| 00:39.41 | itsnotabigtruck | well, this is a bit of a clusterfuck |
| 00:41.30 | beford | what |
| 00:43.06 | itsnotabigtruck | beford: everything about the community awards |
| 00:43.23 | itsnotabigtruck | c.f. the 24 page thread about the aftermath |
| 00:45.52 | itsnotabigtruck | anyone who thinks the arrangement was crooked needs to speak up on TMO |
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| 05:49.25 | ashfjjfjf | Morning. Is there a way of getting the typed password for a wifi network set up? I cannot recall the password anymore, and I would like to use the netwotk on my laptop, Unfortunately, my friend is sleeping, so I am unable to even ask again. :/ |
| 06:03.14 | beford | i believe theres an app for that in the forum |
| 06:03.15 | beford | search |
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| 07:29.12 | gabriel9 | morning |
| 07:29.21 | gabriel9 | here is something interesting: http://www.ics.com/technologies/qt_google_apis |
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| 09:19.20 | ladoga | yesterday i packaged yle-dl script for harmattan. it installs fine from command line, but when i try to install it from harmattan UI the system tells me "Can't install" "Invalid installation package" |
| 09:19.51 | ladoga | http://www.saunalahti.fi/ladoga/harmattan/yle-dl/ |
| 09:20.08 | ladoga | so what's the problem |
| 09:23.35 | ladoga | also once installed it doesn't appear in Applications->Manage applications' list of installed packages |
| 09:24.33 | ladoga | any help appreciated |
| 09:32.25 | ladoga | by harmattan UI i mean clicking .deb file from file box, fennec or similar |
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| 09:45.58 | rzr | itsnotabigtruck, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1226156#post1226156 |
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| 10:00.40 | ladoga | rzr: any ideas on above? |
| 10:05.33 | rzr | Section: user/* ? |
| 10:05.38 | rzr | in debian/control ? |
| 10:06.38 | rzr | ladoga, i'll try it later |
| 10:06.50 | ladoga | http://pastebin.com/qad5v65W |
| 10:07.59 | ladoga | so should i put "Section: user/*" there? now it has "Section: web" |
| 10:08.04 | ladoga | thanks, no hurry |
| 10:11.04 | ladoga | while I'm at it I might change Priority: to extra too. Seems more fitting. |
| 10:26.18 | rzr | ladoga, do u use git or other vc ? |
| 10:26.56 | ladoga | no. I'm complete noob in this |
| 10:27.23 | ladoga | just needed this script myself so decided to package it |
| 10:27.54 | ladoga | but I'm sure many finnish users find it very useful |
| 10:28.54 | rzr | well i am trying to rebuilding it the way it is |
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| 10:29.40 | ladoga | thanks |
| 10:30.41 | rzr | http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ladoga/harmattan/N9-notes |
| 10:30.47 | rzr | is this on maemo wiki ? |
| 10:31.04 | ladoga | i don't know...just made it for myself |
| 10:32.44 | ladoga | feel free to add into wiki if there's something useful |
| 10:33.03 | rzr | where is pstree coming from ? |
| 10:34.18 | rzr | ok built yle-dl_0.0.0-0~rzr1_all.deb |
| 10:34.24 | rzr | now i have to test it |
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| 10:36.39 | ladoga | pstree comes from original source http://www.thp.uni-duisburg.de/pstree/ |
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| 10:41.19 | rzr | ok i see |
| 10:42.18 | ladoga | those N9 notes i made for myself had one missing line..now corrected it |
| 10:42.50 | ladoga | i just uploaded it there as a friend needed help on something |
| 10:42.57 | ladoga | and forgot about it |
| 10:43.14 | rzr | Aegis Warning: Duplicate hash entries for 'usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/Crypto/Cipher/Blowfish.so' (/var/cache/apt/archives/python-crypto_2.1.0-2+maemo4+0m6_armel.deb) |
| 10:43.26 | rzr | scarry |
| 10:45.01 | ladoga | yes but thats something python-crypto is doing? |
| 10:45.23 | ladoga | it's in nokia repos..so blame them:) |
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| 10:46.04 | rzr | any url to test ? w/ that downloader |
| 10:46.23 | ladoga | i'll check if i can find some that work abroad |
| 10:46.35 | ladoga | many of these videos are restricted to finland only |
| 10:46.53 | ladoga | tho it might work either way |
