| 00:00.38 | jiffyjeff | will there a problem developing "multi-touch" for the openmoko? (legal reasons) |
| 00:01.12 | emulsion_ | I can't imagine there would be, just do it. |
| 00:01.16 | SuN | Not in Europe :) |
| 00:01.34 | jiffyjeff | ha... does this thing run X? |
| 00:01.42 | SuN | I think so. |
| 00:01.55 | rob_w|usa | jiffyjeff, sort of |
| 00:02.14 | rob_w|usa | actually it runs a subset of the library`s |
| 00:02.29 | jiffyjeff | okay -- with gtk support I presume |
| 00:03.53 | jiffyjeff | Who is managing the openmoko project right now? |
| 00:05.04 | *** join/#openmoko sjoerd (n=sjoerd@tunnel3460.ipv6.xs4all.nl) |
| 00:05.23 | emulsion_ | gtk 2.6.10 |
| 00:06.21 | emulsion_ | more on software support in dev |
| 00:06.24 | emulsion_ | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html |
| 00:08.31 | jiffyjeff | thank you emulsion -- can you get met set up w/ an account on the wiki? i have some thoughts on implementing "multi-touch" (if it's not already documented) |
| 00:11.38 | emulsion_ | don't know about the wiki account. I'm on the mailing list here http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ |
| 00:12.08 | emulsion_ | closest thing to a wiki that I know here |
| 00:12.11 | emulsion_ | http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko |
| 00:12.48 | rob_w|usa | jiffyjeff, whats ur idea ? |
| 00:15.37 | jetpeach | what do people think openmoko's chances of success are, in terms of becomming a mass market device? i'd love it to succeed, but the decks seemed stacked against it, considering how much providers like to lock phones down with there own crap software... |
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| 00:19.10 | emulsion_ | your guess is as good as mine, lots will be software, ease of use dependent for mass market, also price will be a factor, I for one have no problem forking over the $350 for an upgradable phone. I like to think it'll stick, at a minimum I think it will survive and grow. |
| 00:19.20 | jiffyjeff | rob: just some thoughts on implementing the "multitouch" algorithms efficiently -- i.e. using the manhatten/taxicab distance calculations rather than the standard linear formula (which requires factoring). I've written a customized mouse device driver in OSX, so I've worked with the acceleration curves, etc. |
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| 00:21.19 | jetpeach | surviving and growing would at least make me happy - i wonder what sort of volumes FIC anticipates for 1973, it would seem volumes would have a pretty large impact on costs... |
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| 00:32.03 | rboehme | counter |
| 00:32.03 | aloril | 3 days 05:27:57 (3.228 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.228 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.228 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (181) |
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| 00:39.09 | rob_w|usa | nice |
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| 01:09.05 | spikebik1 | oh heh, is timriker a ghost? |
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| 01:16.49 | TimRiker | huh? wha? |
| 01:17.19 | TimRiker | oh. net issues. I'm off anyway... |
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| 02:48.54 | [g2] | counter |
| 02:48.55 | aloril | 3 days 03:11:05 (3.133 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 3 days (31.133 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 3 days (215.133 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (182) |
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| 03:20.08 | Zer0Her0 | 3 days!!! woohoo |
| 03:20.20 | emacsen | why are you on the big list? |
| 03:20.23 | emacsen | or little list |
| 03:21.00 | Zer0Her0 | nope, more excited about the source though |
| 03:21.12 | emacsen | ah |
| 03:21.49 | Zer0Her0 | i'm weird |
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| 03:23.11 | rwhitby | Zer0Her0: actually, being excited about the source is the true spirit of OpenMoko, since OpenMoko is the software, not the hardware. |
| 03:24.12 | rwhitby | you can bet that the software will be ported to other already-available hardware very soon after it's release. |
| 03:24.46 | Zer0Her0 | yep |
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| 04:51.35 | aloril | SpeedEvil: counter is for 23:59:59.999... CST which actually is Monday 13:00 at Taiwan (IIRC) |
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| 05:08.17 | Psi_ | i wonder if they have posted out all the developer phones already so they arrive on the same day as the source gets released or if they will post them on that day |
| 05:08.30 | Psi_ | in any case, cant wait for all the pics to appear :) |
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| 05:13.57 | aloril | I think they post them Monday |
| 05:14.41 | aloril | though.. Monday at Taiwan is Sunday at USA ;-) |
| 05:20.31 | CM | Great post on linux audio: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/foms-lca-recap.html |
| 05:23.36 | CM | xkr47: http://svn.xiph.org/trunk/speex/libspeex/resample.c |
| 05:32.57 | xkr47 | CM, hmmmkay |
| 05:32.57 | xkr47 | :) |
| 05:33.19 | CM | Read Lennarts post? Interesting I say... :) |
| 05:33.42 | WillySilly | Lennart is a smart guy, thats for sure |
| 05:34.21 | xkr47 | I grepped "fixed" and only read a few lines about libsydney and the resampler :D |
| 05:34.26 | xkr47 | I'll try to look more later |
| 05:34.58 | xkr47 | however I found a house for sale that I might be interested in buying so my mind is not exactly tuned for deep resampling thoughts atm :) |
| 05:35.39 | CM | Best of luck :) |
| 05:35.56 | xkr47 | thx |
| 05:36.01 | xkr47 | hope you have a great day too :) |
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| 06:47.02 | aloril | hmm.. GPRS in order delivery sucks, but I guess it was done because of crappy phones in past |
| 06:47.02 | aloril | why do it in UMTS too? |
| 06:47.02 | aloril | (or I remember wrong on UMTS) |
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| 07:39.20 | aloril | counter |
| 07:39.20 | aloril | 2 days 22:20:40 (2.931 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.931 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.931 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (182) |
| 07:39.57 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 07:44.09 | aloril | ... soon for source |
| 07:46.00 | CM | I'm looking forward to a decent wiki too.. |
| 07:46.34 | aloril | yeah, that too |
| 07:46.43 | aloril | and of course hearing from those > 50 developers |
| 07:46.49 | *** part/#openmoko careo (n=djensen@208.71.31.193) |
| 07:47.20 | CM | And some nice new pics of the hw :) |
| 07:50.16 | etahhhh | Are there plans for a device emulation project? Something for developers without the hardware? |
| 07:51.18 | CM | etahhhh: Yes, the simples thing is just to use Xoo: http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo/ |
| 07:51.55 | CM | No immidate need to emulate the hardware since it will run X and gtk |
| 07:52.36 | etahhhh | Right. It would be sweet if they could 'award' phones for building something that is ready to run. |
| 07:54.13 | aloril | world won't be same after this (of course you could have build your own linux wearable computer, HMD, twiddler, etc.., but this is first mass market item) |
| 07:54.53 | CM | etahhhh: That's a nice idea I think. Some kind of competition of "best app" or so |
| 07:55.11 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 07:56.30 | etahhhh | Exact, throw a bone to people that aren't in the first wave and don't have 'development' budget. |
| 07:58.34 | etahhhh | Help out anybody that makes significant contribution to mass adoption/usability |
| 08:01.10 | etahhhh | Shoot, I'm just trying to figure a way to get my hands one, when I don't have the cash or embedded experience |
| 08:01.43 | etahhhh | I am sooo ready to ditch my blackberry |
| 08:05.14 | etahhhh | Hey, if the 'competition' takes off, maybe they would give me one for contributing the idea of giving them to people who contribute ;) |
| 08:05.18 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 08:06.14 | aloril | umm.. there might be prior art for that idea ;-) |
| 08:06.41 | CM | If you're in the us I'm sure you can paten it anyway :P |
| 08:06.57 | CM | s/aten/atent/ |
| 08:07.04 | Eblis | hmm, if he were in the US he might have money for a developer edition of the phone :) |
| 08:07.15 | etahhhh | For real. |
| 08:07.36 | CM | Heh, true. I think $350 is cheap.. |
| 08:07.45 | Eblis | for some maybe :( |
| 08:07.58 | *** join/#openmoko KaneElson` (n=Kane@pdpc/supporter/student/asusanator) |
| 08:08.07 | aloril | quoting myself: 2007-01-04 16:01:37 <aloril> and if you develop enough nifty application(s) maybe you get next version for free? who knows .. (I'm not with FIC so of course don't know anything about potential for this ;-) |
| 08:08.26 | aloril | not exactly same idea, but similar ;-) |
| 08:10.03 | etahhhh | Ditto. It makes a lot of sense reward people who further the cause. Especially if there is a way to do it without the device. |
| 08:10.45 | aloril | actually its quite likely you will get v2 for free if you show yourself being useful with v1 |
| 08:11.11 | aloril | (few intermediate lines and then this): 2007-01-04 16:02:50 <mickeyl> absolutely |
| 08:11.11 | Eblis | that's a nice idea and a lucrative one too :) |
| 08:12.22 | aloril | Nokia did provide vouchers for 770 developers to get 800 cheaply (or was it for free?): 500 of them IIRC |
| 08:12.44 | so_solid_moo | 99 euros iirc |
| 08:13.34 | aloril | so_solid_moo: OK, that means its cheap, but still you need to be serious: good idea I think |
| 08:13.55 | etahhhh | It would also make sense to give them to people lining up bulk purchases, anything over 10 or something like that. |
| 08:14.19 | Eblis | v2 will have different versions ? |
| 08:14.29 | etahhhh | Motivation for voluntary sales force. |
| 08:14.52 | aloril | Eblis: dunno, could have, depends on how you read some Sean mails |
| 08:14.58 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 08:15.01 | Eblis | aha |
| 08:15.20 | aloril | might be only one version or could be 2 versions: with and without keyboard or ..oh well we will see ;-) |
| 08:15.30 | Eblis | :) |
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| 08:19.57 | Eblis | maybe they'll like my mono and portable .net ports to OE :D |
| 08:20.47 | rwhitby | Eblis: did you send an email to coreteam@ ? |
| 08:20.54 | Eblis | yes |
| 08:21.12 | Eblis | and openmoko-devel |
| 08:21.18 | rwhitby | before mickey made the list? |
| 08:21.27 | aloril | it would be nice to have this for v2 (I assume there is no suitable connector for v1 and USB1 is too slow for VGA maybe?): http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ver0/ |
| 08:21.27 | Eblis | that i don't know |
| 08:21.35 | Eblis | i finished porting this week :( |
| 08:21.53 | aloril | hmm. I think mickeyl can add to that list later too..? |
| 08:21.59 | Eblis | monday/tuesday |
| 08:22.03 | rwhitby | dunno - ask him :-) |
| 08:22.33 | Eblis | mono was added to OE but portable .net wasn't added yet ... the bugzilla entry is still open. maybe they're waiting a bit before adding a second .net framework app |
| 08:22.53 | Eblis | when was the list made ? |
| 08:25.44 | hrw | hi |
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| 08:46.31 | ninHer | i guess our phone is delaying too much |
| 08:47.19 | ninHer | have you seen the latest samsung stuff ? |
| 08:47.44 | ninHer | http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html |
| 08:50.55 | rwhitby | OMG NO WIFI!!!!! (on the F700) |
| 08:51.18 | zipola | It has that strange qwrty-thing :) |
| 08:52.22 | ecraven | don't like that keyboard :( |
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| 08:53.44 | zipola | The only benefit I see is the camera and even then I'd buy a real digital camera. |
| 08:53.53 | aloril | rwhitby: haha |
| 08:54.12 | rwhitby | aloril: :-) |
| 08:54.40 | TRIsoft | qwrty ? I wouldn't by a product with no "e" on it ! Typical Samsung :D |
| 08:54.57 | zipola | Sorry, that was my typo. |
| 08:55.03 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 08:55.10 | TRIsoft | j/k ;-) |
| 08:55.26 | zipola | Oh :D |
| 08:57.34 | aloril | if money is not obection: 64GB flash: http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=959056 |
| 08:58.02 | aloril | s/obection/objection/ |
| 09:03.23 | XorA | counter |
| 09:03.24 | aloril | 2 days 20:56:36 (2.873 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.873 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.873 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (183) |
| 09:03.28 | XorA | woowoo |
| 09:06.00 | zipola | OpenMoko is like an evangelical messianic cult. |
| 09:06.25 | zipola | Evangelical = we must spread the word. |
| 09:06.40 | zipola | Messianic = we wait for the gadget. |
| 09:06.58 | highvoltage | cult = I WANT MY OPENMOKO NOW!!!! ? |
| 09:07.51 | zipola | You got it. |
| 09:07.58 | xkr47 | nerd = I need to make a lot of noise on irc on all kinds of niche stuff |
| 09:09.42 | hads | That's a pricey flash drive |
| 09:10.56 | highvoltage | :) |
| 09:11.42 | ecraven | counter |
| 09:11.42 | aloril | 2 days 20:48:18 (2.867 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.867 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.867 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (184) |
| 09:11.46 | ecraven | ah |
| 09:11.50 | ecraven | almost 3 days ;( |
| 09:12.31 | aloril | hads: indeed, just getting 64x1GB SD cards would be cheaper ;-) |
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| 09:13.25 | hads | True, probably not quite as convinient though :) I wonder how many people would buy such a thing. |
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| 09:18.20 | aloril | hads: yes, not as convenient, but I wonder where that 'extra price' comes from |
| 09:20.22 | l3010o | topic |
| 09:20.58 | hads | Indeed |
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| 09:22.30 | xkr47 | 30.867 days! less than a month :) |
| 09:23.21 | aloril | is glass half full or half empty? ;-) (less than month or more than month depending on month) |
| 09:25.14 | fluffs | aloril: the glass dosen't have wifi or camera |
| 09:26.35 | aloril | my glass has better camera than any phone I know ;-) |
| 09:26.48 | aloril | or rather, will have ... |
| 09:27.05 | aloril | just wish it would support more than basic PTP |
| 09:30.36 | aloril | (probably more useful to use in USB mass storage than in PTP mode) |
| 09:31.17 | ecraven | ptp? |
| 09:33.24 | l3010o | can we install openmoko on the samsung ultra smart f700?? |
| 09:34.56 | xkr47 | you just need skill, that's all :) |
| 09:37.58 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_Transfer_Protocol |
| 09:39.19 | aloril | looking at libgphoto2-2.3.1/camlibs/ptp2/library.c it seems than Nikon cameras support capture too and Canon capture + review (and other just browsing/copying/deleteing, ie.. I think basically poor man mass storage) |
| 09:39.45 | XorA | aloril: my kodak is PTP |
| 09:40.09 | k-y | counter |
| 09:40.09 | aloril | 2 days 20:19:50 (2.847 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.847 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.847 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (185) |
| 09:40.13 | aloril | XorA: yes, most cameras do support PTP |
| 09:40.26 | XorA | aloril: nah, most do mass storage |
| 09:40.31 | XorA | aloril: ptp was stupid |
| 09:40.34 | aloril | XorA: but does your kodak allow you to snap image using PTP? |
| 09:40.53 | XorA | aloril: not under linux, but that could be due to the piss poor implementation |
| 09:41.04 | aloril | XorA: if it allows you to snap picture, then PTP makes sense |
| 09:41.27 | aloril | XorA: could be that or it could be that camera has limited implementation |
| 09:42.07 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 09:42.12 | XorA | aloril: wouldnt know, gphoto2 tends to crash rather than extract pictures, I used to use a java program to do it |
| 09:42.26 | XorA | aloril: in end its quicker to take out SD card and put in SD reader |
| 09:44.33 | aloril | XorA: indeed, but with Neo1973 you might want to use camera in USB mass storage mode (it's USB1 after all, so speed doesn't 'matter') |
| 09:44.44 | aloril | saves lugging card reader ;-) |
| 09:45.02 | XorA | aloril: put micro SD card in yah camera :-) |
| 09:45.10 | hrw | ptp? never used |
| 09:45.11 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-f516c7f1e8f0eb47) |
| 09:45.29 | XorA | aloril: reboot? |
| 09:45.37 | aloril | micro SD is under battery |
| 09:46.30 | XorA | solder wires to battery :-) |
| 09:46.30 | aloril | haha |
| 09:47.00 | aloril | anyway, don't except to do that much stuff with Neo1973, so USB mass storage should be fine |
| 09:47.12 | aloril | (for transmitting images) |
| 09:47.19 | XorA | aloril: yeah should work fine |
| 09:48.27 | aloril | anyway, allows to boast "better camera than any other phone" ;-) (yeah, I guess there are some other phones with USB port or some cameras with bluetooth/wifi and phones with similar support but ...) ;-) |
| 09:51.04 | XorA | neo screen is gonna be gorgeous for photos, 640x480 at nice small size |
| 09:52.18 | aloril | yeah, though for any significant amount you might want to do rescaling in PC |
| 09:53.01 | aloril | VGA takes about 100KB, so 2Gb card should be able to hold 20000 images ;-) (unless you want also high resolution one, then 1/10 or 1/20) |
| 09:54.15 | fluffs | the price of flash has been driven down and down |
| 09:54.33 | XorA | hey fluffs |
| 09:59.09 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 10:00.45 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
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| 10:23.57 | xkr47 | mickeyl, don't work too late today okay? |
| 10:23.58 | xkr47 | :) |
| 10:25.32 | mickeyl | morning |
| 10:25.54 | TRIsoft | morning *checkstime* ;-) |
| 10:26.15 | Morgreet | aloril: although it feels like a dream so far, I'm actually surprised that no manufacturer has done it before FIC, after well over a decade of cellphones being normal. |
| 10:26.45 | mickeyl | TRIsoft: ~ugt |
| 10:26.48 | mickeyl | ~ugt |
| 10:26.59 | apt | well, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 10:26.59 | mickeyl | apt ? |
| 10:27.00 | Morgreet | After all, it's not exactly hard to put bits you don't want touched behind a UART. |
| 10:27.04 | mickeyl | ~botsnack |
| 10:27.04 | apt | mickeyl: aw, gee |
| 10:27.45 | aloril | Morgreet: yeah, but I guess they consider carriers as customers :-( |
| 10:27.59 | TRIsoft | mickeyl: :D |
| 10:27.59 | Morgreet | aloril: true |
| 10:29.13 | Morgreet | mickeyl: viva? |
| 10:29.48 | mickeyl | Morgreet: first version of slides finished and sent to supervisor. will now reread my thesis (it's been 4 months since i submitted...) and then work on my share of the OpenMoko presentation and the OE presentation |
| 10:30.05 | mickeyl | [for FOSDEM, that is] |
| 10:30.36 | mickeyl | fluffs: what kind of tea do you prefer? |
| 10:30.37 | Morgreet | Super! A relief to send the whole damn thing off. Don't stop reading new research papers in the meantime. |
| 10:31.08 | mickeyl | Morgreet: *nod* i'm 100% sure I will get asked about new developments in meantime. |
| 10:31.10 | rwhitby | hey mickeyl |
| 10:31.14 | mickeyl | cheers rwhitby |
| 10:31.23 | fluffs | mickeyl: tea-direct standard tea |
| 10:31.43 | mickeyl | fluffs: ah. is that fair trade? |
| 10:31.47 | fluffs | yes |
| 10:31.54 | mickeyl | cool |
| 10:32.07 | mickeyl | i should drink more tea and less coffee |
| 10:32.07 | Morgreet | Bah, now I have to make tea .... |
| 10:32.13 | mickeyl | btw. |
| 10:32.24 | mickeyl | fluffs: i got contradicting infos about S3C2440 |
| 10:32.30 | fluffs | mickeyl: hmm? |
| 10:32.35 | mickeyl | fluffs: max. freq is that 400 or 533 ? |
| 10:32.49 | fluffs | they say 533, never seen a 533 in the wild though |
| 10:32.56 | fluffs | all ours are 400 speed grade |
| 10:33.28 | mickeyl | ah, i see. due to the increased bus speed it should be more than twice as fast as the 2410/200, shouldn't it? |
| 10:33.52 | fluffs | yeah |
| 10:34.04 | fluffs | though by the time v2 is done, there will be better things available |
| 10:34.11 | mickeyl | ok, cool. any rough idea about increased power consumption compared to that one? |
| 10:34.28 | mickeyl | fluffs: i know... rather thinking about a v1 upgrade atm. |
| 10:34.34 | mickeyl | (just pie in the sky for now) |
| 10:34.46 | fluffs | not pin compatible |
| 10:35.03 | mickeyl | sure, but fairly close |
| 10:35.09 | Stephmw | mornin' |
| 10:35.10 | mickeyl | afaict |
| 10:36.24 | mickeyl | cheers Stephmw |
| 10:37.47 | Psi_ | is V2 a replacement for V1 or in addition to it? |
| 10:37.57 | mickeyl | a totally different beast |
| 10:38.01 | mickeyl | so, addition |
| 10:38.08 | mickeyl | well |
| 10:38.10 | mickeyl | or replacement |
| 10:38.11 | mickeyl | heh |
| 10:38.31 | Psi_ | i guess the real question is, will V1 stop being produced once V2 is out |
| 10:38.32 | Eblis | will there be different versions of v2 ? |
| 10:38.55 | mickeyl | sorry, no idea on both questions |
| 10:39.18 | mickeyl | seriously v2 is in early planning stage and the bits that i know i'm not allowed to disclose, so please don't ask me :) |
| 10:39.31 | Psi_ | fair enough :) |
| 10:39.43 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr_ (n=orospakr@70.48.50.171) |
