| 00:11.26 | treke | is there anything less productive than late friday afternoon? |
| 00:11.54 | woglinde | monday morning? |
| 00:12.08 | treke | no. monday morning is overly productive. |
| 00:12.10 | emte | sitting in a meeting? |
| 00:19.28 | treke | I guess I can go home soon |
| 00:19.34 | treke | think it's a pizza night |
| 00:25.32 | kergoth | woot! i have pasn |
| 00:25.34 | kergoth | pans, even |
| 00:25.40 | kergoth | now to find something to cook |
| 00:41.02 | kergoth | oh, bacon, good idea |
| 00:42.04 | woglinde | damnit |
| 00:42.09 | woglinde | the same error |
| 00:42.51 | *** join/#oe nettie (~nettie@213-156-52-112.fastres.net) |
| 00:42.56 | woglinde | is TARGET_FPU = "soft" in the disttro.conf enough for build soft-float? |
| 00:43.36 | *** join/#oe raster (~raster@YahooBB219198104088.bbtec.net) |
| 00:44.44 | NeoTron | oh shoot. If you build soft float binaries do you need a gcc compiled with softfloat? |
| 00:45.08 | emte | heya raster |
| 00:45.14 | raster | mmmmmmmmmm soooooft |
| 00:45.18 | raster | emte, mooonin! |
| 00:45.18 | raster | :) |
| 00:45.21 | emte | lol |
| 00:45.40 | emte | i must say e is ending up in quite a few conversations again |
| 00:45.47 | raster | uh oh |
| 00:45.59 | raster | who's dishing the dirt on us again? |
| 00:46.05 | woglinde | neotron i meant if I put the string in the conf is gcc build really build with soft-float? |
| 00:46.15 | raster | i mean - we didnt want evryone to know of ourplans of global conquest YET! |
| 00:46.21 | emte | its generally the same old ... when is e17 gonna be out |
| 00:46.22 | NeoTron | woglinde, my question was unrelated actaully :P |
| 00:46.23 | nettie | Hi guys, I have a zaurus C760 running oz 3.5.1, where should I start from? unforunately I cant reach www.openembedded.org |
| 00:46.33 | raster | emte, when it's ready :) |
| 00:46.37 | emte | lol |
| 00:46.43 | treke | NeoTron: yeah you need a soft-float enabled toolchain |
| 00:46.48 | woglinde | nettie hh.org is down at the moment |
| 00:46.55 | nettie | woglinde, I see :( |
| 00:47.07 | NeoTron | blah |
| 00:47.07 | treke | NeoTron: gcc itself doesnt need to be recompiled afaik, but glibc and everything else will |
| 00:47.11 | NeoTron | ok |
| 00:47.25 | NeoTron | well I just need to build a .so or worst case only a .a |
| 00:47.27 | treke | but I'm not 100% sure on the gcc part :p |
| 00:47.31 | NeoTron | nnot actually a binary |
| 00:49.19 | emte | kergoth: garlic sausage is always good fried as well .... |
| 00:49.51 | raster | seriously it depends how much time we have |
| 00:49.58 | raster | and what features we end up putting in and cutting out. |
| 00:50.07 | emte | yeah |
| 00:50.36 | emte | hey i was semi-thinking |
| 00:51.19 | emte | would it be better to have the menu read from a textfile and use the .eet for icon/theme info etc |
| 00:51.30 | raster | iut will not move too fastas code quality/stability is no 1. priority. features are a distant second. |
| 00:51.40 | raster | also any feature must be clean, polished and well done, not half-arsed. |
| 00:52.02 | raster | well technially thats less overhead |
| 00:52.04 | raster | as onyl 1 open |
| 00:52.14 | raster | and just read it all in |
| 00:53.00 | raster | but it means u cant just add an item by dropping a file in a dir |
| 00:53.05 | raster | u have to installt he file |
| 00:53.09 | raster | then edit the text file |
| 00:53.23 | emte | can get the ipks to edit the file was my thought |
| 00:53.36 | raster | true |
| 00:53.48 | raster | what about a user editing their own? |
| 00:53.50 | raster | :) |
| 00:54.02 | emte | you give users too much faith |
| 00:54.18 | raster | i'd rather try make it easy on both |
| 00:54.22 | emte | we would both be getting emails asking how/why soemthing doesnt work after they installed it |
| 00:54.25 | raster | and put the tough code in the app |
| 00:54.27 | raster | fyi |
| 00:54.41 | raster | e17 alerayd hasall the code to buidl the menus/bar laucnehr from a dir |
| 00:54.54 | raster | so there is little need imho for me to start adding files u have to edit |
