| 15:33.37 | *** join/#hhwiki ibot (ibot@208.186.182.172) |
| 15:33.38 | *** topic/#hhwiki is The hh.org wiki is a mess. Let's rebuild. What functions does the wiki serve that aren't better served elsewhere? Let's try to pare the site down to 2 or 3 or 4 major sections and try to simplify things. Please see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/WikiReorganization . Wiki janitors needed! |
| 15:33.51 | kencausey | TimRiker: Thank you! |
| 15:33.54 | kencausey | ibot: welcome |
| 15:33.55 | | kencausey: bugger all, i dunno |
| 15:34.08 | kencausey | ibot: welcome is <reply> Thanks! I'm glad to be here. |
| 15:34.09 | | kencausey: okay |
| 15:34.12 | kencausey | ibot: welcome |
| 15:34.13 | | Thanks! I'm glad to be here. |
| 15:34.22 | TimRiker | he's here. botmail me when the channel dies. |
| 15:34.30 | kencausey | TimRiker: I will, thanks. |
| 15:34.48 | TimRiker | np |
| 15:35.01 | kencausey | ibot: logs |
| 15:35.02 | | http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/, or stats http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz |
| 17:05.40 | *** join/#hhwiki ibot (ibot@208.186.182.172) |
| 17:05.40 | *** topic/#hhwiki is The hh.org wiki is a mess. Let's rebuild. What functions does the wiki serve that aren't better served elsewhere? Let's try to pare the site down to 2 or 3 or 4 major sections and try to simplify things. Please see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/WikiReorganization . Wiki janitors needed! |
| 17:06.25 | TimRiker | he should rejoin here now. |
| 17:12.33 | kencausey | TimRiker: Thank you, should I register this channel for now to help you out? |
| 17:55.10 | TimRiker | kencausey: if you like. it's not a big deal to me. |
| 18:24.53 | *** join/#hhwiki pb_ (~pb@pc2-cmbg4-3-cust239.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) |
| 18:25.32 | kencausey | pb_: I guess that comment served as a reminder? ;) You haven't missed anything. |
| 18:25.59 | kencausey | I guess this might be better handled on a mailing list. But which one? |
| 18:26.14 | pb_ | kencausey: heh, indeed. |
| 18:27.56 | *** join/#hhwiki AntiProxy (Admin@AntiProxy.com) |
| 18:43.42 | *** join/#hhwiki jg (~jg@dhcp-r24.crl.dec.com) |
| 18:57.32 | kencausey | jg: Hi, please see the /topic |
| 18:57.56 | kencausey | jg: My first priority is trying to narrow down what the wiki can best be used for and try to focus on those few things. |
| 18:58.36 | kencausey | jg: I suspect I'm going to need to take this to a mailing list. Any preferences as to which one? |
| 18:58.56 | kencausey | jg: Also, assuming I can put together a small group of wiki janitors, would communication through the admin list be appropriate? |
| 19:07.26 | pb_ | kencausey: Mailing lists are cheap; if you talk sweetly to Nick I'm sure he could create a dedicated list. |
| 19:07.54 | kencausey | pb_: I think that would be overkill, after an initial flurry I don't expect much traffic. |
| 19:08.24 | pb_ | Okay. In that case, yes, I think admin@ or handhelds@ would be appropriate. |
| 19:08.26 | kencausey | pb_: If that turns out differently then I certainly would ask for a list at that point. But I'm inclined to see how it goes first. |
| 19:09.24 | kencausey | pb_: Do you think handhelds@ would be the best place to start the discussion and round up those that are interested in the issue? |
| 19:09.41 | pb_ | Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. |
| 19:10.02 | kencausey | I guess I'll try to get something written up later after I put out a couple of fires. |
| 19:11.29 | pb_ | Okay, cool. In terms of what should be in the wiki, maybe we should start by making an initial pass over it and deciding what would be better hosted on the "official" handhelds.org pages. Things like instructions for setting up bluetooth and ppp, for example, that should really be part of the user guide. |
| 19:11.52 | kencausey | Right |
| 19:12.31 | kencausey | I wonder about whether we need to go back to an FAQ-o-matic again or whether we feel we have enough people with CVS write access to the FAQ. |
| 19:12.59 | pb_ | I know one of the main problems we have at the moment is that if someone wants to know how to set up PPP, we have to direct them to the wiki because that's the only place it's documented. And all the information is indeed there, but it's poorly presented and you often have to scroll through a large amount of historical cruft to find the section that pertains to the current release. |
| 19:13.03 | kencausey | The wiki just doesn't work well for an FAQ, people stick comments in the strangest places. |
