| 00:04.13 | yacc | esden: Well, it's not that bad, it's just that one should use the right tools for stuff like that. |
| 00:15.26 | yacc | esden: Let's say I'm not the biggest fan of writing stuff in C I admit ;) |
| 00:15.40 | esden | hehe ... ok .. ;) |
| 00:15.45 | yacc | esden: sometimes it's unavoidable, but usually it's just lost developer time. |
| 00:15.51 | esden | I would also not write that stuff in C I think |
| 00:16.30 | esden | yacc: I currently write everything that I write for embedded systems in C |
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| 00:16.53 | yacc | Especially, as my favorite "P" can beat even C++ for lowlevel binary data import, if done right ;) |
| 00:17.33 | esden | hehe ... |
| 00:18.11 | esden | my life goal is to bring something considered more obscure to the embedded world ... ;) |
| 00:18.19 | yacc | esden: Well, I did that once for an customer, but I admit that these were not exactly embedded systems ;) |
| 00:18.41 | yacc | esden: What is more obscure? *g* |
| 00:18.49 | esden | lisp ;) |
| 00:19.45 | yacc | Oh, that's not so hard. Lisp is an old language, I'd say there should be tons of "Optimize Lisp" papers lying around ;) |
| 00:19.47 | esden | I fell in love with that language ... it is so enlightening to code in that language ... you form the code not the code forces you to form your ideas in a special way |
| 00:20.00 | esden | yacc: yes that is right |
| 00:20.23 | esden | yacc: there is an embedded implementation already ... hedgehog ... but I have to admit that I do not really like the implementation |
| 00:20.42 | esden | what would be really amazing is to get the sbcl implementation running on arm |
| 00:20.57 | esden | but I think that thing is just too big |
| 00:21.10 | esden | the advantage is that it is a real compiler |
| 00:21.25 | esden | not an interpreter or bytecode interpreter |
| 00:21.44 | esden | perhups something from the scheme world will fit the application |
| 00:21.57 | esden | but I have not investigated there yet |
| 00:22.11 | esden | I only had a look at the Common Lisp camp |
| 00:22.59 | yacc | Well, language design is an art form. It's hard to know the important pieces (for the feel and productivity of a system) without some experience ;( |
| 00:23.04 | esden | but I can imagine that scheme will be a better choice because the language is smaller ... what leads to a smaller implementation and smaller is better for embedded |
| 00:25.09 | esden | yes ... and I think that I am too stupid to create my own language ... that is why I would like to port something existing to the system ... but it has to have a running and usable REPL ... otherwise it will miss half of the beauty of working with a real dynamic language lisp is ;) |
| 00:25.10 | yacc | Yes, I'd say schema might be a better choice. CL tends to be a little bit heavy-weight. |
| 00:25.26 | yacc | Although, squeak on a handheld might be fun too :) |
| 00:26.05 | esden | sure ... ;) |
| 00:26.25 | esden | smalltalk is still on my tolearn list ... |
| 00:26.41 | yacc | Well, what languages do you know already? |
| 00:26.53 | yacc | Objective-C? Python? Ruby? |
| 00:27.50 | esden | humm ... c, c++, perl, ruby, objective-c, some assemblers, bash shell, pascal, delphi, common lisp (only basics) and a little bit sheme |
| 00:28.17 | esden | I do not know what I missed in the list |
| 00:28.22 | esden | yacc: and you? |
| 00:29.54 | yacc | Well, Smalltalk is basically Ruby ;) |
| 00:30.08 | esden | ahh right ... I also know java (I hate it that is why I forgot it) and abap (terrible language I do not want to code that never again) |
| 00:30.23 | yacc | Well, Ruby does have a little bit different syntax, a different library, but the runtime/object model is mostly Smalltalk. |
| 00:30.36 | esden | yacc: wow that is cool |
| 00:31.23 | esden | yacc: I read about it that ruby borrowed many things from smalltalk ... I also found many borrowed things from lisp ... |
| 00:31.49 | esden | that is why ruby is the second behind lisp in my list of favorite languages ;) |
| 00:31.50 | yacc | Single inheritance, late-runtime-binding by name, (selectors with : showing the argument places), a special syntax for blocks (Ruby has them simplified a bit with the yield stuff), ... |
| 00:33.14 | yacc | classes are always open in smalltalk. |
| 00:33.40 | yacc | So basically, Ruby is a modern take on Smalltalk with Perlish syntax *iieck* |