| 00:54.55 | raster | :) |
| 00:55.06 | raster | the only file there is a .order file to hint at ordering |
| 00:55.12 | raster | and thats optional |
| 00:55.12 | emte | is it simular enough to transfer over to the style you used in eem-demo? |
| 00:55.39 | raster | hmmm |
| 00:55.40 | raster | no |
| 00:55.56 | raster | it requires a bit more from e17 |
| 00:55.59 | raster | the e_boject stuff |
| 00:56.09 | raster | basically i dotn see eem as a "platform to build on" as such |
| 00:56.35 | raster | so i'm not really caring :0 just because it looks good doesnt mean i shoudl be built on |
| 00:56.36 | raster | :) |
| 00:56.40 | emte | lol |
| 00:56.56 | emte | the menu is a bit more intuitive then the e17 one for a pda |
| 00:57.50 | raster | the way its drawn - yes |
| 00:58.04 | raster | but to reproduce the way its draw/handled is childs play |
| 00:58.12 | raster | i consider that a non-event :) |
| 01:03.01 | emte | hmm ... so i should apdat the e17 method to the demo style? |
| 01:03.06 | emte | adapt* |
| 01:03.24 | raster | no |
| 01:03.30 | raster | i woudl say adapte the menu in eem to e17 |
| 01:04.03 | emte | ? we saying the same thing backwards here? |
| 01:04.15 | raster | no |
| 01:04.22 | raster | i mean use the e17 window manager as abase |
| 01:04.29 | emte | right |
| 01:04.37 | raster | then create a module that offers a "desktop" menu that can be keyboard an mouse driver |
| 01:04.49 | raster | just like e17 currently has the ibar and dropshadow modules |
| 01:05.03 | raster | this imho wodul be yet "anotehr laucnehr bar" module |
| 01:05.19 | raster | and thus maybe woudl be the chouce for pda-style displays instead of ibar |
| 01:06.13 | emte | hmm ... isnt the cpomiled weight of e17 still pretty heavy? |
| 01:06.17 | emte | compiled* |
| 01:06.43 | raster | not that big |
| 01:06.48 | raster | 130kb for the binary |
| 01:06.51 | raster | the rest is theme data |
| 01:07.19 | emte | yeah thats not bad ... |
| 01:07.48 | raster | in the long run u will end up duplicating wahst in e17if u are goign to run in x - u will need a wm anyway |
| 01:07.53 | raster | and since u ware launchgin other apps |
| 01:07.57 | raster | u have no choice but to do that |
| 01:08.05 | raster | u arent goign to run in the fb ANd exec apps |
| 01:08.27 | raster | u woudl need a way fo sharign the fb |
| 01:08.30 | raster | x provides that |
| 01:09.55 | emte | man after this i wont have any problem passing my C exams ... |
| 01:11.30 | raster | hehehe |
| 01:11.31 | raster | indeed |
| 01:11.32 | raster | :) |
| 01:11.58 | *** join/#oe wincent (~wincent@void-109.pmnet.uni-oldenburg.de) |
| 01:12.50 | emte | alright ... off hand where do i find ibar and dropshadow ... need some sort of templateish thing |
| 01:13.24 | emte | ibar = iconbar in apps? |
| 01:13.36 | raster | to do this stuff with e17 i need the following: a much more minimal theme setup - i've made some attempt at it, 2. a modular layoutr manager that decides where windows get placed and sized and what happens when they reques such stuff |
| 01:13.54 | raster | 3. a more small-screen no touchscreen/pen laucnehr module |
| 01:14.06 | raster | emte, in the src/modules dir |
| 01:14.12 | raster | ibar is the laucnehr bar |
| 01:14.20 | raster | dropshadow does soft dropshadows on yoru desktop |
| 01:14.40 | emte | ls src |
| 01:14.56 | raster | i updated the tarball yesterday too |
| 01:15.01 | raster | it can resize windows now |
| 01:15.01 | raster | :) |
| 01:15.07 | *** join/#oe shorne (~shorne@219.238.219.11) |
| 01:15.08 | emte | the e17+pre? |
| 01:15.17 | raster | yes |
| 01:15.22 | emte | good :) |
| 01:15.34 | emte | hmm src/modules in where? |
| 01:15.39 | emte | its not in e |
| 01:17.34 | emte | i've found the .db stuff ... |
| 01:17.41 | emte | but that was in data |
| 01:18.15 | raster | eh? |
| 01:18.23 | raster | inside the e17 pre src tarball |
| 01:18.37 | raster | and heres no .db stuff in data at all |
| 01:18.38 | emte | ah i was looking in the cvs pull |
| 01:18.48 | raster | oh |
| 01:18.51 | raster | thats not in cvs yet |