| 19:13.41 | kencausey | Right, it has it's uses to collect the information while things are settling down, but without a lot of discipline it becomes very difficult to read. |
| 19:14.45 | pb_ | I think there are probably enough people with write access to the FAQ to take care of maintaining it. I've never been all that fond of FAQ-o-matics, because again they tend to suffer from getting choked up with random cruft. |
| 19:15.43 | kencausey | True |
| 19:15.48 | pb_ | For the FAQ to be really useful, I think it does need some level of active maintainership, with a human figuring out which really are the questions that are frequently asked and filtering out the garbage. |
| 19:16.27 | pb_ | In reality, we probably don't have more than about a dozen true FAQs. If we could document those clearly, in a place that's easy to find, that seems like it should be a great improvement. |
| 19:17.05 | kencausey | I guess it depends on how you define FAQ |
| 19:17.24 | kencausey | Even if you could narrow it down to a dozen for this week or the last month, the list changes over time |
| 19:19.14 | pb_ | Yes, that's true, but the rate of change isn't that great. For example, "Why don't SD cards work?" has been a favourite for a long time. |
| 19:19.16 | kencausey | It also depends on whether you exclude from the FAQ things that are documented elsewhere |
| 19:21.54 | kencausey | OK, right now we seem to have a mixed FAQ/Howto |
| 19:21.57 | kencausey | Do we split that? |
| 19:22.21 | kencausey | Let's say we do, we improve the howto to include some stuff that is only represented on the wiki |
| 19:22.34 | kencausey | We add to the FAQ and remove that functionality from the wiki |
| 19:22.34 | pb_ | Yes, I think so. We should probably try to move towards having a proper user guide for Familiar, and a lot of the howto stuff would form part of that. |
| 19:23.09 | kencausey | What does that leave? |
| 19:23.57 | kencausey | A lot of the stuff on there seemed like a good idea, like HandheldsBuyAndSell |
| 19:24.12 | kencausey | But few of the users made the effort necessary to make the posts they added useful |
| 19:25.00 | kencausey | Would that better be handled by a trading mailing list? Or do we not want to touch that with a ten foot pole? |
| 19:25.54 | pb_ | Occasionally someone will suggest that we should have forums, and I think that would probably be the medium of choice for stuff like buy & sell. Whether it's worth the effort to set up, I don't know. |
| 19:25.56 | kencausey | I can see a Users/Developers section where people can carve out a little section of their own to advertise their own packages and show their screenshots. |
| 19:26.41 | kencausey | I'm disinclined personally from adding yet another two-way communication mechanism to the existing email/IRC |
| 19:27.06 | kencausey | But that certainly is a case where the forum probably works better. |
| 19:27.12 | pb_ | Yes, indeed. Having a section where people can put their own personal stuff seems like it's been useful, and I think we should definitely continue with that. |
| 19:27.50 | pb_ | Well, maybe we should just drop the buy&sell thing altogether. I guess people should be fairly well served by ebay and its ilk anyway. |
| 19:28.26 | kencausey | Yes, I'm inclined towards that myself. |
| 19:30.04 | kencausey | Who manages ipkgfind? Is there any plans to add a browsing interface to that? One thing I can see people wanting is a way to find out about available packages including maybe a screen shot and description. |
| 19:30.17 | pb_ | Jacmet looks after ipkgfind, I think. |
| 19:30.48 | kencausey | Is that Peter Korsgaard? |
| 19:30.52 | pb_ | Yep. |
| 19:31.26 | pb_ | I think you're right: something like an iPAQ/Familiar equivalent of http://killefiz.de/zaurus/ might be useful. |
| 19:33.19 | kencausey | right |
| 19:36.30 | kencausey | Biggest problem I see right now for giving ipkgfind a browsing interface is that we don't have any category information in ipkg control files. Or at least it is very coarse. |
| 19:36.55 | pb_ | Yes. I wonder how the Zaurus folks deal with that. |
| 19:38.13 | jamey | kencausey: I have also made some modifications to ipkgfind -- I added the file extract facility |
| 19:38.55 | jamey | kencausey: I would also like to see download stats in ipkgfind from handhelds.org web/ftp server |
| 19:39.50 | jamey | kencausey: regarding screenshot, what would be the interface for associating screenshot with ipkg? control file or UI on ipkgfind? |
