Okay, then stay to mp3 for now.
20:23.28buzyou'll get sued by evil alcatel-lucent
20:23.31SpeedEvilI suspect someone will make a simple serial plug that plugs into the debug connecotr.
20:23.40wanstithe final version will be ogg, of course
20:24.00ElrondSpeedEvil - It needs to do power onversion, you know. :-)
20:24.19SpeedEvil3.3V RS232 works on much stuff.
20:24.21wanstiElrond: what about the ME45?
20:24.26Elrondwansti - How does the neo feel (robustness, etc, overall) compared to the ME45?
20:24.28SpeedEvilAll you have to do is buffer it.
20:24.33Elrondwansti - I have a me45. :-)
20:24.39wanstii see :-)
20:25.03Elronds/power/voltage/ ;)
20:25.06wanstiwell... i love the ME45's sturdy shell
20:25.19ElrondBut yes, a simple max*-usb-to-3.3V-rs232 will do.
20:25.40alphaonewansti: downloading now
20:25.47wanstimy guess would be that it could take a little more damage than the Neo... but the Neo looks pretty robust, too
20:26.03buzfear not, ars technica will try to destroy it
20:26.08Elrondwansti - Yeah, me too. I accidently let my fall 1m. It works still like a charm.
20:26.18buzi'd be shocked if it didnt
20:26.32SpeedEvilYou need 12V RS232 for a tiny minority of stuff.
20:26.54SpeedEvilStill a vanishingly small quantity of stuff that doesn't work at 5V.
20:26.59wanstiElrond: actually, I had problems with the display not working at all once... I cracked the whole thing open and assembled it again without doing anything else... and it worked perfectly ever since :-)
20:27.05*** join/#openmoko oskude (n=osku@dslb-084-058-213-143.pools.arcor-ip.net)
20:27.11SpeedEvilAnd if you use the direct batery voltage, 99% of it'll work at 4.2
20:27.14SpeedEvil(full charge)
20:28.58*** join/#openmoko mave_pan (n=me@dD5763251.access.telenet.be)
20:29.46Elrondwansti - But the neo does still feel robust and will happily live in my trouser pocket?
20:30.21wanstiElrond: a sturdy case is something I pay quite some attention to when I buy hardware... the Neo looks quite good in that aspect
20:30.48ElrondCool. :-)
20:31.07buzElrond: you want a protective sheet on top of the touchscreen
20:31.33SpeedEvils/the/any/
20:31.37Elrondbuz - Yeah. Any suggestions where to get something useful not too expensive?
20:31.48SpeedEvilLook on ebay for something of the right size.
20:31.49buzdunno
20:31.50buzeabay
20:31.58wanstiyeah... the quality of the screen is awesome... you don't want to ruin that with fingerprints and scratches :-)
20:31.59SpeedEvil'screen protector'
20:32.01buzor persuade sean to ship them with the device
20:32.09*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
20:32.13buzthey shouldnt cost much in volume
20:32.54ElrondHmmm, yeah. If they include a fancy stylus, three screen protectors shouldn't really be that expensive.
20:33.10buzthe stylus is 1.60usd on ebay ;)
20:33.17SpeedEvil+ shipping.
20:33.39Elrondbuz - Yeah, I know. But the protectors shouldn't be much more, no?
20:33.40*** part/#openmoko XVampireX (n=serge@unaffiliated/xvampirex)
20:33.46buzmuch cheaper
20:33.52buzbasically its a bit of plastic foil
20:34.10*** join/#openmoko pna (n=pna@87.253.117.157)
20:34.27ElrondRight.
20:34.58fsniperdoes gsm work on p0 devices?
20:35.17Elrondfsniper - Some basic things seemt to work.
20:35.25Elrond... like ringing. ;o)
20:36.29Elrondbuz - I'm pondering mailing sean. :)
20:36.38buzmail the ml first
20:37.10Elrondcommunity?
20:37.20buzprobably
20:37.35buzi much rather have the plastic thingies than the pouch
20:37.52Elrondbuz - For me drop the lanyard. ;)
20:38.05buzyeah that one is totally useless
20:38.13fsniperElrond: :) so neither gprs? did anyone used it for voice com?