| 10:46.55 | rzr | well it installed at least on mine |
| 10:47.06 | ladoga | havent tested it outside finland |
| 10:47.34 | rzr | yle-dl http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1544491 -o video.flv |
| 10:47.49 | rzr | working from france ! |
| 10:48.27 | ladoga | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:49.07 | rzr | i can see that blonde speaker |
| 10:49.14 | ladoga | it says on the page, "only viewable from finland" |
| 10:49.35 | ladoga | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:49.42 | rzr | app can be installed smoothly from shared repo using apt |
| 10:50.19 | ladoga | yes, dpkg worked so apt works, just not by clicking in UI |
| 10:50.53 | rzr | it's a bit risky since there are some dependencies |
| 10:52.06 | rzr | i made a litle changes |
| 10:52.13 | rzr | make clean on pstree |
| 10:52.16 | rzr | make distclean |
| 10:54.04 | ladoga | should i add those in my rules file? |
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| 11:11.02 | ladoga | rzr...thanks for tip about Section:user/web now it works as supposed :) |
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| 11:14.07 | rzr | you welcome |
| 11:14.36 | ZogG_laptop | sup |
| 11:26.48 | rzr | hi ZogG |
| 11:27.00 | rzr | ZogG, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1226156#post1226156 |
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| 11:27.57 | rzr | lol |
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| 11:32.51 | ZogG_laptop | rzr: you don't have thank button btw |
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| 11:42.15 | rzr | ZogG, i dont care , do you ? :) |
| 11:46.18 | ZogG_laptop | those people mostly count thanks to see how important person is, i still don't know hat Estel have done? |
| 11:50.20 | rzr | want i want to know is how pple will use those toys |
| 11:51.25 | ZogG_laptop | people who didn't use it to develp or maintain that much before wouldn't do it after =) |
| 11:53.24 | ZogG_laptop | let's say you deserve more than me and he didn't do more than i =) |
| 11:53.35 | ZogG_laptop | chem|st: Estel is sure good at talking |
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| 12:02.46 | jonni | tmo seems to be down for me. |
| 12:04.21 | ZogG_laptop | jonni: the story is simple, you remember community award judged by council? 4 of 5 councils put their names too and 4 of 4 names got in win list |
| 12:04.57 | rzr | about the council job, do you know what is it actually ? |
| 12:05.15 | ZogG_laptop | me? sort of |
| 12:05.31 | jonni | yes, I've been following the story, nokia should just have given the devices to all council, and only give 20 CA prizes and all this bitching would be smaller. |
| 12:05.34 | ZogG_laptop | they do hard job, at least councils before |
| 12:06.16 | ZogG_laptop | jonni: maybe, but it's not bitching, it's not like i would get this device, i just care coz it's wrong |
| 12:06.43 | ZogG_laptop | and no prev councils didn't do it for device or something and didn't get ones for being council |
| 12:09.15 | jonni | well yes community awards was more like maemo awards than harmattan awards, even my application was better that some some of the old maemo ones. But its ofcourse matter of opinions. Most of the council were voted by maemo people, thus they have maemo eyeglasses on, and dont prefer harmattan that much. |
| 12:11.07 | jonni | but in my eyes decisions have been made, and its not worth of second guessing. There still is the coding competition left for 25 new devices. And maybe someday there will be yet another community awards, atleast we can have our fingers crossed. |
| 12:13.48 | jonni | I can confess that I'm wearing harmattan eyeglasses, since I wasn't following fremantle community that much at all. |
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| 12:25.30 | rzr | at the same time inception and nitdroid are not projects in the interest of nokia ... so well we're already in bad shape |
| 12:25.40 | rzr | actually we're in no shape at all |
| 12:25.53 | jonni | In the other hand, if it would be someones job to follow and improve the community, some people would just receive devices outside the competition without questions. But nowadays marketing efforts are mostly targeting WP. This 100 devices did revive TMO quite a bit, but still its peanuts. |