| 10:40.06 | mickeyl | v1 will keep me busy for long enough that I don't worry about anything else atm. :) |
| 10:40.17 | Psi_ | heh |
| 10:41.15 | hrw | mickeyl: I just hope that v1 will be used for atleast 6-12 months |
| 10:41.29 | mickeyl | hrw: for sure |
| 10:42.01 | hrw | mickeyl: thats enough for me. |
| 10:42.07 | hrw | now week of waiting.... |
| 10:42.39 | hrw | mickeyl: btw - I hope that they are in other version then white? I prefer black phones |
| 10:43.01 | Psi_ | im thinking people will still be using V1 years after the gsm network is no longer being used. Probably just using it for some sort of tiny computer terminal or something :P |
| 10:43.26 | mickeyl | there's two versions |
| 10:43.40 | mickeyl | white/orange [sides], black/gray[sides] |
| 10:43.56 | mickeyl | i don't think we phase 0 are allowed to chose though ;) |
| 10:44.00 | rwhitby | mickeyl: what colour are the phase0 phones? |
| 10:44.05 | mickeyl | see above |
| 10:44.25 | rwhitby | oh, it's just random? |
| 10:44.51 | hrw | Psi_: I do not think so. I do not use my old palmtops |
| 10:45.12 | Psi_ | true |
| 10:45.55 | Psi_ | maybe for centamental reasons |
| 10:46.18 | mickeyl | well, there are quite some things i can imagine for gsm-equipped gadgets at home |
| 10:46.18 | mickeyl | home automation, for one |
| 10:46.44 | rwhitby | by that time we will all have pico-cells in our houses anyway ... |
| 10:46.50 | mickeyl | hehe |
| 10:46.52 | Psi_ | hah |
| 10:46.58 | Morgreet | v1 will get fixed to Roomba once I have v2 :-) |
| 10:47.11 | *** join/#openmoko emphe (i=empee@pornstar.from.daug.net) |
| 10:47.19 | rwhitby | v1 will become the console for the slug |
| 10:47.38 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 10:47.44 | Morgreet | rwhitby: ah yes, that should be a great partnership of devices ;-) |
| 10:48.08 | rwhitby | the slug can keep the v1 charged through usb |
| 10:48.19 | rwhitby | and the slug can run from 4 AA batteries. |
| 10:48.19 | mickeyl | or an info-display in the living room. or an alarm clock. |
| 10:48.46 | CM | Ot just as a gps :) |
| 10:48.48 | CM | or |
| 10:48.51 | Morgreet | Talking of charging, do Li-Ion batteries suffer from being on permanent charge, for non-mobile operation? |
| 10:48.53 | Psi_ | stick a millimeter turbine in there and be done with it :P |
| 10:49.24 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 10:49.24 | CM | Psi_: I saw that one too. but 5-8% efficiency isn't much. |
| 10:49.41 | mickeyl | or robot control |
| 10:49.44 | CM | And the hydrogen tank a bit scary |
| 10:49.50 | mickeyl | people are using ipaqs and zaurus handheld for that atm. |
| 10:49.58 | Morgreet | Bah, turbines. Zero-point energy please, none of that retro stuff. |
| 10:51.05 | Psi_ | mickeyl, here is a question about the V1 that i had the other day. Is the low voltage shutdown done in hardware of software? |
| 10:52.57 | mickeyl | hmm... i think there is both. we have a power control IC that is doing some things and we also have a kernel thread that's supposed to do a controlled shutdown on low power |
| 10:53.17 | mickeyl | for more details you need to query mr hardware expert |
| 10:53.56 | mickeyl | bbiab, need to work a bit |
| 10:54.02 | Psi_ | i just dont want to accidently change that code and have it discharge the Lipo battery below its min volts and cause damage or small explosion :P |
| 10:54.16 | Morgreet | I'm looking forward to the blogs of hardware peeps who take this thing apart. Lot of questions, like does the microphone have a hardware sound path to the GSM module, and can it be turned on from the GSM side. |
| 10:55.04 | mickeyl | yes, no |
| 10:55.12 | Morgreet | k |
| 10:55.20 | mickeyl | gsm has no control over the audio paths |
| 10:55.26 | mickeyl | or very little at least |
| 10:55.32 | Stephmw | couldn't think of a non-invasive usecase for that 2nd one either ;-) |
| 10:55.38 | mickeyl | one cool i can confirm is that LaF0rge made a phone call yesterday night where he routed an mp3 into gsm :) |
| 10:55.45 | Morgreet | If there already is an audio path in hardware, all it needs is the ability to turn mike on. |
| 10:56.59 | Morgreet | Stephmw: oh absolutely. This is about being sure that there are no invasive paths! One of the issues that arose in the CCC conference about closed mobiles. |
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| 10:58.17 | hrw | mickey|powerpoin: 'please hold on, I will play you some music' mode for annoying telemarketers? |
| 10:58.26 | Morgreet | Hehehe |
| 10:58.45 | hrw | and then switch to hardcore noice generator |
| 10:58.59 | Morgreet | We need an official selection of most annoying music to play on hold. |
| 10:59.16 | fluffs | anything by the cheeky girls |
| 11:00.48 | Morgreet | Does anyone know whether Leigh Honeywell or Paul Wouters are among the Phase 0 people? From that CCC conference video, they would make terrific ambassadors for the device, and they said hopeful things about it in their presentation. |
| 11:01.15 | aloril2 | mickeyl: cool indeed |
| 11:03.55 | Morgreet | They ended up doing their mobile phone call encryption / VPN stuff using that closed (prolly undisclosed Linux inside) HIPI phone, which was a shame. |
| 11:06.03 | rwhitby | mickey|powerpoin: use '|slides' ;-) |
| 11:06.25 | mickey|slides | *nod* ;) |
| 11:07.30 | *** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 11:12.05 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 11:22.59 | Morgreet | If HTC still has strong links to FIC, then I guess v2's keyboard will be along these lines: |
| 11:23.00 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:23.24 | ecraven | will there be a keyboard? |
| 11:23.53 | Morgreet | It was rumoured as a possible option.s But hey, even v1 is just a rumour, lol |
| 11:24.03 | Morgreet | Everything is speculation :P |
| 11:26.12 | raynet | v3 should work also as an emergency floatation device |
| 11:26.17 | Morgreet | If it doesn't have a keyboard though, then FIC should produce a credit-card size Bluetooth keyboard as an accessory, to keep in shirt pocket. There's always more profit on accessories anyway, so would make business sense. |
| 11:26.49 | Morgreet | But slide-out would be nicer. |
| 11:27.25 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 11:28.42 | Morgreet | The excellent keyboard is the main reason why I still use my very old Nokia Communicator. |
| 11:28.53 | ecraven | Morgreet: slide-out would make the device more breakable :( |
| 11:29.05 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 11:30.44 | Morgreet | ecraven: don't think so, there's not all that much leverage between the two sections. A clamshell is theoretically even more breakable, but in practice it's robust. So just depends on construction. |
| 11:34.19 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 11:38.43 | Morgreet | If v1 development is indeed going to be recouped by sales of same h/w as WinMobiles, then I understand why the external design is really a non-geek one. But if v1 is a success, then I hope v2 h/w is designed with a bit more geek-appeal, beyond openness. With a full Linux inside, a keyboard is extremely powerful. |
| 11:39.22 | rwhitby | the true measure will be when this phone replaces my Treo 650. |
| 11:39.41 | ynezz | you can use keyboard via BT |
| 11:39.52 | Morgreet | Don't actually know Treo 650 specs. Looking it up. |
| 11:39.53 | ynezz | and i want phone as small as possible |
| 11:41.27 | Morgreet | rwhitby: nice |
| 11:41.53 | Morgreet | Well if a qwerty keyboard fits on the Treo 650, no reason why it shouldn'd on v2 |
| 11:41.58 | rwhitby | Morgreet: my treo does bluetooth, ssh, imap/ssl with idle and offline, irc, podcasts, mp3s, blogging, transport schedules, spreadsheets, powerpoint, pdfs, ... |
| 11:42.18 | rwhitby | oh, and it's phone too :-) |
| 11:42.21 | Morgreet | rwhitby: hehe, nice |
| 11:43.03 | rwhitby | at least 80% of my email and irc logs reading is done on the 320x320 treo screen. |
| 11:45.48 | Morgreet | Well here's the wishlist I've been gathering from people's more serious comments (:-) --> |
| 11:45.55 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:46.35 | Morgreet | Lemme stick commas between those things with sed |
| 11:46.59 | hrw | toster, coffee machine, alcomat, wings, turbojet engine |
| 11:47.11 | Morgreet | I said serious :P |
| 11:47.14 | madwoota | , kitchen sink |
| 11:47.21 | raynet | madwoota: so emacs? |
| 11:47.25 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:47.56 | madwoota | i dont see the point in using emacs, its far too small, nimble and lightweight |
| 11:48.09 | Elrond | Hi Morgreet! |
| 11:48.10 | Morgreet | Kitchen sink is already in there, since emacs is in OE |
| 11:48.20 | Morgreet | Hi El :-) |
| 11:48.41 | Elrond | So OM/Neo can cook coffee? ;) |
| 11:48.49 | madwoota | add firefox and you can do about:kitchensink |
| 11:48.56 | madwoota | hehe :) |
| 11:49.06 | CM | What about xemacs? That was definitely the number 99% cpu sucker at my universiy |
| 11:49.13 | Morgreet | I'll be adding a BlueSMIRF to my espresso machine for Neo control :P |
| 11:50.26 | Elrond | BlueSMIRF? |
| 11:50.28 | Morgreet | Of course, any espresso app for the Neo must transmit the slurping sounds back to the device, since this is the main attraction of an espresso machine ;-))) |
| 11:50.50 | madwoota | nah, the grinding - the smell |
| 11:50.51 | raynet | Morgreet: on serious note, and external battery adaptor would be nice for those actually using the GPS outdoors without chance to recharge it every X hours. would be nice to have power to navigate for couple days |
| 11:51.18 | Morgreet | Elrond: one of several OEM Bluetooth devices for embedding into hardware. |
| 11:51.30 | Morgreet | raynet: yes |
| 11:52.18 | Morgreet | raynet: perhaps we need an OLPC-type yoyo or handcrank charger. |
| 11:52.23 | Elrond | Morgreet - Ahh. Is it open? |
| 11:52.33 | raynet | when using my Nokia 6670 + Navicore + Bluetooth GPS the GPS will go for 10-20 hours but Nokia dies in 3 |
| 11:53.16 | Elrond | counter |
| 11:53.17 | aloril | 2 days 18:06:43 (2.755 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.755 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.755 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (186) |
| 11:53.26 | Stephmw | raynet: not surprising IMO |
| 11:53.29 | Elrond | Do we have any info on battery live? |
| 11:53.34 | Stephmw | raynet: compare battery capacities and consumption |
| 11:53.41 | Elrond | ... for neo v1, that is. |
| 11:53.54 | Morgreet | Elrond: BlueSMIRF -- http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=582 |
| 11:54.53 | raynet | Stephmw: true, which is why external battery would be nice. My Psion Series 7 (with 133MHz ARM) gives me 13 hours of navigation time, but ofcourse it has a bigger battery |
| 11:55.55 | Elrond | Morgreet - Is sparkfun.com a good dealer? (A friend ordered there a few days ago) |
| 11:56.51 | Morgreet | Presumably any external battery pack with the right voltage will charge the Neo fine, so it just needs messing with NiMH cells and USB cables. |
| 11:57.03 | raynet | hoo.. first pics of Nokia's E90 Communicator |
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| 11:59.43 | Morgreet | Elrond: I don't know, Sparkfun are in the US, and I don't even know a distributor here in the UK. Just came across them when thinking up things to do with my Roomba. |
| 12:00.55 | Elrond | Morgreet - Ahh, okay. |
| 12:01.43 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 12:06.37 | Morgreet | LOL, typical ... "Communicator size/shape as annoying as previous designs". Why are reviewers suck morons always? Each size/shape has its uses. Just because a given one doesn't suit your own use, it doesn't make it bad. |
| 12:07.47 | Morgreet | Yes, an HGV truck is really annoying when used for shopping downtown. Doh. |
| 12:08.47 | Elrond | Morgreet - You prefer some Star "Trek Enterprise"-level thing for shopping downtown, right? ;) |
| 12:09.04 | Elrond | s/Star // |
| 12:09.12 | Morgreet | Nokia needs a new term to describe these decent-keyboard sized mobile devices. Calling them a phone just triggers the moron reviewers into their negativity. |
| 12:09.22 | Elrond | *gna* I should not use s/.../.../ here. It always goes wrong. ;) |
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| 12:09.52 | jannu | Morgreet: a communicator? |
| 12:10.06 | jannu | radical, i know |
| 12:10.08 | Morgreet | Hehe, it seems that label didn't work ;-) |
| 12:10.34 | Morgreet | Elrond: I've not been satisfied with teleporters so far. They always leave some vital piece of me behind. |
| 12:10.37 | Elrond | Anyway, I'm out for a few hours, "legacy work" ;) |
| 12:10.54 | Elrond | Morgreet - *LOL* |
| 12:11.06 | Morgreet | cya later El |
| 12:11.24 | jannu | with the n-series i think they talk about multimedia computers |
| 12:11.43 | jannu | somehow i'm guessing that that label won't be a smash hit either |
| 12:12.50 | Morgreet | Aye |
| 12:13.39 | jannu | but there's clearly a need for more vocabulary on these things |
| 12:14.49 | jannu | communicator wouldn't actually be a bad label per se |
| 12:15.06 | Morgreet | Yeah. And you just can't foretell which terms will click with people. Eg. "PDA" is a completely hopeless term when you think of it for general use, neither descriptive nor marketting friendly, yet it caught on. Go figure. |
| 12:22.06 | Morgreet | Does anyone know whether the OLPC's dual-mode LCD display is going to be marketted outside of that project? I would love a very low power HQ monochrome display for ebook reading, overlayed on the normal power-hungry colour LCD. |
| 12:22.20 | Morgreet | You could read ebooks while the whole rest of device is on standby. |
| 12:23.13 | so_solid_moo | the colour on that screen is quite low resolution |
| 12:23.45 | Morgreet | Matches our eyes --- we have much lower optical resolution for chroma than for luminance. |
| 12:25.07 | so_solid_moo | that's a relative, not absolute, thing. |
| 12:26.14 | Morgreet | That's why we've been happy with extremely smudgy colour res on TVs for many decades. As long as the luminance info is sharp, the eye/brain is perfectly happy with bleeding colours, it moves them into the right place. |
| 12:26.34 | Morgreet | No, it's absolute. The chroma vs luminance resolutions can be measured. |
| 12:26.51 | so_solid_moo | you're misunderstanding. |
| 12:26.55 | so_solid_moo | "low resolution" isn't absolute |
| 12:27.08 | so_solid_moo | the human eye is capable of vastly higher resolution than the colour on the olpc screen |
| 12:27.24 | so_solid_moo | "is absolute".. even |
| 12:29.08 | Morgreet | Well, resolution is an angular thing, depends on dot pitch and distance from eye. Once you nail those down, resolution at the eye is a very absolute thing. |
| 12:30.23 | Morgreet | In any case, what matters here is the OLPC display's tech, not its size on that machine, since it would be a different physical display for a phone/ebook-reader. |
| 12:30.37 | so_solid_moo | jesus wept. |
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| 12:30.55 | Morgreet | I was just wondering if they were marketting their tech outside OLPC devices. |
| 12:33.36 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:36.33 | Morgreet | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child#Display |
| 12:36.41 | Morgreet | "Negroponte has said at the Technology Review\u2019s Fifth Annual Emerging Technologies Conference that the monochrome display has four times the resolution of the color display." |
| 12:37.49 | fluffs | yes, but dude, its monochrome! |
| 12:37.53 | Psi_ | i cant wait till we start to see color e-paper rollup displays :) |
| 12:38.20 | Psi_ | or even just color rollup displays of any type |
| 12:38.25 | Morgreet | Yeah, the monochrome mode is mainly for reading ebooks. Purely reflective in that mode. |
| 12:41.19 | Morgreet | 1200x900 in that mode, one of the reasons why so many people in the west would like to buy XOs at twice or even 3 times the price. |
| 12:43.08 | Morgreet | Psi_: me too. But I think E-Ink will die, simply because their licensing greed is stopping widespread adoption. They badly need a competitor. |
| 12:45.33 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | OLPC News (2007-01-20): "Kernel: The wireless driver has gone through two rounds of reviews |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | with the upstream kernel networking folks and work continues to get it |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | into the Linux mainline kernel. Marcelo Tosatti also reports that we |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | are down to 5\u20136 interrupts per second (minus a really bad i8042 |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | driver). This is compared with a ~200 per second in a standard Linux |
| 12:46.53 | Morgreet | desktop. This will have a huge positive effect on our battery life." |
| 12:47.11 | Morgreet | LOL, article formatting :-( |
| 12:47.48 | raynet | 5\u20136 interrupts ? |
| 12:47.50 | Morgreet | That's "5-6 interrupts per second" |
| 12:47.54 | raynet | ah |
| 12:48.00 | Morgreet | Yeah, crappy web page, sorry |
| 12:48.08 | Morgreet | http://laptop.media.mit.edu/laptopnews.nsf/2e76a5a80bc36cbf85256cd700545fa5/482b4202b90899b0852572690063e1bb?OpenDocument |
| 12:49.38 | Morgreet | Really looking forward to that driver. Hopefully some other device will feature that same ATI wifi/mesh chip, and we can drive it. |
| 12:54.29 | *** join/#openmoko veroli (n=oliver@BSN-95-206-165.dsl.siol.net) |
| 12:55.22 | SpeedEvil | E-ink is annoying. |
| 12:55.35 | SpeedEvil | I was trying to get a sample of film, to do a _cheap_ display with. |
| 12:55.36 | Morgreet | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:55.36 | Morgreet | " |
| 12:56.02 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: they gave you the cold shoulder? |
| 12:56.08 | SpeedEvil | Basically an array of electrodes like an electrostatic printer. |
| 12:56.17 | SpeedEvil | And you drag the film out over it. |
| 12:56.32 | SpeedEvil | And they were basically completely uninterested. |
| 12:57.13 | Morgreet | Yeah, you're not the first to say it. The main barrier to E-Ink (product) is E-Ink (company). |
| 12:57.21 | SpeedEvil | Advantages are that the length is unconstrained, and the film can be easily replaced. |
| 12:57.25 | SpeedEvil | And cost. |
| 12:57.47 | SpeedEvil | Disadvantage is of course it is literally e-paper, which doesn't change until you move the printer over it. |
| 12:59.08 | Morgreet | The cost should be near zero once plant costs are recouped, since it's sort of printable by the acre. :-) In practice, E-Ink greed will ensure it never becomes common, at a guess. |
| 13:00.03 | SpeedEvil | Cost is far from zero. |
| 13:00.17 | SpeedEvil | Driving it like a 'proper' display is quite complex. |
| 13:00.28 | Eblis | it'll become common once their patent expires :) |
| 13:00.37 | *** join/#openmoko green-sharpie (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net) |
| 13:02.29 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=libervis@tuxhacker/libervis) |
| 13:02.32 | Morgreet | Yeah, the drivers are the costly part, not "printable" by current tech. But every few months someone announces progress on printing circuits, so it'll happen one day. |
| 13:02.39 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 13:03.06 | SpeedEvil | It's a pity the tech does not lend itself to simple brightly coloured displays. |
| 13:03.12 | SpeedEvil | You've gotta have filters. |
| 13:03.48 | SpeedEvil | Not as bad as LCD, where at best a reflective display gets 1/6th of the light back. |
| 13:04.13 | SpeedEvil | (1/2 lost in polariser, 2/3 lost by light hitting the wrong colour pixel) |
| 13:04.46 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: someone'll come out with 5-state particles for the microbeads (black, white, and RGB), and then it'll be a colour tech without filters. |
| 13:05.03 | SpeedEvil | That's got real problems. |
| 13:05.16 | Morgreet | Engineers love problems ;-) |
| 13:05.16 | SpeedEvil | The 2-state is simple, it's repel or attract the black bit. |
| 13:05.36 | SpeedEvil | And even with that, there is a problem with remenant image. |
| 13:06.02 | SpeedEvil | Making a 3-state (you don't want to go more otherwise you get viewing angle problems is much harder. |
| 13:09.01 | SpeedEvil | As you can only have the electrostatic field go one way. |
| 13:09.16 | SpeedEvil | Adding sensors changes things - but makes it even more complex. |
| 13:10.27 | *** join/#openmoko kerwood|afk (n=Marshall@c-69-255-98-58.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 13:12.35 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:12.37 | Morgreet | I wonder if MEMS people are working on mechanical pixels, sort of like a colour wheel turned inside out, ie. a rotor in each pixel. Lots of possible ways forward with that, but for basic ebook display it should be fairly straightforward, assuming (big assumption) some non-warp drive means of manufacture. |
| 13:12.49 | Morgreet | Ie. I mean pre-nanotech ;-) |
| 13:14.06 | Morgreet | Ie. it's macroscale assembly, not nano, and not atomically precise. |
| 13:15.22 | SpeedEvil | That may well be true, but without nanotech, it's going to be prohibitively expensive. |
| 13:15.56 | SpeedEvil | The ebooks get round that by having really simple bi-coloured (black/white) beads, with differeent charges on the black and white side. |
