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| 03:57.49 | aloril | nick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25; 215 2007-01-26; 219 2007-02-01; 228 2007-02-05 |
| 04:10.40 | nomasteryoda | cool |
| 04:10.44 | nomasteryoda | still growing |
| 04:10.57 | nomasteryoda | the latest beryl rc1 is sweet on my dull dell |
| 04:11.18 | nomasteryoda | with only 8mb video ram intel chipset it plays videos around the cube while rotating |
| 04:11.20 | Agrajag- | i tried beryl back in the day.. decided it just wasted my time |
| 04:11.22 | nomasteryoda | that is sweet |
| 04:11.28 | nomasteryoda | Agrajag-, its not |
| 04:11.38 | Agrajag- | it's not what? |
| 04:11.41 | nomasteryoda | the zoom feature along for people with any eye problems ... |
| 04:11.45 | nomasteryoda | that is so nice |
| 04:12.00 | nomasteryoda | just press "super" key (aka windows key) and scroll mouse |
| 04:12.19 | nomasteryoda | to zoom.. it stays at the mode until you click out with same sequence |
| 04:12.40 | nomasteryoda | i find that helps my wife who has issues with reading the screen |
| 04:12.54 | Agrajag- | i dont have eye problems.. when i switch desktops or alt-tab i want things to happen quickly - i found that it just wasted my time by not instantaneously changing |
| 04:12.55 | nomasteryoda | and it does not dork up font layouts like in web pages... |
| 04:13.04 | nomasteryoda | oh i still have that |
| 04:13.21 | nomasteryoda | and ... new beryl has on/off button in tray |
| 04:13.36 | nomasteryoda | choosing kde/metacity deco also... |
| 04:13.39 | nomasteryoda | if so desired |
| 04:13.50 | nomasteryoda | i really want one of these phones though |
| 04:13.53 | Agrajag- | yeah but i didn't find any of the features were actually useful |
| 04:14.06 | nomasteryoda | just need to decide on how i can help develop |
| 04:14.23 | nomasteryoda | they are great for making windows folks jealous |
| 04:14.30 | nomasteryoda | even vista can't compare |
| 04:14.31 | loufoque | I had few and little bugs with beryl, but those were enough for me to uninstall it. I didn't use the effects anyway, it's just annoying. |
| 04:14.41 | nomasteryoda | its so nice now |
| 04:14.56 | loufoque | When I want to open a window, I want that window to be opened. I don't want to see some stupid animation before it opens. |
| 04:15.09 | nomasteryoda | much improved ... my intel card plays stuff it would never before i had beryl |
| 04:15.16 | nomasteryoda | i agree |
| 04:15.29 | nomasteryoda | i tweak the settings to get fast open/close |
| 04:15.33 | nomasteryoda | etc... |
| 04:16.19 | spikebik1 | [A |
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| 06:02.12 | aloril | counter |
| 06:02.13 | aloril | 5 days 23:57:47 (5.998 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.998 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.998 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
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| 07:41.07 | hrw | morning |
| 07:41.17 | hrw | aloril: ahhgr.. |
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| 07:45.12 | aloril | hrw: ? |
| 07:47.07 | hrw | aloril: its morning and you remind me that I have to wait 1.5-2 weeks... |
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| 08:00.51 | ynezz | counter |
| 08:00.51 | aloril | 5 days 21:59:08 (5.916 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.916 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.916 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 08:04.42 | hrw | someone here use ubuntu? |
| 08:05.43 | fluffs | yes |
| 08:09.07 | hrw | show me /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 08:12.52 | aloril | hrw: about 6 days + shipping (in 6 days it should be middle of Monday at Taiwain, so... there should be no extra time except actual shipping) |
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| 08:15.41 | ninHer | g'day all |
| 08:17.04 | fluffs | http://www.fluff.org/ben/unbuntu.aptsrc |
| 08:18.29 | hrw | thx |
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| 08:20.59 | hrw | fluffs: 404 ;( |
| 08:22.19 | fluffs | http://www.fluff.org/ben/ubuntu.aptsrc |
| 08:22.42 | hrw | thx |
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| 08:54.48 | ecraven | morning |
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| 10:16.40 | buz | is there any binary version of XMPP? seems kinda inefficient to send XML instant messages over GPRS |
| 10:17.25 | koen | use a ssh tunnel to the jabber server :) |
| 10:18.49 | buz | no need, jabber can do ssl itself |
| 10:18.55 | mjr | mmh, yeah, the xml stuff is some overhead... wonder if it supports negotiating compression |
| 10:19.01 | buz | but even compressed XMPP is overhead |
| 10:19.06 | koen | buz: ssh -C, not ssl |
| 10:19.16 | buz | i think openssl can negotiate compression no? |
| 10:19.33 | mjr | hmm, maybe, not sure |
| 10:19.54 | mjr | Jabber at least does seem to have a draft spec for negotiating it, if openssl/gnutls/friends don't |
| 10:20.22 | mjr | rfc3749 does seem to spesify TLS compression options |
| 10:20.43 | buz | yeah TLS has compression |
| 10:21.06 | buz | but still, a simple binary protocolwould work with less traffic... |
| 10:21.35 | mjr | well, probably |
| 10:22.05 | buz | i mean what do you really need once a connection is established? a way to get the contact list (perhaps) and one to send/receive messages |
| 10:22.21 | buz | some sort of UID:message would be plenty for most uses i guess |
| 10:22.27 | mjr | apparently openssl and gnutls have implemented deflate as per rfc 3749: http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/rfc-3749-implementations.txt |
| 10:23.26 | mjr | can't be bothered to read the detailed report now though |
| 10:23.28 | mjr | meeting soon |
| 10:24.34 | buz | http://www.agiledelta.com/w3c_binary_xml_proposal.html is that supported by anything? |
| 10:34.10 | aloril | big step is XML -> compression, XML -> binary might be even less efficient, though most efficient is probably XML -> binary -> compression |
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| 10:34.19 | Stephmw | mornin' |
| 10:43.51 | buz | using a slimmer protocol would probably be biggest step |
| 10:44.31 | XorA | stupd XML numpties |
| 10:44.34 | mjr | mmh, theoretically a good compressor should be about the same with or without binary xml format, but of course in practice there may be differences |
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| 10:45.37 | XorA | ~prod lrg |
| 10:45.39 | apt | ACTION zaps lrg with a high voltage cattle prod |
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| 10:56.09 | jannu | There is a draft standard about stream compression outside TLS in XMPP |
| 10:56.14 | jannu | http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html |
| 10:56.50 | mjr | yeah I noticed that |
| 10:57.17 | mjr | but if gnutls and openssl implement tls-level compression, perhaps easier to use that |
| 10:59.00 | jannu | Probably yes. |
| 10:59.47 | koen | it depends on how big your xmpp messages are |
| 11:00.22 | jannu | I wonder what kind of protocol Agile Messenger uses |
| 11:00.59 | jannu | iirc when I used it the bandwidth usage was really low |
| 11:01.12 | hrw | I think that best would be compress-before-send |
| 11:02.07 | koen | counter |
| 11:02.07 | aloril | 5 days 18:57:52 (5.790 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.790 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.790 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 11:02.12 | jannu | yep. and encrypt, in case the cpu overhead isn't too big |
| 11:03.41 | XorA | koen: Angstrom you phewl |
| 11:03.58 | koen | XorA: the mix will be used in angstrom of course :) |
| 11:04.20 | hrw | koen: and how much of poky is in moko |
| 11:04.42 | jannu | XorA: real protocol as in "whatever network the user is in" or something else? |
| 11:04.42 | koen | hrw: at least that wretched xserver-kdrive-common |
| 11:05.02 | hrw | Installing xserver-xorg (X11R7.1-1.1.0-r0) to root... |
| 11:05.27 | koen | hrw: if you have ipkg available, you can put those in the feeds |
| 11:05.30 | koen | (or I could) |
| 11:06.45 | XorA | jannu: as in XML is fscking stupid idea for an on the wire protocol |
| 11:07.43 | jannu | XorA: XML is a stupid idea for most things it's used in |
| 11:08.00 | XorA | jannu: damn right there :-) |
| 11:08.46 | CM | And where it is used it's usually used "wrong" |
| 11:09.38 | jannu | It's just like ldap was a few years before it |
| 11:09.53 | jannu | and java and .net and .... |
| 11:10.42 | CM | People like saying "Yes, we send it as an xml-file" even if it's just a big table wrapped in <data>...</data> |
| 11:11.30 | Stephmw | that's because Sales see it as...: XML? [Yes/No] |
| 11:12.13 | CM | Exactly, or SOA or Ajax or what ever is in right now |
| 11:12.46 | jannu | And saying that an application is based on J2EE, XML and SOAP pumps up the price by 200% |
| 11:13.12 | XorA | damn, OpenMoko phones just went upto 700$ :-) |
| 11:13.29 | CM | Hehe |
| 11:13.32 | jannu | Even though in reality the Java part is just wrappers around 20 year-old fortarn code |
| 11:13.48 | jannu | or cobol |
| 11:14.08 | Stephmw | jannu: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.. if it's fossilised, hide it |
| 11:14.17 | jannu | and sell it |
| 11:14.31 | Stephmw | eh? that happened before the dev occured :) |
| 11:15.13 | jannu | no, I mean hide it and get rid of the whole thing, including support |
| 11:15.21 | jannu | especially support |