| 19:41.10 | kencausey | on phone, one sec.... |
| 19:47.10 | kencausey | jamey: Is ipkgfind available in CVS for everyone to work on? |
| 19:47.57 | kencausey | jamey: As far as screenshots. The easiest thing might be to add a Screenshot: field to control, a list of one or more URLs to screenshots. |
| 19:48.30 | pb_ | The downside of that is that you'd need to do a new package upload to add or update a screenshot, which might be cumbersome. |
| 19:48.51 | kencausey | jamey: Otherwise I guess a CGI UI for developers to modify the ipkgfind entry and add screenshots. Maybe the first time ipkgfind sees a package it would send the maintainer an email to tell them how to modify their ipkgfind entry. |
| 19:49.31 | kencausey | pb_: True, maybe we need a way to edit the Packages entry without uploading a new package, but then that would lead to more user ipkg update needs, so maybe that isn't a good idea. |
| 19:50.15 | pb_ | Yeah. |
| 19:53.36 | jamey | kencausey: yes as ipkgfind |
| 19:54.13 | jamey | kencausey: cascading Packages files would be useful for annotating/augmenting info without repackaging |
| 19:54.37 | jamey | kencausey: or database-backed Packages file on server |
| 19:55.02 | kencausey | How does that link to the Packages file you get on the ipaq from ipkg update? |
| 19:55.20 | kencausey | Won't you still have the problem that the file is changing when packages aren't changing? |
| 19:56.10 | kencausey | Of course it would still be confusing to have the Packages file not match the control file in the package... |
| 19:56.12 | jamey | kencausey: the Packages file would change but the package versions would not change so no extra upgrades would be triggered |
| 19:56.36 | kencausey | No, not upgrades, but update, or does update just mindlessly redownload packages whether it has changed or not? |
| 19:56.52 | jamey | kencausey: I would think of it as a layering -- nothing that is in the control file would be changed, but fields such as screenshot could be added |
| 19:56.53 | kencausey | s/packages/Packages/ |
| 19:57.07 | pb_ | kencausey: just mindlessly redownloads at present |
| 19:57.16 | jamey | kencausey: we currently do not have a way to only download Packages file when it has changed |
| 19:57.16 | kencausey | jamey: How would they get there in the first place though? |
| 19:57.36 | kencausey | jamey: My idea was to eliminate a UI by having the info submitted in the control file. |
| 19:57.56 | kencausey | If we have to add a UI anyway what's the value in having that directly linked to Packages at all? It could simply be in an ipkgfind database. |
| 19:58.41 | kencausey | Does updating a package REQUIRE incrementing the version number? |
| 19:59.10 | kencausey | I mean in general the developer wouldn't change screenshots all that often between package upgrades I wouldn't think. |
| 20:00.35 | jamey | kencausey: maybe screenshot info in Packages file is not helpful |
| 20:00.50 | pb_ | kencausey: the other effect of putting this data in control is that only the maintainer can create screenshots. not sure if that is desirable. |
| 20:00.59 | kencausey | It seemed like the simple solution, but perhaps causes other problems. |
| 20:01.01 | jamey | kencausey: I think it makes sense to separate screenshot links from control files because there can be multiple screenshots, screenshots submitted by non-maintainer, ... |
| 20:01.27 | kencausey | Yes, I suppose. |
| 20:01.37 | jamey | kencausey: we should add the package name to scap as an option -- we already have the screen capture mechanism after all |
| 20:01.50 | kencausey | That will need some kind of access control though, image abuse is a sport. |
| 20:02.24 | kencausey | Use scap as a screenshot repository? Does it not flush its cache over time? |
| 20:03.03 | pb_ | Yes, though there's already a mechanism to make particular images permanent. |
| 20:03.31 | kencausey | OK, so it would require just a little conscious control from the poster then. |
| 20:03.38 | jamey | kencausey: pgp-signed scap using same keyring as upload mechanism to prevent spam ? |
| 20:04.08 | kencausey | jamey: Limitted to those images posted as 'permanent'? Otherwise seems like a complication to the average scap user. |
| 20:04.22 | kencausey | Is the permanent posting thing queried by the scap client? |
| 20:05.31 | jamey | hmm |
| 20:05.33 | pb_ | No. At the moment, to make a scap image permanent, you have to click the "html" link, put the resulting html into a webpage, and then view that page. |