| 01:18.54 | emte | lol |
| 01:19.04 | emte | thats good, i thought i was missing something |
| 01:19.09 | raster | i will put it in when the wm is vaguely functional (to my personal standards) |
| 01:19.19 | raster | ignroe e in cvs until i say otherwise |
| 01:19.20 | raster | :) |
| 01:19.22 | emte | sounds good |
| 01:19.23 | raster | (the wm) |
| 01:19.25 | shorne | raster: why hasn't anyone delete the e17 from CVS? |
| 01:19.35 | shorne | seems like it would be a good idea |
| 01:19.50 | emte | e17 is being worked on |
| 01:20.04 | raster | shorne, because i'm keeping it for reference - ie stealing body parts from the carcas :) |
| 01:20.09 | raster | it doesnt build |
| 01:20.15 | raster | 0 chance of it buildign against anything there |
| 01:20.19 | raster | so its no issue |
| 01:20.22 | shorne | but you can get that stuff from the attic right? |
| 01:20.38 | raster | yeah |
| 01:20.45 | raster | but that means pulling special cvs dates |
| 01:20.48 | raster | and i dont want to bother |
| 01:20.51 | raster | or special revisions |
| 01:20.54 | shorne | ok |
| 01:20.58 | raster | thatscrees up my local tree |
| 01:21.09 | shorne | yeah, I see what you are saying |
| 01:21.16 | raster | when i'm ready i will en-mass dump the e17 code i have released in tarballs in there |
| 01:21.16 | emte | btw you have the cleanes room i've ever saw ... |
| 01:21.22 | emte | cleanest* |
| 01:21.28 | raster | eh? |
| 01:21.36 | shorne | its just about one a month that someone mails the list about e17 not building |
| 01:21.41 | emte | http://www.rasterman.com/files/meh.jpg |
| 01:21.41 | shorne | not too bad |
| 01:21.52 | raster | oooh |
| 01:21.59 | raster | thats just my coding corner |
| 01:22.04 | emte | lol |
| 01:22.58 | emte | does elicit work ? |
| 01:23.22 | emte | i get a lot of unselectables |
| 01:24.14 | emte | cant say i really expect it to |
| 01:24.21 | raster | i hate mess |
| 01:24.24 | emte | not for a while yet anyway |
| 01:24.26 | raster | i hate untidiness |
| 01:24.32 | raster | it's a daily battle with my gf |
| 01:24.35 | raster | she is so messy |
| 01:24.38 | emte | lol |
| 01:25.18 | emte | hmm |
| 01:25.29 | emte | e_border.c: In function `_e_border_eval': |
| 01:25.29 | emte | e_border.c:1143: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type |
| 01:25.29 | emte | e_border.c:1149: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type |
| 01:25.29 | emte | make[3]: *** [e_border.o] Error 1 |
| 01:26.06 | emte | did ecore change in the last day or so? |
| 01:26.09 | raster | u will see the errors elsewhere |
| 01:26.12 | raster | yes |
| 01:26.20 | emte | k |
| 01:26.24 | emte | i'll recompiel ecore |
| 01:26.26 | raster | ecore and edje and friends upate for e17 regularly |
| 01:27.19 | emte | i need to restart my rss for taht notification |
| 01:27.48 | kiatoa | Just curious: why no fdisk in oe? There is an fdisk_xyz.ipk on handhelds.org |
| 01:28.06 | emte | what would you fdsik? |
| 01:28.10 | emte | fdisk* |
| 01:28.48 | emte | microdrive i suppose |
| 01:29.11 | raster | anything u use ext2 on |
| 01:29.15 | emte | i should check the prices on those |
| 01:29.17 | kiatoa | I (think) I need to make a CF disk into ext2 so linking works (i.e. installing on CF). |
| 01:29.37 | emte | mkfs.ext /bah/CF |
| 01:29.49 | emte | mkfs.ext2 /bah/CF |
| 01:31.30 | *** join/#oe thatweasel (~thatwease@user-0ccensp.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 01:31.55 | *** join/#oe Virusmaster (~Thomas@p5091BC63.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 01:31.56 | kiatoa | Ah! Makes sense... I was following directions I found on the web... |
| 01:33.06 | emte | its what i use for mine when my mp3 player complains |
| 01:33.19 | emte | tho i use mkfs.msdos |
| 01:35.19 | emte | lets see if e likes xchat now |
| 01:36.25 | *** join/#oe emte (Paranoia@d66-183-163-211.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 01:36.43 | emte | damn ... |
| 01:36.45 | emte | its all pretty and beautiful |
| 01:37.12 | emte | lol |
| 01:37.20 | emte | the iconbar ufo is funny |