| 11:15.47 | jannu | outsourcing is fun |
| 11:15.48 | Stephmw | "Oh our competitor does XYZ? So does our Development version!" <ring> <ring> Hi random developer, it's Sales here, we've sold our stuff with XYZ... best add it |
| 11:17.18 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 11:17.35 | jannu | hmm. there must be some really good old cobol-based protocol which we could use for IM |
| 11:18.09 | Stephmw | IP over SMS |
| 11:18.15 | Stephmw | can't get better |
| 11:18.27 | jannu | SMS-anything |
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| 11:26.33 | jannu | btw, anyone familiar with the vibration hardware on the Neo (or mobiles in general)? |
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| 11:26.42 | XorA | jannu: in general |
| 11:27.17 | jannu | what kind of response times do those have? |
| 11:27.45 | jannu | tens or hundreds of ms |
| 11:29.01 | XorA | jannu: they tend to be a motor with a misbalanced weight attached |
| 11:30.13 | jannu | XorA: yep. that's what I was thinking |
| 11:31.41 | jannu | XorA: I was just wondering about using it in providing ui feedback for the touchscreen |
| 11:32.13 | jannu | that'll basically require response times of 10 ms or less |
| 11:32.17 | XorA | jannu: my feeling is it would lag behind any event too much, but I dont actually know what the NEO has fitted |
| 11:33.03 | XorA | phone with a rumble pack though :-) |
| 11:34.00 | jannu | XorA: that's another option |
| 11:34.17 | Stephmw | it's also a bit hungry on power |
| 11:34.25 | koen | bass-boost |
| 11:35.35 | XorA | koen: this phone isnt gonna need bass boosting :-) |
| 11:36.12 | jannu | some sort of touch feedback would be nice though |
| 11:36.47 | koen | XorA: because it already have a bass-reflex unit at the bottom? |
| 11:36.49 | jannu | touchscreen keyboards tend to suck mainly due lack of decent feedback |
| 11:36.53 | koen | s/unit/channel/ |
| 11:37.41 | raynet | jannu: audible feedback on my old Ericsson R380 was pretty sufficient when using a stylus for writing |
| 11:38.01 | raynet | it had a loud *CLICK* sound |
| 11:38.11 | XorA | koen: no idea about the case |
| 11:38.56 | jannu | raynet: that's one option. I'm just a bit sceptical on whether audio is fast enough when you type with your thumbs |
| 11:39.15 | koen | root@h2200:/var/lib/ipkg# uptime |
| 11:39.15 | koen | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:39.38 | raynet | jannu: well, a *click* sound only has to last 20-50ms |
| 11:43.15 | jannu | yes, but the neural response delay is much longer for audio signals than it is for touch |
| 11:45.39 | raynet | true, but i doubt that you will be writing that fast on it |
| 11:45.54 | jannu | plus the connection between physically pressing the touchscreen and getting a physical feedback is obviously a lot easier |
| 11:46.22 | koen | use a mini cattleprod as a stylus |
| 11:46.57 | raynet | extra feedback also uses more battery, though someone will probably write a nice app that shows how many keypresses there are left before you need to recharge |
| 11:47.07 | jannu | koen: or implant my thumbs with some sort of self-electrocuting device |
| 11:48.36 | jannu | raynet: I would suspect that one could start the vibrating motor with less power |
| 11:49.23 | jannu | raynet: after all, you hardly need the regular vibration strength for button press feedback |
| 11:49.41 | raynet | jannu: with less power than with sound... humm, i doubt. and the motor probably has even longer delay than with audio + neural response time (100-150ms) |
| 11:50.01 | jannu | raynet: yes. that's quite likely |
| 11:50.33 | SpeedEvil | If you have the vibrator on low power, it's going to take longer to start. |
| 11:50.37 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@dsl-242-207-209.telkomadsl.co.za) |
| 11:50.41 | raynet | with audio you need to move X gram object for couple mm for couple times. with motor you need to rotate a mass that is 10-100X |
| 11:50.46 | SpeedEvil | You pretty much have to blip it on high power. |
| 11:51.14 | raynet | and it is quite possible that the motor is on/off controlled |
| 11:51.20 | SpeedEvil | That doesn't matter. |
| 11:51.32 | SpeedEvil | You blip it on and off under software control. |
| 11:51.40 | SpeedEvil | To do coarse PWM. |
| 11:51.50 | raynet | SpeedEvil: and waste even more battery :) |
| 11:51.56 | jannu | obviously |
| 11:52.37 | SpeedEvil | Actaully - generally it uses less power than having it on all the time. |
| 11:53.00 | raynet | SpeedEvil: i wouldn't be sure without actually measuring it first |
| 11:53.17 | SpeedEvil | I'm talking of general experience with motors. |
| 11:53.28 | jannu | it's quite likely that to make touch feedback work in a usable way one would need a separate, more lightweight vibrator |
| 11:53.38 | *** part/#openmoko holtmann (n=holtmann@nikita.holtmann.net) |
| 11:53.42 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 11:53.48 | raynet | well, if you have a "special" circuit to control the motor, but emulating the control with ARM cpu isnt (possible) very power efficient |
| 11:53.51 | Stephmw | probably something piezo-based |
| 11:54.23 | raynet | Stephmw: that might work |
| 11:54.23 | SpeedEvil | No, even blipping the motor on and off at 20Hz. |
| 11:54.25 | SpeedEvil | Peizio _sucks_ at low frequency. |
| 11:54.37 | jannu | yep. a small piezo-element might work |
| 11:54.44 | SpeedEvil | Unfortunately not. |
| 11:54.56 | Stephmw | the root problem is that motors' windings have shit power efficiency unless the thing is superconducting |
| 11:54.57 | raynet | piezo element glued to the back of the case so you keep your fingers close to it |
| 11:55.18 | jannu | after all, it only needs to shake the phone for something like 20-50 ms |
| 11:55.19 | SpeedEvil | small pezio elements only produce low frequencies with reasonable drive. |
| 11:55.21 | raynet | also you could then say the device has 2-way audio system :) |
| 11:55.46 | SpeedEvil | You need multiple kilovolts and stacked elements to get low frequency response. |
| 11:56.11 | raynet | why would one need low frequency response? |
| 11:56.31 | SpeedEvil | Because a pulse feelable by fingers pretty much needs it. |
| 11:56.35 | raynet | 5 pulses at 1000Hz would work if the vibration can be directed to the casing |
| 11:56.47 | raynet | (pulse of eg 10ms) |
| 11:56.52 | SpeedEvil | It can't effectively with the powers available. |
| 11:57.05 | SpeedEvil | The fingers don't really pick up that sort of frequency well. |
| 11:58.01 | SpeedEvil | The casing also takes _lots_ of momentum to shake it. |
| 11:58.02 | jannu | hmm. wonder if it could be directed straight to the touchscreen |
| 11:58.11 | raynet | SpeedEvil: my nokia phone does have nice resonance vibrations with some ringtones so i dont think there is need for that much power if the frequency is selected carefully |
| 11:58.32 | SpeedEvil | Yes - but it's going to be very audible. |
| 11:58.54 | nomasteryoda | yeah... think of what effect you could have if one hand rotated the cube... and the other vibrated at a freq. related to the rate of rotation.... |
| 11:58.56 | raynet | humm, too bad i am at the office, i could test a piezo at various frequencies at home |
| 11:58.56 | nomasteryoda | lol |
| 11:59.35 | SpeedEvil | Another problem is that you can only feel a vibration really on the touchscreen if it's touched. |
| 11:59.53 | SpeedEvil | Otherwise, you're touching a floating layer that won't really transmit anything. |
| 12:00.10 | jannu | which it tends to be, if you're thumb typing on it |
| 12:00.28 | SpeedEvil | I've done the pezio experiment - basically, you need a _lot_ of energy to make it click. |
| 12:00.39 | jannu | provided that the response is really fast that is |
| 12:00.50 | SpeedEvil | And it gets worse when you are not touching the pezio directly, but it's in a case. |
| 12:01.09 | SpeedEvil | The problem isn't the energy directly, it's that you need a 50V or so of drive. |
| 12:01.38 | jannu | yep. that's a bit of a problem |
| 12:01.47 | SpeedEvil | It's actually easier for touching to use a loudspeaker with a little weight on it. |
| 12:02.04 | SpeedEvil | Or equivalent. |
| 12:02.28 | jannu | and frequencies around 250Hz or so |
| 12:02.50 | *** join/#openmoko cpfr (n=fourier@nat01-mccormick-ext.Rutgers.EDU) |
| 12:02.53 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 12:03.03 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. Again - this isn't low power though. |
| 12:04.31 | jannu | Still. One can always hope |
| 12:05.33 | SpeedEvil | I went into this when I was designing an mp3 player - not yet built. |
| 12:06.03 | jannu | SpeedEvil: you mean touch screen feedback? |
| 12:06.15 | SpeedEvil | No - touch feedback |
| 12:06.17 | SpeedEvil | no screen |
| 12:06.47 | jannu | ok. sounds interesting |
| 12:07.19 | SpeedEvil | One surprisingly power efficient way was a stepper motor, that wedged the case open and closed by a fraction of a mm. |
| 12:07.49 | SpeedEvil | That has other problems though. |
| 12:08.03 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 12:08.09 | *** join/#openmoko cpfr (n=fourier@nat01-mccormick-ext.Rutgers.EDU) |
| 12:08.37 | jannu | Another option might be to somehow mount the touch screen on a spring |
| 12:08.42 | jannu | Or somesuch |
| 12:09.08 | jannu | In order to get that press-and-release feel |
| 12:09.47 | Stephmw | I think you'd need ~2mm travel for that to be effective though |