| 13:16.10 | Morgreet | Just googling for MEMS + display, there's quite a lot of stuff going on! |
| 13:16.18 | SpeedEvil | These are free to move in little bubbles of oil, and when you put + against one side, they go to that side. |
| 13:16.31 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - MEMS is largely irrelevant for big displays though. |
| 13:16.44 | Morgreet | They're going for TB market :P |
| 13:16.47 | Morgreet | TV* |
| 13:16.58 | SpeedEvil | I mean laptop and PDA sized. |
| 13:17.05 | SpeedEvil | Projection doesn't work so well at that scale. |
| 13:17.51 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 13:20.03 | *** join/#openmoko rayplayer (n=kaspar@176.151.76.83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 13:20.27 | rayplayer | hello! Is there somebody |
| 13:20.32 | Morgreet | I'll add "3D display" to the v2 wishlist .... ;-))) |
| 13:21.22 | rayplayer | Does somebody know, when the neo1973 is gonna be shipped? |
| 13:21.29 | Morgreet | counter |
| 13:21.30 | aloril | 2 days 16:38:30 (2.693 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.693 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.693 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (187) |
| 13:26.10 | rayplayer | thanks a lot. Go on, cu! |
| 13:26.20 | rayplayer | /exit |
| 13:26.21 | Morgreet | cyu |
| 13:29.42 | Morgreet | http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=231 |
| 13:29.49 | Morgreet | OMG FPGA!!!! ;-))) |
| 13:29.56 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@ip5451781a.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 13:34.44 | Morgreet | Hehe |
| 13:35.34 | Morgreet | Cripes, I hope the concept of "early april fool" never takes off .... It's bad enough just 3 days each side of 1st Apr :-( |
| 13:36.43 | Morgreet | OTOH, I guess marketting uses the concept of april fool all year 'round ... |
| 13:37.50 | hrw | cu |
| 13:39.17 | SpeedEvil | If only they'd do nice surprises too though. |
| 13:39.27 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@80-218-148-33.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:39.34 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 13:39.47 | SpeedEvil | 'Yes, this feature will be present. Yes it was advertised, and you bought it because of that, no we don't have a timescale' |
| 13:39.54 | jannu | SpeedEvil: I tought the whole point of marketing was to do nice surprises |
| 13:40.12 | jannu | SpeedEvil: especially for the engineers |
| 13:40.29 | SpeedEvil | 'We did too put a disclaimer on it, it's clearly marked on the bottom, in 1pt salmon on pink text' |
| 13:41.18 | Morgreet | jannu: nah, the whole point of marketting is to provide employment for the non-productive. |
| 13:41.40 | jannu | Morgreet: so why am i not employed then? |
| 13:41.58 | Morgreet | jannu: lazy? ;-))))) |
| 13:42.32 | jannu | Morgreet: never! |
| 13:42.33 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@ip5451781a.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 13:42.33 | Morgreet | Hehe |
| 13:42.33 | jannu | Morgreet: which is marketing speak for always |
| 13:43.30 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 13:44.27 | Morgreet | In a sane world, products would simply get added to a global products tree as they are released, with full machine-searchable descriptions and drill-down data, nothing hidden. And you could find what you want with SQL or grep. :-) |
| 13:44.42 | Morgreet | No need for a larketting middleman layer. |
| 13:44.47 | Morgreet | marketting* |
| 13:46.51 | Morgreet | Marketting is just a distortion -- the products with the best marketting make it, rather than the best products. |
| 13:47.02 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54875A44.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:47.15 | CM | one.. |
| 13:47.54 | Morgreet | Leave my tea alone ;-) |
| 13:48.02 | CM | Hehe |
| 13:48.50 | Eblis | Morgreet: you need to have a lot of people working so you have a lot of consumers with money handy |
| 13:49.09 | Eblis | it goes round and round :) |
| 13:49.44 | jannu | Eblis: Just like with communism you needed a lot of bureaucracy and three stamps on each application |
| 13:50.16 | Eblis | hehe |
| 13:50.31 | jannu | Eblis: the only difference is that in capitalism the paper most people spend their lives moving around is money |
| 13:50.52 | Morgreet | Oh no, not the C word ... it stops all rational discussion from our US friends ;-) |
| 13:51.21 | Morgreet | Like the N word in Europe ;-) |
| 13:51.22 | Eblis | getting in debt in the first years of employement and then working untill 60 years old to pay that debt |
| 13:52.00 | robtaylor | xkr47: As a by-product of the libsydney discussion Jean-Marc coded a fast C resampling library supporting both floating point and fixed point and being licensed under BSD. |
| 13:52.04 | robtaylor | woo |
| 13:53.49 | jannu | Eblis: and spending most of the money you make on things you don't need in order to give the money to other people who... |
| 13:54.11 | Eblis | yep, an infinite circle :) |
| 13:54.29 | Eblis | but we do need the OpenMoko :D |
| 13:54.45 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081EEA0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:54.57 | jannu | Eblis: and the great thing is that people like that keep the society rolling in such a way that smarter people can get by with a lot less work |
| 13:55.34 | SpeedEvil | It's a pity anonymous E-cash is illegal generally. |
| 13:55.46 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 13:56.20 | jannu | I see openmoko as a way to bring some sanity into the mobile phone business |
| 13:57.14 | Morgreet | LOL, I think you underestimate the current level of insanity :P |
| 13:57.52 | jannu | might be |
| 13:58.07 | Eblis | i like the idea behind it, it needed to happen |
| 13:58.27 | Morgreet | yes |
| 13:58.31 | jannu | I mean, just think about the hardware in samsung f700 |
| 13:59.00 | SpeedEvil | There are _beautiful_ phones out there. |
| 13:59.09 | SpeedEvil | With wonderful hardware, in tiny packages. |
| 13:59.24 | SpeedEvil | That are almost utterly useless, compared to what they could be. |
| 13:59.29 | jannu | exactly. and there's basically no limit to what you could do with those |
| 13:59.38 | jannu | with open specs and open software |
| 13:59.51 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B00CD8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:00.22 | SpeedEvil | I had hopes for the Motorola A1200 - but they've done essentially the most annoying thing. Used the linux kernel for its fun stuff, to ease their development, and released the source for it like good boys. |
| 14:00.36 | SpeedEvil | But not actually given any way to run programs on the phone. |
| 14:00.50 | jannu | e.g. these four videos by nokia: http://youtube.com/watch?v=beiMw1GkAQ8 http://youtube.com/watch?v=f5iBBEp0Efg http://youtube.com/watch?v=JJ4afZpQAvI http://youtube.com/watch?v=9qIZBo8a_pA |
| 14:00.55 | SpeedEvil | It is a pretty, small, featurefull phone. |
| 14:01.03 | SpeedEvil | Can't do youtube ATM. |
| 14:01.17 | jannu | most of the stuff in those is completely doable in current hardware |
| 14:01.35 | Eblis | the problem is that i'll have to start saving a few good months if i want to buy the phone :( |
| 14:01.36 | Morgreet | Well the good news is, as long as the FOSS community remains strong on licensing, at some point manufacturers will simply not be able to compete with closed phones, because they'll have to bear the extra cost of software development. So, time is on our side, in due course we will have all the top phones. |
| 14:02.03 | SpeedEvil | It's not quite that simple. |
| 14:02.17 | SpeedEvil | The networks have a big impact, with subsidies. |
| 14:02.26 | aloril | SpeedEvil: about mesh: imagine earth covered with 1mx1m nodes: so there are about 20 million hops from one side of earth to other side |
| 14:02.46 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: all the networks care about is some sort of standard platform |
| 14:03.04 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: they'd really prefer to not be tied to certain manufacturers |
| 14:03.05 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. there's quite a bit of inertia in the mobile industry |
| 14:03.11 | aloril | SpeedEvil: however, you could form 'channel' line between nodes at opposite sides of earth would communicate with each other and nodes between endpoints just pass traffic |
| 14:03.18 | SpeedEvil | And branding, and locking some features out on 'cheap' contents. |
| 14:03.24 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: yep |
| 14:03.34 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: OK, spread the cost of closed phone development across manufacturers and networks. The point still applies. As time goes on, they will because more and more disadvantaged vs outfits without software costs. |
| 14:03.40 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: though the latter is really an american abberration |
| 14:03.55 | aloril | SpeedEvil: so I think you can get 'backbone' type stuff too with suitable configuration |
| 14:03.58 | SpeedEvil | aloril: right - however, you're also interfering with adjacent nodes along all the length of that path. |
| 14:04.18 | jannu | robtaylor: it's actually pretty bad in europe as well |
| 14:04.38 | aloril | SpeedEvil: depends on power level, if communication is over 1mm distance, then interfere should not be big ;-) |
| 14:04.48 | robtaylor | jannu: it is? its ok in UK, afaict |
| 14:04.58 | SpeedEvil | Also, you've got the problem that there are natural bottlenecks. |
| 14:05.00 | aloril | especially if its optical or even beyond it |
| 14:05.24 | jannu | robtaylor: in carrier r&d the most important question has always been how the service can be billed like good old fixed line phone calls |
| 14:05.38 | SpeedEvil | Consider oceans for example, people in oceans will be rare, and very, very desired paths. |
| 14:05.45 | SpeedEvil | Which will be utterly congested. |
| 14:05.58 | aloril | SpeedEvil: well... I assumed whole earth being covered ;-) |
| 14:06.09 | SpeedEvil | You really do need overlaid long-haul networks on different frequencies. |
| 14:06.22 | SpeedEvil | Unless the links are true point-point. |
| 14:06.25 | jannu | robtaylor: it's not awful here in finland either. it's just 15 years behind the rest of technology |
| 14:06.44 | aloril | don't think so, you can build long-haul type stuff with mesh network too if its configured right |
| 14:06.47 | jannu | robtaylor: actually make that 10 years |
| 14:07.13 | robtaylor | jannu: but the operatorots don't lock out functionailty, they just dont provide some network services |
| 14:07.22 | SpeedEvil | Consider that if you are going through 20000 nodes to talk to someone, then 20000 people will be going through your node too. |
| 14:07.26 | robtaylor | jannu: thats a bit differet to cingular in the states |
| 14:07.30 | jannu | robtaylor: yep. that's true. |
| 14:08.05 | aloril | ah, but assumed that those 20 million nodes were doing nothing except passing traffic, ie acting as back-haul |
| 14:08.07 | jannu | robtaylor: so we're in the '90s and the u.s. is in the dark age |
| 14:08.40 | SpeedEvil | Right - and that means - if they are long haul - that you'll be directly sharing that path with many, many others. |
| 14:08.42 | Elrond | Back. |
| 14:08.59 | robtaylor | e.g. orange/francetelecom have been doing a lot to promote linux on phones |
| 14:09.25 | aloril | what is difference to dedicated long haul? |
| 14:09.40 | jannu | robtaylor: yes, but linux in and of itself doesn't really help |
| 14:09.46 | SpeedEvil | s/back-haul/long-haul/ |
| 14:10.01 | jannu | robtaylor: if the hardware specs and the ui code is all closed |
| 14:10.04 | Morgreet | jannu: with the US in the dark ages, and the UK in 1984, we're in a right mess :-( |
| 14:10.21 | aloril | SpeedEvil: of course I agree that its not feasible for every node to talk with every node, but I think this is problem with special build long haul too |
| 14:10.27 | SpeedEvil | At least in the UK, buying SIM-only and sim-free phones is easy. |
| 14:10.52 | SpeedEvil | The reason you need a seperate network is to seperate local traffic from long-distance. |
| 14:11.04 | SpeedEvil | So you don't get radio interference between the two. |
| 14:11.22 | Morgreet | We'll have to see what the UK police state does about open phones though. It's OK for now, but I'm not optimistic about the future. |
| 14:11.37 | aloril | isn't that just our primitive antennae technology? |
| 14:11.57 | jannu | without a truly open stack a linux phone is just as useless as a totally closed phone |
| 14:12.00 | robtaylor | Morgreet: we're all in 1984 ;) |
| 14:12.06 | SpeedEvil | aloril: no - there are fundamental limits - if you can't decode a distant signal, it appears as noise. |
| 14:12.26 | SpeedEvil | jannu: how do you figure that? If you can use the hardware from your own programs. |
| 14:12.33 | Morgreet | robtaylor: it's true, that 1984 is definitely consolidating, worldwide. |
| 14:12.45 | SpeedEvil | Without any limits for 99.9% of users. |
| 14:12.50 | aloril | SpeedEvil: sure, but there are 2 parts: sending and receiving: both need to be directed, not only receiving one |
| 14:12.54 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. but if the whole userspace side is closed source |
| 14:13.12 | robtaylor | jannu: that's true, but all we need to do is help form a market where its just too costly and TTM is too high if you don't use open components ;) |
| 14:13.32 | SpeedEvil | aloril: Directivity of an antenna is at best 1.22* wavelength / diameter of antenna. |
| 14:13.34 | jannu | robtaylor: yep. just like on the pc side |
| 14:13.44 | SpeedEvil | So there are hard physical limits. |
| 14:14.42 | Morgreet | robtaylor: seconded. The best way of fighting restrictive markets is to make the profits from open tech larger. Then greed will do the rest. |
| 14:14.53 | aloril | SpeedEvil: OK, so you just move to higher and higher frequency then ;-) |
| 14:15.22 | robtaylor | Morgreet: you could put a more positive spin on it, 1984 is only needed when people are completely uncontrollable by the elite.. |
| 14:15.50 | jannu | robtaylor: just thinking what i do with my pc now and compare that to any games console |
| 14:16.17 | Morgreet | robtaylor: ah, but that then begs the question of who the elite are, and why they want control. It's simpler to just assume that money talks. |
| 14:16.24 | jannu | robtaylor: that's the sort of difference i believe openmoko will have on phones |
| 14:16.27 | SpeedEvil | On the UK 'police state' - looking at the mobile phone laws. It's illegal to change IMEI if you don't have the makers permission. It's illegal to sell equipment that can change the IMEI - including phones - if you believe it's being used for criminality. Unfortunately, if you can change IMEI, aboyut the fifth person to buy it is going to try cloning someones phone. There don't seem to be any direct regulations other than changing the IMEI. |
| 14:16.58 | robtaylor | Morgreet, jannu: nod, FLOSS wins in teh end in the market place cos its more efficient. |
| 14:17.37 | SpeedEvil | I can see competition from makers that make their phones more open. |
| 14:17.44 | SpeedEvil | Even if not FLOSS. |
| 14:17.55 | jannu | SpeedEvil: there are a lot of legitimate restrictions on mobile phones and IMHO that's where closed source software has an advantage |
| 14:18.00 | robtaylor | Morgreet: well, the elite are simply the people who poulate the upper regions of our power structures. nothing to controversial there =) |
| 14:18.20 | SpeedEvil | But it would have to be a _large_ platform to compete. |
| 14:18.32 | jannu | SpeedEvil: remember that the network is used e.g. for distress calls |
| 14:18.59 | robtaylor | jannu: i don't see how thats an argument against floss |
| 14:19.14 | SpeedEvil | If several phone makers come out in the next couple of months, with a compatible platform that lets programmers access camera/display/keyboard/... then that could take away from momentum. |
| 14:19.16 | robtaylor | jannu: ok, i do accept the problems with an openly licensed GSM stack, however |
| 14:19.51 | SpeedEvil | Especially if it's on millions of phones. |
| 14:20.02 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: well, luckily that wont happen.. |
| 14:20.09 | SpeedEvil | Probably not. |
| 14:20.24 | jannu | robtaylor: not against floss per se, but one needs to acknowledge the fact that possible dirsuption in mobile networks is a serious problem |
| 14:20.24 | Morgreet | No controversy because you're speaking to the converted. :-) The man in the street seems to take the media and politics at face value though and sees public/consumer control as the talk of cranks. |
| 14:20.27 | *** join/#openmoko lucas123 (n=Meijer@lucas.demon.nl) |
| 14:20.37 | jannu | robtaylor: which will cost lives |
| 14:20.59 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: the reason everyone (and i really do mean everyone, can't think of any manufacturer that isn't looking at linux) is looking at linux is that they can't afford to build a whole new platform themselves |
| 14:21.20 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: the commodity level is too high |
| 14:21.24 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - I know. Especially with ever decreasing spin times. |
| 14:21.33 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: yeah :) |
| 14:21.33 | Morgreet | Aye, money, money, money. Software development is extremely expensive. |
| 14:21.55 | jannu | which is why imho keeping the gsm side closed is actually a pretty good idea |
| 14:21.55 | robtaylor | jannu: well, thats the problem i was talking about with an open GSM stack |
| 14:22.04 | jannu | robtaylor: exactly |
| 14:22.13 | robtaylor | jannu: allowing users to modify their gsm stack would be baaad |
| 14:22.38 | SpeedEvil | A open source GSM stack, with signed code, and the ability for the maker to allow features to be added might be good. |
| 14:22.51 | robtaylor | jannu: though there's nothig to say you couldn't do a BSD license GSM stack. but there's really no need for that. The current GSM stacks are very stable |
| 14:22.59 | jannu | robtaylor: obviously the mobile network could be designed to withstand abuse |
| 14:23.04 | robtaylor | jannu: i guess itgets interesting when we start talking about 4g |
| 14:23.15 | jannu | robtaylor: like the internet basically is |
| 14:23.21 | SpeedEvil | The mobile network cannot determine between abusing phones though. |
| 14:23.28 | jannu | robtaylor: true. very interesting |
| 14:23.44 | SpeedEvil | Or even a non-abusing phone, and a cloned phone. |
| 14:23.52 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. because the current standards don't design for it |
| 14:24.01 | SpeedEvil | Not so much. |
| 14:24.23 | SpeedEvil | How do you - with two identical transmitters, that don't want to tell you their ID, determine between them? |
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| 14:24.48 | jannu | SpeedEvil: well. you don't |
| 14:25.21 | jannu | SpeedEvil: unless you have an id component which can't be spoofed (the current approach) |
| 14:25.26 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 14:25.47 | jannu | SpeedEvil: or rely on secondary identity measures (the internet approach) |
| 14:26.24 | Eblis | zero knowledge protocol ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof |
| 14:26.24 | Morgreet | GSM is a component, and its comms stack should be nowhere near any host CPU. We have nothing but contempt for Windows GDI printers in which half the printer logic runs in the host ... well it should be exactly the same for GSM modules. |
| 14:26.32 | SpeedEvil | Secondary measures are not implied at the charging time. |
| 14:26.44 | SpeedEvil | They use primary measures - what line you are connecting to , ... |
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| 14:27.23 | XorA | ~fish lrg |
| 14:27.35 | apt | ACTION slaps lrg around with a large trout |
| 14:27.35 | jannu | SpeedEvil: exactly. the current standard has bee designed with billing as a main priority |
| 14:27.41 | SpeedEvil | I see absolutely nothing wrong with putting all the smarts you can in the CPU, as long as it does't impact on battery life. |
| 14:27.59 | SpeedEvil | Because spectrum is scarce. |
| 14:28.04 | XorA | counter |
| 14:28.04 | aloril | 2 days 15:31:55 (2.647 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.647 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.647 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (188) |
| 14:28.06 | SpeedEvil | And relatively costly. |
| 14:28.11 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: you've contradicted yourself in that single line. |
| 14:28.13 | jannu | SpeedEvil: i.e. "how do we get their money?" as opposed to the internet's "how do we make communication possible?" |
| 14:28.19 | SpeedEvil | Not quite. |
| 14:28.26 | SpeedEvil | Morgreet: which line? |
| 14:28.34 | aloril | there could be uses for modified distress call in some situations: for example there might be somebody else closer than official ambulance that could also help |
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| 14:28.55 | SpeedEvil | jannu: there is a difference between 'the internet' and means of accessing the internet. Those are almost always charged. |
| 14:29.01 | aloril | or maybe in case somebody is stealing you people around could start tracking thief |