| 01:51.30 | raster | dman |
| 01:51.33 | raster | now u call it a ufo! |
| 01:51.34 | raster | :) |
| 01:51.46 | raster | did u fill your ibar with apps? |
| 01:52.27 | *** join/#oe ggilbert (~ggilbert@lsanca2-ar31-4-33-244-178.lsanca2.dsl-verizon.net) |
| 01:52.36 | ggilbert | hmmm. I'm addicted to domain names |
| 01:56.36 | *** join/#oe mithro (~tim@dsl1-83.gw1.adl1.airnet.com.au) |
| 01:56.38 | raster | emte, http://www.rasterman.com/files/meh2.jpg |
| 01:57.03 | raster | thats more like the room (fromt he view of my coding corner). not as tidy as i'd like tho |
| 01:59.06 | mithro | so raster why are you so intrested in oe? |
| 02:00.17 | raster | mithro, god commanded me to be. |
| 02:00.23 | raster | ok |
| 02:00.24 | raster | maybe not |
| 02:00.25 | raster | :) |
| 02:01.19 | raster | i like devices |
| 02:01.27 | *** join/#oe TimRiker (~timr@TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 02:01.50 | raster | pda's and smart hpones for the past 2-3 years are/have been faster than my first pc i wrote E on (for e 0.1-0.13) |
| 02:01.59 | raster | that pc was a p120, 32mb of ram. |
| 02:02.11 | raster | my ipaq 3660 beats it. |
| 02:02.17 | raster | it has double the ram and more cpu grunt |
| 02:02.31 | kiatoa | Question about oemake: why the (oh so long) parsing of all .oe files at the beginning ofa build? No way to cache that? |
| 02:02.41 | raster | the possibilities of these little babies is amazing |
| 02:02.46 | raster | but they simply arent being pushed there |
| 02:02.56 | raster | peolpe either treat them as an mbedded 8bit platofrm |
| 02:03.00 | raster | and dont do anythgin inteersting |
| 02:03.14 | raster | or they treat it as a full blown ghz pc desktop and so the thing crawls |
| 02:03.43 | treke | ohh vmware beta 5 |
| 02:03.56 | mithro | so what are you going to do about it :) |
| 02:03.57 | emte | raster: yeah it has a few icons ... didnt know whatelse to call it ... either a ufo or a lamp |
| 02:04.19 | raster | every ui i've seen on a pda (from palm os which i own a clie) to pocketpc, to linux (gpe or qtopia) all just make me go "man u guys can do so much better than this! come ON!" |
| 02:04.20 | raster | :) |
| 02:04.31 | emte | lol |
| 02:04.38 | raster | emte, hehe i dont have a name for it yet either. my gf calls it the "hamburger" |
| 02:04.47 | emte | the old one was a hamburger |
| 02:04.53 | raster | yeah |
| 02:05.16 | raster | mithro, i'm targetting all of my workpon e to scale down to pda ANd up to ghz desktop |
| 02:05.31 | raster | so far i personally believe i've done a decent job with the libs side |
| 02:05.36 | raster | its turned out a charm |
| 02:06.15 | raster | emte, yeah. thus the "hamburger" title :) |
| 02:06.36 | emte | hmm |
| 02:06.41 | emte | mozilla isnt behaving |
| 02:06.54 | emte | wonder if firefox will |
| 02:08.14 | emte | nope ... |
| 02:08.49 | emte | fire wont even start ... gets to the profilemanager and thats it |
| 02:08.55 | emte | oh well |
| 02:09.09 | emte | i'll use my gf's box for web :P |
| 02:09.55 | emte | wt ... |
| 02:10.17 | emte | odd ... you have some type of window contetnt override raster? |
| 02:10.22 | emte | content* |
| 02:10.50 | raster | window content? |
| 02:10.54 | mithro | raster: so you got anything which demonstrates this then? |
| 02:10.57 | emte | moz wont display content if i start it from a term but it works if i run it from the iconbar |
| 02:11.17 | raster | mithro, some examples - prototypes, ideas - eem was one - see eem.avi on rasterman.com/files.html |
| 02:11.51 | raster | emte, eh.. i do nothing special in laucnhing apps - just fork and exec... |
| 02:11.51 | mithro | whats eem? |
| 02:12.07 | raster | mithro, "Enlightement for EMbedded" |
| 02:12.10 | raster | its just a demo app |
| 02:12.20 | raster | giving an example/ide of how things shoudl be imho |
| 02:13.01 | mithro | you know apples dock might actually work well on a pda.... |
| 02:13.28 | treke | eeew |
| 02:13.32 | emte | ugh |
| 02:13.46 | treke | apples dock barely works on a 15 inch widescreen :p |