20:38.13buzdrop the hole while we're at it
20:39.13*** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161)
20:41.26wanstisounds a lot better than yesterday
20:41.58wanstiany suggestions on where to put them in the wiki?
20:42.09CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1278 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb): use http, not https
20:42.37*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
20:42.52Elrondwansti - How's sound on the neo anyway? Can it replace my non-existent getto-blaster? ;o)
20:43.06wanstiElrond: no way :-P
20:43.10SpeedEvilIt's 2*32mm speakers.
20:43.25SpeedEvilBased on that - in a quiet house, you can hear voice from several rooms away.
20:43.29buzthats quite big for a phone
20:43.34SpeedEvilAnd understand it.
20:43.48SpeedEvilActually - they are probably more like 25mm
20:44.47wanstiit sounds okay... you can't expect much bass boost, of course :-)
20:46.15wanstihttp://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/sms_g015.mp3
20:46.35wanstithis one sounds almost as good on the Neo as it sounds on "real" speakers
20:46.44buzmaybe you could somehow use the hole for bass reflex
20:47.02SpeedEvilYeah - you need to drop everything under 400Hz or so for mobile speakers.
20:47.29wanstiyeah... i'm not gonna play Heavy Metal on that :-P
20:47.54CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1279 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c: make AT%CPI parse tolerant to empty fields
20:51.29*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
20:51.46fsniperanybody got LIBNSS_FILES_SO not declared here on glibc intermadiate compile?
20:54.46*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
20:57.08*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p54969038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
20:58.06*** join/#openmoko dumbalien (n=Home@host86-145-23-105.range86-145.btcentralplus.com)
20:58.55*** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@38.98.1.19)
20:59.31rob_wftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/ seems to have some problems today
20:59.38dumbalienCan anyone tell me what i would need to use openmoko onthe fic in th uk
20:59.48SpeedEvilA phone.
21:00.03dumbalienif i bought the FIC phone
21:00.03SpeedEvilit'll 'just work' on all UK networks apart from 3.
21:00.27dumbalienok , cool
21:00.50SpeedEvilAs long as you get a SIM.
21:00.56dumbaliengot ya
21:01.06SpeedEvilOrange has 1 pound flat-rate GSM IIRC
21:01.08SpeedEvilErr
21:01.10SpeedEvilGPRS
21:01.14SpeedEvilfor 1 day\
21:01.15buzomfg i want that
21:01.19buzLOL
21:01.53SpeedEvilIIRC someone else does 7 quid/meg, but capped at 1 quid per day.
21:01.58guaquai got 10eur/month flat-rate gprs, ;)
21:02.04*** part/#openmoko dumbalien (n=Home@host86-145-23-105.range86-145.btcentralplus.com)
21:02.14SpeedEvilI don't think it goes that cheap in the UK.
21:03.48rob_wrwhitby, the pouch needs a separete compartment for hte usbcable !
21:03.58rwhitbyyeah
21:04.19rwhitbyneed to find the shortest mini-usb cable I can find.
21:04.28rob_wright
21:06.20*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
21:06.52*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
21:07.13SpeedEvilThere are retractable USB cables.
21:07.26SpeedEvilI don't know how reliable they are.
21:07.46fsniper<PROTECTED>
21:08.13rwhitbyanyone notice the little loop inside the pouch - looks like a place to keep the stylus
21:08.48rwhitby(inside, on the same edge as the openmoko badge is closest to
21:09.14rob_wrwhitby, oh
21:11.49*** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl)
21:12.36koenhttp://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/03/08/playing-handsfree-with-your-linux-box/
21:13.24*** join/#openmoko cathal_ (n=cathal@89.100.102.170)
21:13.37ElrondMBitter - Thanks.
21:15.28ElrondDoes one need to be subscribed to post to community?
