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| 05:27.30 | mindCrime_ | so will the openmoko phone be "open" enough in terms of what the end-user can control, to allow a user to prevent nefariousness like this: |
| 05:27.32 | mindCrime_ | http://tinyurl.com/y4sahs |
| 05:28.07 | mindCrime_ | eg, will I be able to configure my phone so that my carrier *can't* activate the microphone without my explicit permission / knowledge... |
| 05:28.40 | cephdon | I am not sure how they would be able to do that on a linux system without you telling them to do it.. |
| 05:29.03 | cephdon | I guess it will depend on how the system is implemented.... |
| 05:29.06 | mindCrime_ | well, I ask becuase I don't know what (if any) software will be on the openmoko that isn't purely open-source |
| 05:29.31 | cephdon | so far as I know.. the GPS module firmware and the GSM firmware. |
| 05:29.33 | mindCrime_ | I suspect there will be some, there usually is on any kind of wireless device... maybe this time is different? |
| 05:29.50 | cephdon | but the GSM firmware will probably be just on the GSM module, isolated as it were. |
| 05:29.55 | mindCrime_ | ok, cool |
| 05:30.25 | mindCrime_ | if hardware like the microphone will not be directly controlled by any proprietary code, that is a Good Thing, IMO. :-) |
| 05:30.37 | cephdon | I say I suspect.. because i am guessing. ;-) |
| 05:30.56 | mindCrime_ | I'm not a member of the mafia or anything, but I don't much like the idea of being spied on, by the government or anybody else. :-) |
| 05:31.06 | mindCrime_ | cephdon: understood. |
| 05:31.13 | mindCrime_ | let's hope it turns out that way |
| 05:31.14 | cephdon | well, the inputs on the GSM module might be.. but hopefully they will be routing through the processor core and controlled by the linux OS. |
| 05:31.49 | cephdon | i.e. Mic---> CPU----> GSM---->network |
| 05:32.14 | cephdon | and then network--->GSM---->CPU----> speaker |
| 05:32.28 | cephdon | that would give full control to the linux OS. |
| 05:32.41 | mindCrime_ | yeah, that makes sense. As long as a command coming from the network -> mic has to be allowed by something in the linux os, that would be nice |
| 05:33.21 | mindCrime_ | man, I can't wait for these things to come out. I'm so looking forward to this phone. |
| 05:33.25 | cephdon | I guess we will see /shrug |
| 05:33.29 | cephdon | me too. |
| 05:33.44 | cephdon | I am so like a 5 yr old waiting for santa. |
| 05:33.50 | mindCrime_ | yeah, same here |
| 05:34.20 | cephdon | I think maybe I will celebrate christmas on the day the openmoko comes out. ;-) |
| 05:34.29 | mindCrime_ | :-) |
| 06:09.32 | darmou | It's a shame the phone does not have a keyboard:( |
| 06:11.40 | cephdon | ahh... but nothing is impossible.. |
| 06:11.54 | cephdon | the great thing about technology is that its always changing. |
| 06:12.18 | cephdon | what if someone built a USB based sled with a keyboard on it.. |
| 06:12.28 | cephdon | something you could slide up and use? hmmmmm.... |
| 06:13.59 | darmou | Well have a look at http://road-gmbh.de/en/ the hardware looks great |
| 06:14.13 | darmou | however I prefer OpenMoko's development enviroment |
| 06:14.25 | darmou | they are using qtopia |
| 06:14.51 | cephdon | Yeah.. if and when they actually get the phone out the door. |
| 06:15.07 | cephdon | but basically thats a dupe on the nokia 9210, 9300 and 9500 line. |
| 06:15.14 | cephdon | its almost identical. |
| 06:15.22 | cephdon | just nokia wasn't linux. |
| 06:17.30 | darmou | Well that's the key is't it, with linux the sky is the limit when it comes to apps. For example near my wif fi I would love the phone to dial using VOIP |
| 06:17.44 | darmou | and when not near a hotspot, then just go back to GSM |
| 06:18.18 | darmou | Also being able to write apps and deploy them to my phone would be really cool or to port existing linux apps |
| 06:19.15 | darmou | Damn shame my old phone got coke spilt on it and I had to replace it so I went with a Sony Walkman 850i |
| 06:20.36 | cephdon | well, linux doesn't do any good if the phone has limitations which you cant overcome by programming. |
| 06:20.53 | cephdon | Other than that apps are always good =) |
| 06:26.37 | darmou | cephdon or that the functionality is there but you have to go to great lengths to reverse engineer it. That's why I thought OpenMoko is such a great idea with the specs being open |
| 06:26.55 | cephdon | totally. |