| 20:05.49 | pb_ | Oh, sorry, I see what you mean. Yeah, it might make sense to do that. |
| 20:06.05 | jamey | keep scap as is, write another script that takes particular scap url, fetches it, signs it, and uploads it via new upload-screenshot.cgi modeled after current upload-package.cgi ? |
| 20:06.33 | kencausey | fetches it == fetches image file? |
| 20:06.45 | kencausey | Is this a ipkg utility or a CGI script? |
| 20:07.28 | kencausey | Interface could be part of scap html or ipkgfind package html or both... |
| 20:07.56 | kencausey | So anyone with a valid maintainer key can add a screenshot... |
| 20:08.56 | kencausey | Yes, adding another button to scap page seems like the right solution. |
| 20:09.05 | kencausey | OK, then that leaves package categorization |
| 20:11.32 | kencausey | So we need to either allow hierarchical section specification in the Section: field, or add another Category: field. |
| 20:11.48 | kencausey | Section: x11/audio |
| 20:12.03 | jamey | right, section x11 is completely useless |
| 20:12.07 | kencausey | Section: network/clients/pop3 |
| 20:12.17 | jamey | I'm in favor of making the section field hierarchical |
| 20:12.19 | kencausey | indeed |
| 20:12.43 | jamey | perhaps also allowing multiple categorizations -- comma separated ? |
| 20:12.55 | kencausey | sure |
| 20:13.32 | kencausey | How much do we enforce it? Do sections have to be predefined? Or can adding a package and specifying a new Section: entry add a new section to ipkgfind? |
| 20:15.33 | jamey | let's not predefine sections |
| 20:15.52 | kencausey | ibot: botmail for TimRiker, Thanks again for sending ibot our way, the logs will turn out to be useful after all. |
| 20:15.53 | jamey | or rather, not limit to predefined sections |
| 20:16.07 | jamey | what, you're not taking notes? |
| 20:16.12 | kencausey | :p |
| 20:16.18 | jamey | I have referred to the logs for months ago to remember what I said |
| 20:17.57 | kencausey | Ok, so priorities? I think section trumps screenshot. |
| 20:18.34 | jamey | yes |
| 20:20.49 | kencausey | jamey: So as far as you are aware nothing actually uses the Section: field at this point? So we can safely finesse it's use? |
| 20:22.30 | jamey | kencausey: ipkg does not use it. opie package manager probably does use it but I think only as a string (which argues against multiple comma-separated categorizations for now) |
| 20:23.02 | jamey | so I think it is safe to finesse its use |
| 20:23.16 | jamey | I'll grep -r opie sources to see what I can find |
| 20:27.52 | jamey | opie's oipkg looks for section/subsection, so will not break if there are deeper nestings |
| 20:33.41 | kencausey | jamey: So more than 2 levels is OK? |
| 20:33.58 | kencausey | Sorry, someone decided to bring down the internal network and I had to step away there for a minute. |
| 20:36.58 | kencausey | Sounds like we need to at least come up with guidelines, maybe Debian has something we can steal again... |
| 20:37.14 | jamey | opie's oipkg looks for section/subsection, so will not break if there are deeper nestings |
| 20:37.22 | jamey | so more than 2 levels is ok |
| 20:37.39 | kencausey | Thanks, just making sure I understood. ;) |
| 20:58.29 | kencausey | ibot: logs |
| 21:00.00 | *** join/#hhwiki Demo (jogy@dialup-65.56.18.103.Dial1.Richmond1.Level3.net) |
| 21:00.10 | Demo | What is going on ? |
| 21:02.01 | kencausey | Demo: Hi, see the /topic |
| 21:02.19 | kencausey | Demo: We have so far discussed offloading some stuff from the wiki. Like howtos and FAQs |
| 21:02.37 | kencausey | Demo: Get rid of buying and selling sections |
| 21:02.56 | kencausey | Demo: Then we talked about adding browsing support to ipkgfind so we don't need packages lists in wiki |
| 21:03.10 | kencausey | Demo: That involved adding screenshot support and better section definitions. |
| 21:03.51 | kencausey | Demo: It was decided that the first order of business was to add support for hierarchical Section: field in the control file and ipkgfind could use that for a sectional browsing interface. |
| 21:04.15 | Demo | cool |
| 21:06.57 | AntiProxy | i think we need some sort of authentication, where new pages could be added by anyone, while old ones need a member access, |
| 21:07.51 | AntiProxy | this could help maintain a cleaner wiki database, as you've noticed, there are so many kidiots out there who think they'r so cool and remove or overwrite wiki content.. |
| 21:17.12 | kencausey | AntiProxy: I've seen this issue before, the authentication requirement kills a wiki faster than the kidiots |