| 14:29.02 | aloril | etc.. |
| 14:31.04 | aloril | however I think both are achievable even with keeping current mode as long as you can talk and have internet connection going same time |
| 14:31.41 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: re battery life. An embedded, GSM-specific SoC can have VASTLY less power consumption than any generic host, because it need only come into play when the protocol demands it. The fact that one doesn't want the comms layer compromised makes the whole point moot anyway. It has no business running on the host CPU. |
| 14:31.41 | jannu | SpeedEvil: just like there's a difference between the mobile network and accessing the mobile network |
| 14:32.49 | CM | Morgreet: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php |
| 14:32.51 | SpeedEvil | Morgreet: I agree - in this case. A GSM stack it makes sense - unless the host CPU can be woken up and turned off _very_ fast while preserving state. |
| 14:33.07 | CM | Was that was you talked about this morning? ;) |
| 14:33.25 | CM | In case the v2 didn't have a slide-out keyboard |
| 14:33.26 | SpeedEvil | jannu: but access to that network has to be billable - or otherwise priced in some manner, because in places it is very, very congested - the access points. |
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| 14:33.56 | jannu | SpeedEvil: what I'm saying is that the main difference is that due to the desire to design around billing there are practically no advanced services within the mobile network |
| 14:33.59 | SpeedEvil | There is lots of (generally, not always) spare capacity around that netowek. |
| 14:34.12 | SpeedEvil | Sure, I agree with that. |
| 14:34.12 | Morgreet | CM: I didn't mention that one today, but yes, that's the well-known Freedom keyboard. |
| 14:34.35 | CM | Ah, ok. Looks nice |
| 14:35.06 | jannu | SpeedEvil: which is great now, because we only have one global network |
| 14:35.52 | jannu | SpeedEvil: if mobile companies would have gotten it in early '90s we might still have no open gprs internet gateways |
| 14:36.22 | jannu | SpeedEvil: because they'd be promoting their own network |
| 14:36.50 | jannu | SpeedEvil: now, because their network sucks, they have to connect it with the internet |
| 14:37.19 | SpeedEvil | It's just you have to have some means of charging or rationing at the comnnection node. |
| 14:37.19 | SpeedEvil | Otehrwise you'll get people wandering around makdoing P2P stuff, and emergency calls not getting throughl. |
| 14:37.35 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:38.17 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. charging for connection is more or less the same on both networks |
| 14:38.59 | SpeedEvil | Logical lowest-cost routing (from the network providers point of view) would be good. |
| 14:49.05 | jannu | SpeedEvil: but you also need to have restrictions so that the emergency bandwidth can't be used for arbitrary stuff |
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| 14:51.38 | Morgreet | Wow, big split. |
| 14:51.39 | Morgreet | cya Speed |
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| 14:51.53 | CM | Morgreet: I should have linked to the mobility side instead |
| 14:51.53 | CM | Looks like a good keyboard :) |
| 14:51.55 | Morgreet | I'll buy some sort of CC-side keyboard when I get the Neo. I've got too used to the Nokia Communicator, lack of a keyboard is just slumming it for me. |
| 14:51.56 | Morgreet | CC-size* |
| 14:51.57 | CM | I'd like to try something like hexinput first |
| 14:51.58 | CM | Or I'll just get something like that small bt keyboard |
| 14:51.59 | SpeedEvil | hexinput? |
| 14:52.00 | CM | SpeedEvil: http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html |
| 14:52.01 | CM | Don't know if it's good or so, but I like the hex-shape ;) |
| 14:52.01 | robtaylor | CM: i kinda like the idea |
| 14:52.01 | SpeedEvil | Ah. you mean divide up into 16 Interesting. |
| 14:52.17 | CM | It's like a mix between stroke and tap |
| 14:52.52 | CM | And that quong layout looks pretty nice, just missing åäö for me |
| 14:53.01 | robtaylor | I've been thking of doing a real handwriting recognition engine |
| 14:53.39 | robtaylor | I think i've got an idea that works for cursive and printed, and can use printed to learn your cursive |
| 14:53.51 | SpeedEvil | I've considered something like http://easygestures.mozdev.org/ |
| 14:54.05 | SpeedEvil | This is stroke based menuing system basically. |
| 14:54.20 | SpeedEvil | hold down a button, and you get a radial menu. |
| 14:54.23 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: doesnt openmoko have that already? |
| 14:54.37 | CM | Nice :) |
| 14:54.37 | CM | Some mix of handwriting reconition and T9 should work pretty good |
| 14:54.50 | robtaylor | CM: T9 is patented to the eyeballs |
| 14:55.00 | SpeedEvil | stroke in that direction - even without waiting for the display, and you get a choice. |
| 14:55.18 | SpeedEvil | 2 layers or so gets you a keyboard for every letter in two strokes with hints |
| 14:55.25 | buz | i would have so gotten the nokia e90 if neo didnt appear on the scene |
| 14:55.27 | buz | now i'm torn |
| 14:55.33 | CM | Bah.. Stinking patents.. Let's just call it "heuristic dictionary spelling" instead then |
| 14:55.44 | robtaylor | CM: the idea would be that as an engine learns your handwriting, it sends it back to a central server (probably via tor, for anonymity) |
| 14:55.55 | CM | robtaylor: Ah, cool |
| 14:55.57 | SpeedEvil | Ah - tor over GPRS. |
| 14:56.00 | robtaylor | CM: so each new release would have a better engine |
| 14:56.04 | SpeedEvil | You _want_ this thing to fail, don't you. |
| 14:56.08 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 14:56.14 | robtaylor | CM: the hard bit is foiling poisonings and outlying results |
| 14:56.50 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: have you seen dasher? |
| 14:56.51 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: well, it doesn;t really matter when stuff is transmitted back, and the user could of course switch it off |
| 14:56.52 | SpeedEvil | Why would you want the engine not on the device? |
| 14:57.31 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: no, the engine would be on the device, its just things it learned get sent back for the global learning set |
| 14:57.53 | SpeedEvil | Robot101: no. I've not looked much in the touchscreen data entry set. |
| 14:58.15 | robtaylor | dasher's cool. just a pain with the amount of screen real estateit takes |
| 14:58.16 | CM | Robot101: I think dasher look a bit hysterical with all those colors rushing by |
| 14:58.33 | xkr47 | robtaylor, yeah, thank CM for that :) |
| 14:58.34 | SpeedEvil | ROB1963: in the assumption that there will be commonality between people? |
| 14:58.36 | Robot101 | SpeedEvil: right, but you reminded me of it with your radial input thing |
| 14:58.41 | xkr47 | or well |
| 14:58.59 | xkr47 | also the author of libsydney obviously |
| 14:59.00 | robtaylor | heh |
| 14:59.19 | SpeedEvil | I don't see a problem with simply adding a 'share info' button to the UI, and encouraging users to use it. |
| 14:59.21 | SpeedEvil | Much simpler. |
| 14:59.57 | Morgreet | There is no need to define a central repository for learned strokes. This is non-realtime data, and anyway, centralized services suck in general, for a huge pile of reasons. |
| 14:59.59 | CM | robtaylor: Or maybe a simple way to "Submit my statistics" |
| 15:00.06 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: well, yes, it doent matter *when* its sent back, that can be dependant on lots of things |
| 15:00.20 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: but yes, the assumption is there's commonality. which there is |
| 15:00.36 | CM | I'd prefer to send back all of it as a batch when I'm on a bt pan or usb lan |
| 15:00.37 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure how much 1000 peoples statistics will help over 20 though. |
| 15:00.55 | robtaylor | its not statistics, its the actual learned cursive strokes |
| 15:01.08 | CM | robtaylor: What languages btw? Or should I say characters? |
| 15:01.36 | robtaylor | it'd be a HMM and a TDNN |
| 15:02.08 | SpeedEvil | This is for proper handwriting recognition? |
| 15:02.22 | SpeedEvil | What's the display again, 60*40mm? |
| 15:02.45 | robtaylor | CM: well, i think you could design it pretty language agnostic. I've seens similar methods used for arabic. but for pictograms, i dunno. maybe the TDNN would be enough |
| 15:02.49 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy_ (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 15:02.52 | Morgreet | If you're going to build up a knowledge base for recognizing cursive strokes, might as well do it for full handwriting, far more useful. |
| 15:03.18 | CM | robtaylor: True. Would be a cool project though :) |
| 15:03.42 | robtaylor | SpeedEvil: well you can do the same as on the messagepad. but yeah handwritings not gonna be huge on a small device, i'm thinking more N800/tablets for real usecases |
| 15:03.44 | SpeedEvil | Training users on optimum input systems is cool, but first we need something anyone can pickup and use. |
| 15:04.01 | SpeedEvil | for which handwriting is a plus. |
| 15:04.34 | Morgreet | Yay, imagine, a future where someone/something can actually recognize your doctor's handwriting ... |
| 15:04.50 | SpeedEvil | As long as it doesn't do autocorrect :) |
| 15:04.50 | CM | SpeedEvil: Dasher example: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/images/newdasher.gif |
| 15:04.53 | robtaylor | Morgreet: i think *that* might be wishful thinking ;) |
| 15:04.56 | aloril | with 2D paper you have only end result that you read, however with touch screen you have also writing timing data so I think traditional handwriting will probably not be optimal input method |
| 15:05.19 | Morgreet | I think it's actually code, encrypted so that only the pharmacist can decrypt it :P |
| 15:05.21 | SpeedEvil | Timing data, and no need to evenly space. |
| 15:05.28 | SpeedEvil | which adds. |
| 15:05.38 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 15:05.47 | aloril | and with multitouch even multiple fingers |
| 15:06.09 | robtaylor | aloril: you are right there. Handwriting may become obsoleted eventually |
| 15:07.40 | buz | dasher looks cool and really really weird |
| 15:07.51 | Clint | it is really weird |
| 15:08.05 | robtaylor | aloril: I have tried to think of more efficient input methods, but not had luck yet |
| 15:08.30 | SpeedEvil | With a decent camera, eye-tracker input with dasher would be very cool. |
| 15:08.34 | robtaylor | i though maybe a two-d dasher (with the letters circuling your pointer) would be cool |
| 15:08.37 | SpeedEvil | Speech is about it. |
| 15:08.44 | buz | speech sucks |
| 15:08.49 | SpeedEvil | In some ways. |
| 15:08.50 | buz | i dont want people snooping on me when i write mails |
| 15:08.52 | Clint | i'd rather have palm graffiti |
| 15:08.52 | robtaylor | but it requires you to pick up and reset your pen too frequently |
| 15:09.05 | SpeedEvil | Graffiti is quite handy. |
| 15:09.20 | robtaylor | *for |
| 15:09.36 | robtaylor | heh |
| 15:10.42 | robtaylor | it woudn't be that dangerous ;) |
| 15:10.49 | robtaylor | bluetooth in your head! |
| 15:10.52 | CM | robtaylor: A tunnel dasher would be crazy btw.. |
| 15:11.17 | Morgreet | No need to say speed out loud, it can be subvocalized, most of the cues are still in there. |
| 15:11.18 | aloril | robtaylor: primitive idea: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002101.html |
| 15:11.18 | CM | Everyone looking over your shoulder would think you were playing some game |
| 15:11.22 | Morgreet | speech* |
| 15:12.16 | Morgreet | And a throat mike attached to your collar will pick it up. |
| 15:12.38 | CM | What about running Hildon on the Neo? http://blogs.gnome.org/view/lucasr/2007/02/09/0 |
| 15:13.09 | robtaylor | CM: that is such a cool idea! |
| 15:13.27 | robtaylor | CM: ooh, now i want to code one up |
| 15:14.04 | CM | robtaylor: I'd be happy to test it, or help in any way I can :) |
| 15:14.35 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 15:14.54 | robtaylor | aloril: i've been trying to pursude one of my freinds who works at Plastic Logic that they really should do some work on flexible multi-input displays.. |
| 15:15.45 | aloril | gloves + (multi)touch might add further potential |
| 15:15.52 | aloril | (+ camera) |
| 15:16.28 | robtaylor | aloril: in not really conviced by that, it'd restrict the privacy of your communication |
| 15:17.44 | aloril | + EEG |
| 15:18.01 | SpeedEvil | sing-dasher. lower tones = down :) |
| 15:18.14 | SpeedEvil | Or whistle-input. |
| 15:18.28 | SpeedEvil | For maximisign annoyance to others. |
| 15:19.08 | aloril | with gloves and HMD you could even keep neo in pocket and still input/output |
| 15:19.19 | *** join/#openmoko borg__ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 15:19.54 | robtaylor | aloril: or a bluetooth twiddler |
| 15:20.23 | aloril | or just wires in fingers ;-) |
| 15:20.34 | hadara | EEG is in the works btw. :-) |
| 15:20.42 | aloril | Morgreet: you might want to add this to v2 wishlist: http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ver0/ |
| 15:20.53 | Morgreet | Looking |
| 15:21.35 | *** join/#openmoko SANDMAN1080 (n=chatzill@adsl-074-164-065-177.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) |
| 15:22.59 | Morgreet | Hehe. With that recent US attempt at legislating against crossing the road while playing an iPod, I can just imagine what they'd make of displays built into glasses. :P But yeah, it has to come. |
| 15:23.41 | aloril | Morgreet: didn't see multitouch in wishlist either (or I missed it somehow) |
| 15:24.16 | Morgreet | aloril: you're right, enough people have mentioned multi-touch for it to be on there. |
| 15:24.48 | Morgreet | Done :P |
| 15:25.38 | aloril | Morgreet: 2-3 batteries: one internal (as in v1), 1-2 AA's that you can replace when run down: -> really long runtime (in heavy usage from hours to days) |
| 15:25.54 | aloril | though I guess that will happen as external accessory in v1 too |
| 15:26.26 | Morgreet | That's more along the lines of my modular phone suggestion, but I didn't add that because nobody else wanted it. |
| 15:27.06 | SpeedEvil | wated is different from not believing to be manufacturable with no compromise. |
| 15:27.29 | Morgreet | aloril: do we know how the battery is attached physically to the Neo yet? Eg. can a larger battery be attached in the same place directly? |
| 15:27.55 | aloril | Morgreet: larger battery is not enough, I don't want it *that* big ;-) |
| 15:28.04 | Morgreet | aloril: hehehe |
| 15:28.23 | Morgreet | 12V heavy duty lead-acid, huh .... |
| 15:28.27 | aloril | just swappable battery while its using 100% of CPU ;-) |
| 15:29.27 | aloril | Morgreet: hehe, I guess what would give hmm.. if current is 3h heavy usage, then it might be close to 1000 hours |
| 15:30.09 | Morgreet | aloril: just plugging an external pack into the USB is not enough? |
| 15:31.03 | aloril | Morgreet: yeah, I guess need to settle for that, but having it internal is more convenient (and at the same time would give powered hub too) |
| 15:31.44 | aloril | might be possible even on v1 |
| 15:33.30 | Morgreet | aloril: I think the problem with "interesting" h/w design is FIC's ambivalence about the target audience. Yes, we want these things, but as long as they want Mom+Dad as a target, and/or as long as they want to sell the same h/w in the WinMobile market, then we have a problem ... they're just not going to produce what techs really want. |
| 15:34.20 | aloril | Morgreet: yeah, so provide swappable case where you could select a bit bigger case to fit 2 extra AA's and extra USB ports ;-) |
| 15:34.47 | Morgreet | aloril: good idea! It may be as simple as just a case swap! I like that. |
| 15:35.35 | Morgreet | I guess they'd have to not populate the motherboard with components for some of their batches, for cost reasons, but shouldn't be a problem. |
| 15:35.53 | xkr47 | aloril, :) |
| 15:37.57 | Morgreet | Multiple case options are important anyway just for style/colour marketting reasons. It's not a huge leap from there to make the cases actually physically different. |
| 15:38.28 | Morgreet | PCIe, please. 64-lane ;-) |
| 15:39.55 | buz | there is actually a new standard for pcie over cables |
| 15:39.59 | buz | that would be a nice thing |
| 15:40.35 | Morgreet | Oh, remote extension to PCIe? Not seen that, but makes sense. |
| 15:40.37 | *** join/#openmoko loufoque (n=lofoque@smj33-1-82-233-64-48.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:40.37 | buz | i definitely want that in my next notebook |
| 15:40.38 | CM | Have you seen the ATI R600 card? It's huge.. http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4622 |
| 15:40.43 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 15:40.56 | aloril | or even a bit bigger case and put extra USB port and a bit empty space inside case |
| 15:40.56 | buz | gimme 4*4 lane connectors |
| 15:41.07 | CM | 12.4" = 31.5 cm |
| 15:41.33 | Morgreet | aloril: oh, so *THAT's* the lunchbox version that FIC was talking about ..... ;-))))) |
| 15:42.15 | aloril | wifi for v1 without outside items |
| 15:42.38 | aloril | or drill small hole, but small camera ;-) |
| 15:42.46 | aloril | or memory stick or .. |
| 15:43.20 | Morgreet | CM: that's gotta be a PS/GIMP fake |
| 15:43.37 | CM | I don't think so.. It's supposed to be huge.. |
| 15:43.43 | Morgreet | April 1's come early ... |
| 15:44.14 | CM | :) |
| 15:44.16 | buz | 270W? |
| 15:44.21 | buz | thats gotta be a joke |
| 15:44.39 | loufoque | aloril: what are you talking about? |
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| 15:45.49 | Morgreet | If that's a real graphics card, nVidia will be laughing themselves silly. After all, they went through the same ridicule with their "leaf blower". |
| 15:45.54 | aloril | loufoque: optional bigger case for Neo1973 which would include 2 AA's to charge it + extra powered USB ports (powered by those AA's) (and maybe even one inside extra USB port and a bit empty space) |
| 15:46.39 | aloril | loufoque: modification to board should not be big: current USB connector -> to this new case -> new 2-4 USB connectors |
| 15:46.50 | xkr47 | aloril, someone should start a "neo1973 hacks" page :) |
| 15:47.05 | loufoque | aloril: I saw you talking about wifi |
| 15:47.10 | xkr47 | success stories in modding the cute little phone |
| 15:47.12 | aloril | actually, with 3D printer it could be done by somebody else even... |
| 15:47.38 | aloril | loufoque: well.. you could use that extra *inside* USB port + empty space to put wifi USB stick there ;-) |
| 15:47.50 | aloril | loufoque: in this hypothetical bigger case |
| 15:48.25 | buz | i'd totally buy that |
| 15:48.33 | Morgreet | I like the idea of optional cases. It's just plastic. Hardware hackers can then do their thing inside them. |
| 15:48.34 | xkr47 | there should be a lego or mechano case where you could add new features by plugs & bolts :DD |
| 15:48.34 | buz | make it 6mm thicker |
| 15:48.52 | buz | so that a AAA battery fits |
| 15:49.28 | buz | doo |
| 15:49.33 | buz | those are nearly 10mm |
| 15:50.31 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p54995159.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:50.40 | aloril | hmm.. replace internal battery with smaller one and put AAA's on top of that? (or is that really feasible) |
| 15:51.06 | xkr47 | lol |
| 15:51.14 | xkr47 | replace battery with external battery in backpack |
| 15:52.27 | aloril | hmm.. that could work |
| 15:52.30 | aloril | USB over bluetooth |
| 15:52.52 | xkr47 | is there such a thing ? |
| 15:52.55 | aloril | ah... but it doesn't charge neo |
| 15:53.00 | xkr47 | true |
| 15:53.15 | Morgreet | Why focussing on those standard cylindrical batt sizes? Why not just carry standard size mobile batteries as your "rechargeable batteries"? Far better form factor, and greater power density. |
| 15:53.24 | xkr47 | aloril, then hook up a car battery to it :D |
| 15:53.43 | aloril | xkr47: that would give month runtime, don't think I need that much ;-) |
| 15:53.43 | xkr47 | Morgreet, but how do you charge those ? |
| 15:54.04 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.192.12) |
| 15:54.05 | xkr47 | aloril, probably the battery would run empty just as fast without anything connected :) |
| 15:54.09 | Morgreet | xkr47: same as ordinary batteries ... in an external charger :P |
| 15:54.32 | buz | which you get where? |
| 15:54.47 | xkr47 | maybe he means like camera batteries which you can buy chargers for |
| 15:55.13 | Morgreet | buz: think "cameras", not mobiles. Li-Ion powerpacks with external chargers are everywhere. |
| 15:55.25 | buz | mhh those have flat powerpacks? |
| 15:55.42 | buz | my camera has a more cubic thingy |
| 15:56.16 | Matt_PI | run it on a feul cell |
| 15:56.18 | Morgreet | buz: that would depend on the camera. I've only got a DSLR, so the battery is large. |
| 15:57.14 | aloril | Morgreet: AA's are more standard (charging, batteries) -> good price/energy ratio |
| 15:57.57 | Morgreet | aloril: price yes, but you don't get Li-Ion AAA's so you don't get Li-Ion power density. |
| 15:58.14 | Morgreet | NiMH is comparatively poor. |
| 15:59.45 | aloril | yeah, maybe its worth to invest on those, anyway need enough big capacitor to hot swap even with 100% CPU usage (or some small extra battery) |