21:17.17MBitterno prob
21:22.01fsniperI found out LIBNSS_FILES_SO undeclared here problem. On ubuntu feisty with turkish locales auto generated files have i->İ conversion so build fails
21:33.35CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1280 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/util/shell.c: don't power down the device before trying to register with the network ;)
21:34.43rwhitbyheh - that one confused me no end :-)
21:48.23CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1281 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/ (usock.c vendor_ti.c):
21:48.23CIA-7openmoko: * introduce ciphering indication parsing and event generation
21:48.23CIA-7openmoko: * stubs for volume control
21:48.24CIA-7openmoko: * add data structure resembing gsm device state
21:50.08*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p54969038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
21:50.36CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1282 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (5 files in 2 dirs): this was supposed to be part of the last commit (1281)
21:58.42*** join/#openmoko GvzEvxre (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)
22:03.35CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1283 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch:
22:03.36CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): poll for the boot menu also on RAM
22:03.36CIA-7openmoko:  boot, reset, or unknown cause
22:03.36CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): don't look for the power key if
22:03.36CIA-7openmoko:  woken up by the charger
22:07.08*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p54969038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:08.42*** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44be55.adsl.enternet.hu)
22:16.09*** join/#openmoko Sum1 (n=Sum1@80.175.142.81)
22:19.25*** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2)
22:26.58*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p54969038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:27.22CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1284 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (boot-menu.patch uboot-dfu.patch): (log message trimmed)
22:27.22CIA-7openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c, include/usb_dfu.h (dfu_init_instance): added new global
22:27.22CIA-7openmoko:  volatile variable system_dfu_state pointing to dfu_state of the first
22:27.22CIA-7openmoko:  DFU-capable device set up in the system
22:27.22CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (do_option, bootmenu_hook): changed calls to
22:27.25CIA-7openmoko:  neo1973_poweroff to poweroff_if_idle which makes sure the system is not in
22:27.27CIA-7openmoko:  DFU before powering down (power down despite DFU is still allowed if
22:27.45*** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd)
22:30.29*** join/#openmoko gabaug (i=gabe@nat/ibm/x-0f403f7e887cfb04)
22:30.46*** join/#openmoko gabaug (i=gabe@nat/ibm/x-6393da6fea71dc2d)
22:31.08*** part/#openmoko fsniper (n=yalazi@85.101.126.189)
22:39.26balrog-kunis the system time always set to 0 after reboot?
22:39.47balrog-kunthe kernel doesn't seem to care about the value in the samsung rtc
22:39.58cworthOK. I bought a BL-5C so I can at least get this device to boot again. Now, let's hope it keeps it charged. (How can I ensure it's charging?)
22:40.24balrog-kunu-boot can tell you this
22:41.57rwhitbymorning
22:43.26balrog-kunhmm the rootfs has modules for two kernel versions installed
22:43.45CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1285 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch:
22:43.45CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (init_bootmenu, bootmenu_hook): evaluate
22:43.45CIA-7openmoko:  "boot_menu_timeout" on every timer tick, so change from concurrent console is
22:43.45CIA-7openmoko:  picked up without a menu restart
22:44.05*** join/#openmoko wiskyMike (n=shaweet@pool-70-108-180-9.washdc.east.verizon.net)
22:44.51prpplaguebalrog-kun: normally for the s3c2410 on power up, the rtc is init'd to an undefined state, most of the developers i've spoken to have added a setting into their bootloader to init the rtc to unix epoch on boot
22:46.49balrog-kunprpplague: however Linux (at least the defconfig) doesn't seem to use the rtc at all
22:47.11balrog-kunit should allow at least preserving clock over soft reboots
22:52.53balrog-kunnice, u-boot shows the correct date
22:54.32CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1286 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch:
22:54.32CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (init_bootmenu): print version_string above everything
22:54.32CIA-7openmoko:  else
22:54.32CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/bootmenu.c: added constants TOP_ROW and MENU_0_ROW to define
22:54.32CIA-7openmoko:  screen layout
22:55.33*** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
22:56.24CoreDump|homehi
22:58.39*** join/#openmoko Harlekin23 (n=Harlekin@p54969038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:59.38*** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis)
23:00.07CIA-7openmoko: 03werner * r1287 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch:
23:00.07CIA-7openmoko: board/neo1973/neo1973.h, board/neo1973/neo1973.c, board/neo1973/bootmenu.c:
23:00.07CIA-7openmoko:  renamed neo1973_911_key_pressed to neo1973_aux_key_pressed
23:01.13balrog-kunwhat's blob? mentioned in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/PCF50606#Register_dump_after_bootup
23:01.45balrog-kunor it's supposed to be u-boot?