| 21:17.31 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Regular maintenance can handle most defacement. We have undo. |
| 21:21.06 | AntiProxy | i'm with you on that |
| 21:21.31 | AntiProxy | well well |
| 21:21.59 | AntiProxy | another thing, the Wiki needs a proper search engine. |
| 21:22.14 | AntiProxy | i always had to rely on google to find a page in the wiki, as the default search engine took me no where |
| 21:22.36 | AntiProxy | that also causes duplicate entries to exist, as poster don't realize a similar page already exists on the Wiki |
| 21:56.02 | kencausey | AntiProxy: The wiki is going to get smaller first of all. But what doesn't work about the search feature that's there? |
| 21:56.08 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Much smaller I believe. |
| 22:05.01 | AntiProxy | strangley enough it works just fine now that i tried it again |
| 22:05.18 | AntiProxy | last time i tried, it didn't perform full text search |
| 22:05.33 | AntiProxy | so it was almost impossible to find information unless the page topic was set right |
| 22:06.06 | AntiProxy | some @#(%*& has issues with gameboy emulators and is screwing up all the wiki pages with reference to gameboy |
| 22:06.13 | AntiProxy | http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/xgb%20Gameboy%20Emulator |
| 22:06.21 | AntiProxy | http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/gnuboy%20Anothe%20Gameboy%20Emulator |
| 22:07.11 | AntiProxy | http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/GameBoy |
| 22:07.19 | kencausey | AntiProxy: If you just use the blank at the top of any page, if what you type in exactly matches an existing page name, you will only get that page. |
| 22:07.36 | kencausey | AntiProxy: If you click SearchPage you will get a different result using the search on that page, you will get a full list in every case. |
| 22:07.53 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Want to be a wiki janitor? |
| 22:08.10 | *** join/#hhwiki TimRiker (~timr@proxyle02.ext.ti.com) |
| 22:08.14 | AntiProxy | i used to do clean ups from time to time |
| 22:08.21 | TimRiker | ~bzflag |
| 22:08.28 | TimRiker | ~reload |
| 22:08.28 | | reloading... |
| 22:08.28 | | reloaded. |
| 22:08.29 | pb_ | kencausey: by the way, what's the procedure for recovering a page that's been defaced like that? |
| 22:08.32 | TimRiker | ~bzflag |
| 22:08.38 | TimRiker | ibot: bzflag |
| 22:08.44 | TimRiker | stupid bot |
| 22:08.45 | AntiProxy | kencausey: till someone went on a rampage |
| 22:11.10 | *** join/#hhwiki ibot (ibot@208.186.182.172) |
| 22:11.10 | *** topic/#hhwiki is The hh.org wiki is a mess. Let's rebuild. What functions does the wiki serve that aren't better served elsewhere? Let's try to pare the site down to 2 or 3 or 4 major sections and try to simplify things. Please see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/WikiReorganization . Wiki janitors needed! |
| 22:11.18 | AntiProxy | ibot: hi |
| 22:11.18 | | hey, antiproxy |
| 22:11.31 | pb_ | ibot: what happened? |
| 22:11.31 | | pb_: I wish you would RTFM. |
| 22:11.32 | AntiProxy | yay! |
| 22:11.39 | AntiProxy | ibot: what have you been smoking lately? |
| 22:11.40 | | AntiProxy: I wish you would RTFM. |
| 22:11.45 | AntiProxy | okay.. |
| 22:11.59 | pb_ | ibot: happy now? |
| 22:11.59 | | pb_: I don't know, could you explain it? |
| 22:11.59 | AntiProxy | or should that be RsTFM? |
| 22:12.02 | TimRiker | ~bzflag |
| 22:12.03 | | well, bzflag is mailto:Tim@Rikers.org or the former CTO of Embedix, Inc. (Lineo) and maintainer of the 3D internet multiplayer multiplatform (linux, irix, win32, etc) opensource opengl Battlezone capture the flag game of the same name that you must try at http://BZFlag.org/ or a continual development project with periodic gaming |
| 22:12.16 | AntiProxy | ibot: AntiProxy |
| 22:12.17 | | contact: botmail or Admin@AntiProxy.Com , URLs: http://www.antiproxy.com/handhelds , http://home.antiproxy.com/HandHeld .. am i doing a good job ? => http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=AntiProxy .) |
| 22:12.25 | AntiProxy | umm |
| 22:12.45 | TimRiker | heh |
| 22:13.00 | kencausey | To undo, find the page in the HUGE listing |
| 22:13.02 | kencausey | click it |
| 22:13.11 | kencausey | Go to the undo tab |
| 22:13.19 | kencausey | Always be sure to undo the TOP item |
| 22:13.53 | kencausey | If you have to do more than one undo that's fine, just always undo from the top down |