| 15:59.56 | Morgreet | And Li-Ion has the additional advantage that it doubles as your campfire ... at least if you buy from Sony. ;-) |
| 16:00.14 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B00CD8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:01.42 | Morgreet | NiMH is everywhere though, as are chargers. So unless weight is a problem, the best solution is probably to build up your own large external powerpack out of NiMH cells. |
| 16:02.49 | aloril | Morgreet: yes, but that means external wire and I would like to avoid that |
| 16:03.04 | aloril | an the other hand it doesn't need to be connected all the time, just enough to charge |
| 16:03.07 | Morgreet | Of course, you'd get detained and interrogated several times a day if you wore a power belt of NiMH cells .......... :-( |
| 16:03.48 | buz | heheheh |
| 16:04.19 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 16:04.54 | loufoque | isn't the Neo1973 big enough? |
| 16:05.12 | loufoque | it's actually bigger than the iphone, that must have a great power consumption |
| 16:05.47 | Morgreet | Nah, aloril wants to fit Battersea power station, and I need somewhere to carry my sandwiches ;-) |
| 16:07.30 | buz | we need nucular batteries |
| 16:08.08 | Morgreet | I'm actually on the lookout for another gadget, with a screen the size of a paperback novel. For some reason, there is no such thing, outside of picture frames and portable DVD players. |
| 16:08.25 | buz | thereis |
| 16:08.29 | buz | its called subnotebook |
| 16:08.42 | dyrne | nucular. i love that pentagon brogue :) |
| 16:09.17 | Morgreet | Subnotebooks would be fine if they had rotateable screens to work as a tablet. Without that though, they don't fit my bill. |
| 16:09.48 | buz | ive seen a 10 tablet |
| 16:09.51 | buz | inch |
| 16:10.35 | Morgreet | Expand the Nokia 770 or 800 by a factor of 2.5 each way, and that would be what I want. |
| 16:11.02 | SuN | A Simpad? |
| 16:11.26 | Morgreet | Or just x2 might be enough, haven't measured it exactly. |
| 16:12.49 | *** join/#openmoko matrx (n=matrix@216.254.112.12) |
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| 16:13.12 | Morgreet | I've never seen a Simpad on sale, but yeah, that sort of thing. I've got a tablet PC (Tosh Tecra M4), but it's entirely the wrong form factor. |
| 16:13.18 | matrx | hey all |
| 16:14.00 | matrx | fwiw, i doubt wearing a powerbelt of nimhs would get you stopped at an airport |
| 16:14.41 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 16:14.44 | matrx | i do a lot of travel with an apc universal external battery wired up in a scott evest with charging cables to all the pockets |
| 16:14.52 | Morgreet | fwiw: you're probably right. They would more likely just shoot you on the spot. |
| 16:15.13 | matrx | and the only place i've ever been stopped was when i entered disneyworld in 2005 |
| 16:16.58 | koen | robtaylor: did you manage to have a look at that pixops patch? |
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| 16:25.14 | Morgreet | Just noticed, unlike the Tecra M4, the Tecra M5 isn't a tablet/covertible. :-( Glad I bought the M4 when it was available. |
| 16:27.11 | Morgreet | http://uk.computers.toshiba-europe.com/cgi-bin/ToshibaCSG/jsp/productPage.do?service=UK&PRODUCT_ID=104798&tab=3 |
| 16:27.33 | Morgreet | Fantastically specc'd product for low price. Hilden could run on it nicely, with the pen-driven touch screen. |
| 16:27.59 | Morgreet | I'll prolly run OM on it at some point, with pen input. |
| 16:28.01 | l3010o | counter |
| 16:28.02 | aloril | 2 days 13:31:58 (2.564 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.564 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.564 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (189) |
| 16:29.06 | Morgreet | Last 24 hour countdown will be funny :-) |
| 16:32.00 | Eblis | hehhe, someone will issue a counter every minute :) |
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| 16:44.01 | bipolar | counter |
| 16:44.01 | aloril | 2 days 13:15:58 (2.553 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.553 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.553 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (190) |
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| 17:01.00 | ROB1963 | i wish you all a nice WE, good night, ugt |
| 17:02.56 | *** join/#openmoko lucas123 (n=Meijer@lucas.demon.nl) |
| 17:03.38 | SpeedEvil | WE? That was yesterday. |
| 17:03.39 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
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| 17:19.32 | Morgreet | At this stage in the counter, its timezone is starting to become relevant. :-) Presumably it's either UTC or Taiwan's? |
| 17:20.33 | Morgreet | Actually, no, it's simply stating time left, not a time of day. Cool! |
| 17:21.29 | Clint | and the time left is a very easy conversion to swatch internet time |
| 17:24.03 | Morgreet | Actually, it does appear to be sync'd to Swatch time, ie. UTC+1 |
| 17:24.24 | Morgreet | Ah no it doesn't. |
| 17:24.30 | Morgreet | counter |
| 17:24.30 | aloril | 2 days 12:35:29 (2.525 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.525 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.525 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (191) |
| 17:24.56 | Clint | midnight GMT-4? |
| 17:25.14 | Clint | er, GMT-6 |
| 17:25.18 | Morgreet | That's what it looked like to me, except it would be midday not midnight |
| 17:25.42 | Clint | midday in taiwan |
| 17:25.56 | Morgreet | But there's a 30-minute discrepancy |
| 17:26.09 | Clint | no, 2pm in taiwan |
| 17:27.01 | Morgreet | LOL, not there isn't a discrepancy, the PC clock is shafted on this box, and NTP broke some time back, lol. |
| 17:27.32 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:28.44 | Morgreet | That's better, I'm back in sync with the planet now ;-) |
| 17:28.48 | Morgreet | counter |
| 17:28.48 | aloril | 2 days 12:31:11 (2.522 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.522 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.522 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (192) |
| 17:35.20 | *** join/#openmoko den-ros (n=den@ppp85-140-68-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 17:40.14 | Morgreet | LOL, half a magazine was inside the house and half outside the letterbox. The half outside was a solid block of ice. |
| 17:42.19 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 17:46.06 | *** part/#openmoko den-ros (n=den@ppp85-140-68-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 17:51.58 | Morgreet | I wonder if OM will spawn multiple distros for Neo ... ones with different desktops, different app sets, different levels of cuteness (very handy for Neos that we give as presents!), etc |
| 17:53.11 | hrw|tv | re |
| 17:53.29 | hrw|tv | Morgreet: rather it will be base system + feeds with misc software |
| 17:54.21 | Morgreet | hrw|tv: yeah, that's the corporate plan mentioned by Sean, but of course the community is free to go further. |
| 17:59.43 | bipolar | Does anyone have any details on the syncml functionality that openmoko is going to have? |
| 18:00.33 | bipolar | like is the work already done? :) |
| 18:01.32 | Morgreet | bipolar: "Because OpenMoKo consists exclusively of open-source software, the Neo1973 will ship with a limited feature set, including a dialer (image at left), unified SyncML-enabled email/text messaging client, phonebook, (image at right), and media player, according to Moss-Pultz." |
| 18:02.09 | Morgreet | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html |
| 18:03.08 | bipolar | hmmm |
| 18:03.37 | bipolar | that links to http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7056478804.html |
| 18:04.02 | bipolar | which talks about the addressbook and calendar also syncing, but it's vauge |
| 18:05.47 | high-rez | countdown |
| 18:05.55 | bipolar | counter |
| 18:05.56 | aloril | 2 days 11:54:04 (2.496 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.496 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.496 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (193) |
| 18:05.58 | high-rez | there we go. |
| 18:06.10 | *** join/#openmoko disguy__147 (i=ariel@gateway/tor/x-5a649c6fb691f339) |
| 18:06.29 | bipolar | Morgreet: I guess I can find out more when the source is realeased :) |
| 18:07.15 | Morgreet | bipolar: well I'd guess that Sean's statement referred to the public release date anyway, ie. in September. |
| 18:07.37 | bipolar | ahh |
| 18:08.04 | Morgreet | There's a lot of work already being done in related areas though, like EDS and dbus. |
| 18:08.28 | Morgreet | For all I know, it might all be working. We're all speculating :P |
| 18:09.20 | bipolar | Here at work we us Citadel for our email/groupware, and I have Funimbol set up to sync palms with it via syncml. |
| 18:09.36 | bipolar | it's not finished yet, but it's really close. |
| 18:09.45 | hrw|gone | cu |
| 18:10.32 | bipolar | hrw|gone: later |
| 18:15.31 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@80-192-23-26.stb.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 18:18.13 | Morgreet | What's the difference between a "feature phone" and a "smartphone"? |
| 18:18.21 | jannu | price |
| 18:18.35 | jannu | and with nokia devices the os |
| 18:19.10 | jannu | nokia feature phones run nokia's internal os and you can't install any apps on them |
| 18:19.21 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 18:19.29 | jannu | apart from java sh.. i mean software |
| 18:19.45 | Morgreet | That's the definition of "smartphone"? The ability to load external apps? |
| 18:19.45 | jannu | nokia smartphones run symbian and series60 |
| 18:20.42 | jannu | the (undelivered) promise of extensibility i think |
| 18:21.27 | jannu | i think samsung and motorola call some of their models smartphones as well |
| 18:21.41 | Morgreet | Oh well, we're certainly about to see it delivered .... bigtime :-) |
| 18:21.43 | jannu | even though there's no 3rd party software for them |
| 18:22.36 | jannu | not that the application catalog on series60 is much better |
| 18:22.47 | Morgreet | Neo may not be leading edge on h/w, but it's sure as hell going to be "smart". |
| 18:23.54 | jannu | and imho being leading edge on hardware isn't really that important to begin with |
| 18:24.46 | jannu | when we have a software and services ecosystem that actually can fully take advantage on things like 3g, then you might want to be on leading edge |
| 18:25.32 | jannu | right now people buy the leading edge hardware mainly as a show-off |
| 18:25.53 | jannu | not as something that actually makes the device more useful |
| 18:25.56 | Morgreet | That's true enough. And anyway, we can compensate somewhat for lack of the latest and greatest by using external h/w. Not as convenient, but we're techs, we can cope. |
| 18:26.31 | jannu | techs can cope with almost anything |
| 18:26.54 | jannu | the hard problem imho is how we can get this platform into the mainstream |
| 18:27.29 | Morgreet | jannu: we don't yet know if that's an issue or not. FIC is very ambivalent about it. |
| 18:27.30 | jannu | and make it all usable for normal people. in a way that it actually makes their lives easier |
| 18:28.24 | SpeedEvil | 3G would be a lot more useful with just a little larger CPU. |
| 18:28.43 | koen | 10x10cm? |
| 18:28.48 | koen | would that be a big enough cpu? |
| 18:28.49 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 18:29.02 | jannu | Morgreet: well imho regardless of the target segment for the neo1973, i'd say it's really important to get the openmoko platform into mainstream phones |
| 18:29.20 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 18:29.40 | jannu | Morgreet: because only then the platform will start attracting bigger developer masses |
| 18:29.55 | jannu | Morgreet: and that's when everyone benefits. big time |
| 18:30.28 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: a more powerful CPU would probably be the single most important change, methinks, simply because this phone will succeed if its software succeeds ... and that needs power. FOSS is better at adding features than reducing resource footprint. |
| 18:30.37 | jannu | SpeedEvil: the problem with 3g isn't just processing power. it's the lack of actually useful services |
| 18:30.40 | SpeedEvil | Y&eah. |
| 18:30.58 | Morgreet | CPU and memory |
| 18:31.08 | jannu | SpeedEvil: after all, 3g is just bandwidth |
| 18:31.12 | SpeedEvil | Memory, well... IMO, 128M is quite adequate. |
| 18:31.18 | jannu | nothing more, nothing less |
| 18:31.21 | SpeedEvil | True, but for stuff like video decompression. |
| 18:31.26 | SpeedEvil | And compression in real time. |
| 18:31.28 | koen | jannu: less latency |
| 18:32.47 | jannu | koen: yes. usually. unless there's lots of higher priority traffic (i.e. carrier controlled stuff) |
| 18:33.04 | Morgreet | jannu: I don't think it needs to encourage larger developer masses. The entire principle of OM and OE is very close to "all FOSS software works" (within reason). There are already hundreds of thousands of developers working on OM ... indirectly. ;-)) |
| 18:33.25 | SpeedEvil | Very little FOSS stuff works well. |
| 18:33.35 | SpeedEvil | Most of it is geared to the desktop. |
| 18:33.35 | jannu | Morgreet: yep. but you've got the same problem there as with mobile internet |
| 18:33.46 | SpeedEvil | A 2.8" screen at arms length is very, very different. |
| 18:33.58 | jannu | Morgreet: the UIs designed for desktop use will not work on a phone |
| 18:34.18 | SpeedEvil | They work if you hold the phone 20cm away from your eyes, and use a pointer. |
| 18:34.20 | SpeedEvil | But... |
| 18:34.23 | jannu | Morgreet: and even on the desktop side the UIs aren't that great |
| 18:34.47 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: true. But FOSS peeps aren't generally good at optimizing, because they tend to develop for desktops. If jannu had said "attract more optimizers", I'd have agreed ;-) |
| 18:35.16 | *** join/#openmoko lucas123 (n=Meijer@lucas.demon.nl) |
| 18:35.29 | jannu | but for backend stuff the existing stuff (like dbus, eds, telepathy) will do wonders |
| 18:36.07 | SpeedEvil | We could really do with prizes to reduce the amount of memory stuff uses. For example a copy of firefox, with a specified list of URLs clicked - say 1000 or so. Now, you get a dollar for every K you can take that down. |
| 18:36.26 | jannu | Morgreet: i wouldn't necessarily agree with that |
| 18:36.29 | Morgreet | jannu: I bet it's judged to be sluggish, unless a huge amount of filing and honing is done. |
| 18:37.12 | jannu | Morgreet: the biggest bloatware i've seen has always been commercial |
| 18:37.12 | *** join/#openmoko nab (i=[U2FsdGV@hera.kernel.org) |
| 18:37.13 | Morgreet | jannu: that's true :P |
| 18:37.25 | nab | Hello |
| 18:37.47 | nab | Who should I speak with about the 2/11 deadline for development kits on the Neo1976..? |
| 18:37.58 | SpeedEvil | nobody. |
| 18:38.07 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 18:38.07 | SpeedEvil | Wait till preorder is announced, and buy one. |
| 18:38.09 | cjb | nab: What's your question? |
| 18:38.22 | SpeedEvil | oops. |
| 18:38.24 | SpeedEvil | My bad. |
| 18:38.24 | jannu | of course the difference here is that commercial phone software has been developed for phones from the get go |
| 18:38.26 | Morgreet | It's one of the things I hate most, commercial bloatware. It's also why I give projects like OpenOffice a thumbs down. I like small independent and highly specific apps, not integrated suites. |
| 18:38.43 | nab | cjb: http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/ISCSI/GSM |
| 18:38.58 | nab | I just need the phone and a method to access the bandband processer with kernel-level sockets. |
| 18:38.59 | nab | :P |
| 18:39.23 | nab | Actually, $$ is not a concern, I just want to get my hands on one as soon as possible. |
| 18:39.30 | jannu | Morgreet: I still can't understand why the openoffice guys can't make a library out of the MS office file format converters |
| 18:39.40 | cjb | nab: Where are you based, out of interest? |
| 18:39.48 | nab | cjb: Bay Area, CA. |
| 18:40.02 | Morgreet | nab: you can't. There is only a modem connection to the GSM module. If I understood what you asked. |
| 18:40.10 | cjb | nab: There were only fifty or so of the development phones, so most people are waiting another month for the release. |
| 18:40.10 | Morgreet | UART |
| 18:40.13 | nab | cjb: The project will be undertaken with one of the quad bandband flat-rate data providers in these parts. |
| 18:40.29 | nab | cjb: Ahh, I see. |
| 18:40.34 | cjb | nab: The GSM module is proprietary, and communicated with via AT commands. |
| 18:40.38 | koen | jannu: abiword can do conversion from CMDLINE |
| 18:40.40 | cjb | (or something like that.) |
| 18:40.54 | nab | How are userspace applications that use sockets communicate with the UART..? |
| 18:40.56 | so_solid_moo | the openoffice guys are doing a converter toolkit |
| 18:41.10 | SpeedEvil | nab: it looks like a serial port. |
| 18:41.21 | nab | SpeedEvil: Yes, a UART.. |
| 18:41.21 | SpeedEvil | You do serial port stuff to it, and send it AT commands. |
| 18:41.35 | jannu | koen: does it use the oo code to do it, or another implementation? |
| 18:41.45 | koen | it uses abiword code |
| 18:41.46 | nab | My question is how are other applications that communicate with a endpoint using TCP communicating with the bandband processor. |
| 18:41.57 | koen | so it doesn't require 6GB ram and a 100GHz cpu |
| 18:41.59 | SpeedEvil | what do you mean by bandband? |
| 18:42.08 | nab | er, baseband. |
| 18:42.16 | jannu | koen: so i'm guessing the compatibility isn't quite as good? |
| 18:42.30 | nab | SpeedEvil: The GSM processor that is communicating via a serial interface with the application processor. |
| 18:42.35 | koen | I continue to be unimpressed with OOo |
| 18:42.41 | koen | while abiword impresses me |
| 18:42.42 | SpeedEvil | Right - google GPRS. |
| 18:42.50 | koen | both used libwv iirc |
| 18:43.08 | jannu | koen: me too. but the ms office compatibility is a must for me |
| 18:43.14 | nab | SpeedEvil: huh? |
| 18:43.16 | SpeedEvil | That's the only probably supported way of doing IP over the air through the mobile. |
| 18:43.20 | nab | I know what the General Packet Radio Service is. |
| 18:43.22 | jannu | koen: libwv is for wordperfect |
| 18:43.24 | buz | jajanyou want oo then |
| 18:43.31 | buz | sorry, jannu |
| 18:43.35 | SpeedEvil | It'll appear something like a PPP interface I imagine. |
| 18:43.55 | jannu | buz: i think want is the wrong word |
| 18:44.04 | nab | SpeedEvil: I am not asking about the wire protocol, I am asking about the API that applications will be using. |
| 18:44.09 | buz | need/whatever |
| 18:44.12 | jannu | buz: being forced to use is a bit closer |
| 18:44.22 | SpeedEvil | It'll look like any other network interface. |
| 18:44.24 | Morgreet | nab: all the ETSI GSM TS 07.07 commands are available, via the AT comamnd set |
| 18:44.25 | nab | SpeedEvil: That is the answer I am looking for. |
| 18:44.25 | koen | nab: probably dbus or linking against libgsmd |
| 18:44.32 | nab | koen: Yikes |
| 18:44.51 | nab | koen: I am dealing with a kernel module here that uses sock_[send,recv]msg().. |
| 18:44.59 | rep_ | nab: there will be source available at 2/11 for all developers - there will be your answer i think |
| 18:44.59 | koen | the points of libgsmd is to hide the AT layer |
| 18:45.19 | rep_ | s/st/on/ |
| 18:45.21 | nab | koen: Hmmmm |
| 18:45.22 | rep_ | err |
| 18:45.47 | jannu | so_solid_moo: you wouldn't have a link or other info on that toolkit? |
| 18:45.52 | koen | nab: so your application works on every phone with libgsmd |
| 18:45.57 | nab | koen: Not quite |
| 18:46.00 | nab | koen: http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Core-iscsi_Interopt |
| 18:46.05 | so_solid_moo | jannu: http://odftoolkit.openoffice.org/ |
| 18:46.19 | nab | The project is a kernel module that implements the initiator side of RFC-3720. |
| 18:46.27 | koen | nab: how's that related to AT commands? |
| 18:46.34 | nab | koen: Its not. |
| 18:46.34 | koen | AT SCSI? |
| 18:47.14 | koen | iirc gprs shows itself as a ppp interface |
| 18:47.17 | jannu | so_solid_moo: wow. hopefuly that'll take off so I can finally get ms office stuff working in koffice |
| 18:47.17 | nab | The problem is that if userspace applications link against a userspace library to hide the UART communication, what are kernel-level applications that use IP supposed to do..? :P |
| 18:47.32 | koen | but with some neat logic to stop it going through the kernel 2 or 3 times |
| 18:47.46 | koen | why do kernel modules want to use the uart? |
| 18:47.53 | Morgreet | nab: I don't get it. You quoted us RFC-3720, and you say it's not relevant? |
| 18:48.00 | koen | especially if they don't care about AT commands |
| 18:48.04 | nab | nono.. |
| 18:48.05 | buz | jannu: with current state of koffice, i'd rather see them get the thing stable first |
| 18:48.25 | nab | Ok, an iSCSI Initiator is a stack that accepts SCSI CDBs and data from the Host OS'es SCSI subsystem. |
| 18:48.42 | nab | Encodes the SCSI data into iSCSI packets and sends it off to it's target endpoint. |
| 18:48.51 | jannu | buz: that wouldn't hurt either |
| 18:49.12 | jannu | buz: although kword hasn't crashed on me for months now |
| 18:49.24 | buz | and then maybe, just maybe, make it open ODT files somewhat sanely |