| 02:13.53 | treke | I'd hate to see it on a 3.5 inch |
| 02:14.38 | mithro | treke: i mean the zoom on focus part |
| 02:14.45 | treke | ah |
| 02:14.55 | raster | mithro, from one point of view it wont as it relies on mouseover - and that is not possible on a pda - u'd NEED to make it arrowkey navigable too |
| 02:15.13 | raster | look at the eem.avi |
| 02:15.18 | raster | as another take/example on it |
| 02:15.27 | mithro | raster: why couldn't dock be arrow key navigatable? |
| 02:15.30 | emte | hmm no keyboard focus ... |
| 02:15.44 | raster | it could be |
| 02:15.46 | mithro | just have 1 key which focuses the dock then left right? |
| 02:15.54 | raster | u'd need to make it so |
| 02:16.13 | raster | well u'd actualyl need to write a whole dock |
| 02:16.16 | raster | :) |
| 02:16.29 | mithro | i wasn't actually saying to apples dock and make put it on a pda :) |
| 02:16.33 | raster | oiddly enough the whole osx dock thing is actualyl a shared lib in esmart |
| 02:16.38 | raster | its one of the container layout modules |
| 02:16.39 | raster | :) |
| 02:16.46 | emte | mmmm i missed mouse-focus on terminals |
| 02:16.50 | mithro | i was saying that a concept like apples dock could work well on a pda |
| 02:17.01 | raster | emte, eh? |
| 02:17.21 | emte | had it disabled before for one reason or another |
| 02:17.30 | mithro | raster: if you added "zoom" support so that the currently selected item was like twice as big i think it would make your eem 5* better |
| 02:17.31 | emte | so you had to click-focus |
| 02:18.02 | raster | mithro, hats possible |
| 02:18.10 | emte | there is already a magnifyer |
| 02:18.17 | raster | in fact with a few lines of code i can just elave it up to the theme to decide |
| 02:18.17 | raster | :) |
| 02:18.27 | raster | yeah |
| 02:18.30 | kergoth | man, i hate spending $160 at the grocery store |
| 02:18.30 | raster | at the top-right |
| 02:18.39 | mithro | i would also suggest makeing the ones either side a bit larger |
| 02:19.20 | raster | mithro, themedesign/user preferences issue |
| 02:19.22 | raster | :o) |
| 02:19.24 | raster | ie |
| 02:19.26 | raster | a non-issue. |
| 02:19.52 | raster | (imho) |
| 02:20.31 | mithro | raster: you didn't show how you access the menu when running an application? |
| 02:20.38 | raster | no |
| 02:20.40 | mithro | or switch between applications? |
| 02:20.43 | raster | i didnt |
| 02:21.08 | mithro | which are kinda important bits :) |
| 02:21.19 | raster | as u get back tot he menu by exiting the "app" |
| 02:21.23 | raster | ie with left arrow |
| 02:21.35 | raster | it simply make the app PARt of the menu heirachy |
| 02:21.51 | mithro | so what happens if the app is slow to start? |
| 02:21.52 | raster | this is my way of addressign the xomplexity of hh ui's |
| 02:22.06 | raster | it shouldnt need to be slow |
| 02:22.06 | mithro | how do you close an application? |
| 02:22.14 | raster | and i guess u wait for it to pop up |
| 02:22.14 | raster | :) |
| 02:22.17 | raster | u exit it |
| 02:22.20 | raster | lef taroow |
| 02:22.29 | raster | the app starts with a menu of thigns to do |
| 02:22.34 | mithro | raster: does it preserve what i was working on then? |
| 02:22.36 | raster | by exiting that u exit the app |
| 02:22.44 | raster | thats the job of the app |
| 02:22.54 | raster | but yes it SHOULd save its state - whetever u did |
| 02:22.58 | raster | so when u come back it is as u left it |
| 02:22.59 | mithro | so say i'm doing something in the terminal |
| 02:23.08 | raster | thats up to the app |
| 02:23.12 | mithro | and need to go and get some info from my address book |
| 02:23.18 | raster | in THIs case i'd suggets the tterminal app stays running |
| 02:23.20 | raster | but simply hides |
| 02:23.25 | raster | to keep your shell session alive |
| 02:23.32 | mithro | so how do you terminate the terminal app? |
| 02:23.33 | raster | when u come back it simply re-attaches to it |
| 02:23.46 | raster | on hideit de-inits all resouces not needed for keepign that state |