| 06:27.07 | cephdon | plus it saved me from building it myself |
| 06:27.38 | cephdon | i was working on basically the exact same thing.. (though the vga screen totally blew my screens away) |
| 06:28.06 | cephdon | but with Edge and BT and GPS and accelerometer (sp?) and Magnetic compass. |
| 06:28.45 | cephdon | I got as far as picking out the Edge, GPS and CPU modules and purchasing the LCDs and accelerometer and compass modules. |
| 06:29.18 | darmou | do you have 3g where you are? |
| 06:29.18 | cephdon | then I saw this and decided to focus here. ;-) |
| 06:29.41 | cephdon | yeah but depending on the carrier its not too much faster than GPRS.. maybe 2 to 3 times. |
| 06:29.50 | cephdon | if you get the full bandwidth. |
| 06:30.04 | cephdon | er.. full bandwidth allowed. |
| 06:30.30 | cephdon | its funny to me to see the people here and their ideas on what the phone should do. |
| 06:30.34 | darmou | Telstra has this thing called next g which is supposed to be faster again but not sure what the specs are |
| 06:30.53 | cephdon | some of them I was thinking of but many i didnt. |
| 06:30.54 | cephdon | ahh. |
| 06:32.00 | cephdon | now I wait just like all the others... for the holy grail to appear. |
| 06:32.08 | cephdon | lol |
| 06:32.42 | cephdon | i just hope it doesn't turn into the holy hand grenade of antioch (sp?) |
| 06:32.49 | cephdon | .../joking |
| 06:37.07 | darmou | "NextG is 3.5g it is telstras HSDPA (High Speed downlink Packet access) network which offers speeds sometimes faster than broadband such as 1.8mbps while 3g is only uses UMTS which can only go at 384mbps" |
| 06:38.06 | darmou | found that on whirlpool broadband internet site. I assume that means higher quality streaming video, interesting |
| 06:38.19 | cephdon | AHHH lol only go to 384mps... hahaha |
| 06:38.36 | cephdon | err mbps |
| 06:38.52 | cephdon | I would love 1.8mbps 384 is a dream. |
| 06:39.01 | cephdon | I dont even get that with cable internet. |
| 06:41.32 | darmou | When I go onto ADSL2+ next year i should be able to get close to 24000 kbps |
| 06:41.40 | darmou | which is very good |
| 06:42.15 | darmou | I'm currenly on ADSL1 1500 kbps |
| 06:43.54 | cephdon | so 1.5 to 1.4 mbps? |
| 06:43.56 | darmou | What frequencies does the phone cover Next G is 850/2100 mhz, 2100 mhz is used for 3g |
| 06:44.00 | cephdon | er.. 2.4mbps |
| 06:48.04 | darmou | it's 1.5Mbps ADSL2+ is 24M5Mbps |
| 06:48.30 | darmou | 24Mbps even |
| 06:48.52 | cephdon | oh.. right, missed a zero. |
| 06:48.58 | cephdon | lol |
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| 17:24.15 | vlg | anybody knows more about OpenMoko in terms of SDK? |
| 17:24.55 | [g2] | vlg more than what ? |
| 17:26.18 | vlg | g2: never mind - I just read the press release pdf - that answers my questions. |
| 17:26.53 | [g2] | vlg are you an OE user ? |
| 17:27.31 | vlg | g2: I'm porting my flashcard app to OE (granule.sf.net) to run on my Zaurus 5500. |
| 17:29.34 | [g2] | vlg cool |
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| 18:52.21 | *** topic/#openmoko by TimRiker -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com/ | http://lists.openmoko.org/ |
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| 20:35.05 | TimRiker | are there phones available yet? |
| 20:39.22 | hrw|tv | 2no |
| 20:39.43 | cephdon | ... its not quite January yet. ;-) |
| 20:40.29 | mikesh | how much is chance, it will be available in january? |
| 20:41.05 | cephdon | I have no idea.. I am just parroting what we have all been told up to this point. |
| 20:42.36 | mikesh | ok |
| 20:53.14 | TimRiker | so what are folks hacking on at this point? |
| 20:54.05 | Laibsch | TimRiker: OE has been around for a long time. There are other devices supported at this point. The community is not just for openmoko. |
| 20:54.10 | TimRiker | is the software available anywhere? what gui libs are they using? |
| 20:54.21 | Laibsch | TimRiker: Only the stuff in OE. |
| 20:54.22 | hrw|tv | TimRiker: gtk |
| 20:54.57 | Laibsch | They will release their stuff in January to OE, they say. |
| 20:54.58 | TimRiker | Laibsch: OE has qt in it too, no? |
| 20:54.58 | Laibsch | Yes, but openmoko will be gtk/GPE as hrw|tv said |
| 20:55.17 | Laibsch | That is why I will have to come up with Japanese input for GPE, for example. |
| 20:56.09 | TimRiker | :) |
| 20:56.13 | hrw|tv | cu |
| 20:56.38 | marcb4242 | is anything known already about the browser that will come with openmoko? |