| 18:49.28 | nab | And due to the fact that the SCSI CDBs and data are coming down from a subsystem that resides in the kernel, all of the existing implementations are in kernel space, or at least all the ones that I have seen in my 6 years of doing iSCSI. |
| 18:50.13 | nab | So, if I understand correctly, and the only method that currently exists for applications to communication with the serial UART that is connected to the GPRS module is via a userspace library, I have a problem. |
| 18:50.27 | koen | nab: you don't understand |
| 18:50.35 | buz | you want to iscsi over gprs? |
| 18:50.39 | koen | or at least are ignoring most of the stuff we are saying |
| 18:50.42 | nab | buz: That is what I am doing. |
| 18:50.46 | koen | IT SHOWS UP AS A PPP INTERFACE |
| 18:50.52 | buz | omfg |
| 18:50.57 | nab | koen: I understand that piece. |
| 18:51.05 | koen | ok |
| 18:51.14 | buz | but WHY? |
| 18:51.15 | koen | then why are you still talking about uarts? |
| 18:51.54 | nab | buz: This is what I have been doing for a number of years. :P |
| 18:52.04 | nab | Putting iSCSI in places that people say it cannot be put. :P |
| 18:52.16 | SuN | Interesting hobby ;) |
| 18:52.22 | buz | so next thing is iSCSI over pigeons i imagine |
| 18:52.27 | koen | it's like we are saying "ethernet interface" and you keep raving about "cat5 access" |
| 18:52.50 | nab | koen: Where I am getting confused is the userspace library that hides things.. |
| 18:53.02 | buz | PPP is never hidden by anything |
| 18:53.17 | buz | only abstracted further |
| 18:53.35 | nab | koen: So when I hear that linking against a userspace library to get socket-level access to the GSM module, I start to think that kernel-level socket access will require additional work. |
| 18:53.49 | koen | buz: rerouted would be a better description for what harald has created |
| 18:54.02 | SpeedEvil | ifconfig gprs0 |
| 18:54.02 | nab | So let me see if I got this right.. |
| 18:54.08 | SpeedEvil | route add gprs0 |
| 18:54.10 | SpeedEvil | job done |
| 18:54.11 | koen | nab: "socket level access to the gsm module" doesn't exist |
| 18:54.19 | Morgreet | There's nothing inherently wrong with iSCSI over a mobile phone, in fact it's nice lateral thinking as long as the application is some kind of odd slow one. But I don't actually see the problem. It's just IP. |
| 18:54.23 | koen | nab: it's like "socket level access to cat5" |
| 18:54.29 | buz | that's gotta be the by far weirdest (and that's saying something) i've read in this channel so far |
| 18:54.37 | nab | koen: ..? |
| 18:54.51 | nab | Ok, lets try this again. |
| 18:54.58 | koen | nab: "ppp interface" is all the information you need for your iscsi toy |
| 18:55.18 | buz | isnt iSCSI running on top of IP annnyhway? |
| 18:55.18 | nab | koen: So all outgoing packets will be rounted to said interface, yes? |
| 18:55.26 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 18:55.28 | nab | buz: Most definately. |
| 18:55.37 | koen | all gprs traffic flows through the ppp interface |
| 18:55.37 | buz | then why do you even care how the interface is implemented |
| 18:55.37 | Morgreet | I don't think nab means what he's saying. Or at least, doesn't really expect it to work that way. Doing that stuff in kernel in a mobile phone would be daft. |
| 18:55.45 | buz | it will talk IP for like totally sure |
| 18:56.34 | nab | Morgreet: I am getting alot of different and conflicting answers right now. |
| 18:56.37 | nab | :P |
| 18:56.50 | SpeedEvil | Ignore totally the phone hardware. |
| 18:56.54 | SpeedEvil | It does not matter to you. |
| 18:56.57 | buz | think of it as linux |
| 18:56.59 | SpeedEvil | You have an interface. |
| 18:57.01 | nab | And I am too excited to finally move iSCSI packets to wait until monday to look for myself. |
| 18:57.11 | Morgreet | And forget kernel modules too :-z0 |
| 18:57.18 | SpeedEvil | It looks like an ethernet, ppp, or ... interface. |
| 18:57.24 | nab | Yes, understood. |
| 18:57.27 | SpeedEvil | When it's up, you can route tcp/ip packets over it. |
| 18:57.31 | nab | Of course. |
| 18:58.20 | SpeedEvil | When it's down, you can bring it up if in range of a cell, for a fee. |
| 18:58.28 | koen | nab: for making phonecalls, libgsmd abstracts a lot away |
| 18:58.29 | Morgreet | Hehehe |
| 18:58.42 | koen | nab: you're not interested in phonecalls, but in packet data |
| 18:58.44 | buz | telcos will just love iscsi over gprs |
| 18:58.49 | nab | koen: Ok, libgsmd is where I was getting confused. |
| 18:59.04 | nab | buz: Bringing it terabytes over a flatrate provider. :P |
| 18:59.04 | koen | that's for dialer apps to talk to |
| 18:59.11 | nab | koen: Ok, thank you. |
| 18:59.14 | koen | or apps that wants to read contacts from SIM |
| 18:59.18 | buz | you must have a lot of time if you talk about TB |
| 18:59.18 | nab | The confusion has now gone away. |
| 18:59.36 | nab | buz: Not really, iSCSI is what I have been doing for a living for along time now. |
| 18:59.59 | nab | buz: But usually it involves breaking records for speed. |
| 19:00.10 | buz | at like 5kb/s a TB would mean a looooong time |
| 19:00.20 | nab | So now the linux-iscsi.org team wants to break records for squeezing TBs into a mobile. :P |
| 19:00.41 | buz | you want one with HSDPA then |
| 19:00.50 | nab | buz: The device I personally want is a access to my media library from my PS3. |
| 19:00.51 | nab | :P |
| 19:01.08 | nab | well, audio library actually. |
| 19:01.26 | nab | And 5k-10k on GSM with an intelligent player is just enough for audio. |
| 19:01.27 | cjb | nab: does the openmoko give you something more useful than you'd get from, say, a Nokia 770 paired with a 3G phone, then? |
| 19:01.40 | cjb | nab: I guess I don't see why you think the openmoko is special for this. |
| 19:01.52 | nab | cjb: Already did that |
| 19:01.52 | Morgreet | It doesn't have to be used for transporting terabytes though. It's just SCSI after all, so conceptually you could grab a photo from your scanner with it. |
| 19:01.53 | nab | http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Core-iSCSI/Nokia_770 |
| 19:02.02 | nab | cjb: Plus it means I have to have two devices in my pocket |
| 19:02.05 | nab | I want one device. |
| 19:02.23 | cjb | nab: Okay, just checking. |
| 19:02.35 | SpeedEvil | The neo will be several dozen times slower than a 3G capable phone. |
| 19:02.40 | nab | cjb: I have already spent some time hacking on a Rokr E2, but an open stack is what would make the team's life much easier. |
| 19:03.01 | nab | SpeedEvil: iSCSI has already maxed out 802.11b bandwith on a NintendoDS> |
| 19:03.07 | nab | WIth single digit CPU load. |
| 19:03.16 | SpeedEvil | Well, yes. |
| 19:03.24 | nab | The SoC that the neo uses will be more than enough power to max out GPRS bandwith. |
| 19:03.24 | SpeedEvil | It's quite irrelevant though. |
| 19:03.39 | nab | For iSCSI/GSM it is quit relivant. |
| 19:03.41 | SpeedEvil | Maxing out GPRS can almost be done by a very fast typist. |
| 19:04.09 | nab | SpeedEvil: You would be amazed of the misconceptions about iSCSI that I have had to disspell over the years. |
| 19:04.15 | buz | 10 monkeys with a typewriter could do it |
| 19:04.20 | nab | My apologies if I tried to dispell one by mistake. |
| 19:04.55 | buz | my congratulations to you, for the weirdest project in a long time |
| 19:04.58 | SpeedEvil | iScsi is just SCSI - over a 5K link, why. |
| 19:05.13 | buz | heck original scsi had what like 10mb/s? |
| 19:05.24 | Morgreet | nab: it could be very cool, given sensible targets. But kernel modules would be a really bad idea. |
| 19:05.56 | nab | Morgreet: On the initiator side, since the initiator stack has to be speaking with the OS'es SCSI subsystem, there is not much choice. |
| 19:07.17 | nab | Also, I think alot of the questions that you folks may have on the transport side are answered iSCSI/GSM wiki entry. |
| 19:07.38 | nab | But I am more than happy to answer and other questions about the how and why. |
| 19:08.13 | nab | The why is obvious. |
| 19:08.30 | nab | I have a bunch of music sitting on my playstation3 that is acting as an iSCSI target. |
| 19:08.44 | nab | I want to be able to access my music wherever I go on my mobile |
| 19:09.03 | nab | Here in sunny CA, there are flat-rate data providers. |
| 19:09.25 | SpeedEvil | In general, you really don't want to do that. |
| 19:09.27 | SpeedEvil | You'll be reading filesystem metadata over GPRS. |
| 19:09.30 | SpeedEvil | That's insane. |
| 19:10.00 | nab | SpeedEvil: For daily use the filesystems are mounted R/O to save on that particular overhead. |
| 19:10.38 | SpeedEvil | And you do know that it'll take 10-20 minutes to download your typical 3 minute MP3? |
| 19:10.52 | nab | SpeedEvil: Depends on your provider. :P |
| 19:10.55 | *** join/#openmoko mitcheloc (n=mitchelo@titaniumsoft.net) |
| 19:11.01 | buz | nab: no it doesnt |
| 19:11.08 | SpeedEvil | This is not a 3G phone, it's GPRS. |
| 19:11.10 | nab | ~10k is what I am looking for. |
| 19:11.12 | apt | nab: okay |
| 19:11.28 | buz | it wont do 10k |
| 19:11.31 | nab | And here in the Bay that is about what we see. |
| 19:11.41 | buz | that depends on the phone |
| 19:12.30 | nab | buz: And the Neo is limited to 5k..? |
| 19:12.48 | buz | as a rule of thumb 5k doesnt sound so bad |
| 19:13.47 | nab | Ok, obviously one of the research items for this project has been to determine what the bandwith requirements will be to actually be functional. |
| 19:14.08 | Morgreet | I don't think that the problem here is iSCSI, but using iSCSI for access to storage, which is rather badly mismatched to GPRS. But if you can map SCSI commands at the far end to something else with some lateral thinking, it could be interesting. |
| 19:14.25 | nab | So after researching what the various providers in my area claim, against what the actual customers see, the provider that I chose for the project on a provider sold phone was ~10k. |
| 19:14.35 | nab | So I am hearing now that with another quad-band GSM phone I will not see that..? |
| 19:15.19 | nab | Against, please understand that I am new to developing on mobile devices. :-) |
| 19:15.49 | nab | Morgreet: Actually, iSCSI is the best protocol for moving storage packets over a link that expects to drop/restart many many times. |
| 19:16.25 | nab | Morgreet: The biggest advantage of iSCSI is the fact that it supports multiple communication paths within the nexus, as well as true active-active recovery when communication paths go away. |
| 19:16.36 | nab | (My team was the first to implement this back in 2003) |
| 19:16.37 | nab | :P |
| 19:17.16 | nab | You can read more about that probject here btw: http://commsdesign.com/printableArticle/?articleID=172300547 |
| 19:17.21 | nab | For those who are interested. :_) |
| 19:18.08 | nab | Morgreet: Compared with any other NAS/SAN transport, iSCSI is best suited for moving packets over a slow radio link. |
| 19:18.43 | nab | Actually, iSCSI has already moved packets over an even slower link. |
| 19:19.13 | nab | http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/ISCSI/CDMA |
| 19:20.28 | nab | Researchers at the University of Seoul beat the linux-iscsi.org team on CDMA (due to lack of hardware), but I think that Linux/iSCSI's iSCSI/GSM will be the first useable software package. |
| 19:20.48 | nab | But again as mentioned above, this all goes back to the pipe. |
| 19:20.51 | nab | brb |
| 19:22.26 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI_ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 19:28.43 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 19:29.15 | Morgreet | I just had a very funny image of doing a sort of multicast p2p over iSCSI by treating a bunch of peers as a RAID array ...... |
| 19:30.26 | SpeedEvil | Download cooperation - if in BT range, and the user next to you has a cheaper GPRS rate, buy some transfer. |
| 19:30.30 | buz | mhh run it over satelite ;) |
| 19:30.56 | Morgreet | SpeedEvil: hahaha, nice. And evil :P |
| 19:31.34 | Morgreet | Hmmm, takes us into mesh territory. |
| 19:32.54 | buz | or dont buy it |
| 19:33.02 | buz | claim to just share it and sharing should be free after all |
| 19:33.33 | aloril2 | Morgreet: press release happened few minutes after 23:59:59 CST, thus counter also counts to that time and according to mickeyl its more likely right with that than with 00:00:00 UTC |
| 19:34.21 | nab | Morgreet: Interesting |
| 19:34.35 | nab | That would definately be tough with the limited resources on the mobile though.. |
| 19:34.57 | nab | Typically when it comes to a very low-powered device, putting as much recovery and multipath logic into the transport as possible is the way to go. |
| 19:35.29 | nab | It saves on administrative overhead of having to automate or yikes, setup, outernexus multipath software that is dependent upon the OS running on the applications processor. |
| 19:35.54 | nab | The nice thing about iSCSI is that it has the internexus multipathing as a optional feature in the standard. |
| 19:36.43 | nab | So when communication paths that may be running over GSM + 802.11b fail, the active paths retry unacknowledged packets, and explictly reassign acknowledged onces. |
| 19:36.46 | nab | s/onces/ones |
| 19:37.22 | nab | One of the pieces that the linux-iscsi.org team has been working on is making all of this happen transparently so the user. |
| 19:38.04 | nab | ie: there is always be multiple connection login attempts fired off into the background, once one successed the nexus is established with a single communication path, say over GSM. |
| 19:40.07 | nab | Once the device comes within access of an 802.11 hotspot, depending upon if the device supports running GSM/802.11 at the same time, a second communication path is opened to the target node endpoint over 802.11. |
| 19:40.12 | nab | Without having to stop or pause the existing nexus. |
| 19:40.45 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@204.11.230.174.static.etheric.net) |
| 19:40.58 | nab | Once the device leaves 802.11 range, the communication paths fails, and the GSM communication path completes it's outstanding failed commands transparently to the SCSI subsystem (and applications) above. |
| 19:41.40 | nab | This is defined as ErrorRecoveryLevel=2 or Connection Recovery within the RFC, and is a *KEY* requirement to making iSCSI/GSM useable on a day-to-day basis. |
| 19:42.26 | nab | This is the primary reason why things like NFS and SAMBA are not practical weak radio link. |
| 19:43.18 | Morgreet | From what you say, the iSCSI model sounds like it would be the storage method of preference for meshes. |
| 19:44.24 | nab | Morgreet: I can't say I have put alot of thought into that setup, but the standard has some features that make it very flexable from that standpoint. :-) |
| 19:45.55 | nab | Ok, wew. |
| 19:46.07 | nab | So I will be heading up the transport side of iSCSI/GSM. |
| 19:46.15 | Morgreet | I hope the work isn't being tied to wifi+GSM. It's relevant to absolutely paths at all. |
| 19:46.46 | Morgreet | any* paths |
| 19:46.46 | nab | There are also two UI projects underway on the Nokia770 for creating a adminstirative UI for an iSCSI initiator. |
| 19:46.53 | nab | Morgreet: This is all based on IP, so no. :-) |
| 19:47.06 | nab | Also, the project will be supporting both iSCSI/TCP and iSCSI/SCTP |
| 19:47.15 | nab | Which are currently in stable release. |
| 19:48.00 | aloril2 | (still need to catch up): nab: about 50 developers were selected some time ago, but it might still be possible to get on list: see http://www.openmoko.com ; however it might not be possible to get into that list anymore, I don't know which is the case |
| 19:48.21 | nab | There is one ncurses based UI, and another GTK based interface that fits into the Hildon API for Maemo. |
| 19:48.33 | nab | aloril2: Ah, thank you for the info! |
| 19:48.38 | Morgreet | nab: that's what got you off on the wrong foot here. Instead of talking about IP, you started talking about GSM ;-) |
| 19:48.46 | *** join/#openmoko thresh (n=popa3d@unaffiliated/thresh) |
| 19:48.50 | nab | Morgreet: :P |
| 19:49.16 | morricone | counter |
| 19:49.16 | aloril | 2 days 10:10:43 (2.424 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.424 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.424 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (194) |
| 19:49.55 | nab | Morgreet: So with the Maemo GTK based UI, I see alot of symmetry between the GUI project for the 770 and a UI for OpenMoko. |
| 19:50.16 | *** join/#openmoko thresh_ (n=popa3d@kp-tl.telios.ru) |
| 19:50.36 | Morgreet | nab: undoubtedly. We're just more open, in the sense of having fewer closed modules, but the base is the same. |
| 19:51.21 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178126145.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
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| 19:53.59 | Morgreet | And our UI is pure Gtk, with just some new widgets for look'n'feel purposes. |
| 19:54.35 | nab | Both of the UI pieces are still in the early phases, so I just want to make sure that the developers are aware of what is going on with OpenMoko. |
| 19:54.36 | nab | :-) |
| 19:54.37 | Morgreet | But of course pretty much anything else will run too, given a spot of hacking. |
| 19:55.16 | nab | Morgreet: I will be doing a developer release for the stack and userspace tools bits basically within a few days of getting my hands on the device. |
| 19:55.36 | Morgreet | Well even we're not sure .... but it will all become stunningly clear in 2.4 days' time ;-)))) |
| 19:55.59 | nab | :P |
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| 20:00.30 | nab | Morgreet: I am very excited to finally have a vehicle to pull off a project like iSCSI/GSM. :-) |
| 20:00.59 | koen | transparant migration from gprs to usbnet would be neat |
| 20:01.01 | nab | But really, I just want to have my GB of music in my pocket on my own storage. |
| 20:01.13 | woglinde | koen *g* |
| 20:01.45 | woglinde | damnit that the specter micro-sd-wlan card didnt hit the market yet |
| 20:01.54 | buz | woglinde: it wont work in neo anyhow |
| 20:01.57 | buz | doesnt fit |
| 20:02.06 | buz | and below the battery, reception would be awful |
| 20:02.15 | Morgreet | Is that a GB of storage in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me? ;-) |
| 20:02.31 | woglinde | buz hm on the website stands micro-sd slot |
| 20:02.34 | buz | i dont think the girl would be happy upon seeing the size of 1G in these days |
| 20:02.36 | nab | Morgreet: Also, having the 2nd generation phone from FIC with 802.11b will be great too. |
| 20:02.39 | buz | woglinde: look at the size of it |
| 20:03.52 | buz | it's NOT standard microsd |
| 20:03.52 | buz | has overlength |
| 20:03.52 | Morgreet | buz: hehe |
| 20:03.52 | woglinde | buz hm we will see next week |
| 20:03.52 | woglinde | hm |
| 20:03.52 | nab | I have not been able to get my hands on a GSM/802.11 Linux phone yet. |
| 20:03.52 | buz | woglinde: i mean the spectec thing |
| 20:03.53 | buz | nab: i'm SOOO waiting for that one too |
| 20:03.53 | buz | there's the GN1 |
| 20:03.53 | buz | but that's a bad joke |
| 20:04.46 | nab | Or rather, a GSM/802.11 Linux phone that you are only limited by your imagination, and not software licensing. ;P |
| 20:05.15 | Morgreet | nab: doesn't iSCSI use TCP? Don't all the crappy default socket timeout options give you a headache for your work? Or do you turn all timeouts off to make TCP non-breaking? |
| 20:06.13 | Morgreet | Wifi too, but even more so on GPRS. |
| 20:06.17 | nab | Morgreet: iSCSI is not strictly tied to TCP, although there where quite a few TCP considerations put into the final RFC to deal with some of the pieces that TCP lacks, mainly the lack of framing. |
| 20:07.07 | nab | Morgreet: Also, TCP_NODELAY is enabled for all iSCSI traffic. |
| 20:08.01 | nab | The initial research that will be published will also contain iSCSI/SCTP numbers as well. |
| 20:08.25 | nab | Although I don't personally know of any research of using SCTP over slow links. |
| 20:08.27 | nab | So we will have to see. |
| 20:08.29 | Morgreet | So you use the O/S's default socket options, and when TCP breaks because of RF things, you just reconnect, or what? |
| 20:09.00 | nab | The RFC defines a couple of different options. |
| 20:09.22 | nab | Keep in mind that in the iSCSI Session (aka the nexus) between an initiator and target, you can have multiple TCP communication paths, or iSCSI connections |
| 20:09.49 | nab | In ERL != 2, when one iSCSI connection fails, lets say due to a TCP reset, all of the other connections have to be shutdown and restarted. |
| 20:10.32 | nab | In ERL == 2, when one iSCSI connection fails, the other communication path can retry and/or reassign the outstanding commands from the failed connection. |
| 20:10.41 | nab | Morgreet: So short answer, yes, it just reconnects |
| 20:11.10 | nab | Long answer, depending on the implementation, it will have to restart all paths, or continue moving cdbs and data. |
| 20:11.29 | Morgreet | Well I sure hope TCP timeout isn't directly mapped to nexus failure, or you'll have more reconnection traffic than data traffic. |
| 20:11.46 | nab | The overhead for a restart is minimal, but the problem arises when you are dealing with multiple communication paths across multiple subnets. |
| 20:12.31 | nab | The recovery logic when all of the communication paths are forced to fail is pretty simple because the stack won't be able to determine which of the network portals (the IP endpoints) are still up. |