| 00:34.21 | esden | lol |
| 00:34.27 | yacc | esden: another way to triangle Smalltalk is Objective-C == C with tacked on Smalltalk runtime? |
| 00:34.50 | yacc | although objc does miss garbage collection. |
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| 00:35.03 | esden | yacc: not anymore *G* |
| 00:35.34 | esden | yacc: apple added garbage collection to Obj-C in the Obj-C 2 system |
| 00:36.10 | yacc | That's nice, but I don't have an Mac. Which is funny, because I work at a company where Macs are the standard fare. |
| 00:36.13 | esden | they have it in the new XCode for leopard |
| 00:37.40 | esden | I am pretty much looking forward to get my fingers on the new Obj-C and test the GC ;) ... I really ask myself what or who did they kill to get the GC in place ;) |
| 00:38.26 | esden | yacc: that is a pity ... macs are so nice *G* |
| 00:39.09 | esden | yacc: I would say take handbrake it is doing it right ... but AFAIK it only runs on a mac ;) |
| 00:39.15 | yacc | esden: It's even uglier, my MSI S260 laptop in white looks like a Mac, (I didn't intend that effect, I bought it because it was a reasonable priced 12" subnotebook). |
| 00:39.33 | esden | rofl! |
| 00:39.44 | esden | that is what I call motivation ;) |
| 00:40.02 | yacc | OTOH, I've never been to the office, so nobody has seen my laptop :) |
| 00:40.18 | yacc | Commuting to california doesn't sound like fun ;) |
| 00:40.18 | esden | hehe .. I think it is better this way ;) |
| 00:42.37 | esden | why? |
| 00:43.12 | yacc | Well, my current "customer" is located in California. |
| 00:44.22 | esden | ohh .. I see |
| 00:44.59 | esden | I think it would be not such a big problem to get a mac then ;) |
| 00:45.31 | esden | on every current mac you have the words "designed in california" then you can get one from the source *G* |
| 00:46.09 | yacc | Well, I don't work for Apple. Just at a place with a number of Hollywood oldhands. |
| 00:48.50 | esden | hehe ... I did not even think that you work for Apple ... I think they would not leave you a choice what laptop to have ;) |
| 00:50.56 | esden | urgh ... scsh is over 3Mb big ... in the compressed form ... that is big |
| 00:52.06 | yacc | esden: As a contractor it's my own choice, and my own money ;) |
| 00:52.44 | esden | as a contractor you sign contracts ... they could require it from you in the contract ... ;) |
| 00:53.53 | yacc | esden: Well, they could require something that requires using a Mac ;) |
| 00:54.26 | yacc | esden: In practice, and especially in Germany, customers tend to refrain from specifying anything beyond the minimum required. |
| 00:54.46 | esden | yacc: yes they could ;) |
| 00:54.58 | yacc | "Scheinselbstständigkeit" is the thing they try to avoid like the devil holy water ;) |
| 00:55.42 | esden | yes ... I know ;) |
| 00:56.03 | yacc | esden: but yes, they can require something that implies using a Mac. Although I usually managed to develop stuff on Linux and test it only say on Windows ;) |
| 00:56.34 | esden | I often write software on my mac that lateron is used on windows for the rest of its life |
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| 03:07.30 | djlosch | i know there are probably a million people asking, but how might i obtain a neo? i'm a dev with a ton of ideas (and some concepts already written out) |
| 03:08.03 | djlosch | i currently have the motorola a1200 ming, but motorola EZX is pretty nasty in openness |
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| 05:51.02 | aloril | Battery powered USB hub: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ |
| 05:52.27 | aloril | I wonder if this could be used to charge and also to connect any USB device (if later, then could get camera, external keyboard (twiddler for example), wifi, bluetooth, card reader, external hard disk, etc...) |
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| 11:26.10 | mjr | among the things I'd like to see is a cheap ready-built battery-powered usb power injector on the store shelves |
| 11:37.57 | daurnimator | something that has its own battery |
| 11:38.28 | gamin | it can act in both device mode and host mode. as device it can connect i.e. to a pc |
| 11:38.43 | gamin | w/o any additional battery of course |
| 11:38.51 | yacc | Well, what about memory sticks? |
| 11:39.10 | mjr | they do generally require power to operate, no? |
| 11:39.51 | gamin | yacc: question is a faq. they need power and don't work on an unpowered host |