| 02:23.54 | raster | if ti can it can save it all to "disk" and completely exit. |
| 02:24.00 | raster | by exiting the shell |
| 02:24.06 | raster | one u exit the shell there is no state to keep |
| 02:24.33 | raster | so exitign theshell exits the temrinal |
| 02:24.33 | raster | and thus removes all resource usage |
| 02:24.33 | mithro | this UI seems very phone like |
| 02:24.33 | treke | kergoth: jesus, 160 bucks? |
| 02:24.33 | raster | the point here is *YOU* are thinkign of the pda as a PC |
| 02:24.33 | raster | as aunxi workstation |
| 02:24.34 | raster | with apps |
| 02:24.35 | treke | what the hell did you buy? |
| 02:24.47 | kergoth | i hadnt been to the grocery store for anything but pizza and the like in a long time |
| 02:24.49 | raster | i am comign formt he angle that "its a device - simply driver by a pc/unix os" |
| 02:25.01 | raster | peole think of it that way and treat it that way. |
| 02:25.06 | kergoth | spices, bowls for my burners ont eh stove so i dont set off the fire alarm again, bunch of food of all sorts, etc |
| 02:25.11 | kergoth | heh |
| 02:25.13 | raster | mithro, yes. it was intended for a phoen actually |
| 02:25.13 | raster | :) |
| 02:25.17 | mithro | raster: i'm comming from the idea that i want to do multiple tasks at once |
| 02:25.26 | raster | mithro, it isnt intended for the power nerd runing 80 apps |
| 02:25.41 | raster | mithro, but u can onyl really see 1 at once on such a small screen |
| 02:25.44 | raster | so u flip. |
| 02:25.50 | mithro | it always infuriates me that i can't do multiple things on my phone |
| 02:26.04 | raster | yeah |
| 02:26.11 | raster | thats somehting i want to address with panes |
| 02:26.16 | mithro | ie no easy way to copy and paste from address book to sms |
| 02:26.17 | mithro | etc |
| 02:26.19 | raster | u can stick one task u are doign in some pane |
| 02:26.39 | raster | thats more that particular phones ui |
| 02:26.47 | raster | a good ui would make that easy |
| 02:26.52 | raster | as u jump out of the sms editor |
| 02:26.56 | raster | it saves your editigns |
| 02:27.01 | mithro | the problem is going through the menu to get from address to sms |
| 02:27.05 | raster | u go to find the text u need |
| 02:27.06 | mithro | it takes like 4 clicks |
| 02:27.07 | raster | grab it |
| 02:27.11 | raster | then go back to sms editor |
| 02:27.17 | raster | it comes back up where u left off |
| 02:27.18 | raster | paste. |
| 02:27.25 | raster | yup |
| 02:27.31 | raster | so maybe u want shortcuts to do it |
| 02:27.48 | raster | emte, miltiple windwos dont eat up battery |
| 02:27.48 | raster | :) |
| 02:27.49 | emte | do* |
| 02:27.51 | mithro | raster: on a desktop style thing it takes 2 clicks max |
| 02:27.52 | raster | they eat up mroe ram |
| 02:27.57 | mithro | click on address app |
| 02:28.01 | emte | raster: jsut whats running in them :) |
| 02:28.06 | raster | and IF the programs keep using cpu while they have a widnow they will consume mroe cpu resoruces and thus more battery |
| 02:28.06 | mithro | click back on sms app |
| 02:28.11 | raster | but multiepl windwos on their own dont |
| 02:28.31 | raster | mithro, but when u dotn have a big enough screne to hold more than 1 app- u have little choice. |
| 02:28.41 | treke | indeed |
| 02:28.45 | mithro | raster: have you used ratposion or ion? |
| 02:28.54 | treke | I have. |
| 02:28.54 | raster | mithro, i have seen them. |
| 02:28.55 | emte | you sorta need to "tab" everything |
| 02:29.09 | emte | to have it 1/2 readable |
| 02:29.14 | treke | I've also used ion on a pda |
| 02:29.18 | treke | it's ok |
| 02:29.21 | treke | but not great |
| 02:29.39 | mithro | ion doesn't have a good way to switch with the stylus |
| 02:29.41 | treke | the most common uses of pdas just don't involve multiple aps |
| 02:29.54 | raster | yup |
| 02:29.57 | treke | mithro, it can support buttons. |
| 02:29.58 | raster | and the few cases where u do |
| 02:30.05 | raster | (eg play an mp3 while reading your mail) |
| 02:30.13 | raster | can be accomplished with backgroudn tasks |
| 02:30.15 | mithro | i'm always using multiple apps |