| 22:14.10 | kencausey | Each undo may create another undo item in the undo list, just skips those if you need to undo more than once. |
| 22:17.37 | AntiProxy | hmm |
| 22:17.41 | AntiProxy | gotta do this on my other box |
| 22:18.09 | AntiProxy | Opera is having a hard time coping with the huge page .) |
| 22:18.58 | AntiProxy | brb |
| 22:37.32 | AntiProxy | okay this is starting to get on my nerves |
| 22:37.46 | AntiProxy | http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/GameBoy |
| 22:37.51 | AntiProxy | it got changed 10 minutes back again |
| 22:38.37 | AntiProxy | i'm logged in, but i still get "there are no transactions that could be undone" when i try to undo.. |
| 22:56.04 | *** join/#hhwiki kencausey (~ken@12-222-170-136.client.insightBB.com) |
| 22:56.25 | kencausey | pb_: Did you get your username and password and catch my answer to undoing? |
| 22:57.41 | AntiProxy | <AntiProxy> okay this is starting to get on my nerves |
| 22:57.42 | AntiProxy | <AntiProxy> http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/GameBoy |
| 22:57.42 | AntiProxy | <AntiProxy> it got changed 10 minutes back again |
| 22:57.42 | AntiProxy | <AntiProxy> i'm logged in, but i still get "there are no transactions that could be undone" when i try to undo.. |
| 22:58.46 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Did you catch my comment about the history tab? |
| 22:58.51 | kencausey | don't use undo, use the history tab |
| 22:58.58 | kencausey | Anyway I already fixed that page |
| 22:59.01 | kencausey | Is it already broken? |
| 22:59.07 | AntiProxy | yup |
| 22:59.10 | kencausey | Maybe we were both trying to fix it at the same time? |
| 22:59.12 | AntiProxy | check it again |
| 22:59.18 | AntiProxy | it's the cheesiest crap i've ever read |
| 22:59.19 | kencausey | checking... |
| 22:59.27 | pb_ | kencausey: ah, no, I didn't. |
| 22:59.32 | kencausey | Maybe someone has a bot on it? |
| 22:59.43 | AntiProxy | can't you check the server logs? |
| 22:59.48 | AntiProxy | see if that IP keeps hitting it |
| 22:59.51 | pb_ | good thinking |
| 23:00.16 | kencausey | pb_: get that? |
| 23:00.33 | kencausey | pb_: should I repeat my undo comments too? |
| 23:00.54 | pb_ | kencausey: no, I see them in the history now. |
| 23:01.08 | kencausey | If that's not clear let me know |
| 23:01.51 | pb_ | hm, the zope log is not very helpful. |
| 23:01.56 | kencausey | AntiProxy: that's the earliest version right now, to tell you thr truth I didn't read it. |
| 23:01.59 | kencausey | pb_: No, use apache's logs |
| 23:02.00 | pb_ | 127.0.0.1- - [06/Jun/2003:22:25:13 -0400] "POST /wiki/GameBoy" 302 171 |
| 23:02.00 | pb_ | 127.0.0.1- - [06/Jun/2003:22:25:13 -0400] "GET /wiki/GameBoy/manage_workspace" 302 357 |
| 23:02.00 | pb_ | 127.0.0.1- - [06/Jun/2003:22:25:14 -0400] "GET /wiki/GameBoy/manage_main" 200 11109 |
| 23:02.07 | pb_ | kencausey: ah. |
| 23:02.28 | AntiProxy | so it's user -> apache -> zope ? |
| 23:02.41 | AntiProxy | kencausey: if you check the history of that page, it seems there's a war going on it |
| 23:02.42 | kencausey | pb_: forget it anyway, that's what I recovered, I just didn't look at it closely. |
| 23:02.51 | kencausey | AntiProxy: look at the username |
| 23:02.52 | pb_ | ah, heh |
| 23:02.54 | kencausey | AntiProxy: I'm nikos |
| 23:03.01 | AntiProxy | i noticed the loser keeps his signature as "Sandy run middle sckool student" |
| 23:03.02 | kencausey | AntiProxy: That was me fiddling with the undo feature |
| 23:03.10 | AntiProxy | umm |
| 23:03.11 | kencausey | oh? looking |
| 23:03.33 | AntiProxy | this isn't the only messed up page with that signature |
| 23:03.45 | kencausey | Have fun! ;) |
| 23:04.00 | AntiProxy | we need an IP ban feature .\ |
| 23:04.13 | kencausey | Cleaning up the wiki will also have the affect of making the zope list easier to manage |
| 23:04.15 | AntiProxy | or at least, the ability to limit certain IP subnets access |
| 23:04.25 | AntiProxy | so some can only view info |
| 23:05.18 | kencausey | One thing to note is that zope uses an append style database |
| 23:05.22 | kencausey | It grows and grows |
| 23:05.31 | kencausey | Periodically someone has to manually pack it |
| 23:05.36 | kencausey | That deletes old versions of things |
| 23:05.49 | kencausey | Which means we lose history and undo back beyond a certain point |
| 23:05.53 | AntiProxy | ah |
| 23:05.58 | AntiProxy | lol.. now i know what has happened |
| 23:06.01 | kencausey | So keeping up with the defacements is kind of crucial |
| 23:06.11 | AntiProxy | you restored an old copy of that wiki page.. |