| 12:54.12 | ladoga | nokia doesn't seem to know itself what's in interest of nokia :) |
| 12:55.45 | ladoga | judging by their actions from last year almost everything they do seems to have gone against their own interests |
| 12:55.59 | ladoga | and well in line with MS interests |
| 12:57.50 | ladoga | only sad thing about it is that N9 is the best phone for many...otherwise I would not care at all |
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| 13:01.27 | ladoga | but there is always community support and that is most important. |
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| 13:28.03 | ZogG_laptop | ladoga: when some people don't care if price goes to someone worthy but not them it's ok, but some people don't feel comfy when they work their asses off and who gets it is council |
| 13:31.41 | ladoga | ZogG_laptop: yes, I understand that. I was just talking about Nokia generally |
| 13:32.41 | ZogG_laptop | Nokia doesn't care |
| 13:32.42 | ladoga | i hope those prices you talk about to people who are most active/talented in the community |
| 13:33.35 | ladoga | ZogG_laptop: to way or another |
| 13:34.07 | ladoga | they've dumped pretty much everything linux related to please their new masters |
| 13:34.29 | ladoga | so i guess dos or don'ts of harmattan community wont interest them much |
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| 16:01.44 | Lava_Croft | as long everybody keeps blaming elop and ms |
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| 18:38.31 | ladoga | if anyone wants to watch spain-france on n9 you can do it with yle-dl :) |
| 18:39.27 | ladoga | stream adress is http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1561625/ |
| 18:40.29 | ladoga | and can be played with (k)mplayer while it's downloading and I guess with default video player too |
| 18:40.56 | rzr | i'd rather play "kick off" |
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| 18:43.20 | ladoga | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:55.51 | rzr | ZogG, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1226397#post1226397 |
| 18:58.40 | rzr | ladoga, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1226398#post1226398 |
| 18:59.45 | beford | seems like your thanks button mas missing for a while |
| 18:59.49 | beford | no rzr? |
| 19:00.57 | ladoga | thanks:) |
| 19:03.36 | ZogG_laptop | beford: step up on this thread btw if you care |
| 19:03.58 | ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: i think you should too, it's not too late |
| 19:04.41 | beford | i've already commented |
| 19:07.55 | ZogG_laptop | ok |
| 19:07.57 | ZogG_laptop | thanks |
| 19:09.45 | ladoga | rzr: do you have n9 too or only n950? |
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| 20:01.18 | djszapiN9 | beford, ping |
| 20:02.37 | djszapiN9 | jonni, ping |
| 20:03.29 | djszapiN9 | ieatlint, sup |
| 20:06.07 | ieatlint | tired, spent most of the day walking, just got back to hotel 5min ago |
| 20:06.41 | djszapiN9 | same here |
| 20:06.52 | beford | eere |
| 20:06.54 | beford | here* |
| 20:07.06 | djszapiN9 | though I am not so gentle to be in a hotel ;) |
| 20:07.42 | ieatlint | yeah, well, you also don't have jet lag and some other extenuating circumstances :P |
| 20:07.59 | djszapiN9 | heh |
| 20:08.31 | djszapiN9 | I am unsure what made me have a hefty dinner after the tons of food... :) |
| 20:09.13 | djszapiN9 | beford, just wanted to say thanks for wpr! |
| 20:09.23 | beford | what is wpr |
| 20:09.26 | beford | xD |
| 20:09.41 | djszapiN9 | wigi password recovery |
| 20:09.46 | djszapiN9 | wifi* |
| 20:10.10 | beford | ah its not mine , I just knew it was on the forums :P |
| 20:10.43 | djszapiN9 | yes, I know, but you mentioned to me anyway. ;) |
| 20:12.39 | ieatlint | so it wasn't until i stumbled upon it that i learnt what christopher street day is |
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| 20:12.55 | djszapi | ieatlint: great :) |
| 20:13.55 | ieatlint | yeah, was entertaining :P |
| 20:14.41 | djszapi | well, I am now trying to survive |
| 20:14.58 | djszapi | I actually ate a lot more for dinner than at the summit, and I did not spare the food out there either... |
| 20:15.01 | djszapi | :p |
| 20:17.01 | ajalkane | Is there any way I can ungoogle "christopher street day" from my computer and mind? |