| 11:40.15 | yacc | So basically one can connect a powered hub to it, and that's it? |
| 11:40.46 | mjr | in host mode yeah |
| 11:40.47 | gamin | if you want to connect devices and the phone acting as host then the answer is yes |
| 11:41.01 | mjr | (or something through a power injector, which I mentioned before) |
| 11:41.14 | gamin | but you can with a battery powered hub connect a printer to it :) |
| 11:41.54 | mjr | instructions for building power injectors can be found on the web, dunno if somebody manufactures them... |
| 11:42.02 | gamin | not uncool to go into any office and print on their printers straight from the phone |
| 11:42.18 | mjr | generally they seem to be thought for the nokia 770, which apparently shares the unpowered usb trait |
| 11:42.33 | gamin | mjr: there is one available on amazon for ~15 bucks |
| 11:43.10 | yacc | mjr: well, it's simple. You take an USB power supply (these you can get as mobile chargers for any USB device) plus one Y power cable, as one usually gets with 2.5" drive enclosures. |
| 11:45.11 | mjr | yacc, mmh, point |
| 11:45.35 | mjr | and adapters galore |
| 12:01.12 | yacc | mjr: Still that doesn't solve the question when the phones will be available *whine* |
| 12:02.34 | stefan_schmidt | yacc: everytime you whine add one to the release date to you. :) |
| 12:03.29 | stefan_schmidt | s/one/one day/ |
| 12:03.33 | yacc | stefan_schmidt: Well, in February my work load should get lower, so other phones will get more interesting ;) |
| 12:04.06 | stefan_schmidt | fine, it's your choice |
| 12:04.11 | yacc | s/stefan.*/apt is a stupid bot?/ |
| 12:04.35 | yacc | stefan_schmidt: I'd prefer something officially supported ;) |
| 12:05.48 | xorAxAx | apt is a stupid bot: |
| 12:05.59 | xorAxAx | s{s a{s really a{ |
| 12:06.23 | stefan_schmidt | yacc: wait not whine |
| 12:39.43 | buz | those nokia 770 power injectors somehow seem to send power to the phone as well |
| 12:39.48 | buz | not sure why exactly they would do that |
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| 12:54.48 | xorAxAx | 13:53:40 -!- Irssi: New peak in #openmoko@freenode : 78 |
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| 13:46.01 | amarsh04 | has anyone noticed that mobile handsets are unduly fussy about MP3 files? I had to load and re-export some files in audacity for them to play right through on a Samsung SGH-A501 |
| 13:47.12 | amarsh04 | Simply being able to have robust (and upgradable) codecs in the FIC handset would be great |
| 13:47.25 | mjr | buz, in some instructions there was a note that it for some reason needed that to work *shrug* |
| 13:47.54 | koen | amarsh04: lets hope FIC has a mp3 license.... |
| 13:48.19 | mjr | actually, I hope FIC doesn't have an mp3 license, but won't blame them much if they do ;] |
| 13:48.41 | koen | mjr: their best bet is to use the fluendo mp3 codec |
| 13:48.49 | daurnimator | are there any mp3 players with phone capabilities? |
| 13:48.53 | koen | since fluendo bought a license for the whole world :) |
| 13:49.07 | mjr | koen, actually it doesn't cover embedded devices |
| 13:49.37 | mjr | desktops, yes, laptops, hmm, probably, don't recall for sure, phones, nu-huh |
| 13:50.45 | amarsh04 | ogg support would be fine for those who want unencumbered audio support |
| 13:51.56 | mjr | I just wouldn't rather pay for an mp3 license; I'd probably install the mp3 codec myself though since even if I prefer vorbis I do have some mp3s as well |
| 13:52.31 | daurnimator | libmad? |
| 13:52.43 | daurnimator | i use wavpack |
| 13:52.46 | daurnimator | pity is has no device support :( |
| 13:54.03 | mjr | luckily I got that soldered back into working order this fall, didn't have to get a short-term replacement before Neo |
| 13:55.42 | mjr | (dropped it, and the power switch, which is surface-soldered on the board and which is pushed sideways by the power button, fell off) |
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| 21:25.56 | digitalslave | has there been any new info out on this phone since the initial posting? its almost january? |
| 21:26.17 | rwhitby | heh a January release date usually means Feb 1 :-) |
| 21:26.43 | rwhitby | (at the earliest) |
| 21:26.55 | digitalslave | yeah but info would be good so close |
| 21:27.27 | digitalslave | sign up for updates and then send out nothing |