| 20:12.50 | *** join/#openmoko MacNorth (n=daijobu@70-59-58-234.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 20:12.51 | nab | Morgreet: I fully expect there to be iSCSI and TCP tuning required. |
| 20:12.53 | nab | :-) |
| 20:13.34 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@ACB18A70.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:13.58 | Morgreet | nab: hmmm, well it not "tuning" in the conventional sense. RF isn't so much about speed as about making sense out of yoyoing connections. |
| 20:14.09 | nab | My group had done lots of iSCSI WAN testing, espically with folks in europe and the middle east, so I expect most of the issues to have already been encountered in one from or another. |
| 20:14.31 | nab | Morgreet: Agreed. |
| 20:15.44 | nab | The transport must be able to handle not only dropped connections, but recovery scenarios that involve things like application layer CRC failures, out of order acknowledgements, just to name a few. |
| 20:16.05 | Morgreet | I'm looking forward to seeing what you can get working. It's certainly not the conventional use of iSCSI, but novelty is good. |
| 20:16.32 | nab | Luckly, the initiator stack that will be used has been stable early 2005 with the WIFI and WAN scenarios, so I am confident that no additional coding will be required. |
| 20:16.45 | nab | Morgreet: I have been hearing that for years. :P |
| 20:16.55 | Morgreet | nab: hehe |
| 20:17.06 | nab | http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Playstation2/iSCSI |
| 20:17.07 | nab | :p |
| 20:17.42 | nab | I always figure the more that you hear that something cannot be done, or that it is unreasonable or unpracticle, the more you know you are on the right track. :P |
| 20:17.44 | Morgreet | The FSM for state tracking in a multipathed nexus over > 1 RF links must be mind boggling. |
| 20:18.01 | nab | Morgreet: Not really |
| 20:18.08 | woglinde | ps2 with iscsi? wtf? |
| 20:18.09 | nab | Since the link is slow, there are not a whole lot of outstanding CDbs. |
| 20:18.15 | nab | http://www.linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Playstation3/iSCSI |
| 20:18.16 | nab | :P |
| 20:18.24 | nab | Yes, the linux-iscsi.org has done alot over the years. :P |
| 20:18.27 | Morgreet | woglinde: welcome to a parallel universe :-) |
| 20:18.49 | cbpage | i wish they made a few more linux/ps2 disks :P |
| 20:18.51 | nab | Morgreet: The more outstanding CDBs on the failed connection, the more complex it gets. |
| 20:19.11 | nab | Morgreet: But if we are talking about a GSM link, I imagine we will only have 1 outstanding CDB per communication at a time. |
| 20:19.12 | nab | If even that. |
| 20:19.55 | nab | Minus the NOPs that are sent periodiaclly to help determine communication path failures as early as possible. |
| 20:20.53 | nab | Morgreet: Luckly RFC-3720 defines the statemachine for the scenario you mentioned, which definately helps alot toward talking interoptable implementations. |
| 20:22.31 | aloril2 | wifi? |
| 20:22.32 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess |
| 20:23.35 | woglinde | aloril hm thats nen option |
| 20:23.59 | buz | this post by sean about hardware change confuses me |
| 20:24.12 | buz | not wanting to commit not to add entirely new subsystems is weird |
| 20:26.02 | buz | because if Phase2 neo gets wifi, i'd wait |
| 20:28.10 | Morgreet | Are you saying that the wifi driver situation is changing rapidly because of OLPC? |
| 20:28.33 | woglinde | morgeet I dont think so |
| 20:29.30 | buz | that nexperia reference design looks very interestin |
| 20:30.04 | buz | the s3c2410 is arm926 too, right? |
| 20:30.34 | woglinde | buz hm we have to look at samsungs website |
| 20:30.40 | buz | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8417344656.html |
| 20:30.51 | Morgreet | I'm all for FIC making the best open hardware at any given time, without waiting for marketting phases or releases. But waiting "just in case" makes no sense at all, life is too short. |
| 20:31.04 | buz | looks like it can only do WVGA though |
| 20:31.14 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@80-192-23-26.stb.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 20:31.21 | buz | i'm against waiting just in case |
| 20:31.28 | buz | i'm however fine with waiting for a reason |
| 20:32.10 | buz | technically this is more fighting with the voice in my head requesting to justify such a purchase |
| 20:35.42 | Morgreet | I'm interested in VirtualLogix's virtualization stuff in that design. It has potential for bad as well as good though --- eg. bad would be if they use virt to close off access to proprietary subsystems running on the same SoC. |
| 20:36.45 | *** join/#openmoko thresh (n=popa3d@unaffiliated/thresh) |
| 20:37.57 | koen | buz: arm920t |
| 20:38.42 | buz | that might make for a cheap 3G neo ;) |
| 20:38.54 | Morgreet | Yes, but not an open one. |
| 20:39.15 | buz | that we dont know for sure |
| 20:39.20 | Morgreet | I can just see it happening. "Reduced bill of materials" is the selling point. But an "open phone" based on that approach does give you a host CPU to own, it gives you part of one. |
| 20:39.29 | woglinde | hm I think otherwise you cant hold the price |
| 20:39.34 | woglinde | with a better soc |
| 20:39.35 | Morgreet | doesn't* give you ... |
| 20:39.48 | buz | if the performance is good enough, i dont i'd care |
| 20:40.12 | Morgreet | buz: I do, or I wouldn't be interested in the openness of the Neo. |
| 20:40.32 | buz | well if it comes with proper drivers it would be open too |
| 20:40.33 | nab | Just out of curiousity, what is the CPU frequency scale that is supported in gen1..? |
| 20:40.42 | Morgreet | 266 |
| 20:40.42 | nab | s/scale/scaling |
| 20:40.43 | buz | the virtualization thing is basically "hardware" |
| 20:40.56 | nab | Morgreet: That is full power..? |
| 20:41.32 | Morgreet | That's all, yes. This is an S3C2410 |
| 20:41.55 | *** join/#openmoko _k-s_ (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 20:43.30 | Morgreet | buz: you'd get sources only for your virtual guest O/S, not for the hypervisor. It would be no more open than the PS3 is open when it runs Linux. No access to the graphics for example, it's blocked by Sony's hypervisor. |
| 20:43.58 | koen | the plan is to get a dirt cheap v1 to get the software into shape and have more feature-rich (and hence more expensive) models later on |
| 20:44.01 | nab | Morgreet: Plus it disallows any ATAPI CDBs related to DVD-CSS or ACCS. |
| 20:44.05 | nab | Boooooo-Hisss! |
| 20:44.10 | nab | :-) |
| 20:44.12 | Morgreet | nab: yeah |
| 20:44.22 | buz | that's what you get for buying sony |
| 20:44.28 | koen | having v1 cost €700 isn't going to get you a lot developers nor users |
| 20:44.45 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:44.46 | buz | i'd pay that much for my $dreamphone |
| 20:44.47 | Morgreet | Virtualization is *great* when you're in charge of the hypervisor. It sucks rocks when you're a mere guest O/S. |
| 20:44.55 | thresh | 350 euro is expensive too |
| 20:45.01 | woglinde | buz than wait for the road phone |
| 20:45.08 | woglinde | and pay 1200 euros |
| 20:45.08 | buz | that's pure vapor ware |
| 20:45.12 | woglinde | no |
| 20:45.16 | woglinde | I have touched it |
| 20:45.18 | buz | i wont pay 1200EUR |
| 20:45.34 | buz | i might pay that amount for a new laptop |
| 20:45.37 | buz | but not a phone |
| 20:45.55 | buz | woglinde: so when is road planning on actually delivering those things? |
| 20:46.12 | buz | they sure are nifty, but the pricing is way out |
| 20:47.33 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 20:47.33 | woglinde | buz dont know, dont know why they struggeling with the software |
| 20:47.36 | loufoque | I think the current neo1973 is already too costly |
| 20:47.40 | woglinde | so long now |
| 20:47.55 | woglinde | loufouge it is a good price |
| 20:48.02 | buz | the price is ok |
| 20:48.10 | buz | tho i'd rather pay 20% more for wifi and a cam |
| 20:48.35 | woglinde | I dont need a cam |
| 20:48.44 | woglinde | but wifi |
| 20:48.52 | buz | a working cam would be useful |
| 20:48.59 | buz | and wifi reaaaaallly useful |
| 20:49.00 | nab | Yes, Wifi is key for me as well. |
| 20:49.08 | SuN | Do you have any idea how much say, a Rokr or a SE W800i would cost without being subsidized/tied to a contract? $350 for a phone with those specs is very cheap. |
| 20:49.23 | nab | Once the device is within range of the hotspot, you can watch video from your device. |
| 20:49.31 | woglinde | sun look at ebay |
| 20:49.41 | loufoque | Morgreet: why does Sony restrict access to the hardware from linux? |
| 20:49.54 | Morgreet | loufoque: because Sony is evil |
| 20:49.54 | nab | loufoque: Because they have a media arm of their company |
| 20:50.31 | woglinde | hm because sony is a large company and the right hand dont know waht the left hand do with linux |
| 20:50.35 | nab | And since they are selling those boxes at a ~250 USD loss, the can't afford to give hacks a very easy way to turn their hardware against their software interests. |
| 20:50.38 | nab | But anyways. |
| 20:50.39 | nab | :P |
| 20:50.49 | Morgreet | loufoque: nab is 100% right. Sony the equipment maker is no more. They are purely a media-delivery company now, a fact that even the Japanese minister for IT has criticised. |
| 20:50.51 | SuN | The Rokr E2 starts at $180 and it's not nearly as powerful. |
| 20:51.05 | nab | SuN: I picked up mine on ebay for ~220 |
| 20:51.11 | buz | a SE W800i roughly 250E |
| 20:51.14 | buz | new without contract |
| 20:52.28 | koen | unsubsidized as well? |
| 20:52.31 | buz | yes |
| 20:52.31 | loufoque | Morgreet: I thought they wanted to see various individuals participate in content creation for the PS3. If they restrict access, those individuals are rather limited. |
| 20:52.36 | nab | Morgreet: The problem for Playstation3/iSCSI is that all of the storage devices have been successfuly exported out over iSCSI. |
| 20:52.41 | buz | if it's without contract, it's unsubsized |
| 20:52.51 | koen | buz: not necessarily |
| 20:52.54 | SuN | In that light, I don't think $350 for something with a screen that's 4x as sharp, GPS AND an open platform is unfair. |
| 20:52.58 | buz | around here it usually is |
| 20:52.59 | nab | Except, that under GuestOS only DVD-Rs can be successfully played under the hypervisor. |
| 20:53.00 | koen | buz: could be surplus subsidized phones |
| 20:53.06 | Morgreet | loufoque: yes, that's what Kutaragi said, once upon a time. But he was either lying, or he was overruled. |
| 20:53.08 | nab | Any actual pressed DVDs that you own, cannot. |
| 20:53.14 | nab | Go figure that one out?! |
| 20:53.19 | nab | </offtopic> |
| 20:53.21 | nab | :P |
| 20:53.23 | SuN | The subscription is what gets them the subsidy, not the phone. |
| 20:53.49 | buz | it's without signing a contract, i.e. you can buy it without selling your soul |
| 20:53.59 | buz | i dont care if someone is stupid enough to subsidize that |
| 20:54.18 | buz | be my guest |
| 20:54.21 | loufoque | It's ridiculous to have an operating system on a console without graphics hardware acceleration |
| 20:54.41 | nab | loufoque: Yes. |
| 20:54.45 | Morgreet | nab: so what you mean is, Sony's protections will soon enough come to naut. |
| 20:54.54 | nab | loufoque: But most people who run Linux on the PS3 arent really interested in the graphics hardware I don't think. |
| 20:55.11 | nab | They want a cheap way to have access to the CBA. |
| 20:55.18 | nab | Morgreet: I can't really say. |
| 20:55.38 | nab | I just want to be able to play all of the media that I own on all of the devices I own from the PS3. |
| 20:55.40 | buz | personally i think the ps3 itself is somewhat ridiculous |
| 20:55.45 | nab | And I can't do that right now.. Grrrr |
| 20:55.45 | Morgreet | nab: Two different camps. All the games people wanted access to the graphics. All the computing people wanted access to the Cell. |
| 20:55.55 | nab | Morgreet: Fair enough. :P |
| 20:56.07 | nab | Hell, even the PS2 Linux Kit had access to the graphics hardware. |
| 20:56.18 | *** join/#openmoko thresh (n=popa3d@unaffiliated/thresh) |
| 20:56.22 | nab | I really have no idea why SCEI prevented that in the PS3 launch. |
| 20:56.25 | loufoque | nab: if you just want to experiment the Cell, better buy the real thing. |
| 20:56.34 | Morgreet | PS2 was from before Sony's death as a hardware manufacturer. |
| 20:56.37 | nab | loufoque: The real thing is much more expensive. |
| 20:56.47 | buz | does ibm actually ship cell now? |
| 20:56.56 | nab | loufoque: The next cheapest thing is a development board from Terasoft. |
| 20:56.58 | Morgreet | buzL only on blades |
| 20:57.16 | buz | right so the case costs 10times what a ps3 costs alone |
| 20:57.22 | Morgreet | Yep |
| 20:57.29 | nab | buz: Yes, also Mercury Systems is gearing up to ship a 4x 4U Cell rackmount very soon. |
| 20:57.44 | nab | They are the first vendor aside from Sony and IBM who will be shipping CBA based hardware. |
| 20:57.46 | Morgreet | nab: yeah, but they're a military supplier. |
| 20:57.55 | *** join/#openmoko holtmann (n=holtmann@nikita.holtmann.net) |
| 20:58.14 | buz | when i can get a 8 core 1u operon box i think i prefer that one ;) |
| 20:58.16 | jebba | Morgreet, i think terrasoft is going to ship the mercury stuff too, but i'm not certain (i used to work @ TS) |
| 20:58.37 | Morgreet | jebba: interesting |
| 20:58.48 | nab | jebba: That sounds about right. |
| 20:58.54 | nab | :-) |
| 20:59.17 | jebba | they work with mercury quite often, iirc (i haven't worked there for years, but they are still on my radar... ;) |
| 20:59.17 | nab | loufoque: So away, the PS3 is by far the easiest and cheapest way to get your hands dirty with the SPEs. |
| 20:59.40 | nab | Well, unless of course you count the IBM Alphaworks Cell Simulator. |
| 20:59.42 | Morgreet | buz: you can get 8-core Opterons from Sun right now, quad dual cores in the Sun Fire 4x00 series. |
| 20:59.46 | nab | But lets take that off the shelf for now. |
| 20:59.58 | buz | i know |
| 21:00.01 | buz | and for a while |
| 21:00.08 | buz | soon 16x |
| 21:00.34 | buz | prsonally i'm more interesting in a quad core notebook though |
| 21:00.38 | Morgreet | And damn good prices from Sun too. Pity that they have no interest in selling, even when money is waved under their nose. Hopeless sales division. |
| 21:01.01 | buz | the fire2100 is a steal |
| 21:01.19 | buz | for a long while it was cheaper than even hell's P4 crapola |
| 21:01.44 | koen | people actually bought P4's for performance? |
| 21:01.46 | nab | buz: woop |
| 21:02.07 | buz | koen: people buying servers from dell obviously would |
| 21:02.09 | nab | koen: Actually, some of the later models preformed quite well when they where put into a decent chipset. |
| 21:02.17 | Morgreet | Yep. X2100 is the lowest price 1U thing around, and the X2100 M2 is the cheapest full virt 1U box with Pacifica. I want one, but I'll be darned if I can get any them to sell without all manner of third-party reseller barriers. |
| 21:02.27 | koen | nab: compared to what? |
| 21:02.30 | nab | IBM's xseries with the layer model netbursts are actually extraordinary fast. |
| 21:02.46 | koen | nab: the IPC factor was still ridicilously low |
| 21:02.51 | buz | the xseries is decent |
| 21:02.51 | nab | koen: Comparted to a single northbridge for cache coherency traffic, memory traffic and IO traffic. |
| 21:03.01 | buz | but x2100 was much more bang for the money |
| 21:03.06 | koen | OMG 10GHz!!!! with the performance of a 2GHz p3 |
| 21:03.10 | nab | buz: What is interesting is that the xseries is more expesive than the pseries. |
| 21:03.20 | buz | pseries is ppc or what? |
| 21:03.20 | nab | s/expesive/expensive |
| 21:03.26 | nab | <nod> |
| 21:03.30 | buz | ppc used to be way over 5K usd |
| 21:03.34 | koen | buz: power, not powerpc |
| 21:03.35 | nab | The p505 have I/O bandwith out the ying-yang |
| 21:03.45 | buz | power5 is a beast |
| 21:04.04 | woglinde | next zseries will be power too |
| 21:04.08 | nab | Software only iSCSI has gone 1200 MB/sec on two p505s.. |
| 21:04.16 | nab | Crazy I/O bandwith |
| 21:04.18 | woglinde | so ibm has one line for all series i p x and z |
| 21:04.24 | Morgreet | Perhaps I should look at IBM then. Maybe they don't have a sales force that is completely out to lunch like Sun. |
| 21:05.18 | nab | Morgreet: honestly, I would beg, borrow or steal to get my hands on p505s |
| 21:05.28 | buz | 5200EUR for a lowend p505 doesnt seem cheaper than xseries to me |
| 21:05.52 | nab | I had access to a bunch of pseries machine through a partner, and it was very hard to let them go. |
| 21:05.52 | Morgreet | Aye, that's pricey. |
| 21:06.02 | nab | buz: They are. |
| 21:06.13 | buz | i only care for the very cheapest price |
| 21:06.15 | nab | buz: That is the 2x socket 4x core module I beleve. |
| 21:06.55 | nab | Those also ship with PCI-X v2.0 266mhz if anyone cares. |
| 21:06.55 | nab | :P |
| 21:07.05 | Elrond | I have old power, power2, powerpc at the univ. They're not any fun anymore. |
| 21:07.17 | nab | IBM and Newisys was the only vendor to actually implement PCI-X v2.0. |
| 21:07.40 | buz | long live pci-e |
| 21:07.49 | nab | buz: here-here |
| 21:08.04 | buz | pci-x has always been an evil spec |
| 21:08.58 | nab | buz: I am waiting for 10 Gb/sec with iWARP running 16x PCIe. |
| 21:09.10 | buz | wtf is iwarp |
| 21:09.19 | nab | That is what will propel IP storage into the same level as FC. |
| 21:09.22 | buz | apple meets startrek |
| 21:09.46 | nab | buz: The primary of iWARP (Internet Wide Area RDMA Protocol) is DDP (Direct Data Placement) |
| 21:09.47 | buz | can you run 10gige on copper now? |
| 21:10.06 | buz | or is that to remain fibre only |
| 21:10.17 | nab | ie: enough metadata in IP packets to the receiving end can deremine the final offset into the application buffer. |
| 21:10.32 | nab | ie: Gets rid of the reassembly -> application buffer copy when using sockets. |
| 21:10.47 | nab | buz: Some switch vendors are shipping Copper 10Gb/sec now. |
| 21:10.55 | nab | I think one NIC vendor is as well. |
| 21:11.07 | buz | on cat7? |
| 21:11.08 | nab | But it is using the Infiband cabling, not Cat6. |
| 21:11.14 | nab | Not just yet. |
| 21:11.16 | buz | iieew |
| 21:11.24 | buz | i rather use fibre than infiniband stuff |
| 21:11.24 | nab | iieew indeed. |
| 21:11.40 | Elrond | What's infiniband really? |
| 21:11.52 | buz | ultra low latency network |
| 21:11.57 | nab | buz: I keep hearing Q3 2007 for Cat6 + 10 Gb/sec. |
| 21:12.03 | buz | schweet |
| 21:12.17 | buz | if i wasnt so lazy i'd run cat6 here |
| 21:12.21 | nab | That should definately reduce the BOM for 10 Gb/sec hardware significantly. |
| 21:12.26 | Elrond | buz - Ahh, that's why they keep talking about it for clustering stuff. |
| 21:12.43 | buz | yup clustering is the main use for it |
| 21:12.49 | buz | as it is for myrinet |
| 21:12.50 | thresh | And DLing porn. |
| 21:12.54 | buz | (is that still around?) |
| 21:13.12 | nab | Elrond: It is typically used for shared memory clusters, ie: so a single application on a single machine can access all of the memory from all of the machines in the cluster. |
| 21:13.22 | buz | i wonder if those PCI-E cabling spec could be used for clusters |
| 21:13.33 | buz | think a 32way 16x PCI-E crossbar |
| 21:13.36 | nab | And of course the biggest benefit is that the application does not have to be modified. |
| 21:13.48 | buz | each linking 4*4 core opterons |
| 21:13.51 | nab | buz: What are the distance limitations on PCI-e cabling..? |
| 21:13.55 | buz | not sure |
| 21:14.02 | buz | only read about it on ars yesterday or so |
| 21:14.07 | nab | buz: I know that Newisys is working on a 64-socket operation setup. |
| 21:14.20 | buz | that's gonna cost like $SERIOUS |
| 21:14.31 | buz | 4way is sort of affordable |
| 21:14.31 | nab | If this is using a single machine or multiple machines with a shared memory interconnect, I have no idea. |
| 21:14.54 | nab | buz: I imagine that you can purchase a certain number of sockets at a time and scale up with your requirements. |
| 21:14.54 | Elrond | nab, buz - I also read it on ibm's gpfs stuff. (I hope, they make gpfs once FOSS...) |
| 21:15.13 | buz | i rather thinker myself ;) |
| 21:15.24 | buz | not that i actually have any use at all for such stuff |
| 21:16.09 | nab | Fun stuff.:P |
| 21:16.24 | nab | But lets scale it back from 64 sockets to one 266mhz SoC. ;P |
| 21:16.42 | buz | neo beowulf |
| 21:16.43 | buz | hehehehe |
| 21:16.45 | buz | over usb1.1 |
| 21:16.56 | Elrond | over BT! |
| 21:17.22 | buz | grps really |
| 21:17.26 | CM | Someone has to do a "Neowulf" cluster just for the sake of it.. |
| 21:17.33 | buz | CM i agree |
| 21:17.38 | *** join/#openmoko esden_ (n=esden@p54997E8C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:17.39 | buz | just to get on slashdot once more |
| 21:17.39 | nab | Wow.. |
| 21:17.41 | Elrond | So when we meet up... our neos can start simulating half the world. ;o) |
| 21:17.45 | nab | And you think that iSCSI/GSM is crazy.. |
| 21:17.50 | buz | i wonder if emulated neos would work |
| 21:17.59 | buz | nab: i had two beers in the meantime ;) |
| 21:18.09 | nab | Oh, that sounds good |
| 21:18.09 | buz | suddenly iscsi over gsm doesnt seem to be that carzy anymore |