23:03.04Shoraganit should be u-boot
23:03.13Psi_anyone in here actually used a ASUS R2H?
23:03.37CoreDump|homehmm, there is no e-mail verification of new wiki accounts on wiki.om.org
23:03.43*** join/#openmoko zecke (n=ich@88.134.99.50)
23:05.51balrog-kunok, changed
23:08.15CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1288 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-power_control.patch:
23:08.15CIA-7openmoko: * build gta01-pm-* modules into kernel image
23:08.15CIA-7openmoko: * make sure we stop the console on /dev/ttySAC0 if we switch to GSM mode
23:10.34Elrondwansti - Can I cite you on the community ml?
23:11.15*** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.40)
23:11.46CMwansti: I like the ringtone too btw :-)
23:14.05*** join/#openmoko darmou_ (n=darmou@203-206-183-196.perm.iinet.net.au)
23:14.48CoreDump|homewansti: btw, good job on the mp3's!
23:15.06alpsame wansti who did the supertux credits theme? awesome
23:16.09Shoraganalp, which one?
23:16.37alp<PROTECTED>
23:17.02alpi listened to that track so many times when i was working on vorbis decoding. it was the test track
23:17.35Shoraganyes, he its the same wansti :)
23:17.44Shoragans/he//
23:18.38*** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
23:18.39prpplaguebalrog-kun: yea, i can't speak for the openmoko build
23:18.48*** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB4B081.ipt.aol.com)
23:19.05prpplaguebalrog-kun: but our design is battery backed so the rtc is accurate
23:19.13*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
23:19.49balrog-kunnice
23:20.38*** join/#openmoko msroest (n=msroest@S01060040f41dad58.cg.shawcable.net)
23:22.44CoreDump|homehrw|gone: you won't have much fun w/ SSH via BT & pand. The lag is terrible
23:24.35alphaoneCoreDump|home: I have to disagree
23:24.58alphaoneI find it quite responsive
23:25.18alphaoneAbout as responsive as via usb-net
23:25.26CoreDump|homealphaone: really??
23:25.36alphaoneCoreDump|home: Yeah
23:26.00alphaoneCoreDump|home: How much lag do you have?
23:26.39CoreDump|homealphaone: http://rafb.net/p/cPjOT985.html
23:26.53CoreDump|homeok, this is through one wall
23:28.17alphaoneCoreDump|home: That *is* bad
23:28.29CoreDump|homeyeah
23:28.48CoreDump|homeI was having pings in the 50th yesterday hmm
23:29.10*** join/#openmoko infernix (i=nix@unaffiliated/infernix)
23:30.12*** join/#openmoko pna (n=pna@87.253.117.157)
23:30.56alphaoneCoreDump|home: http://rafb.net/p/dhXqmG94.html
23:31.13alphaoneNotebook and phone sitting right next to each other
23:31.44CoreDump|homealphaone: I had such pings yesterday when I started playing w/ pand:( Dunno what changed
23:32.05alphaoneCoreDump|home: Strange...
23:32.18alphaoneHave you been able to discover the device?
23:32.27alphaoneVia hcitool scan
23:32.36CoreDump|homenope
23:32.42CoreDump|homeyeah well once
23:32.49CoreDump|homebefore I renamed them =)
23:32.59alphaoneI wonder what the problem is
23:35.40CoreDump|homeme too
23:35.44CoreDump|homeannoying
23:36.35Shoraganalphaone, did you report it as a bug?
23:37.14CoreDump|homethe question is where =)
23:37.56cworthI was trying to find "Manually_using_GSM" by searching for "gsm" or "GSM" but totally failed.
23:37.58Elrondcworth - What are you looking for?
23:37.58alphaoneWell in th ebugzilla
23:38.09cworthElrond: I found it.