| 12:10.33 | Stephmw | how about a tiny electrical discharge? |
| 12:10.55 | jannu | coupled with pressing the layer above the touchscreen you might get away with less than 2 mm |
| 12:11.04 | Stephmw | enough to feel, but not to shock |
| 12:11.39 | jannu | you'd need a conductive surface somewhere |
| 12:11.43 | Stephmw | call it, The ElectroTouch feature ;-) |
| 12:11.48 | Stephmw | or a microgrid |
| 12:12.23 | jannu | actually that might work |
| 12:12.31 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-86-98.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 12:13.07 | jannu | because with a grid you could direct the discharge exactly where your finger is |
| 12:13.25 | Stephmw | downside, dunno about efficiency.. and how do you determine when the contact isn't a finger? |
| 12:13.42 | jannu | do you need to? |
| 12:13.58 | Stephmw | dunno about you, but I stick my phone in my pocket... |
| 12:14.02 | jannu | if the touchscreen isn't locked, just shoot |
| 12:14.21 | Stephmw | jokes aside, that could get the battery down fast |
| 12:14.56 | SpeedEvil | You really don't want to put touchscreen stuff in your pocket with any other stuff. |
| 12:15.12 | SpeedEvil | as it'll scratch up horribly. |
| 12:15.34 | jannu | yep. fingers aren't exactly the world's most sensitive devices when it comes to electricity |
| 12:15.40 | Stephmw | my p910 confirms the scratching :) |
| 12:15.50 | SpeedEvil | Thay are quite sensitive actually. |
| 12:15.54 | SpeedEvil | in terms of joules. |
| 12:16.05 | jannu | that's why you have more than one pocket |
| 12:16.15 | SpeedEvil | The voltage may need to get quite high to put that number of joules into the fingertip. |
| 12:16.26 | SpeedEvil | Plus, unless you have a metal case, there is no ground. |
| 12:16.45 | jannu | yes, but in the range of using the shock for feedback on each and every keypress |
| 12:17.08 | SpeedEvil | Compared with keeping the display backlight on, it's not really horrible. |
| 12:17.23 | jannu | good point |
| 12:17.31 | SpeedEvil | This is why I like hardware buttons. |
| 12:17.36 | CM | I wonder how good the speakers are, what the lowest hz is |
| 12:17.55 | SpeedEvil | For this sort of speaker - it's generally not a good question. |
| 12:18.04 | SpeedEvil | The answer depends more on the housing. |
| 12:18.11 | SpeedEvil | And the volume. |
| 12:18.23 | CM | Probably not much power at 30hz anyway for a small speaker |
| 12:18.26 | SpeedEvil | Generally, a few hundred Hz to get reasonable output. |
| 12:18.30 | SpeedEvil | Essentially zero. |
| 12:19.03 | SpeedEvil | To keep the same output pressure with a given size of speaker, is a problem. |
| 12:19.29 | SpeedEvil | Because the speaker needs to press in and out on the air by a constant amount. |
| 12:19.47 | SpeedEvil | And if it has to keep on doing that for a substantial fraction of a second, it runs out of travel. |
| 12:24.59 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p54AA6BC4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:33.48 | koen | for the community list: http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2007/02/06/dealing-with-zealots-in-open-source-communities/ |
| 12:44.15 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 12:54.07 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-130-055.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:00.09 | *** join/#openmoko osochebol (n=osochebo@58.186.23.43) |
| 13:12.55 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
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| 13:34.15 | *** join/#openmoko nomasteryoda (n=nomaster@57.sub-75-203-211.myvzw.com) |
| 13:39.09 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e70d936.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 13:47.01 | buz | we need http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=738057 in v2 |
| 13:47.54 | *** join/#openmoko jessta_ (n=jessta@203-214-97-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 13:50.30 | Morgreet | koen: that article is a good one, and any reasonable/compromising sort of person would probably agree with it. But the reason it's so easy to agree with is because it's making one simplistic assumption: that the people on a given project are rational whereas the people expressing counter-opinions are not. Unfortunately, that doesn't apply at all when a given project is surrounded by regressive fanboy groupies ... and sadl |
| 13:51.15 | Clint | Morgreet: you got cut off after 'sadl' |
| 13:51.16 | Morgreet | koen: in other words, the article deals with only the easiest problem area in forum life. :P |
| 13:51.29 | Morgreet | k, damn limits: |
| 13:51.44 | xkr47 | buz lol |
| 13:51.46 | Morgreet | REPOST TAIL: ... and sadly, that happens a fair bit. |
| 13:52.04 | buz | together with gf7400go |
| 13:58.12 | Morgreet | The worst kind of fanboys are the "That's impossible, <XXX> said so" ones. Hate them, the most regressive type. |
| 13:59.18 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 13:59.21 | Morgreet | counter |
| 13:59.21 | aloril | 5 days 16:00:38 (5.667 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.667 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.667 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 13:59.55 | xkr47 | thank god february has only 28 days :D |
| 14:00.08 | xkr47 | had it 31, I'd have to wait 3 days more :D |
| 14:00.16 | Morgreet | Hehe |
| 14:01.24 | Morgreet | Feb[25] = '\0'; |
| 14:01.29 | xkr47 | ?-) |
| 14:01.31 | Morgreet | There ya go, shaved another 3 days off. |
| 14:01.36 | xkr47 | lol |
| 14:01.53 | xkr47 | I assume you use 0-indexing.. |
| 14:02.00 | Morgreet | Of course ;p_ |
| 14:07.02 | leventhal | counter |
| 14:07.03 | aloril | 5 days 15:52:57 (5.662 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.662 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.662 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:09.36 | *** join/#openmoko luca (n=luca@host13-67-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 14:10.21 | luca | Hi |
| 14:10.44 | luca | can u tell me where to buy a phone with openmoko? |
| 14:11.04 | Clint | you can't yet |
| 14:11.44 | luca | why? |
| 14:12.03 | Clint | counter |
| 14:12.03 | aloril | 5 days 15:47:57 (5.658 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.658 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.658 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:12.44 | luca | 7 month???!?! |
| 14:12.58 | luca | too much |
| 14:13.02 | Clint | 1 month |
| 14:13.13 | Morgreet | Yep, unless you want it in a developer-only state, in which case just 5 weeks. |
| 14:13.23 | hrw | 2 weeks |
| 14:13.35 | Morgreet | But for plain users who expect all the goodies working, Sept 11 |
| 14:14.03 | Eblis | the phone will ship worldwide even in developer preview, right ? :) |
| 14:14.14 | Morgreet | Allegedly, yeah |
| 14:14.37 | luca | and u know if it will have have a wifi connection? |
| 14:14.45 | Morgreet | Yes we know. It won't. |
| 14:14.53 | luca | :-) |
| 14:15.08 | luca | this is a problem |
| 14:15.55 | Morgreet | Just a matter of priorities: openness, or features? For Neo, it's openness. |
| 14:16.21 | Eblis | openness then features :) |
| 14:16.34 | Eblis | is it known if v2 will have wifi ? |
| 14:16.34 | Clint | yay open features |
| 14:16.50 | Morgreet | Neo v2 will probably have wifi, since the OLPC group is working on an open driver. |
| 14:17.07 | Eblis | aha |
| 14:17.29 | Clint | ha, but will it do mesh? |
| 14:18.01 | Morgreet | And what's more, OLPC has exactly the same reqs as phone: very low power, very low cost. |
| 14:18.41 | Eblis | hmm i think i've read an article on that ... or it was disscussed here yesterday |
| 14:18.43 | Eblis | :) |
| 14:19.06 | Morgreet | No reason why it shouldn't do mesh. However, I assume that would not be able to share the same RF front-end as cellular. Just guessing. |
| 14:19.09 | XorA | Morgreet: thats a huge leap, from OLPC network card to Neo one :-) |
| 14:19.35 | Morgreet | XorA: yep. But huge leaps'R'Us :P |
| 14:20.46 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 14:20.52 | luca | can u tell me the difference between openmoko and qtopia? |
| 14:25.40 | luca | qtopia has a good support for developping new software |
| 14:25.40 | aloril | slight text update: |
| 14:25.40 | aloril | counter |
| 14:25.40 | aloril | 5 days 15:35:01 (5.649 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.649 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.649 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:25.42 | luca | openmoko too? |
| 14:25.54 | aloril | you can install qt at least I think |
| 14:26.25 | luca | in Neo? |
| 14:27.28 | Morgreet | I see that the braindead city of Boston won its suit over the ATHF joke (Slashdot), got $2m in "damages". No surprise though, judges don't remain judges by telling the valiant defenders in the War Against Terror that they're all on crack. |
| 14:28.16 | leventhal | It was an out of court settlement I thought |
| 14:28.17 | aloril | luca: OpenMoko is based on openembedded: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/qt |
| 14:29.44 | luca | so for developping I also need qt? |
| 14:30.46 | Eblis | luca: i'm in the process of porting Mono if you're interesed. i have managed to port portable .net but with some quirks atm |
| 14:30.52 | Clint | Morgreet: i heard that it was an out-of-court settlement |
| 14:32.34 | luca | sorry for all this question but I must to understand... |
| 14:32.56 | luca | I know how to develop application with qt |