| 21:27.39 | rwhitby | I would suggest looking in the community mailing list archive (but only at messages from Sean for the real info) |
| 21:28.49 | rwhitby | AFAIK, there are no changes from whats in the initial posting. wifi is still out and BT is still undecided (the rumour is that it depends on fixing bugs in BT whether it's in or not) |
| 21:33.21 | digitalslave | if they dont have one of them this thing is doomed |
| 21:35.23 | koen | not doomed |
| 21:35.35 | koen | they have a big goverment contract with the chinese goverment |
| 21:35.46 | koen | so whatever they produce it will sell well |
| 21:36.03 | digitalslave | but wont appal to any market |
| 21:36.36 | timtimred | sure it will. it runs windows too. |
| 21:36.50 | digitalslave | and still no connectivity |
| 21:37.12 | koen | my motorola a780 has no functional bluetooth and sells pretty good |
| 21:37.14 | timtimred | but for our purposes this doesnt have to be available at launch |
| 21:37.24 | digitalslave | and its not 400 bucks |
| 21:37.43 | koen | no, my moto was 500 euros |
| 21:38.28 | digitalslave | yay fanboys - gonna have to find CONSUMERS |
| 21:38.46 | koen | who needs a market with a big goverment contract? |
| 21:39.04 | so_solid_moo | indeed |
| 21:39.16 | digitalslave | you dont if thats all you do and if so dont go spreading shit to the community and posting a website |
| 21:39.31 | timtimred | thats a bit harsh.. |
| 21:39.37 | Stephmw | digitalslave: any particular reason why you're so bitter? |
| 21:40.09 | koen | oh dear |
| 21:40.13 | koen | websites are bad |
| 21:40.19 | digitalslave | not bitter at all just hearing one sided bs |
| 21:40.49 | Stephmw | digitalslave: there's no 'side' until something is launched, go wait until that's done. |
| 21:41.22 | digitalslave | seriously as a CONSUMER there are plenty of devices WITH connectivity for less then 400 |
| 21:41.35 | timtimred | go buy a consumer handset then |
| 21:41.38 | timtimred | :) |
| 21:41.46 | Stephmw | digitalslave: As a CONSUMER, you should get off a developer channel and do what timtimred suggests. |
| 21:42.00 | digitalslave | ahaha and the assumptions already |
| 21:42.17 | timtimred | well as your a CONSUMER i assumed you were one. |
| 21:42.18 | Stephmw | digitalslave: you're the one using dem bad words - read the topic |
| 21:42.46 | koen | Stephmw: I think he means we made the assumption that the topic is correct |
| 21:43.20 | Stephmw | koen: he just doesn't have faith. |
| 21:43.30 | digitalslave | and its channel trolls like these that push people away from a crappy dev community |
| 21:43.39 | Stephmw | koen: I *BELIEVE* in the topic! Repeat after be bruthas, BELIEVE! |
| 21:43.49 | digitalslave | i have tons of faith but i make one statement and you guys go ape shit |
| 21:43.51 | koen | ~hail the topic |
| 21:43.53 | apt | ACTION bows down to the topic and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" |
| 21:44.01 | timtimred | digitalslave: this is the community! apart from the mailing list |
| 21:44.10 | so_solid_moo | digitalslave: I think the point is that, this phone won't appeal to everyone, and you'll have to decide whether or not you want one when it comes out. |
| 21:44.11 | Stephmw | digitalslave: I haven't actually - but you've been pretty confrontational - you get as you give out. |
| 21:44.26 | koen | apt: botsnack |
| 21:44.26 | apt | thanks, koen |
| 21:45.23 | digitalslave | haha i say this phone is doomed if it has no connectivity and that is precieved as confrontational?? aw did i shatter some hopes and dreams? |
| 21:45.55 | Stephmw | digitalslave: confrontational is swearing - check your own logs |
| 21:46.07 | digitalslave | by the way i am a software developer and very interested in this phone - would just like not to see this dream that has been tried again and again fail |
| 21:46.14 | Stephmw | digitalslave: confrontational is nitpicking a product which isn't launched yet |
| 21:46.46 | digitalslave | haha the two letters bs?? |
| 21:46.58 | timtimred | just ignore :) |
| 21:47.06 | Stephmw | ignore whom? :) |
| 21:47.06 | koen | Stephmw: like http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000928.html ? |
| 21:47.11 | timtimred | everyone!!! |
| 21:47.11 | cjb | digitalslave: no, look harder. |
| 21:47.52 | Stephmw | koen: ahh |
| 21:48.34 | koen | Stephmw: I couldn't resist replying: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000930.html |
| 21:48.53 | Stephmw | koen: haha |