| 20:17.46 | djszapi | fill up your mind with Lumia |
| 20:18.13 | ajalkane | Ah... I think I'll rather keep chirstopher street day in my memory. |
| 20:18.22 | djszapi | haha xD |
| 20:19.07 | djszapi | I realized at the summit, a lot of things are mismatching |
| 20:19.30 | djszapi | There is an enormous hype about Qt Android, but the situation: two people in pastime only. |
| 20:20.02 | djszapi | A lot of people were advertising Qt5 on Harmattan, but it is a pain in the ass to deal with (workflow, that is). |
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| 20:23.20 | ajalkane | The practical pain ia see of Qt5 on harmattan on my limited experience, is that there is no "store" that handles dependencies. And there is no other work flow well-defined by anyone yet. |
| 20:23.46 | ajalkane | Like downloading the missing qt5 libs to some place |
| 20:24.09 | djszapi | dependencies are overrated! |
| 20:24.20 | ajalkane | But I do think it's quite possible. Harmattan might even be the only mobile system to have Qt5 support :) |
| 20:24.32 | ajalkane | Even if unofficially. |
| 20:24.38 | djszapi | I wanna Qt6 actually. |
| 20:24.43 | Venemo_N9 | lol |
| 20:25.03 | djszapi | well, you know what happened at the desktop summit last year... |
| 20:25.18 | djszapi | gnome 3 was not even out (?), but they made a gnome 4 meeting |
| 20:25.20 | djszapi | :D |
| 20:25.35 | djszapi | or it had just been out. |
| 20:26.15 | Venemo_N9 | :) |
| 20:26.57 | djszapi | as far as I understood, a tons of stuff did not enter Qt5 |
| 20:27.02 | djszapi | that is important. |
| 20:27.13 | djszapi | , tons of stuff* |
| 20:27.15 | Venemo_N9 | actually, when Qt 4.6 was what everyone waited for, I jokingly said I'm waiting for Qt 5 |
| 20:27.43 | djszapi | that would have been probably a bad timing... |
| 20:28.07 | djszapi | Qt4.7 was a good playground for seeing how royal painy qt quick 1 was. |
| 20:29.09 | Venemo_N9 | yep |
| 20:29.13 | djszapi | let us hope the Qt Foundation will work out nice. |
| 20:29.24 | Venemo_N9 | btw, what didn't enter Qt 5? |
| 20:29.51 | djszapi | what was late for Qt 5 xD |
| 20:30.48 | djszapi | Also, the new signal/slot implementation is a hack |
| 20:30.50 | Venemo_N9 | eg.? |
| 20:31.17 | ajalkane | what's thy beef with the new signal/slot implementation? |
| 20:31.45 | djszapi | hmm, so you have not checked out the implementation... |
| 20:31.56 | djszapi | it is as far as I know a template hell |
| 20:32.12 | Venemo_N9 | hehe |
| 20:32.17 | djszapi | due to the fact, they had to copy paste methods around for different versions, like reference, not reference, different type etc |
| 20:32.30 | djszapi | essentially it is all cleaner with C++11 |
| 20:32.57 | Venemo_N9 | :) |
| 20:32.59 | djszapi | but yeah, it is nice the runtime stuff was turned into build time. |
| 20:33.31 | ajalkane | No I haven't checked the implementation. I thought you had an issue with how it's used as "end-user" coder |
| 20:34.34 | djszapi | come on, I am a hacker :) |
| 20:34.41 | djszapi | who cares about end user xD |
| 20:35.14 | ajalkane | hehe true that... send in the C++11 patch! |
| 20:35.27 | djszapi | end users are just the margin source of cumbersome troubles. :p |
| 20:35.56 | ajalkane | But I guess they're being conservative with C++11. it'll take a while until it's widely available. |
| 20:36.13 | djszapi | rough estimation was done by Thiago that about 50+ people would be needed in full time to just sustain the maintenance for this huge codebase ... |
| 20:36.27 | djszapi | (very rough estimation because three people calculated for CI etc...) |
| 20:36.37 | ajalkane | I think Elop just made the headcount about 5. |
| 20:37.02 | djszapi | it is funny that everybody blames Elop xD |
| 20:37.27 | ajalkane | He's the representative, even if the BoD is the real blame for the strategy |
| 20:37.32 | *** join/#harmattan tom___ (~tom@93.186.150.165) |
| 20:37.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops |
| 20:37.44 | djszapi | gradually disagree, sorry :) |
| 20:38.37 | djszapi | If there is no MeeGo, probably there is no Elop either |
| 20:38.39 | djszapi | IMO. |
| 20:38.40 | *** mode/#harmattan [+o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 20:38.43 | ajalkane | Anyway, I think the chances are, that if Elop is fired that means the course changes. |