23:38.21balrog-kunoh
23:38.23Elrondcworth - ;-)
23:38.26alphaoneShoragan: I wanted to make sure it is not my fault first. I'm not exactly familiar with bluez...
23:38.28rwhitbyWe need a Phase0_Quick_Starts page, which links to all the stuff you can do so far on P0 devices.
23:38.34Shoraganok
23:38.43balrog-kunthere appears to exist another RTC inside the PCF50606 chip
23:38.49balrog-kunand a second touchscreen controller
23:39.19alphaoneThe touchscreen is quite rough
23:39.46alphaoneIf you hold the pen steady the cursor jumps back and forth.
23:39.59*** join/#openmoko billstevenson (n=billstev@c-71-58-61-130.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
23:40.20*** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
23:40.36balrog-kunalphaone: it's the same on my Palm and on the Sharp Zaurus
23:40.45alphaonebalrog-kun: really?
23:40.54balrog-kunand actually tslib relies on there being some touchscreen noise,
23:41.08cworthrwhitby: Well, there is the getting-started page that was linked to in the P0 announcement. That would be the natural place to start.
23:41.22rwhitbyyeah, good idea.
23:41.22balrog-kunif there's no difference in the measuremenets it stops reporting the events
23:41.39alphaonebalrog-kun: Doesn't that make the implementation of touch and hold unusable?
23:41.43*** join/#openmoko kmeyer (n=konrad@unaffiliated/konrad/x-000001)
23:41.45rwhitbyand link to "quick start" summaries at the top of each other detailed page (like I did for the audio)
23:41.54rwhitbyrather than duplicate information.
23:42.00cworthrwhitby: And yes, I'd like to start working on that, (for example, it was a while before I even knew to hold down the "AUX" button to get to the u-boot prompt). All these pages talked about things to do in u-boot, and I couldn't figure out how to get there.
23:42.12alphaonebalrog-kun: So tslib should smooth things then?
23:42.12balrog-kunalphaone: tslib also does some averaging, so it looks ok in the end
23:42.13cworthrwhitby: Yes, that's a good idea too.
23:42.41rwhitbythen there is a chance the quick start summary will stay in sync with the rest of the detailed page following it
23:43.32Elrondalphaone - How much does it jump?
23:43.48balrog-kunoh, lemme find a link to something
23:45.43alphaoneElrond: Probably 3-5 Pixel up and down and quite fast
23:45.55alphaoneLike many times per second
23:47.35Elrondalphaone - "ssh -X host /usr/bin/X11/xev" should give you some idea, how many pixels. ;o)
23:47.51Psi_do you think a white led puts out ANY IR at all?
23:47.54Elrond(unless xev is on the neo itself. But I doubt hat.)
23:48.02Psi_im pondering an idea
23:48.31Psi_white led as in the neo screen backlighting
23:49.07ElrondPsi_ - I doubt it's much ir.
23:49.26ElrondOf course, if it was enough, we could abuse the backlight to switch of the tv set. ;o)
23:49.55Psi_i was thinking about if you could pulse the led backlighting at 39Khz and encode ir remote control codes on it, then hold the phone up against the IR sensor of any device like tv/vcr etc.
23:50.35Psi_ie...actually hold the device to the ir port on the vcr, 0cm distance away
23:50.49Elrondhehe
23:50.51Psi_it would be kinda cool to be able to do that
23:51.13ElrondGet a BT-IR-torch. ;o)
23:51.36Psi_heh
23:51.57Elrond(I have no idea, if such a thing exists)
23:52.10Psi_hm.. i might grab a white led and change the ir led in one of my IR remotes with it and have a go
23:53.11CoreDump|homehrmmm asound.state isn't loaded on boot
23:58.30Psi_ok, led resoldered, here we go
23:59.17CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1289 10/trunk/oe/packages/uucp/ (files/ files/policy.patch uucp_1.07.bb): provide a more reasonable policy.h file
23:59.31CIA-7openmoko: 03laforge * r1290 10/trunk/oe/packages/upstart/ (. upstart_0.3.5.bb): initial recipe for upstart

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