| 23:06.16 | kencausey | Right |
| 23:06.20 | AntiProxy | but didn't really look closely as to what's written there |
| 23:06.21 | kencausey | That was already messed up |
| 23:06.26 | kencausey | I just read like the first liine |
| 23:06.33 | AntiProxy | lol |
| 23:06.41 | kencausey | I think we can just kill that page |
| 23:06.46 | kencausey | How useful could it have been? |
| 23:07.46 | AntiProxy | http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:8O8DaE3KwvAJ:www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/GameBoy+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 |
| 23:08.00 | AntiProxy | it doesn't really serve a purpose |
| 23:08.12 | kencausey | I'm going to change it... |
| 23:08.17 | AntiProxy | almost none of the definition pages does |
| 23:08.35 | AntiProxy | as most of them come straight from a dictionary or perhaps whatis.com .) |
| 23:09.19 | pb_ | heh, yeah. |
| 23:09.23 | kencausey | that's one down. ;) |
| 23:09.59 | kencausey | Mozilla doesn't really like tables that big... |
| 23:10.24 | kencausey | Doesn't help that this is a dual celeron 466... |
| 23:10.53 | kencausey | I'm starting from the bottom of the list |
| 23:12.44 | AntiProxy | dual PIII450 and Opera is extremely slow when the entire index is loaded |
| 23:12.50 | AntiProxy | i need more RAM |
| 23:12.59 | AntiProxy | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:13.00 | AntiProxy | Mem: 516620 502088 14532 0 108948 220396 |
| 23:13.00 | AntiProxy | -/+ buffers/cache: 172744 343876 |
| 23:13.00 | AntiProxy | Swap: 1460584 68760 1391824 |
| 23:13.15 | kencausey | I'm fine once it's rendered, but the render stalls for a good 10 seconds in Moz for me |
| 23:13.37 | AntiProxy | kencausey: i'm using a Windows box for this task right now |
| 23:13.53 | AntiProxy | as the most powerful box i have is a windows box ( my gaming station! ) |
| 23:14.29 | AntiProxy | P4 2.8GHz, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128MB (8X AGP) |
| 23:14.42 | kencausey | That beats me. ;) |
| 23:15.28 | kencausey | If you look at the Properties tab |
| 23:15.47 | kencausey | the parents property is a list of pages that are known to have had a link to the page you are looking at at least at one time |
| 23:16.04 | kencausey | If you delete a page, please check that and clean up the page that linked to it if it still does. |
| 23:16.15 | AntiProxy | ok.. |
| 23:16.44 | AntiProxy | i guess BackLinks would show all the linking pages, doesn't it? |
| 23:17.11 | kencausey | It's the same thing yes, I'm assuming that you are already in the manage interface |
| 23:17.31 | kencausey | That property is what determines what BackLinks shows |
| 23:17.40 | AntiProxy | aha |
| 23:17.43 | AntiProxy | gotcha.. |
| 23:17.50 | kencausey | Well, I take that back |
| 23:17.57 | kencausey | It lists the ones that are selected |
| 23:18.06 | kencausey | The full list may be calculated |
| 23:18.55 | kencausey | Ughh |
| 23:19.02 | kencausey | I hate when someone converts a page to html |
| 23:26.18 | AntiProxy | haha.. check SandBox and SandBoxy |
| 23:27.33 | pb_ | lol |
| 23:27.55 | kencausey | SandBox is specifically for screwing with |
| 23:28.04 | kencausey | clean it off periodically |
| 23:28.15 | kencausey | But temporary messes in there are expected |
| 23:28.18 | kencausey | But maybe I should look... |
| 23:28.36 | kencausey | yeah, that's normal practice stuff |
| 23:28.37 | AntiProxy | umm |
| 23:28.51 | AntiProxy | we should find a way to assign duties |
| 23:29.08 | AntiProxy | i just clicked a page which i was intending to delete, and it was gone already .) |
| 23:29.19 | kencausey | Which page? |
| 23:29.29 | kencausey | I did say I would start at the bottom of the list. ;) |
| 23:29.55 | AntiProxy | that's the best way to start anyway |
| 23:30.03 | AntiProxy | i sorted them by the date, and started from the oldest |
| 23:30.06 | AntiProxy | heh |
| 23:30.14 | kencausey | ah, I'm in alpha sorting. ;) |
| 23:30.22 | AntiProxy | ah |
| 23:30.22 | kencausey | OK, let me resort |
| 23:30.41 | kencausey | What date are you on at this point? |
| 23:30.52 | AntiProxy | i barely even started yet |
| 23:31.02 | kencausey | I've deleted about 4 pages at this point |
| 23:31.08 | AntiProxy | got myself a snack and a couple of beers, preparing for an all night long cleanup |
| 23:31.14 | AntiProxy | heh |
| 23:31.18 | kencausey | AntiProxy: you the man! ;) |
| 23:31.26 | AntiProxy | got nothing better to do .) |
| 23:31.28 | kencausey | I'm not going to do it but for about 30 more minutes. |