| 14:33.13 | luca | so it will be easy to develop for qtopia |
| 14:33.19 | luca | but for openmoko? |
| 14:34.17 | *** join/#openmoko jahu (n=jh@82.119.184.160) |
| 14:35.01 | robtaylor | luca: main differences, GTK versios QT, LGPL versus GPL, c rather than c++ (but you can use GTKmm), the platform is a cutdown version of gnome, you can make commercial software on it wihtout buying a license. |
| 14:35.16 | aloril | luca: qt not needed, but if you want its available |
| 14:36.00 | robtaylor | aloril: though he probably would have problems accessing the framework from qt |
| 14:36.16 | luca | openmoko is based on gtk? |
| 14:36.22 | robtaylor | luca: yep |
| 14:36.46 | luca | ok, now I'm understanding... :-) |
| 14:36.46 | koen | robtaylor: I'm still smiling because dbus finally works |
| 14:37.08 | robtaylor | koen: heh, i'm still perplexed why that hack was needed ;) |
| 14:37.48 | luca | Thanks to all, u were very usefull |
| 14:37.49 | koen | you can image the suckage of having no session-bus |
| 14:38.07 | luca | I must go, bye |
| 14:38.25 | robtaylor | koen: yeah, that would suck hard |
| 14:39.07 | robtaylor | mickeyl: does openmoko have a session bus? any idea why you didn't hit the same problem as GPE? |
| 14:39.35 | koen | robtaylor: they don't use gpe-dm, but a shell wrapper |
| 14:39.39 | robtaylor | ahh |
| 14:39.47 | koen | robtaylor: that, or dbus 0.61 |
| 14:39.55 | robtaylor | *shudder* |
| 14:39.59 | koen | it only started with dbus 0.9x |
| 14:40.07 | robtaylor | interesting |
| 14:40.44 | mickeyl | robtaylor: we have a session bus and we run into the same problem, but due to more important problems no one had time looking into it |
| 14:41.39 | robtaylor | mickeyl: ok, well its fixed in OE now |
| 14:41.45 | mickeyl | excellent. |
| 14:41.56 | robtaylor | it was a complete weirdo |
| 14:42.30 | robtaylor | for some reason, SIGCHLD is blocked for anything launched by GDM (i think the blocker is earlier) |
| 14:42.42 | robtaylor | and that stops waitpid working |
| 14:43.42 | robtaylor | mickeyl: does openmoko have libglade? |
| 14:43.51 | mickeyl | yes |
| 14:43.55 | robtaylor | cool |
| 14:43.57 | koen | if not, it's only a package install away :) |
| 14:43.58 | mickeyl | no support for openmoko widgets though |
| 14:44.00 | mickeyl | (yet) |
| 14:44.20 | robtaylor | ok, not suprising :) |
| 14:44.53 | robtaylor | mickeyl: checkout my current project: http://live.gnome.org/High5/PeopleBrowser |
| 14:45.04 | koen | mickeyl: judging from your comments on image use, the integer pixops patch would speed it up a lot, but sapwood would speed it up even more |
| 14:45.14 | koen | mickeyl: although I still haven't found docs on sapwood |
| 14:45.23 | robtaylor | just got it talking to ebook last night, so starting to get excited about it :) |
| 14:45.49 | mickeyl | as far as I can tell, integer pixops is 100% important as it speeds up a lot more than just the pixmap engine |
| 14:45.57 | mickeyl | I'm still not sure whether we can use sapwood |
| 14:45.58 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@65.71.224.163) |
| 14:46.01 | mickeyl | since it removes a couple of features |
| 14:46.01 | koen | robtaylor: don't forget to include some geo information |
| 14:46.05 | mickeyl | and only supports 1 channel alpha |
| 14:46.09 | mickeyl | which might be a showstopper |
| 14:46.21 | koen | 1 channel or 1 bit? |
| 14:46.28 | mickeyl | bit :/ |
| 14:46.41 | koen | right |
| 14:46.51 | robtaylor | koen: we wont :) |
| 14:47.53 | robtaylor | koen: oh, that's a nice idea for a dynamic group - people near me :) |
| 14:48.21 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (n=mag@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 14:49.16 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 14:52.04 | koen | robtaylor: I'm still thinking about how to send my position back home in a sane, and cost-friendly way |
| 14:53.20 | robtaylor | koen: what do you mean exactlY? |
| 14:53.32 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 14:54.04 | koen | when I'm on the road and I have my gps + {n800 or moko} on I want to send my position to the server back home |
| 14:54.30 | XorA | koen: SMS |
| 14:54.31 | robtaylor | XorA: naa, data rates are checper than sms |
| 14:54.34 | koen | sms cost €0.20 a piece |
| 14:54.38 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 14:54.40 | koen | gprs is free in .nl |
| 14:54.52 | koen | but outside .nl sms is cheaper |
| 14:54.52 | XorA | koen: even when roaming? |
| 14:55.11 | koen | when roaming gprs is *@($*(@# expensive |
| 14:55.24 | koen | in the neighbourhood of a few pints per mb |
| 14:56.19 | koen | robtaylor: any screenshots of your people thing? |
| 14:56.27 | *** join/#openmoko cprf_ (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 14:56.58 | robtaylor | koen: only the mockup for now |
| 14:57.31 | koen | robtaylor: make it finger friendly on high-dpi screens |
| 14:58.52 | robtaylor | koen: thats the plan :) |
| 14:58.53 | rboehme | counter |
| 14:58.54 | aloril | 5 days 15:01:06 (5.626 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.626 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.626 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 14:59.29 | robtaylor | koen: it should just be a matter of plopping in some different glade |
| 14:59.49 | koen | robtaylor: I hope it doesn't use libpanelapplet |
| 14:59.53 | robtaylor | koen: any idea how fast gdkpixbuf scaling is on a 200Mhz arm? |
| 14:59.59 | robtaylor | koen: hell no |
| 15:00.16 | koen | bluez-gnome does |
| 15:00.31 | koen | a metric ton of crap for a frigging applet |
| 15:01.41 | robtaylor | koen: i've been hearing plans are afoot to sanistise applets |
| 15:01.45 | robtaylor | which'd be nice |
| 15:01.58 | koen | someone hand a neo to davyd |
| 15:02.35 | *** join/#openmoko SuN (i=unices@ip5652ade4.speed.planet.nl) |
| 15:02.44 | XorA | koen: not the one from little britain :-) |
| 15:03.12 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 15:03.34 | SpeedEvil | Is he the only developer in the village? |
| 15:04.48 | NAiL | daffyd? |
| 15:05.40 | jebba | Any plans for rev 2 to have a multitouch display? Check out this video... http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han (I realize this is getting a bit ahead of things, but the capabilities are stunning) |
| 15:07.43 | SpeedEvil | Is that ising chording on the display? |
| 15:08.01 | SpeedEvil | can't do video now |
| 15:08.34 | jebba | SpeedEvil, ya. Here's an mp4 of it (stupidly zipped for some reason): http://ted.streamguys.net/ted_han_j_2006.zip |
| 15:08.49 | koen | XorA: http://davyd.livejournal.com/ :) |
| 15:09.03 | SpeedEvil | I've actually got a chording PDA |
| 15:09.05 | jebba | like pinching & spreading to zoom in and out, etc. (ZUI: zoomable user interface) |
| 15:09.23 | SpeedEvil | microwroter agenda - never got over 6wpm |
| 15:09.36 | jebba | SpeedEvil, which one? does it do the zooming etc? |
| 15:09.41 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 15:10.04 | SpeedEvil | Microwriter agenda - 1990? 256K, 16*4 line display |
| 15:10.33 | SpeedEvil | chording keypad - finger and thumb buttons |
| 15:10.34 | jebba | that's the amazing part for me. On something like moko + gps + maps.... Ah, SpeedEvil, this is quite a different thing. I guess "chording" is something different then. ;) |
| 15:10.44 | Stephmw | jebba: if you know about multitouch, surely you saw Steve Jobs say "And hell have we patented it". I doubt very much _anyone_ will go public with MT alternatives for a few years |
| 15:11.33 | koen | robtaylor: no idea of the speed, but since it's in fp math.... |
| 15:11.37 | jebba | Stephmw, but NYU and others have developed it quite independently of apple. Hell, someone patented double click once or something, right? Does that mean everyone stopped double clicking? |
| 15:11.40 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@82.77.126.134) |
| 15:11.57 | SpeedEvil | It's combinations of fingers to make letters. middle finger alone is o, thumb and two adjacent is r, ... |
| 15:12.03 | Hadaka | fingerworks did multitouch stuff years ago - resizing windows on screen by dragging with two fingers etc. |
| 15:12.06 | robtaylor | koen: oh. poo. |
| 15:12.19 | jebba | plus he can just patent an implementation, not the whole idea (plus pre-existing art and such...) |
| 15:12.41 | koen | robtaylor: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90621 |
| 15:12.56 | jebba | and many countries don't recognize software patents.... |
| 15:13.37 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 15:13.48 | robtaylor | koen: ooh, i'll have a look at that patch |
| 15:13.56 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis_ (n=Miranda@82.77.126.134) |
| 15:13.59 | robtaylor | koen: we should cook up a benchmark |
| 15:14.20 | robtaylor | koen: is that patch in OE? |
| 15:15.02 | Morgreet | jebba: You can't patent an implementation, only the idea/method used by an implementation. Same as you can't copyright an idea/method, only a work, ie. an implementation. |
| 15:15.04 | koen | robtaylor: that patchs needs updating |
| 15:15.11 | koen | robtaylor: which is why it isn't in OE |
| 15:15.37 | koen | robtaylor: I keep posting that link on IRC and to the gnome-performance list, but no results yet |
| 15:16.13 | robtaylor | koen: i'll try take a look at it. There's faster ways of converting doubles to fixed point though |