| 20:38.54 | ajalkane | Sure, I agree on that. |
| 20:39.04 | djszapi | IMO MeeGo killed Nokia. |
| 20:39.16 | djszapi | actually, you are right because then Elop; |
| 20:39.23 | *** topic/#harmattan by DocScrutinizer -> A place for harmattan device and development discussions | Customers help customers on #N9, hurry and you're the senior member | Please stay on topic and no NDA stuff here | Developers : http://library.developer.nokia.com/ | http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page | logs: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | ~aegis-no-thanks | LATEST ~update | http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/nokia-re |
| 20:39.30 | djszapi | but the situation was worse by that time anyway. |
| 20:39.33 | DocScrutinizer | thought as much |
| 20:39.54 | *** topic/#harmattan by DocScrutinizer -> A place for harmattan device and development discussions | Customers help customers on #N9, hurry and you're the senior member | Please stay on topic and no NDA stuff here | Developers : http://library.developer.nokia.com/ | http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page | logs: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | ~aegis-no-thanks | LATEST ~update |
| 20:40.08 | djszapi | We should have had Maemo summit in Dublin, not MeeGo :D |
| 20:40.09 | Venemo_N9 | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:40.11 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer: let me fix that for you |
| 20:40.13 | *** mode/#harmattan [-o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 20:40.17 | ajalkane | Yes, it's true, I don't think MeeGo was a good thing at that point of time. |
| 20:40.49 | *** mode/#harmattan [+o hiemanshu] by ChanServ |
| 20:41.53 | *** topic/#harmattan by hiemanshu -> A place for harmattan device and development discussions | Customers help customers on #N9 | Please stay on topic and no NDA stuff here | Developers : http://library.developer.nokia.com/ | http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page | logs: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | ~aegis-no-thanks | LATEST ~update | http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/nokia-reportedly-scraps-meltemi/ |
| 20:41.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | watches excitedly how hiemanshu will "fix" the limited topic length |
| 20:42.13 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer05: there :P |
| 20:42.23 | *** mode/#harmattan [-o hiemanshu] by hiemanshu |
| 20:43.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 20:43.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | hiemanshu: thanks |
| 20:43.52 | djszapi | ieatlint: were you at the OpenVG session ? |
| 20:44.01 | djszapi | I was lolled when I saw the topic... |
| 20:44.10 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer05: why are you mutated? |
| 20:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ?? |
| 20:44.33 | ladoga | meego killed nokia only in a way that MS wanted it to be stopped |
| 20:44.58 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer05: DocScrutinizer and DocScrutinizer51, so many versions of you :P more like mutations :P |
| 20:45.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, that's not even all the clients I run |
| 20:45.47 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer05: get this thing that built exactly for this, its called a bouncer :P |
| 20:45.47 | ajalkane | MeeGo killed maemo's monumentum. Stalled toe progress. And thus time ran out and master Elop came in. |
| 20:45.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | but xchat and konversation still don't play together nice via ZNC |
| 20:46.11 | djszapi | perhaps it would have been if Intel had done actually anything in the meego project... |
| 20:46.12 | ajalkane | s/toe/the/ ... although "toe progress" is very epic" |
| 20:46.17 | djszapi | at least in the security fw. |
| 20:46.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the constant /who of konversation killed my xchat-n900 standby time |
| 20:46.22 | djszapi | better* |
| 20:46.24 | hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer05: use Quassel, there is a desktop client, and one for N900 too |