| 23:31.38 | kencausey | I've got to cook at some point. ;) |
| 23:31.46 | AntiProxy | don't remind me |
| 23:31.49 | kencausey | AntiProxy: don't burn yourself out, we need you for the long haul. ;) |
| 23:31.51 | AntiProxy | i cooked today.. and the results were nasty |
| 23:31.57 | pb_ | heh, oh dear |
| 23:32.09 | AntiProxy | i use 'heh's too much |
| 23:32.11 | AntiProxy | heh |
| 23:32.35 | kencausey | AntiProxy: I'll skip up to March and work up from there. |
| 23:33.09 | AntiProxy | sounds good to me |
| 23:33.22 | AntiProxy | i have an idea |
| 23:33.34 | AntiProxy | we should add some sort of filter to the main contents page |
| 23:33.51 | AntiProxy | imagine the time you'd save you you didn't have to load that huge page every now n then |
| 23:34.02 | AntiProxy | i thought i'd keep that index open, and do my stuff in other windows |
| 23:34.05 | kencausey | Don't forget, the plan is to start over and SERIOUSLY reduce what is in the wiki |
| 23:34.13 | kencausey | Wait |
| 23:34.18 | kencausey | You mean the manage index page? |
| 23:34.23 | kencausey | or the Wiki frontpage? |
| 23:34.28 | AntiProxy | the manage index page |
| 23:34.30 | AntiProxy | the HUGE page |
| 23:34.38 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Yeah, I'm opening new pages in new tabs |
| 23:34.56 | AntiProxy | kencausey: i was doing that, but then i realised the need to refresh the index page |
| 23:35.03 | kencausey | I'm only reloading the index when I delete pages, I check off 3 or 4 before hitting the delete button |
| 23:35.09 | AntiProxy | especially when there are a couple of us working simultanously |
| 23:35.16 | AntiProxy | s/ously/eously/ |
| 23:35.30 | kencausey | yes, but we will try harder to not conflict now. ;) so don't worry about it |
| 23:35.34 | AntiProxy | oh well.. maybe i nag too much |
| 23:35.37 | AntiProxy | heh |
| 23:35.42 | kencausey | no it's a good point |
| 23:36.27 | AntiProxy | oh hey |
| 23:36.35 | AntiProxy | i have x0rfbserver running too .) |
| 23:37.48 | kencausey | OK, it really chaps my ass when the bible belters post pages advertising themselves. |
| 23:38.08 | kencausey | OK, it says Open Source once, but there's nothing about handhelds there |
| 23:38.17 | kencausey | http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/CrossWire |
| 23:38.59 | kencausey | ehhh OK, the page it's linked from is ipaq specific, so I'll leave it |
| 23:43.17 | kencausey | http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/Why%20Open%20your%20zipper |
| 23:43.53 | AntiProxy | lol |
| 23:44.35 | AntiProxy | you know what sucks..... |
| 23:44.51 | AntiProxy | is that after deleteing a couple of pages, the index reloads... |
| 23:45.00 | AntiProxy | yet i have to reload it again to sort by the date |
| 23:45.08 | kencausey | Don't delete them one by one |
| 23:45.16 | AntiProxy | i knwo what |
| 23:45.16 | kencausey | check a few at a time then hit the delete button |
| 23:45.18 | AntiProxy | s/wo/ow/ |
| 23:45.24 | AntiProxy | i checked like 20 in one go |
| 23:45.30 | kencausey | I'm confused then |
| 23:45.39 | kencausey | Yes, when you hit the delete button the page is reloaded |
| 23:45.49 | kencausey | I don't see how that can be avoided |
| 23:45.53 | AntiProxy | it doesn't keep your sorting options |
| 23:45.58 | AntiProxy | that's what i'm saying |
| 23:46.12 | kencausey | no? hmm... |
| 23:46.26 | AntiProxy | just like any form, of course it has to be reloaded upon submission.. but you have to resort the page everytime you make a submission |
| 23:46.32 | AntiProxy | ( submit the form that is ) |
| 23:47.20 | pb_ | Whereabouts in the list are you guys working at the moment? |
| 23:47.28 | kencausey | pb_: sort by date |
| 23:47.33 | kencausey | pb_: I'm still in march |
| 23:47.44 | pb_ | of this year? |
| 23:47.52 | kencausey | 2002 |
| 23:47.52 | AntiProxy | i'm in Feb 2002 |
| 23:48.12 | pb_ | okay. guess I'll have a bash at April 02 then. |
| 23:48.24 | kencausey | AntiProxy: Hopscotch us to may if you catch up |
| 23:48.41 | kencausey | pb_: Ready to do something mindless now? ;) |
| 23:48.53 | kencausey | AntiProxy: You are right, resorted back for me to |
| 23:49.07 | kencausey | let me ask in #zope |
| 23:49.58 | kencausey | We are well behind in versions at 2.43 |
| 23:50.00 | kencausey | err 2.4.3 |
| 23:50.06 | kencausey | We probably need to upgrade |
| 23:54.19 | AntiProxy | .( |
| 23:54.29 | AntiProxy | clicked instead of shift click.. |
| 23:54.32 | AntiProxy | you know the rest |