| 15:16.25 | jebba | anyway, i was more excited about the potential of such a display, not the patent politics of it. If you haven't seen that video or know how it works, i suggest checking it out as it would be an excellent interface for something like a smartphone..... |
| 15:16.50 | koen | robtaylor: did you see http://www.qoheleth.uklinux.net/blog/?p=139 ? |
| 15:17.31 | robtaylor | heh, no, but i know the sqrt hack :) |
| 15:17.56 | robtaylor | its possibly one of my favourites :) |
| 15:19.04 | Stephmw | jebba: iirc NYU have since got chummy with Apple |
| 15:20.13 | SuN | That interface is awesome indeed. |
| 15:22.36 | SuN | And not just fancy, but with a lot of real potential too. |
| 15:31.44 | *** join/#openmoko jahu_ (n=jh@82.119.160.221) |
| 15:47.46 | *** join/#openmoko bkuhn (n=bkuhn@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info) |
| 15:48.28 | *** join/#openmoko bipolar (n=bflong@146.145.26.91) |
| 15:50.36 | Morgreet | $ equery belongs mimencode |
| 15:50.38 | Morgreet | net-mail/metamail-2.7.45.3-r1 (/usr/bin/mimencode) |
| 15:50.56 | Morgreet | Obvious really, I should have guessed that. /sigh |
| 15:51.18 | Morgreet | Oops, wrong channel :P |
| 15:52.03 | Morgreet | Not even the right client or server, lol. |
| 15:52.38 | Morgreet | Too many darn machines here ... |
| 15:53.16 | noidd | heh |
| 15:53.26 | Morgreet | Hiya noidd ... how goes? |
| 15:53.37 | noidd | Not bad, work blows |
| 15:53.43 | noidd | and hey, that even rhymed :-) |
| 15:53.52 | Morgreet | LOL |
| 15:53.54 | noidd | job interview tomorrow at noon. |
| 15:54.05 | Morgreet | GL :-) |
| 15:54.09 | noidd | phone interview even tho the company is 1 block from where I work now. |
| 15:55.16 | noidd | but they have a "secret" location so I have to pretend I have no idea where it is. |
| 15:55.17 | Kaloz | :D |
| 15:55.17 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54876F5E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:55.19 | Morgreet | Well you know how it is with voice-over-air channels, they're so slow, just can't get the air molecules these days. |
| 15:59.07 | xkr47 | :) |
| 15:59.43 | xkr47 | "A study on the impact of smog on f2f communications" |
| 15:59.54 | Morgreet | Hehehe |
| 16:02.09 | Morgreet | Grrrr ... unselectable text in X11 labels, a pet hate of mine. X11 badly needs some of its legacy features fixed. I wonder what the best solution to this would be. |
| 16:04.22 | robtaylor | xkr47: hey :) |
| 16:04.31 | Morgreet | I know it's more a widget-level problem than X11 itself, but finding a server-end solution would fix all apps in one fell swoop. |
| 16:05.16 | robtaylor | Morgreet: umm, that just woudln't be possible |
| 16:05.19 | xkr47 | robtaylor, ?-) |
| 16:05.30 | noidd | I was about to say that :-) |
| 16:05.35 | Morgreet | robtaylor: you're using the "impossible" word .... ;-) |
| 16:05.43 | robtaylor | xkr47: how's your integer samplerate coming on? :) |
| 16:05.44 | Morgreet | Sorry, doesn't parse. |
| 16:05.54 | robtaylor | Morgreet: no i didn;t ;P |
| 16:06.08 | robtaylor | Morgreet: gfraid it just doesnt work like that. fix the toolkit |
| 16:06.40 | xkr47 | robtaylor, I solved it by finding out pulseaudio supported it already, only need some minor tuning to use it by default |
| 16:07.43 | robtaylor | xkr47: oh, yeah. its just nearest-neighbor though, right? |
| 16:07.56 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 16:08.05 | robtaylor | that should be pretty awful quality |
| 16:08.18 | xkr47 | I think it was yeah |
| 16:09.16 | xkr47 | well for 22050 -> 44100 or 48000 I guess it's ok but for 44100 -> 48000 dunno |
| 16:11.25 | robtaylor | yeah, basically it should sound like a spread of non-harmonic tones have been added to the sound |
| 16:11.38 | robtaylor | if i remember my audio theory correctly ;) |
| 16:12.12 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 16:12.34 | Morgreet | robtaylor: I know it doesn't work like that, but the problem is that a widget-end solution is like excavation with a toothpick and brushing back the tide simultaneously. And none of the big apps with their own widget sets would pick it up. |
| 16:15.02 | robtaylor | Morgreet: it should work in most of teh major ones. some apps have particular problems though |
| 16:15.45 | robtaylor | Morgreet: i'm afraid there's no general solution, otherwise it'd have been done by now |
| 16:16.17 | noidd | Not all widget sets render text as text. |
| 16:16.32 | noidd | err, test as visible to the x server |
| 16:17.27 | Morgreet | robtaylor: there are plenty of general solutions, but the "X11 will always remain dumb" fanboys prevent them from happening. There's no reason why there should not be any semantic information asoociated with the graphic backend, possibly in a parallel subsystem. |
| 16:20.47 | robtaylor | Morgreet: but that's involved patching all teh widget sets to use it |
| 16:20.54 | robtaylor | Morgreet: and then you're back at the beginning |
| 16:22.10 | Morgreet | Admittedly, it's a small gripe compared to the biggie though, which is lack of decoupling between X11 and its clients. 200 applications dying terminally because X11 hiccups is ... unprofessional. |
| 16:23.35 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy_ (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 16:25.12 | Morgreet | robtaylor: no need to patch apps at all! Just run a background OCR daemon on the screen every 10 seconds or so to generate text semantic info, easy. |
| 16:29.13 | Morgreet | Think I might do that anyway, even without any further integration. Even just a scrape-and-splurge text app would be helpful. |
| 16:29.56 | Morgreet | Just pop all the OCR'd text from a screen up in xmessage, lol. |
| 16:30.25 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@pjmvpc2rlc3.pjmv.aber.ac.uk) |
| 16:31.09 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-86-98.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
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| 16:39.11 | *** part/#openmoko bryan (n=blarsen@CPE001217be860c-CM00111ae01934.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 16:42.46 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
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| 17:26.13 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@DN800cc506.Stanford.EDU) |
| 17:26.39 | Elrond | counter |
| 17:26.40 | aloril | 5 days 12:33:20 (5.523 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.523 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.523 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 17:27.35 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.141.160) |
| 17:34.17 | xkr47 | does the moko support gprs multislot? if yes, what class? |
| 17:43.12 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-130-055.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 17:45.55 | *** join/#openmoko Ebli1 (n=loki@86.34.3.192) |
| 17:48.00 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:50.12 | *** join/#openmoko MDK (n=mdk@cs181209253.pp.htv.fi) |
| 17:52.08 | noidd | counter |
| 17:52.09 | aloril | 5 days 12:07:51 (5.505 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.505 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.505 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 17:53.40 | *** join/#openmoko rejo1 (n=rejon@adsl-75-5-124-98.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:55.46 | *** join/#openmoko Pookers (n=zcw100@c-69-141-111-38.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 17:56.37 | mickeyl | could we have that counter going in the opposite direction please? |
| 17:56.45 | Clint | you want it to increase? |
| 17:56.48 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 17:57.00 | xkr47 | noidd, :DD |
| 17:57.33 | noidd | haha |
| 17:57.45 | noidd | poor mickeyl, FIC are really getting their moneys worth :-) |
| 17:57.47 | xkr47 | noidd, priv |
| 17:57.51 | noidd | I saw - thanks. |
| 17:58.08 | *** join/#openmoko Mutsgah (n=metz@port495.ds1-hr.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 18:00.59 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:03.17 | prpplague | rtp: uh whats up with oftc? |
| 18:05.26 | rtp | prpplague: try to connect through an other server :) |
| 18:06.26 | prpplague | rtp: irc.oftc.net is the only one i have for oftc |
| 18:06.48 | Clint | it's under attack |
| 18:07.07 | Clint | you can connect to a specific server or over ipv6 |
| 18:07.16 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI_ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 18:07.33 | prpplague | Clint: ahh |
| 18:09.26 | rtp | prpplague: try 131.211.141.245 |
| 18:09.47 | Psi_ | http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/06/1431218 |
| 18:11.15 | Elrond | Is #openmoko also on oftc?! |
| 18:12.09 | prpplague | Elrond: i don't believe so |
| 18:12.23 | Clint | far too many channels are on freenode |
| 18:14.15 | Elrond | Clint - Yep. |
| 18:15.38 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@e179246027.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 18:23.16 | *** join/#openmoko cprf (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 18:27.03 | *** join/#openmoko fghj (n=tkxue@agp.Stanford.EDU) |
| 18:27.17 | fghj | is openmoko building the actual hardware? if not, what phone? if so, how much will it cost, when can I get one? |
| 18:27.46 | zipola | fghj: Look at the links on the topic. |
| 18:27.55 | fghj | which one? |
| 18:27.58 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 18:28.13 | Kero | yo Eludias :) |