| 20:58.29 | TimRiker | any other phones are supported by OE at present? |
| 21:00.05 | xorAxAx | hi TimRiker |
| 21:00.49 | stefan_schmidt | Tali: |
| 21:01.04 | stefan_schmidt | ~lart tabcompletion |
| 21:01.22 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: HTC and OpenEZX are still WIP. |
| 21:08.48 | TimRiker | stefan_schmidt: yep... |
| 21:09.28 | *** join/#openmoko element43 (n=element4@c-71-193-228-58.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 21:10.12 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: We work on the OpenEZX low level problems right now and will use openmoko as the userspace stack. |
| 21:36.05 | *** join/#openmoko koen|tdose (n=koen@212.41.157.237) |
| 21:40.45 | TimRiker | stefan_schmidt: ok. I'm working with some folks that may be interested in financing some of this. I'll announce details when I'm able to. |
| 21:41.46 | xorAxAx | will there be bzflag for openmoko? |
| 21:43.13 | TimRiker | xorAxAx: hehe. doubt it. there's no FPU there, so OpenGL is dog slow. |
| 21:43.43 | TimRiker | would be nice to have a ray-cast engine multiplayer game on there though. |
| 21:43.56 | TimRiker | something that only uses ints. |
| 21:44.11 | koen|train | port it to openglES :) |
| 21:44.24 | TimRiker | opengles still is float based. |
| 21:44.25 | xorAxAx | if even my LJ 4 can do raytracing in 500 bytes of ps code ... :) |
| 21:44.43 | xorAxAx | (needing 5 hours for a layer and one lightsource) |
| 21:44.51 | TimRiker | heh |
| 21:45.27 | koen|train | TimRiker: openglES also has an integer only part of its spec iirc |
| 21:45.29 | TimRiker | there are some chipsets like the ti omap 24xx that include hardware accel for opengles. so it'll happen someday soon. |
| 21:45.42 | *** part/#openmoko frankps (n=frankps@14.80-203-106.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:46.04 | TimRiker | but the HTC, ezx, and FIC devices do not have it as far as I know. |
| 21:46.35 | TimRiker | koen|train: that's nothing new. opengl has an int spec too. but do you see any implementations? |
| 21:47.14 | koen|train | sure, the 'vincent' ogles engine |
| 21:47.31 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: Sounds good. Keep me informed. |
| 21:49.08 | cephdon | The embedded space varies widely, ranging from 400Mhz PDAs with 64MB RAM to 50MHz mobile phones with 1 MB RAM. OpenGL ES is designed to accommodate these differences by requiring a minimum footprint with minimum data storage requirements, minimized instruction/data traffic, and is both integer and floating point friendly. For users this means smaller binaries to download that take up less storage on the device. |
| 21:49.16 | cephdon | thats from the opengles site. |
| 21:49.27 | cephdon | that sounds to me like its already implemented. |
| 21:49.30 | cephdon | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:49.48 | xorAxAx | implemented by the marketing dept :) |
| 21:50.02 | TimRiker | xorAxAx: exactly |
| 21:50.15 | cephdon | so your saying its never been tested on a PDA using only integer math? |
| 21:50.41 | TimRiker | I'm saying I've never seen an integer implementation that I'd actually want to use for anything. |
| 21:50.47 | cephdon | ahhh |
| 21:50.50 | cephdon | ok.. |
| 21:51.08 | TimRiker | I've run bzflag on pda platforms before. but at liek 6fps with no textures, who would want it? |
| 21:51.18 | TimRiker | s/liek/like/ |
| 21:51.19 | xorAxAx | blind users maybe? |
| 21:51.25 | cephdon | lol |
| 21:51.48 | xorAxAx | hmm, no, then you would need screenreader support |
| 21:51.59 | TimRiker | masochists that just like to be killed in video games? |
| 21:52.21 | TimRiker | yea! I got killed again! sweet! |
| 21:52.34 | cephdon | hey.. so far we dont even know if the first gen OpenMoko will be able to do video...would tht be any more intensive than a game engine like you are suggesting? |
| 21:53.27 | TimRiker | no. there are a few video codecs that run ok on integer platforms. the ezx real player for an example, though there are better ones. |
| 21:56.04 | cephdon | ouch. |
| 21:56.32 | cephdon | are you doing a study on futility? |
| 21:56.42 | cephdon | can you actually catch up with it? |
| 21:57.29 | cephdon | and by the time you get to any messges which are not spam... are the fresh enough to be worth the trouble? |
| 21:57.38 | cephdon | s/the/they/ |
| 21:57.48 | cephdon | lol... |
| 21:58.27 | TimRiker | there are probably less than 100 false positives in there, I'm not doing a thorough search, just a cursory look and then nuke them. nuking 1k at a time or so. |