| 20:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | welllll... |
| 20:47.04 | djszapi | ajalkane: so have you ported the toggleavailable app to Qt5 ? :) |
| 20:47.13 | djszapi | does it now open at least up ? xD |
| 20:47.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's been something about quassel, what was it, what was it? |
| 20:47.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, needs a friggin RDBMS backend |
| 20:47.43 | ajalkane | My guess is that Maemo worked because it was a skunkworks kind of project. Once it became "proper" Nokia project in context of MeeGo it was suffocated by the bureacracy. |
| 20:47.52 | ladoga | i see it like this. meego is just a name...harmattan is could be as well..or even better called maemo. not much wasted there. |
| 20:48.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: you might be close |
| 20:48.30 | ajalkane | djszapi: hah, yeah, I guess that one would be about changing one include path to get Qt5'd :) |
| 20:48.53 | ladoga | MS though nokia-intel partnership goes against it's interests and pressured US shareholders to push Elop as new CEO against BoD's plans |
| 20:50.12 | djszapi | ajalkane: I wonder, if there is already any app in ovi store based on Qt5. |
| 20:51.00 | djszapi | I mean qtquick2 components based. |
| 20:51.05 | *** mode/#harmattan [-o RST38h] by ChanServ |
| 20:52.06 | ajalkane | djszapi: I doubt it... but if there were they'd most likely be some game for the extra performance. Otherwise it's too much hassle for too little gain. |
| 20:52.50 | djszapi | I disagree with the too little gain... |
| 20:53.00 | djszapi | it is always a big result to open the gates up... |
| 20:53.59 | ajalkane | I'm interested to hear about what you think are the big gains of qt5 in context of harmattan. I readily admit I know too little about it and am interested for other views. |
| 20:54.26 | djszapi | one very huge one is to not abandoned Qt5 on non-desktop. |
| 20:54.33 | djszapi | but at least for mobile phones. |
| 20:54.45 | djszapi | abandon* |
| 20:55.09 | ajalkane | Hmm... harmattan is nicle platform. |
| 20:55.13 | djszapi | not that this would be any usable currently on desktop either... |
| 20:55.14 | ajalkane | *niche |
| 20:56.02 | djszapi | well, another big gain, is to actually test the qtquick2 stuff |
| 20:56.08 | djszapi | with ready made component set etc |
| 20:56.21 | djszapi | see limitations that did not come up during the development etc |
| 20:56.39 | djszapi | Harmattan components are kinda ported. The desktop components have a long way to go yet. |
| 20:56.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | sighs about non-serverside /ignore lists |
| 20:57.38 | djszapi | mostly technologically looking forward. |
| 20:57.55 | djszapi | no real additional end user experience at this stage, I am afraid |
| 20:57.57 | ajalkane | looking forward to what? There's no future for Qt5 on mobile. |
| 20:58.14 | djszapi | Pardon ? Qt5 was designed especially for mobile as well. |
| 20:58.30 | ajalkane | Designed. Like a head was designed for Elop to axe. |
| 20:58.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: quite obviously the benefit of qt5 for HARM is _very_ limited, given the somewhat EOL character of whole platform |
| 20:58.40 | djszapi | actually the first research project, and why this was created, was NB. |
| 20:59.34 | djszapi | I am unsure you are aware of that, but Qt5 has been way behind the feature freeze. |
| 20:59.37 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: my point is rather that harmattan is a very niche platform, and Qt5 on context of niche platform is niche^2 |
| 20:59.43 | djszapi | the paradigm change will not be refactored by any sense |
| 20:59.52 | djszapi | so if Qt5 is out, it is gonna be out with this paradigm. |
| 21:00.04 | ajalkane | What's NB= |
| 21:00.05 | ajalkane | ? |
| 21:00.09 | djszapi | next billion... |
| 21:00.35 | RST38h | forget next billion |
| 21:00.40 | ajalkane | I guessed that, but the next billion's got the Elop Axe +5 of MS holy fire. |
| 21:00.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 21:00.53 | djszapi | ajalkane: irrelevant |
| 21:01.05 | djszapi | qt5 was born for primarily that case. |
| 21:01.14 | RST38h | the way things are going, the relevant question is who will go bust first, RiM or Nokia |