| 18:28.21 | Eludias | yo! |
| 18:28.30 | zipola | The 2007 roadmap at least, but the rest of them are also useful. |
| 18:28.39 | zipola | Also, there's some info in Wikipedia. |
| 18:28.42 | fghj | Neo1973? |
| 18:28.47 | fghj | So the phone is Neo1973 + gps? |
| 18:29.34 | fghj | okay |
| 18:29.39 | fghj | how can I get one of theswe free phones? |
| 18:29.41 | fghj | where do I apply? |
| 18:29.54 | fghj | ah; they will go for $350 each |
| 18:30.00 | fghj | but where do I apply for the phase 0 access |
| 18:30.21 | fluffs | that was chosen last week |
| 18:30.31 | CM | counter |
| 18:30.32 | aloril | 5 days 11:29:28 (5.479 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.479 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.479 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 18:30.42 | fghj | it was decided already? |
| 18:31.20 | CM | yes |
| 18:32.10 | fghj | that is okay |
| 18:32.22 | fghj | who should I contact? I have an killer app |
| 18:32.37 | SpeedEvil | Mossad? |
| 18:32.41 | CM | Hehe |
| 18:32.47 | fghj | lol |
| 18:33.45 | fghj | 3-11 <-- so anyone can buy them on this date? |
| 18:33.49 | SpeedEvil | Just wibble on here, add it to the wiki, or the mailing list. |
| 18:33.52 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 18:34.07 | SpeedEvil | With enough money and a credit card. |
| 18:34.29 | koen | The idea was that people that have proven to be usefull get phase 0, other developers can buy phase 1 and mere mortals phase 2 |
| 18:34.54 | fghj | dumb question |
| 18:35.01 | fghj | so if this is just a neo1973 + gps |
| 18:35.07 | fghj | how does openmoko make money? |
| 18:35.12 | SpeedEvil | it doesn't. |
| 18:35.12 | fghj | I read somewhere this is a company |
| 18:35.14 | SpeedEvil | Directly. |
| 18:35.18 | fghj | not just an open source projcct is it? |
| 18:35.19 | *** join/#openmoko Matt_PI__ (n=chatzill@209.198.66.141) |
| 18:35.21 | SpeedEvil | FIC is the company selliong the neo. |
| 18:35.30 | fghj | FIC == openmoko? |
| 18:35.33 | SpeedEvil | OpenMoko is the open source project developing the OS. |
| 18:35.44 | SpeedEvil | Well - software. |
| 18:35.50 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 18:35.54 | koen | openmoko is a spin-off company from FIC |
| 18:36.06 | SpeedEvil | Something like that. |
| 18:36.18 | SpeedEvil | Think of it like redhat. |
| 18:36.55 | fghj | dumb question |
| 18:36.58 | fghj | whyh something like X |
| 18:37.00 | fghj | rather than directfb |
| 18:37.05 | SpeedEvil | Because it makes easier development. |
| 18:37.06 | fghj | ? |
| 18:37.12 | SpeedEvil | Tehre is lots of existing software. |
| 18:37.18 | SpeedEvil | The hardware is well capable of X. |
| 18:37.29 | SpeedEvil | I've run X complel,tey happily on 486/75. |
| 18:37.34 | SpeedEvil | with 16M. |
| 18:37.48 | SpeedEvil | The neo is several times faster, with lots more memory. |
| 18:37.57 | raynet | SpeedEvil: pleh, X runs happily on 386SX with 8MB |
| 18:37.57 | fluffs | I remember when we thought that a 486 was _luxury_ |
| 18:38.01 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 18:38.03 | fghj | is there an emulator for this out right now? |
| 18:38.05 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: did yor computer had the same display resolution/color depth? |
| 18:38.09 | SpeedEvil | I've used it on a 386/20. |
| 18:38.12 | SpeedEvil | Actually, yes. |
| 18:38.18 | koen | i960 with 4mb |
| 18:38.20 | fghj | how can I get access to it? |
| 18:38.25 | SpeedEvil | the 486/75 was a laptop with a 16 bit video card. |
| 18:38.35 | fghj | (the emulator) |
| 18:38.58 | koen | start xnest or xoo with a 480x640 window |
| 18:39.05 | koen | tada! an emulator |
| 18:39.07 | SpeedEvil | Emulation is in many ways less useful for this platform. |
| 18:39.27 | SpeedEvil | the main problem is lack of a touchscreen with adequte DPI (300) to play on with. |
| 18:39.33 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=sajt@3e70d936.adsl.enternet.hu) |
| 18:39.39 | fghj | seems like I am stuck ina chicken/egg problem |
| 18:39.41 | SpeedEvil | Well - a main problem. |
| 18:39.41 | fghj | how do Icontribute without access |
| 18:39.47 | fghj | how do I get access before contributing? |
| 18:39.50 | SpeedEvil | Wait several days, get sources. |
| 18:39.51 | koen | heh |
| 18:39.54 | raynet | the most important application to be ported for Openmoko is MAME and SIDplay. This way i dont have to buy a portable game console or ipod for music |
| 18:39.59 | koen | why do you need access before contributing? |
| 18:40.06 | SpeedEvil | Most of it runs happily on a 'conventional' compuuter. |
| 18:40.18 | dottedmag | SpeedEvil: well, it's the heaven compared to the usual 'embedded' development :) |
| 18:40.26 | SpeedEvil | Oh - indeed |
| 18:40.37 | koen | you know you can use X, gtk+ or SDL |
| 18:40.43 | *** join/#openmoko shwag (n=steven@static-71-165-111-2.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 18:40.58 | SpeedEvil | I mean, being able to proto something on your desktop, and have no code changes at all, just a crosscompilation is awesome. |
| 18:41.58 | koen | dottedmag: this afternoon 'embedded' was defined as 'something you can't play games on' |
| 18:41.59 | koen | I had to object to that :) |
| 18:41.59 | dottedmag | :] |
| 18:42.00 | SpeedEvil | IMO, embedded is "output peripherals wash clothes, not amuse the user". |
| 18:42.00 | jebba | fghj, you can't contribute until you read up a bit... You can spend the few days setting up a build environment while waiting.... |
| 18:42.00 | *** join/#openmoko Odin- (n=odin@s121-302.gardur.hi.is) |
| 18:42.01 | koen | SpeedEvil: It's amazing how little people realize that |
| 18:42.52 | SpeedEvil | Though the other day, I was considering if there was any game I could add to a flashlight controller, with one button, and one LED. |
| 18:42.53 | fghj | wait wait; phone has no builtin camera? |
| 18:42.56 | raynet | SpeedEvil: sounds like symbian devtools with hooks to windows apis for "emulation" |
| 18:42.59 | SpeedEvil | No, no camera/wifi |
| 18:43.09 | fghj | ouch |
| 18:43.16 | SpeedEvil | Maybe v2. |
| 18:43.38 | SpeedEvil | Also, the V2 will have a rocket engine capable of suborbital flight. |
| 18:43.39 | gabaug | fghj: all the specs and endless discussion of features are on the website/mailing list |
| 18:43.42 | SpeedEvil | (joke) |
| 18:43.44 | koen | "see topic" |
| 18:43.53 | fghj | it'll obe powered by cold fusion too right? |
| 18:43.57 | fluffs | SpeedEvil: you forgot the Asgaard Transporter Array |
| 18:44.08 | fghj | is there a website for fic? fic 1973 brings u plot sof openmoko stuff but no company site |
| 18:44.35 | koen | google it |
| 18:44.48 | Clint | it's fic neo1973 |
| 18:45.03 | koen | when I google for 'fic' it's the top link |
| 18:48.10 | koen | does it hurt to google? |
| 18:48.21 | koen | it seems that a lot of people are afraid to use it |
| 18:48.26 | fghj | found it; thanks :-) |
| 18:48.52 | fluffs | yes, google secrelty make your monitor emit death-rays |
| 18:49.20 | koen | ah |
| 18:49.21 | koen | that's why nico isn't affected |
| 18:51.28 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.133.125) |
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| 19:39.36 | buz | can we use LUKS on neo? |
| 19:39.44 | buz | should be able to right? |
| 19:41.43 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@DN800cc508.Stanford.EDU) |
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| 19:49.27 | buz | dmcrypt phones would be a killer feature for everyone cheating on his SO |
| 19:49.42 | SpeedEvil | The problem. |
| 19:49.48 | SpeedEvil | GPRS sucks for VOIP. |
| 19:50.05 | SpeedEvil | It typically has latency bad enough to make the only option push-talk operation. |
| 19:50.06 | xkr47 | use GSM modem :D |
| 19:50.20 | SpeedEvil | GSM-GSM data calls make it easily possible. |
| 19:50.25 | Stephmw | GPRS is also unreliable for sustained comms |
| 19:50.31 | xkr47 | does neo support gsm data ? |
| 19:50.31 | SpeedEvil | Though in some places few carriers support it. |
| 19:50.35 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 19:50.38 | buz | dmcrypt is not for crypt VOIP |
| 19:50.39 | SpeedEvil | Carriers may not. |
| 19:50.42 | buz | it's for crypt STORAGE |
| 19:51.02 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 19:52.31 | buz | if your SO is snooping GSM traffic, you got bigger things to worry about |
| 19:52.32 | SpeedEvil | crypto on the phone storage may mean that you can't do video - for example, not enough CPU. |
| 19:52.33 | buz | you can always have multiple partitions |
| 19:52.33 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 19:52.34 | buz | and you probably WILL have |
| 19:52.34 | SpeedEvil | Again, true. |
| 19:52.34 | buz | especially if your a windows user, you will likely not have much fun with ext2 |
| 19:52.35 | buz | but using FAT for system storage, i dont think so |
| 19:53.06 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: oh, I dunno, DRMd video/sound works ok getting decrypted on the fly |
| 19:53.06 | buz | needs even more cpu |
| 19:53.07 | SpeedEvil | However, the CPU is limited. |
| 19:53.11 | SpeedEvil | very limited. |
| 19:53.28 | buz | for all practical purposes, think of an original pentium |
| 19:53.31 | buz | without FPU |
| 19:54.17 | SpeedEvil | Uf you're willing to live with USB1.1, then you can probably pretend to be a network adaptor and do SAMBA. |
| 19:54.24 | SpeedEvil | On the filesystem. |