| 02:30.19 | raster | and maybe soem status/control panel (pane) |
| 02:30.28 | raster | mithro, you are in the vast vast vast minority |
| 02:30.31 | treke | mithro. You are an oddity. |
| 02:30.41 | raster | most people out ther ein consumer land can barely fit 1 application in their head |
| 02:30.44 | raster | let alone 2 |
| 02:30.47 | mithro | raster: everyone i have seen use a PDA uses multiple apps |
| 02:30.49 | mithro | even my mum |
| 02:30.51 | raster | people are bad at multitaskign |
| 02:30.53 | raster | we are nberds |
| 02:30.58 | raster | we do it all the time |
| 02:31.03 | mithro | and my um isn't a nerd |
| 02:31.05 | kergoth | if the apps load fast enough, you dont need them all open at once. |
| 02:31.10 | treke | raster: except for emacs users |
| 02:31.15 | raster | treke, hahahaha |
| 02:31.18 | raster | yup |
| 02:31.25 | mithro | it just easier to have them all open and click on them in the task bar |
| 02:31.30 | raster | with GOOD WELL WRITTEn and EFFICIENt apps u an simply app flip |
| 02:31.31 | treke | they never figured out that there were other apps written |
| 02:31.32 | emte | mithro what do you have running all the same time? |
| 02:31.35 | raster | u dont need them all up at once |
| 02:31.41 | kergoth | raster: yeah, exactly |
| 02:31.48 | raster | but why shoudl peole even know they are APPS? |
| 02:31.55 | raster | they shoudl jst be some aspect/thing that the device can do |
| 02:31.59 | kergoth | mithro: for all intents and purposes, if the apps save state on exit, and start quickly, there's no difference between that and one app at a time. |
| 02:32.00 | raster | they shoudltn ened to know its an app |
| 02:32.00 | treke | look at the palm. everything nicely terminates when you switch apps |
| 02:32.07 | raster | they shoudl dgo "i want to write an sms" |
| 02:32.11 | raster | and go do it. |
| 02:32.14 | treke | then they pop immedietly back up again |
| 02:32.16 | kergoth | mithro: except in the rare case of something in the background actually doing something useful while it isnt visible. |
| 02:32.21 | raster | they shouldnt have to knwo the sms editor is launched as an executable |
| 02:32.27 | mithro | the taskbar is the best invention i know off |
| 02:32.27 | raster | and exits or srtarts |
| 02:32.34 | raster | yup |
| 02:32.39 | raster | plam is an execllent example |
| 02:32.40 | treke | mithro, good god, you must be kidding |
| 02:32.52 | kergoth | i dont even use a taskbar on my desktop |
| 02:32.54 | kergoth | just slows me down |
| 02:32.59 | raster | a temrinal app is an exception as a shell has a LOt fo VERY COMPLEX state to hold |
| 02:33.07 | raster | that short of dumping a core and picking up form that |
| 02:33.12 | raster | is not really possible to "save" |
| 02:33.13 | mithro | raster: what about a spreadsheet? |
| 02:33.55 | treke | I use kde on my desktop and the task bar is the first thing to disappear |
| 02:33.55 | kergoth | what about it? |
| 02:33.55 | kergoth | if the spreadsheet stores what you were working on, exits quickly, and loads qiuckly with that data, it works fine |
| 02:33.55 | mithro | when i come back to my spreadsheet i want it at the same location in the same place |
| 02:33.55 | raster | mithro, a spreadsheet is alerayd capable of saving the spreadsheet as a file. it has the ability to load and save state as such. |
| 02:33.55 | treke | it just doesn't scale well behyond a handful of apps |
| 02:33.55 | raster | thats easy |
| 02:34.00 | treke | on multiple desktops |
| 02:34.04 | kergoth | mithro: and? as raster says, thats easily done |
| 02:34.06 | kergoth | it doesnt have to stay running |
| 02:34.23 | mithro | saving a spreadsheet is different from saving the current state of the spreadsheet |
| 02:34.26 | raster | u save cursor, scroll pos. in fact this is saved WITHIn excel files and .doc files already |
| 02:34.28 | treke | mithro, a spreadsheet is one of the easier apps |
| 02:34.39 | kergoth | a spreadsheet is no problem |
| 02:34.45 | raster | a shell is tough as the shell istelf is speartate to the temrinalk emulator |