| 21:18.15 | Morgreet | Oh, don't worry about 266MHz SoC. We've figured out that 266MHz SoC + FPGA + ponies == 10GHz octocore. |
| 21:18.22 | Elrond | <-- getting food now. |
| 21:18.44 | buz | 10 transistor octocore or what |
| 21:19.17 | Morgreet | Probably, "what" |
| 21:19.30 | buz | LOL |
| 21:19.34 | buz | i need to remember that one ;) |
| 21:19.58 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 21:20.03 | nab | I think the mobile beowulf is in line with running PoE over wifi, and the Tivo that can fast-forward live tee-vee. |
| 21:20.13 | nab | Something to do with the flux capacitor I think. |
| 21:20.17 | buz | LOL |
| 21:20.23 | buz | not really |
| 21:20.23 | woglinde | lol |
| 21:20.30 | Morgreet | wifi and pink probably feel left out now. But only 2 days to go, they'll survive the ordeal ... |
| 21:20.36 | buz | the mobile beowulf is actually possible right now |
| 21:20.54 | buz | thining of it, so is PoE over wifi |
| 21:21.02 | Morgreet | Hahahaha |
| 21:21.02 | buz | only living next to that wifi is not really feasible |
| 21:21.12 | Morgreet | Well with enough wattage ... |
| 21:21.31 | buz | microwave ovens run in the 2.4ghz band right |
| 21:21.35 | Morgreet | yep |
| 21:21.41 | nab | Morgreet: PoE+Wifi sounds more useful has a riot control mechinism.. |
| 21:21.55 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@204.11.230.174.static.etheric.net) |
| 21:21.58 | nab | :-) |
| 21:22.07 | buz | i think there was news about something like that two weeks ago or so |
| 21:22.08 | Morgreet | nab: Oh I thin they're already deploying it as such |
| 21:22.09 | nab | s/has/as |
| 21:22.25 | buz | non lethal but very painful |
| 21:22.46 | buz | (and somehow illegal by geneva convention, apparently outright killing people is ok though) |
| 21:23.06 | Morgreet | It sounds ideal for testing on the politician who wishes to authorize it. |
| 21:24.59 | nab | Wow, it is almost 1:30PST and I have not done a single bit of work. |
| 21:25.03 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 21:25.11 | nab | ok folks, catch you in a bit. :P |
| 21:25.44 | woglinde | hm its 12.30 pm here |
| 21:25.48 | woglinde | args |
| 21:25.50 | woglinde | 10.30 |
| 21:26.07 | Morgreet | cya nab |
| 21:26.29 | nab | Thanks for the information gents, I am looking forward to working with OpenMoko! |
| 21:26.47 | nab | Cheers Morgreet! |
| 21:26.54 | Morgreet | "work" is something you don't enjoy. The only time techies work is when they're doing the paperwork. |
| 21:27.06 | Morgreet | :P |
| 21:27.32 | nab | Morgreet: Work == Coding that does not involve the most interesting idea on the most 'shiny' new piece of hardware. |
| 21:27.56 | buz | i pray for you it's not on ms platform |
| 21:28.06 | nab | hehe |
| 21:28.06 | buz | because that's not work |
| 21:28.10 | buz | that's punishment |
| 21:28.12 | nab | Of course not. |
| 21:28.43 | nab | My day job is iSCSI related. ;P |
| 21:28.51 | nab | er, storage related. |
| 21:29.07 | buz | so do you pronounce iscsi as i-sexy? |
| 21:29.16 | nab | I-Scuzzy |
| 21:29.19 | nab | hehe |
| 21:29.23 | nab | Vrrroooommm |
| 21:29.35 | jebba | will MACHINE=ep93xx and `bitbake gpe-image` build everything needed for bootstrapping the phone and such too? (i'm just a little impatient as it churns along...) |
| 21:30.17 | koen | it will package packages that are more or less 'compatible' with the phase 0 software |
| 21:30.24 | koen | s/will/will build/ |
| 21:30.59 | jebba | i guess what i don't get is where the actual boot-code is then, if it's not part of OE |
| 21:31.11 | XorA|gone | MACHINE=smdk2440 is a whole lot closer to the phone |
| 21:31.28 | koen | fic-gta01 even closer :)P |
| 21:31.35 | koen | s:P:: |
| 21:31.44 | XorA|gone | koen: shush, were not allowed to say that for 48 hours |
| 21:31.49 | Morgreet | Development by successive approximation ... ;-) |
| 21:32.04 | koen | XorA|gone: I already mailed the .conf to the devel list last week :) |
| 21:32.27 | Morgreet | XorA|gone: it's OK, we didn't hear it. |
| 21:33.02 | jebba | uh, so, um, in sum, i'm kind of building a bunch of stuff that i'll have to start over with again, so these are kind of wasted cycles for now... (and I should just go back to being patient ;) |
| 21:33.38 | Morgreet | jebba: just join the rest of us in random jabber to mask our impatience :-) |
| 21:34.03 | jebba | ;) |
| 21:34.17 | buz | actually it's more of distraction from the fact that i have exams next week ; |
| 21:34.22 | jebba | counter |
| 21:34.23 | aloril | 2 days 08:25:37 (2.351 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.351 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.351 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (195) |
| 21:35.07 | Morgreet | Mid-term? |
| 21:35.24 | buz | end term |
| 21:35.29 | buz | term eneded today |
| 21:37.03 | buz | swiss university courses in general have no mid term |
| 21:38.53 | buz | are there any swiss in here, btw? |
| 21:40.33 | buz | i'm wondering if one could save shipping witha mass order |
| 21:41.27 | woglinde | buz hm the second round will be shiped from europe too I read in a forum |
| 21:41.44 | woglinde | so shipping will not be the expensive |
| 21:42.41 | buz | mhh is second round phase2? |
| 21:42.45 | buz | i dont wanna wait that long |
| 21:42.50 | koen | heh, forums |
| 21:43.06 | koen | "bunch of clueless people too stupid to use email" |
| 21:43.49 | woglinde | koen that are people who use social group sides as facebook xing or studivz |
| 21:44.13 | stefan_schmidt | oh, we have a forum. Does this mean community ml is useful again? |
| 21:44.45 | buz | stefan_schmidt: better than before |
| 21:45.19 | stefan_schmidt | good |
| 21:45.35 | koen | stefan_schmidt: openmoko still doesn't have a forum |
| 21:45.56 | woglinde | it was in the heise.de froum |
| 21:46.16 | stefan_schmidt | koen: So we have booth no forum and calm community ml. Even better. :) |
| 21:46.38 | koen | stefan_schmidt: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/images/20070207/a780/Angstrom-gpe-image-test-20070207-a780.rootfs.tar.bz2 should boot into gpe and keep the phone alive |
| 21:46.41 | stefan_schmidt | woglinde: I stopped reading heise forum 3 years ago. No time for bullshit. :) |
| 21:47.33 | woglinde | stefan hm sometimes its fun |
| 21:47.46 | woglinde | but the poster sounded reasonable we will se |
| 21:47.47 | buz | compared to heise, slashdot is for intellectuals |
| 21:47.48 | woglinde | e |
| 21:48.13 | stefan_schmidt | koen: Ok. I stopped all my work until university tests are finished. Cold and learning. :( |
| 21:48.29 | stefan_schmidt | Just hanging around here for some minutes before sleep. |
| 21:48.50 | woglinde | stefan which courses? |
| 21:49.50 | stefan_schmidt | woglinde: Nebenfach Psychologie and Wahscheinlichkeitstheorie (Informatik). |
| 21:50.58 | woglinde | isnt it math? |
| 21:51.17 | woglinde | I will write next week about np problems |
| 21:51.21 | woglinde | *sigh* |
| 21:51.28 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy_ (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 21:51.39 | stefan_schmidt | woglinde: Yes, one of the math courses I need. |
| 21:53.36 | buz | mhh statistics is actually one of the more useful topics |
| 21:53.50 | buz | statistics is of rapidly increasing importance in most fields |
| 21:54.01 | buz | (not that i believed that when i had to learn it ;) |
| 21:54.15 | woglinde | hm becoming a guru in spss? |
| 21:54.24 | buz | yikes spss |
| 21:54.37 | buz | talk about bad softare |
| 21:54.45 | woglinde | dont know |
| 21:54.56 | woglinde | I only install it for people who need it |
| 21:55.11 | buz | i think it's mostly used in social sciences |
| 21:55.18 | buz | not sure why anyone would want to use it thoug |
| 21:56.45 | stefan_schmidt | These social guys use it to get a statistic-on-button-press |
| 21:57.35 | buz | even excel can do that |
| 21:57.35 | woglinde | spss and stata |
| 21:57.40 | buz | and with a much saner ui |
| 21:58.06 | woglinde | hm he spss brings his own java 1.3 vm |
| 21:58.18 | buz | but isn't psych also a social science topic? SCNR |
| 21:58.38 | woglinde | buz yes |
| 22:01.14 | stefan_schmidt | buz: Yes, and they also use it. *sigh* |
| 22:01.51 | woglinde | hihi |
| 22:08.39 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gburt@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 22:16.05 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 22:18.17 | jebba | | *** LD_LIBRARY_PATH shouldn't contain the current directory when |
| 22:18.17 | jebba | | *** building glibc |
| 22:19.13 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=sajt@3e44acce.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 22:19.59 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22) |
| 22:24.21 | cpfr | hey what carrier will openmoko be available for |
| 22:24.42 | XorA|gone | cpfr: all |
| 22:24.43 | Morgreet | Any GSM, in theory. |
| 22:24.52 | cpfr | verizon is not gsm, right |
| 22:25.14 | high-rez | verizon is cdma |
| 22:27.20 | high-rez | http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml |
| 22:27.23 | high-rez | For GSM carriers |
| 22:28.17 | high-rez | T-Mobile and Cingular (ATT) are the two large national carriers in the US. |
| 22:29.30 | *** join/#openmoko lucas123 (n=Meijer@lucas.demon.nl) |
| 22:29.31 | XorA|gone | tiz easy, just get a gsm->cdma converter :-D |
| 22:33.18 | Morgreet | | sed -e 's/gsm/cdma/g' |
| 22:33.27 | Morgreet | There ya go, problem solved. Next. |
| 22:39.59 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel_ (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 22:44.07 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 22:45.48 | Elrond | counter |
| 22:45.49 | aloril | 2 days 07:14:11 (2.302 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 2 days (30.302 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 2 days (214.302 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (196) |
| 22:46.38 | Elrond | Hmm, so monday morning in the office, I will see the sources and the whole bugzilla ;o) |
| 22:47.28 | Morgreet | No you won't, because OM will be Slashdotted ;-) |
| 22:47.38 | Elrond | *lol* Right. |
| 22:48.27 | Morgreet | Not to worry, the Slashdot kiddies will lose interest soon. |
| 22:48.59 | Elrond | Why do you think? |
| 22:49.10 | Elrond | ... or do you mean, they will find a new attraction soon? |
| 22:49.37 | Morgreet | Yep, as soon as the next article on the iPhone comes along ... |
| 22:50.17 | Elrond | hihi, yeah, okay. |
| 22:50.34 | Elrond | So at midday, I will be able to look at bugzilla ;) |
| 22:50.36 | Eblis | i didn't realise a thing until just a few days ago, and i'm still uncertain if it's true or not |
| 22:50.42 | Eblis | will OM have multi-touch or not ? |
| 22:50.59 | Eblis | i read an article that said it will but i don't remember reading about multi-touch on the official announcement |
| 22:51.08 | Elrond | Elrond - You mean s/OM/neo/. single-touch is the current answer. |
| 22:51.26 | Elrond | Huh. |
| 22:51.38 | Elrond | Eblis - You mean s/OM/neo/. single-touch is the current answer. |
| 22:51.52 | Eblis | ok, i'll search for that article again |
| 22:52.06 | Morgreet | Initial v1 hardware doesn't seem to have multitouch, as it's a simple resistive 2-axis input to an ADC, we believe. But TS hardware could change at any point. |
| 22:52.12 | Eblis | i also got the impression that OM will have single touch but that article mentioned multi-touch |
| 22:52.51 | Eblis | and i thought: Wow :) |
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| 22:53.06 | Elrond | multi touch might be possible in software, using trickery. |
| 22:53.13 | Morgreet | Yeah? |
| 22:53.25 | Elrond | Morgreet - If we get the ADC output. ;) |
| 22:53.46 | Elrond | ... and people give us a few ADC samplings between toucu-1 and touch-2... it _might_ be possible. |
| 22:54.33 | Morgreet | It could be possible if we reverse the polarity applied to the overlay, because then the ADC converts using a different 2D origin. |
| 22:54.47 | Morgreet | But that's unlikely to be possible. |
| 22:55.09 | Elrond | Shouldn't the second touch change the ADC again? |
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| 22:56.45 | Morgreet | I guess that depends on the ADC conversion method, I guess it might work with successive approximation, but not sure how. Haven't thought about it really. |
| 22:56.55 | Elrond | The one-touch screen, that I payed ages ago in some store, used to put the cursor in between my two fingers. ;) |
| 22:57.02 | SpeedEvil | For a single touch display, being touched again, you have to assume quite a lot about the size/shape of the touching points. |
| 22:57.10 | Morgreet | Interesting |
| 22:57.24 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - you have to assume that a touch, which instantly moves, is in fact another touch. |
| 22:57.27 | lrg | touch is resistive, so the point will be in the middle of the tow |
| 22:57.30 | lrg | two |
| 22:57.32 | Elrond | s/payed/played/ |
| 22:58.00 | SpeedEvil | And so, if you get a touch, and it moves 100 pixels north instantly, it's probable that the user touched the screen again 200 pixels north |
| 22:58.20 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yeah, exactly. |
| 22:58.29 | lrg | no |
| 22:58.42 | lrg | not with this technology |
| 22:58.53 | SpeedEvil | If the display has another couple of electrodes - and you can measure the difference in resistance between top-left and bottom-right, and bottom left and top right, then you can get a bounding box. |
| 22:59.21 | SpeedEvil | Yes, with this technology - a simple resistive touchscreen, with two electrodes |
| 22:59.32 | SpeedEvil | It does not give you the location of the touch. |
| 22:59.41 | SpeedEvil | It gives you the average of all touch locations. |
| 23:00.02 | SpeedEvil | Sort-of, with 'average' being complex mathematically. |
| 23:00.05 | lrg | nope, you cant do multi touch as will average the x,y based on x1,y1 and x2,y2 |
| 23:00.20 | SpeedEvil | Yes, however, in the instant that the second touch happens. |
| 23:00.34 | lrg | and when do you know this happens ? |
| 23:00.34 | SpeedEvil | The touch point moves to the average position. |
| 23:00.50 | Elrond | It moves _fast_. |
| 23:01.07 | SpeedEvil | From this instant movement, you can guess that the new touch happened on the other side of the average position. |
| 23:01.12 | Eblis | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/fics-linuxbased-smartphone-213016.php |
| 23:01.41 | SpeedEvil | Assuming it samples at around 1Khz, rather than 20Hz, which might make it problematic. |
| 23:01.48 | lrg | SpeedEvil: you should write this code and let us see, it's not easy second guesing the user |
| 23:02.05 | Morgreet | Oh, maybe the key is noting that the sudden change in position occurs without the initial touch disappearing. |
| 23:02.19 | SpeedEvil | The user does not have fingers which can move halfway across the screen in half a millisecond. |
| 23:02.30 | SpeedEvil | Or if they do, we need to report that to someone :) |
| 23:02.47 | Elrond | Morgreet - You just get a _quick_ hop of the coords. Without a release between. |
| 23:03.03 | lrg | fwiw, TI have patented this form of touch controller. |
| 23:03.08 | SpeedEvil | It's not second guessing the user. It's trying to guess the users intent, past the mask of poor hardware. |
| 23:03.14 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 23:03.38 | SpeedEvil | Ok, so we lose einstein, but it's worth it. |
| 23:03.39 | Morgreet | Elrond: indeed, that could be the trick. Because if there was release first, then it's not multitouch, so you then have to assume that it's just another 1-finger touch. |
| 23:04.05 | Morgreet | So yeah, dynamic might allow it. But that requires a lot of CPU! |
| 23:04.09 | SpeedEvil | And if it's configurable on or off, it's hardly objectionable to the user if it works better for 99% of users. |
| 23:04.11 | cpfr | there are no cdma gsm convetors |
| 23:04.23 | Eblis | did anyone look at the link i pasted ? :) |
| 23:04.30 | SpeedEvil | I think that was a joke cpfr :) |
| 23:04.34 | lrg | SpeedEvil: it is, have you even written any touch drivers, it's not that easy as you suggest :( |
| 23:04.40 | cpfr | i know |
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| 23:05.14 | SpeedEvil | lrg: no - it's horribly harder. But you can probably get _some_ information out of a multiple touch - even if you can't get the full coordinates. |
| 23:05.36 | Morgreet | lrg: I think we're just trying thought experiments to see if it's *possible* at this point, rather than easy ;-) |
| 23:05.54 | SpeedEvil | For example, move finger across the screen, to select something, then tap another finger on the screen to actio n it. |
| 23:06.08 | Elrond | "possible at all". Assuming we don't need the cpu for anything else, etc. |
| 23:06.08 | SpeedEvil | Think maybe a scrollbar at the bottom. |
| 23:06.36 | SpeedEvil | you move your finger to move the scrollbar, and when something is highlighted, tap with another finger on the display. |
| 23:06.51 | Elrond | hihi. |
| 23:07.11 | SpeedEvil | It depends - you might get a nice stream of interrupts from the ADC. |
| 23:07.19 | SpeedEvil | In which case it's not too bad. |
| 23:07.34 | SpeedEvil | Considering that you only need to do this when the screen is touched. |
| 23:07.46 | SpeedEvil | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/fics-linuxbased-smartphone- |
| 23:07.46 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:07.48 | SpeedEvil | gah |
| 23:08.02 | lrg | SpeedEvil: how do you know when the screen is touch the second time ? |
| 23:08.08 | Morgreet | Hey guys, multitouch isn't a unique magic solition just because Jobs said so ... you're really just using one finger to set a mode. And modes can be set in other ways too. |
| 23:08.38 | SpeedEvil | Because the coordinate you get instantaneously jumps from one touch position to anotehr, then back again. |
| 23:08.51 | lrg | SpeedEvil: you dont get a second irq |
| 23:09.02 | SpeedEvil | You don't know the hardware. |
| 23:09.09 | lrg | SpeedEvil: and how do you tell this isnt analog noise ? |
| 23:09.18 | SpeedEvil | It could be that you can set it up so that you get an interrupt whenever it changes. |
| 23:09.26 | SpeedEvil | Or it could be that you have to poll. |
| 23:09.40 | SpeedEvil | Analog noise generally doesn't move the touch point significantly. |
| 23:09.49 | SpeedEvil | (based on trying to draw on touchpads) |
| 23:10.06 | lrg | SpeedEvil: it does (based on driver development) |
| 23:10.21 | Elrond | And the new position will keep for a few sampings at least. That will say "this was not noise". |
| 23:10.28 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 23:10.50 | SpeedEvil | There _is_ systematic noise that occurs in very worn touchpads that will screw this. |
| 23:11.26 | Elrond | if it jumps like mad, we have to assume "child touching mums neo" ;o) |
| 23:11.26 | SpeedEvil | But... V2 is a cure for that. |
| 23:11.27 | Eblis | it's probably best to wait and see :) |
| 23:11.27 | lrg | but you still are assuming the first finger is still being pressed |
| 23:11.34 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 23:11.54 | SpeedEvil | Ok - I just did some tests, with my ancient handspring visor. |
| 23:11.57 | SpeedEvil | And a drawing app. |
| 23:12.33 | lrg | fwiw, neo touch is single finger only |
| 23:12.49 | lrg | so we don't have to think about it atm ;) |
| 23:12.52 | Elrond | lrg - What will it do, when two fingers are on it? |
| 23:12.56 | SpeedEvil | It works as expected - draw a line up the screen with a finger, then tap off to the left of that line, you get a new line between the new touch and the old line, which then goes back to the original line when you remove it. |
| 23:13.11 | lrg | Elrond: middle point |
| 23:13.17 | SpeedEvil | Sigh. |
| 23:13.34 | Elrond | lrg - So we have a jump. ;) All we need. :) |
| 23:13.54 | Elrond | Yes, this is _guessing_! |
| 23:14.15 | SpeedEvil | If there are more than two touches and we assume two, we're screwed. |
| 23:14.25 | SpeedEvil | But the point is not to get an accurate second touch. |
| 23:14.25 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Right. |
| 23:14.37 | SpeedEvil | The point is to be able to click while dragging. |
| 23:14.40 | SpeedEvil | (sort-of) |
| 23:14.55 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - But we're scrwed anyway. :) |
| 23:15.02 | SpeedEvil | Being able to select something without removing finger, and trying to replace in same place. |
| 23:16.32 | Elrond | As I said: When the thing hops like mad, we have to assume (small-child-got-mums-neo)-mode. ;o) |
| 23:17.15 | Elrond | Is the neo small-child safe? ;o) |
| 23:17.16 | Eblis | Morgreet: i think you were talking about marketing ealier today :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go_VtqtxCHY |
| 23:19.40 | Morgreet | Eblis: I can't see it, it's flagged and I don't have a login. :-( |
| 23:20.12 | Eblis | create an id ? (www.pookmail.com :) ) |
| 23:21.15 | Morgreet | Eblis: can't be asked to make a login for every damn site that wants registration ;-) |
| 23:21.30 | Eblis | bugmenot.com ? |
| 23:21.31 | Eblis | :) |
| 23:21.35 | Morgreet | Hehe |
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| 23:23.28 | Elrond | *lol* There's a website for any crap, right. :) |
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| 23:42.49 | Eblis | night all |
| 23:43.03 | CM | night too |
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