| 21:49.25 | digitalslave | and again crappy comments like that *shakes head* |
| 21:49.59 | timtimred | i dont care if the connectivity works at launch. i'll stuff data down it using AT commands if i have to. |
| 21:50.00 | Stephmw | koen: I'll start keeping up with the ml when it gets closer to release - atm there's too much 'blue sky' posting... or senseless FUDding |
| 21:50.13 | koen | Stephmw: FPGA!!!!!! |
| 21:50.15 | digitalslave | im out if all you guys can do is take contructional information and simply post its not out |
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| 21:50.35 | timtimred | horay! hes out |
| 21:50.56 | Stephmw | so anyway... it's doomed, right? Dooomed! |
| 21:51.02 | koen | doooooooomed! |
| 21:51.50 | Stephmw | it's amazing how many people want to buy these developer devices (greenphone/first zaurus/etc) and expect it to be consumer-friendly |
| 21:52.12 | Stephmw | hell, one day we should just ship em a breadboard proto |
| 21:52.17 | so_solid_moo | if it can't act as a remote control for my sky TV box, it won't succeed in the marketplace |
| 21:52.22 | so_solid_moo | any idiot knows that. |
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| 21:52.41 | koen | it has to have a FPGA |
| 21:53.02 | Stephmw | koen: it does! You're just not cranking up the prommer voltage high enough. |
| 21:53.03 | koen | otherwise I can't mute the headphones |
| 21:53.28 | Stephmw | koen: hit 10kv and the smoke is a sure sign the erase cycle is proceeding |
| 21:55.16 | koen | ah |
| 21:56.24 | koen | Stephmw: I think I'll unsunscribe from the list at release time |
| 21:57.06 | koen | Stephmw: development will happen in OE (and hence #oe and #openmoko), so no need to endure post from people too lazy to google |
| 21:57.35 | Stephmw | koen: there is that |
| 22:01.42 | Stephmw | my interest will definately perk up when there's a usable JVM on the platform |
| 22:19.17 | buz | it will fail without v8 |
| 22:19.20 | buz | repeat after me |
| 22:19.35 | buz | and it needs a cup holder, of course |
| 22:20.56 | Stephmw | it has that, you just need to glue it to the case (it might look like a cdrom) |
| 22:21.46 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 22:22.48 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 22:23.13 | mjr | but is it IBM PC compatible? |
| 22:23.28 | buz | i'm sure you can run qemu on it |
| 22:26.08 | buz | and someone will surely port doom to it |
| 22:26.16 | buz | so theres no real need for ibm pc |
| 22:27.22 | mjr | I wonder, what with the doom controls... |
| 22:27.26 | mjr | well, there's the usb |
| 22:27.38 | buz | multi touchscreen |
| 22:27.39 | Demitar | Doom? We need sopwith, paratroopers and arcade volleyball. It has proper CGA color-control right? |
| 22:27.40 | buz | tap to shoot |
| 22:27.57 | mjr | sopwith! |
| 22:27.59 | mjr | yes |
| 22:29.02 | mjr | the phone needs sopwith or it'll die |
| 22:30.49 | Stephmw | sopwith without hardware keys would be fun ;) |
| 22:31.10 | Demitar | I was thinking the same, sopwith with a pure touchscreen is a challenge. :) |
| 22:31.45 | Demitar | Tap to set a new target, drag to release a bomb, and tap-tap-tap to fire? :) |
| 22:35.24 | Demitar | I guess this channel really could use a pair of bots. One announcing releasedates by rolling dice and one scrying features through the powers of the magic eightball. |
| 22:37.24 | Demitar | "Will it have bluetooth?" "Outlook not so good.", "The Neo1973 will be released the 1d31 = 21th 1d3 = january." |
| 22:39.34 | koen | outlook is shit |
| 22:39.55 | koen | at least outlook express supports threaded mailview |
| 22:41.00 | viq | Demitar: problems will be if you get 31st february ;) |
| 22:41.58 | Demitar | viq: Perhaps if we pool all our leap-seconds we can work around that? :) |
| 22:42.39 | viq | Demitar: be careful, with that we may make 35th work too ;) |
| 22:43.24 | Demitar | viq: Well, would it be a workday or a holiday? |
| 22:43.49 | viq | Would it be a day? ;) |
| 22:46.01 | Demitar | You mean we might only have enough seconds to fill half the day, so we'd all have to go to work during the night and sleep during the day? *gasps* |
| 22:46.20 | *** join/#openmoko thseiler (n=Thomas@zux221-109-154.adsl.green.ch) |
| 22:48.48 | viq | Who knows, with dates like that ;) |
| 22:52.08 | *** join/#openmoko thseiler_ (n=Thomas@zux221-109-154.adsl.green.ch) |
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