| 19:54.39 | buz | kinda pointless to watch video on a 2,8inch screen next to a real machine |
| 19:54.51 | buz | oh |
| 19:54.56 | buz | you mean the other way round |
| 19:54.59 | buz | yeah you could do that |
| 19:55.09 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - so the windows machine can mount it as a share. |
| 19:55.21 | buz | somehow, i feel that's way over the top for must users |
| 19:55.28 | buz | top of their head that is |
| 19:55.31 | SpeedEvil | I dunno. |
| 19:55.43 | buz | besides, SMB is a bitch |
| 19:55.55 | SpeedEvil | A large number of options is a plus. |
| 19:56.06 | buz | i've been using samba for 8 years now and it still occasionally leaves me dumbfounded |
| 19:59.31 | buz | yeah, basket 1.0 sure is getting impressive |
| 19:59.36 | buz | i really want that on my phone |
| 19:59.54 | buz | i can see me running kde on a phone now |
| 20:00.27 | SpeedEvil | basket? |
| 20:00.44 | buz | basket.kde.org |
| 20:00.49 | *** join/#openmoko theike01 (n=istuart@67-131-153-130.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 20:00.56 | buz | like onenote, but actually useful |
| 20:01.20 | buz | i generally treat it like clipboard on a LOT of steroids but it would be so much more |
| 20:01.20 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 20:03.58 | CM | buz: Wow, looks way too complicated for me! (Guess what DE I use.. ;) |
| 20:04.21 | buz | not really complicated |
| 20:04.37 | buz | doesnt really get much easier than hitting ctrl-shift-v to paste stuff into it ;) |
| 20:05.09 | buz | in some ways its a wiki but living in a tree |
| 20:05.12 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@hamidnz-nb.Stanford.EDU) |
| 20:05.43 | CM | It looks just like that, yes |
| 20:05.43 | SpeedEvil | sylvian-wiki! |
| 20:06.01 | buz | hu? |
| 20:06.14 | buz | i use it like some people use the desktop |
| 20:06.21 | buz | a big pile of near-trash stuff |
| 20:06.40 | buz | (i never actually see my desktop, so that one isnt useful at all to me) |
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| 20:42.33 | Morgreet | http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311 |
| 20:42.42 | Morgreet | Nice graphs :P |
| 20:45.03 | markit | Morgreet: really |
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| 21:09.55 | buz | i think thats really old |
| 21:09.58 | buz | have seen that years ago |
| 21:10.29 | buz | one would think windows comes from italy, spaghetti and all that |
| 21:10.45 | buz | (cue the pasta is from china comment) |
| 21:11.11 | Clint | pasta is from croatia |
| 21:11.37 | buz | now that is a new angle |
| 21:11.45 | Clint | i win |
| 21:12.00 | SpeedEvil | Pasta came from god. |
| 21:12.09 | Clint | mmm... ramen |
| 21:12.15 | buz | SpeedEvil: you're confusing that with beer |
| 21:12.20 | SpeedEvil | FSM. |
| 21:12.57 | buz | oh yeha right, beer comes from volcanoes |
| 21:14.29 | prpplague | "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin |
| 21:14.59 | buz | "God gave Irish Whisky to keep them from taking over the World" |
| 21:15.13 | hrw | cu |
| 21:17.23 | buz | it's sad really, the headphone out of my laptop doesnt really have any white noise at all but the shuffle has tons of it |
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| 22:09.17 | spikebik1 | counter |
| 22:09.17 | aloril | 5 days 07:50:42 (5.327 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 5 days (33.327 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 5 days (217.327 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info |
| 22:12.15 | *** join/#openmoko _rob (n=rob@AC9EA7B1.ipt.aol.com) |
| 22:14.16 | Morgreet | So, anyone got any great ideas for killer apps? Preferably not the Mossad kind ... ;-) |
| 22:14.30 | thedaniel | haha |
| 22:14.50 | thedaniel | unfortunately all i've been coming up with have been the obvious sorts of things |
| 22:14.54 | Morgreet | (Was SpeedEvil's joke, not mine :-) |
| 22:15.02 | Morgreet | Yeah, me too |
| 22:15.03 | thedaniel | that exist or partway exist in PDA land or GPS land already |
| 22:15.16 | thedaniel | someone on the list had a good idea for location-based profiles |
| 22:15.28 | unknown_lamer | I'm porting emacs |
| 22:15.38 | thedaniel | "block all calls from work when i am at home, turn ringer off while at office" |
| 22:15.40 | thedaniel | detected by gps |
| 22:16.31 | Morgreet | unknown_lamer: using any editor on this thing is going to be real hard. |
| 22:16.31 | LoRez | while moving at car-type velocities, ring louder and vibrate |
| 22:16.42 | unknown_lamer | Morgreet: depends on the XIM |
| 22:17.02 | buz | not really, you can use an usb keyboard for one |
| 22:17.28 | unknown_lamer | Morgreet: I'm also more interesting in emacs for planner, gnus, bbdb, emms, jabber, ... |
| 22:17.34 | unknown_lamer | interested rather |
| 22:17.46 | Morgreet | thedaniel: true enough ... maybe we don't need an actual *killer app* ... but instead, we can give exiting normal apps some killer functionality that other phones don't have. |
| 22:18.06 | Morgreet | s/exiting/existing/ |
| 22:18.06 | unknown_lamer | I'm in the process of getting an elisp implementation of dbus done |
| 22:18.20 | unknown_lamer | (naturally needing emacs22 with the new network functions) |
| 22:18.45 | Morgreet | unknown_lamer: is elisp usable for scripting outside of emacs too? |
| 22:18.45 | SpeedEvil | killer app is different for each user. |
| 22:18.58 | unknown_lamer | Morgreet: no elisp sucks |
| 22:19.03 | unknown_lamer | Morgreet: for outside of emacs there is guile |
| 22:19.08 | unknown_lamer | which I am also porting |
| 22:19.20 | unknown_lamer | not really porting since gnome-guile works with gpe already |
| 22:19.30 | unknown_lamer | if there are .defs files for the OpenMoko stuff I have automagic bindings :-) |
| 22:19.42 | Morgreet | Oh I'm not tied to LISP, I'll use any language no probs. But if elisp were usable, I'd want to know. |
| 22:20.03 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 22:20.10 | unknown_lamer | elisp is an ok language, but it's a dinky early 80s style lisp dialect |
| 22:20.20 | Morgreet | I'll stick with the normal scripting languages then. |
| 22:20.34 | unknown_lamer | guile is fairly nice and doesn't use much memory |
| 22:20.35 | Morgreet | Or Lua, which will rock on a phone as it's so efficient. |
| 22:21.36 | Morgreet | Lua is prolly the best of the crop of alternative scripting languages atm. |
| 22:21.43 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague^2 (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 22:21.55 | unknown_lamer | what would be nice is a portable scripting host |
| 22:22.18 | Morgreet | ? |
| 22:22.25 | unknown_lamer | export objects + methods with support for a few portable types |
| 22:22.39 | unknown_lamer | and then glue to allow scheme, lua, etc. to access that |
| 22:22.47 | unknown_lamer | (like the gnustep steptalk) |
| 22:23.03 | Morgreet | unknown_lamer: hey, that portable scripting host is called C :P |
| 22:23.12 | unknown_lamer | No it requires recompilation |
| 22:23.21 | Morgreet | Sure, but it;s the host. |
| 22:23.41 | Morgreet | Use the scripting languages that it hosts for non-compiled stuff :P |
| 22:24.23 | *** join/#openmoko bpl (n=blarsen@206-248-190-98.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 22:24.26 | Morgreet | You don't get any more of a lingua franca than C. There is no other. Unix is actually the O/S of C. |
| 22:24.35 | unknown_lamer | it could be done on top of dbus if it is fast enough |
| 22:24.40 | unknown_lamer | or gdo if it is lightweight enough |
| 22:24.50 | unknown_lamer | readapt the existing steptalk stuff and then get smalltalk and guile for free |
| 22:25.11 | Morgreet | I sure hope dbus takes off more. We've badly missed a middleware bus, could do amazing stuff with it. |
| 22:25.47 | Morgreet | Dbus is to general O/S comms what Jack is to FOSS audio. |
| 22:28.55 | unknown_lamer | I'm hoping to have clim running on the phone by the end of the year |
| 22:29.13 | unknown_lamer | 128M of RAM makes CL feasible (hooray) |
| 22:29.53 | SpeedEvil | 128M makes firefox possible :) |
| 22:30.06 | SpeedEvil | (silly, but possible) |
| 22:30.43 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 22:31.25 | SpeedEvil | Actually - the extension mousegestures - which I'm using now would actually make it pretty easy to use. |
| 22:32.14 | Morgreet | Do we have any cut-down Gecko-based browsers in FOSS land? I'm starting to find Moz+FF bloat tiresome. |
| 22:32.25 | unknown_lamer | galeon is ok |
| 22:32.40 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 22:32.47 | unknown_lamer | firefox annoys me |
| 22:32.48 | Morgreet | That's "cut down"? |
| 22:33.02 | unknown_lamer | it uses less memory and is much more responsive than ff |
| 22:33.09 | unknown_lamer | I have issues with the ff ui on my dual athlonmp workstation |
| 22:33.19 | SpeedEvil | If only it wouldn't leak, it/d be ok. |
| 22:33.20 | Morgreet | OK, grabbing Galeon to try. Cheers |
| 22:33.37 | Jeroen | I switched to ff because galeon annoyed me... |
| 22:34.18 | Morgreet | Emerging galeon |
| 22:34.24 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:34.28 | Jeroen | especially the features that disappeared release after release |
| 22:35.06 | buz | sounds like a real gnome app ;) |
| 22:35.11 | Morgreet | I'm happy with features disappearing. If I want features, I'll use the bloaty FF+Moz :P |
| 22:35.22 | buz | konqui foreva |
| 22:35.29 | unknown_lamer | I |
| 22:35.34 | unknown_lamer | 've been using emacs-w3m lately |