| 21:01.15 | djszapi | the paradigm and the whole vision was constructed upon that. |
| 21:01.40 | djszapi | were* |
| 21:01.47 | RST38h | farts every time he hears the word "paradigm" |
| 21:01.53 | ajalkane | djszapi: why is that irrelevant? If no one is using Qt5 on mobile, what use is it that it was constructed for that paradigm? |
| 21:02.04 | RST38h | Twice on the use of word "vision" |
| 21:02.08 | djszapi | ajalkane: because it is just simply not dead |
| 21:02.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 21:02.15 | djszapi | ajalkane: there is no qt5 running in KDE |
| 21:02.23 | djszapi | and way way long way we need to come up with. |
| 21:02.30 | djszapi | it is already used on Harmattan |
| 21:02.36 | djszapi | and as far as I see on Android |
| 21:02.45 | djszapi | recap: it is currently mostly only used on mobile phones. |
| 21:02.48 | RST38h | You have got a company that shed most of its R&D people, turned itself into a production outfit for Microsoft, making stuff nobody wants. |
| 21:03.19 | RST38h | And the funny part is that even Microsoft does not need what it does too much, with WinRT, Win8, and WP8 |
| 21:03.45 | ajalkane | I'm still not seeing any enormous gains on using qt5 on harmattan. The only gains you've outlined is for Qt5 to become better, if I understood correctly. |
| 21:03.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | and let me guess: still suggests to go "future", accomplish "visions", stick to "paradigms"? |
| 21:03.50 | RST38h | What vision? What paradigm? What next billion? The Meltemi people have been let gojust recently. |
| 21:04.03 | djszapi | ajalkane: well, yes and no. |
| 21:04.14 | RST38h | The QML-base Qt stuff is pretty much a disaster |
| 21:04.23 | djszapi | ajalkane: if Qt5 gets better due to the actual usage, of course it is gonna be better for Android etc |
| 21:04.42 | RST38h | In fact, every time someone says "we need to include JavaScript" it is a sure sign of disastr |
| 21:04.52 | djszapi | ajalkane: not to mention the new features there were nowhere in Qt. |
| 21:05.03 | djszapi | plus the less maintenance hell for many things. |
| 21:05.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: aaaah, of course. abuse a nearly dead platform to improve a nearly dead toolkit |
| 21:06.09 | djszapi | sure, you will not get anything by using opengl instead of opengl as an end user |
| 21:06.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | since the change from gtk to qt to qml wasn't enough to piss of every single developer on this planet |
| 21:06.35 | RST38h | Doc: you have forgotten two more steps |
| 21:06.39 | djszapi | but of course, that is not the only main point. |
| 21:06.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought as much, yes |
| 21:06.51 | RST38h | Doc: One is C# and the next one is WinRT |
| 21:07.37 | RST38h | I am sure making your device incompatible with any reasonable programming language made lots of progress for Microsoft and Nokia, vision-wise |
| 21:07.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, we're about to await winRT on HARM now? |
| 21:07.51 | RST38h | Doc: Oh, I am talking in general sense |
| 21:07.53 | ajalkane | I'm not sold on the utility of Qt5 on Harmattan on these arguments. Not until it's easy to deploy for end users as a dependency. And very easy work-flow for developers. Both are missing at the moment. |
| 21:08.05 | RST38h | Doc: If you are a Nokia developer, you are viewing Harmattan as just one generation of many |
| 21:08.12 | RST38h | Doc:And it does not look good either |
| 21:08.15 | djszapi | ajalkane: then you are not buying many things |
| 21:08.17 | djszapi | too many things IMO |
| 21:08.32 | djszapi | KDE for Harmattan, Qt for Android, KDE for Android ... etc in the long queue... |
| 21:08.47 | RST38h | And why do you need KDE for Android? |
| 21:08.48 | djszapi | KDE on Windows, Mac... and what not. |
| 21:08.53 | RST38h | Or even Qt for Android... |
| 21:08.57 | djszapi | RST38h: why wouldn't you? |
| 21:09.10 | RST38h | I can provide lots of reasons why I would NOT |
| 21:09.12 | djszapi | if there is a ready made logic in KDE that you can just wrap with a new UI ? |
| 21:09.17 | ajalkane | These all seem like something 99% of Harmattan users have no use for. |