| 21:58.40 | TimRiker | I get about 900 spam msgs a day these days. |
| 21:58.46 | cephdon | wow. |
| 21:59.54 | TimRiker | spamassassin++ |
| 21:59.56 | *** join/#openmoko WillySilly (n=WillySil@archlinux/trusteduser/WillySilly) |
| 22:02.12 | stefan_schmidt | TimRiker: We don't spam. :) |
| 22:02.30 | TimRiker | hehe. the ones I found were false positives. |
| 22:02.52 | TimRiker | xorAxAx: ouch. that's gotta take a chunk of cpu time. |
| 22:03.17 | xorAxAx | TimRiker: it can cache the hashes and normally, spammers dont attach images |
| 22:03.26 | xorAxAx | and its running only if the other rules didnt work out |
| 22:04.52 | cephdon | i had no idea that spamassassin could do tht. |
| 22:04.56 | cephdon | err.. that. |
| 22:06.38 | xorAxAx | there are plugins |
| 22:06.51 | TimRiker | many spammers attach images these days. often the message is garbled text and the image is the actual spam. |
| 22:14.01 | TimRiker | poor little mail server really needs an upgrade. :( |
| 22:31.06 | TimRiker | I really ought to write an mrtg script that graphs the spam I receive :) |
| 22:34.00 | TimRiker | http://users.2z.net/rpuhek/scripts_public/spamd/ looksinteresting... |
| 22:34.36 | element43 | this may or maynot be offtopic. however, i was curious besides the overpriced greenphone what alternatives are there for open source cellphones? |
| 22:35.06 | koen|train | the greenphone isn't opensource |
| 22:36.01 | element43 | don't you get the source when you get the sdk? |
| 22:36.34 | koen|train | that doesn't make it opensource |
| 22:37.27 | element43 | well i don't care about philosophy, long as however the phone works I get source to work from. |
| 22:38.18 | rwhitby | element43: you might be in the wrong channel then :-) |
| 22:38.33 | element43 | heh |
| 22:38.54 | element43 | i'm all for the open source but I don't think its fair to force people to distribute it one way or another |
| 22:39.10 | element43 | :) not a fan of viral licences. defeats the point of sharing code. |
| 22:39.30 | xorAxAx | element43: nobody claims that viral licenses are necessary for FOSS |
| 22:39.36 | xorAxAx | BSD would be fine |
| 22:39.41 | koen|train | or MIT |
| 22:39.47 | element43 | anyway, back ot my question. are there any alternatives? |
| 22:39.48 | xorAxAx | but very painful for the trolls :) |
| 22:40.14 | xorAxAx | so they chose GPL for qt |
| 22:41.02 | TimRiker | EZX phones work and are hackable. HTC phones only really work under non-free os, but are hackable. |
| 22:41.30 | TimRiker | openmoko phone promises to work and be hackable in january. |
| 22:41.37 | koen|train | I want to be able to get the source of stuff and be able to put in online and compile stuff against it |
| 22:41.41 | element43 | i don't know an insane amount about phones. this is kind of a recent intrest for me. So forgive my newbieness. but what is the difference between EZX and HTC? |
| 22:42.01 | TimRiker | koen|train: well, you can't do that with the greenphone. |
| 22:43.07 | TimRiker | element43: just different vendors. EZX == motorola, HTC == offshore build with different companies reselling it. |
| 22:43.34 | koen|train | TimRiker: the GP sdk doesn't even allow me to build stuff for !qtopia platforms |
| 22:43.34 | element43 | ahh |
| 22:43.52 | koen|train | TimRiker: so I'm not allowed to use the crosscompiler to compile busybox for my nslu2 |
| 22:44.15 | element43 | well I don't plan on buying a new phone until Feb or so. So we'll see how openmoko pans out. :) |
| 22:44.44 | TimRiker | koen|train: interesting how they believe they can restrict your use of a GPL compiler where the GPL license under which they use it forbids them from doing just that. |
| 22:45.04 | koen|train | TimRiker: very funny indeed |
| 22:45.17 | koen|train | hilarious even |
| 22:45.51 | koen|train | or to quote Fat Tony from the simpsons: "It's funny, because eh.. it's true" |
| 22:47.22 | koen|train | (apart from the fact that trolltech pulled the sdk because of other licensing issues) |
| 22:47.31 | koen|train | so right now, there is no sdk for the GP |
| 22:51.21 | WillySilly | Hi all |
| 23:34.06 | WillySilly | any eta on release on the phone? |
| 23:49.33 | rwhitby | perhaps that should go in the /topic ... |
| 23:50.05 | rwhitby | (January I believe) |
| 23:59.35 | stefan_schmidt | WillySilly: rwhitby is right. January is still the last known date. |