| 22:35.44 | unknown_lamer | with a key bound to pop up a galeon window when I care about javascript and css |
| 22:36.20 | Morgreet | buz: not tried Konq either, as I don't run any desktop here, let alone KDE. |
| 22:36.27 | buz | uhm |
| 22:36.35 | buz | you dont need to run kde for konqui |
| 22:36.40 | Morgreet | Desktops are just a hindrance. |
| 22:36.46 | buz | you do need some kde libs though |
| 22:38.10 | Morgreet | Galeon is still emerging on the beast of a server ... so I don't think it's all thaat "cut down". |
| 22:38.26 | buz | if it has to compile gecko, it will take a while |
| 22:39.25 | Morgreet | Gecko doesn't seem to be in a library, That's odd |
| 22:39.55 | Elrond | Hi Morgreet! |
| 22:40.17 | Morgreet | Hi El, how's it going? |
| 22:42.40 | Elrond | Good. :-) |
| 22:43.24 | Elrond | And you? |
| 22:44.25 | Morgreet | Fine ta, just trying out Galeon, in my quest for less bloat than FF/Moz. |
| 22:46.32 | jebba | Morgreet, epiphany. (you may be able to compile it to use gtkhtml or gecko, i can't remember). Or dillo, but that's really minimal.... |
| 22:47.11 | Morgreet | jebba: cheers, looking up both |
| 22:47.15 | jebba | there's minimo too (unmaintained, i think) and konq-e ("konqueror-embedded"), but i think that's unmaintained as well. |
| 22:48.25 | Morgreet | Oh, epiphany is based on Cairo/Glitz ... I'll give that a go. |
| 22:48.48 | *** join/#openmoko blarsen (n=blarsen@206-248-190-98.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 22:49.54 | Elrond | How are browsers on normal smartphones? |
| 22:50.27 | Morgreet | You mean slowphones? ;-) |
| 22:50.50 | Elrond | Yep. |
| 22:51.25 | Elrond | Those, where you need to go into five submenus to answer a call. ;o) |
| 22:51.49 | jannu | the new browser on the nokia s60 phones is pretty good |
| 22:52.07 | Morgreet | Dunno. I've got the original smartphone, Nokia Communicator ... that was limited by comms bandwidth, so appeared fast. |
| 22:52.12 | jannu | when compared to other phone/pda browsers that is |
| 22:53.04 | Elrond | Do they support all the whistles and bangs of the big browsers? |
| 22:53.24 | jannu | plus, it's based on webkit/khtml |
| 22:54.08 | jannu | but honestly, web browsing on a phone-sized device is pure s/m |
| 22:54.33 | jannu | no matter what kind of browser you put in |
| 22:54.57 | Elrond | jannu - That explains a lot. ;o) It's probably cheaper than normal s/m ;o) |
| 22:55.32 | jannu | Elrond: actually, with current data traffic prices I'd daresay it isn't |
| 22:55.41 | Morgreet | Well at least on an open phone there will be no Bondage ;-))) |
| 22:56.46 | jannu | that's one of the problems of an open platform |
| 22:56.48 | buz | Morgreet: i thought the hole was for some kind of strap.... |
| 22:56.56 | jannu | you're always in control |
| 22:57.00 | Morgreet | buz: hahaha |
| 22:57.00 | Elrond | Morgreet - We should stop here, or are we sure, that everyone here is over 21? ;o) |
| 22:57.32 | buz | 21 or not, everyone using irc has seen more than enough in his time on the net ;) |
| 22:57.46 | Morgreet | Elrond: hey, sex is only a problem for older people, the youngsters have never had a problem with it ... |
| 22:58.29 | buz | Morgreet: please hand in your geek card at the exit |
| 22:58.36 | Morgreet | buz: hehehe |
| 22:58.40 | jannu | so sex on the phone. killer app for the younger audience |
| 22:58.54 | buz | would need a cam |
| 22:58.59 | buz | so they can film their adventures |
| 22:59.01 | Morgreet | jannu: yep, could be. Got any good sex-related killer app ideas? |
| 22:59.15 | jannu | well, it vibrates... |
| 22:59.17 | buz | oh i think the gps could come in handy |
| 22:59.40 | buz | girls dont want phones that big |
| 22:59.42 | Elrond | buz - That idea already is old. |
| 22:59.52 | Elrond | (the gps one) |
| 22:59.57 | Morgreet | Hmmm ... well, if we interface some USB vibrating peripheral to it, that might work. |
| 23:00.11 | buz | there are bluetooth controleld vibrators |
| 23:00.32 | buz | saw one on el reg a while back |
| 23:00.36 | Morgreet | buz: oh, ios is the control spec open? |
| 23:00.39 | jannu | the USB port is unpowered |
| 23:00.43 | jannu | afaik |
| 23:00.47 | buz | no idea |
| 23:00.53 | buz | cant possibly be hard to control |
| 23:01.08 | Morgreet | True, but the peripheral itself should be powered I assume, ie. battery for motor. |
| 23:01.27 | buz | seems like there would be ample room for batteries |
| 23:01.56 | jannu | that's an option yes. althoughu most usb stuff seems to assume that all power comes over the wire |
| 23:02.09 | Morgreet | It would probably be self-powered anyway so that it can work standalone. Makes sense market-wise. |
| 23:02.29 | buz | still not entirely sure who would buy it though |
| 23:02.43 | Morgreet | That's for USB. Obviously the Bluetooth ones would be self-powered. |
| 23:03.06 | jannu | Although the number of people doing sex-related things near a computer is likely to be quite high |
| 23:03.09 | Elrond | power-over-BT? ;o) |
| 23:03.27 | buz | jannu: yes, but most of them need the opposite of it i guess |
| 23:03.29 | Morgreet | buz: yeah, I'm not sure who would buy it. After all, almost nobody has any interest in sex. |
| 23:03.30 | Morgreet | :P |
| 23:03.41 | jannu | Oh. That's sexist |
| 23:03.56 | buz | i prefer to call it realist |
| 23:04.02 | jannu | same thing |
| 23:04.12 | buz | yeah mostly true |
| 23:04.30 | buz | (if it wasnt, nobody would mind sexism) |
| 23:05.17 | Morgreet | If the Neo became known as a phone that could control your Bluetooth vibrator .... I suspects that its market would EXPLODE. |
| 23:05.40 | buz | or it might collapse "Dude that's so gay" |
| 23:05.53 | Elrond | *lol* |
| 23:05.55 | b_lindeijer | I think Microsoft's success is based on sex. And probably the same for VHS and soon, HD-DVD. |
| 23:06.13 | buz | uhm how does MS relate to sex exactly? |
| 23:06.28 | buz | (aside of the fact that you get fucked over when you run windows) |
| 23:06.33 | b_lindeijer | :P |
| 23:06.46 | jannu | buz: exactly |
| 23:06.47 | b_lindeijer | Well MSN has the most chicks on it, and most porn sites only work on Windows. |
| 23:07.06 | jannu | ms has fucked over more people than any other company in the world |
| 23:07.25 | jannu | ms owns sex |
| 23:07.53 | Morgreet | And it would give rise to all manner of office jokes whenever the secretary seems distracted ... |
| 23:08.51 | b_lindeijer | Alright now all we need is Bluetooth vibrators. |
| 23:10.04 | buz | how about google http://www.thetoy.co.uk/ |
| 23:12.04 | buz | Monday morning - she leaves with The Toy inside... |
| 23:12.04 | buz | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:12.10 | buz | i want some of what those guys are smoking |
| 23:12.28 | b_lindeijer | Ok interesting stuff. |
| 23:12.45 | jannu | buz: welcome to the wonderful world of advertising |
| 23:13.08 | buz | yeah they smoke a lot there ;) |
| 23:14.20 | Morgreet | This actually sounds like a viable business plan. FIC would (I assume) never market the phone on such a basis, but 3rd parties could easily do so. And they could have a mega-seller on their hands. |
| 23:16.01 | Elrond | Morgreet - *lol* ;) |
| 23:16.23 | buz | Morgreet must live in the wonderful world of advertising too |
| 23:17.29 | buz | anyway, night |
| 23:18.56 | Elrond | buz - Night. |
| 23:19.37 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:21.19 | Psi_ | do LiPo batterys explode if you discharge them past their min V level? or does it just damage them? |
| 23:22.37 | Elrond | What are LiPo batterys? I hope the neo does not come with tsomething dangerous like that? |
| 23:23.18 | *** part/#openmoko blarsen (n=blarsen@206-248-190-98.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 23:23.46 | Psi_ | lithium polymer |
| 23:24.25 | Psi_ | and, all modern cellphones come with lithium based batterys |
| 23:30.41 | *** join/#openmoko Morgreet (n=morgaine@cpc1-hem13-0-0-cust961.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 23:31.44 | Morgreet | Is there a chat log somewhere? |
| 23:36.27 | Elrond | Morgreet - You mean outside the no such agency? ;o) |
| 23:36.31 | *** join/#openmoko jtoy (n=jtoy@mail.backchannelmedia.com) |
| 23:38.17 | Morgreet | Elrond: yeah. Looking at their logs probably wouldn't go down well. |
| 23:38.23 | *** join/#openmoko daxxar_ (i=daxxar@daxxar.com) |
| 23:42.32 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@dsl093-060-111.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:49.35 | rwhitby | Morgreet: you looking for logs of this channel? |
| 23:49.58 | Morgreet | Yeah |
| 23:50.23 | rwhitby | http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt |
| 23:50.33 | Morgreet | Thanks Rod |
| 23:50.35 | rwhitby | http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko-prev.txt for the 24 hours before that. |
| 23:50.46 | rwhitby | http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko/ for the archive |
| 23:50.55 | Morgreet | Super |
| 23:51.03 | rwhitby | I use it every morning :-) |
| 23:52.06 | rwhitby | (being 12 hours out of sync with most of the discussion here) |
| 23:52.51 | Morgreet | Hehe. Well NTL isn't the most robust of services, so I get disconnected occasionally. Just now though, I assume that was related to the root nameservers attack ... not directly, but NTL prolly kicked the bucket indirectly. |
| 23:53.46 | Elrond | Huh, root nameservers attack? |
| 23:53.55 | Morgreet | Yeah, see Slashdot |
| 23:57.09 | Elrond | Huh. Hmpf. |