| 02:34.46 | treke | since you just need to dump a bit of info out to disk |
| 02:34.54 | raster | and only the shell knwos enoggh to save it sstate |
| 02:34.58 | emte | you can save spreadsheet states the same way vi/vim does in a recovery file |
| 02:35.10 | raster | even then it SPANWS other exeuctabels that may be currently runing or not that it cannot affect in terms of state save |
| 02:35.14 | raster | its the exception |
| 02:35.15 | treke | even the shell doesn't know how to save its state since it's launching other apps |
| 02:35.21 | raster | most apps can save and load their state easily. |
| 02:35.33 | treke | networks apps are problematic for obvious reasons |
| 02:35.37 | raster | yeah |
| 02:35.45 | raster | but in those case i'd siggest a spli design |
| 02:35.52 | raster | with the netowkr/protocol handlign as a back-end daemon |
| 02:35.54 | treke | but the ui doesnt need to reflect that |
| 02:35.55 | raster | spawned and kept around |
| 02:35.57 | kergoth | treke: exactly |
| 02:36.02 | raster | wiht eh gui attaching/detaching to/from it like screen |
| 02:36.13 | raster | if ti really needs to maintain connections |
| 02:36.15 | raster | (like irc) |
| 02:36.33 | treke | we are a very small minority who activly switch apps |
| 02:36.39 | raster | yup |
| 02:36.45 | treke | most people aren't doing python development and irc at the same time on a pda |
| 02:36.52 | raster | the onyl reaosn to swihc apps normally is to retirev information FROm another app |
| 02:36.54 | raster | or control it |
| 02:36.59 | raster | and in those cases its a special thng |
| 02:37.11 | raster | controllign woudl be for example mp3 player playign while on irc |
| 02:37.16 | raster | u can ue a status pane |
| 02:37.21 | raster | for such special uses |
| 02:37.29 | kergoth | treke: where's your windowed mode disable patch at? is it in oe atm? |
| 02:37.38 | kergoth | treke: the windows on my sl6000 in opie are getting on my nerves |
| 02:37.39 | kergoth | heh |
| 02:38.25 | mithro | raster: personally i think it's wrong to try and constrict the user to doing 1 thing at a time |
| 02:38.44 | mithro | because most people want to do multiple things at once |
| 02:38.48 | raster | mithro, a user AN only do wont thing at once |
| 02:38.51 | raster | CAN |
| 02:38.58 | raster | go try do 2 things at once |
| 02:39.02 | raster | u will find u cant |
| 02:39.07 | raster | u are always FLIPPING |
| 02:39.10 | raster | maybe quickly |
| 02:39.14 | raster | but u are flipping |
| 02:39.39 | raster | only if the snesory stumuli are separated can u do multielp things |
| 02:39.40 | raster | ie |
| 02:39.46 | mithro | but flipping needs to be easy |
| 02:39.50 | raster | listengi to music while reading a document |
| 02:39.53 | raster | yes |
| 02:40.01 | mithro | screen, ion, taskbar are all flipping tools |
| 02:40.10 | raster | but the point is that u need to first make flippoing mroe ORGANISED |
| 02:40.14 | raster | before u go there |
| 02:40.21 | raster | yes |
| 02:40.23 | raster | they are |
| 02:40.32 | mithro | and they all deal with currently open tasks |
| 02:40.52 | raster | and they all look pretty much liek arse |
| 02:40.56 | raster | :) |
| 02:40.57 | mithro | ie i don't care my device can write sms is i'm only editing my address book and playing mp3s |
| 02:41.03 | raster | also they can be better organised |
| 02:41.08 | mithro | s/is/if |
| 02:41.22 | mithro | raster: do you like grouping on the task bar? |
| 02:41.32 | raster | i dont use taskbars |
| 02:41.53 | raster | well not on a desktop |
| 02:42.03 | raster | and on my pdas i never leave multiepl things up at once |
| 02:42.08 | raster | plam doesnt let u |
| 02:42.25 | raster | and under qtopia the strain on the poor system is too much |
| 02:42.50 | mithro | i've never had to much problem with multiple open apps under opie |
| 02:43.09 | raster | well by my standards its slow as christmas |
| 02:43.25 | mithro | infact i constantly have opie-today, addressbook, todo, terminal and a few others open |