| 21:09.30 | djszapi | ajalkane: KDE has no use ? :o |
| 21:09.31 | RST38h | djszapi: no such logic I can think about |
| 21:09.53 | RST38h | djszapi: given that Android has got many more apps than KDE has to offer |
| 21:09.57 | ajalkane | djszapi: KDE on harmattan is something I'm willing to claim 99% of Harmattan users will never install. If it ever becomes available. |
| 21:09.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | RST38h: wrong addressee to talk about logic |
| 21:10.16 | djszapi | ajalkane: then I have fake 40k downloads for just 2 KD Eapps. |
| 21:10.19 | djszapi | KDE apps* |
| 21:10.39 | *** join/#harmattan valtzu (valtzu@kapsi.fi) |
| 21:10.48 | ajalkane | djszapi: KDE is quite different than some applications that have been ported from KDE, aye? |
| 21:11.02 | djszapi | you do not understand what KDE is. |
| 21:11.23 | ajalkane | Might be. So you meant Qt5's utility is that KDE apps can be have on harmattan? |
| 21:11.34 | djszapi | no... |
| 21:11.47 | djszapi | It has been in a royal PITA to deploy KDE. |
| 21:11.50 | ajalkane | KDE doesn't use Qt5 at the moment, so what's the extra utility of Qt5 in that context? |
| 21:12.00 | djszapi | I have spent a decent amount of my life with working on that project, and managing people around |
| 21:12.04 | djszapi | but we did it! |
| 21:12.14 | djszapi | and many users are happy, and we got a lot of positive feedback. |
| 21:12.33 | djszapi | you were claiming, if it is not two minutes to deliver, it is not worth it. |
| 21:12.39 | djszapi | I am saying, I disagree with that. |
| 21:12.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | mumbles "don't feed the troll", blinks, talks to himself "idiot! nobody will listen to you" |
| 21:13.04 | djszapi | ajalkane: KDE (frameworks branch) does use Qt5. |
| 21:13.39 | djszapi | actually that branch only uses Qt5. |
| 21:13.45 | ajalkane | Those were not my exact words. But you're close to it if you modify your algorithm with benefit/cost analysis |
| 21:14.10 | ajalkane | Does your apps use Qt5? |
| 21:14.12 | djszapi | in other words: |
| 21:14.21 | djszapi | KDE is probably a lot more painy to deliver than Qt, so what ? |
| 21:15.07 | ajalkane | djszapi: well, I'm glad someone has taken the painful road. Especially if it will make others to do similar work in the future easier. |
| 21:15.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: you're aware you discuss with a guy who probably still claims aegis is the greatest thing since Konrad Zuse |
| 21:15.46 | RST38h | Who is Konrad Zuse? Some mucho German deathcamp torturer? |
| 21:15.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | based on the proposition he contributed to it |
| 21:16.20 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: lol yeah... but well, I do agree in principle with him that aegis is good. But the platform security policy as implemented on Harmattan is stupid. |
| 21:17.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, then I guess in ~24 months you both will agree Qt5 on HARM also is as great as aegis, only the way it got used by app devels made it suck donkey balls |
| 21:18.16 | RST38h | btw, deploying kde apps without deploying the whole thing is very very difficult |
| 21:18.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki zuse |
| 21:18.30 | RST38h | and deploying the whole thing makes it very very unusable |
| 21:18.49 | djszapi | RST38h: for you, but not for tons of users who were happy. |
| 21:19.23 | RST38h | people get happy over stupidiest of reasons... |
| 21:19.34 | djszapi | ah, yeah KDE is a crap, I forgot. :) |
| 21:19.42 | RST38h | no, not crap |
| 21:19.44 | djszapi | I brainwashed them in fact :D |
| 21:19.57 | RST38h | just designed to be used standalone |
| 21:19.59 | ajalkane | lol... I think even today that Qt5 on Harmattan would be great. It just would have to be made practical. And it's not that. Nokia Store nor apps4meego support dependencies. And no one has made easy workflow for sharing the Qt5 libs. It needs to be easy for developers and users to get any usage. |
| 21:20.16 | djszapi | ajalkane: you are wrong |
| 21:20.30 | djszapi | I have just said, we did make a nice workflow for this, even very well documented. |
| 21:20.49 | ajalkane | djszapi: can you point me to the documentation? |
| 21:21.37 | djszapi | ajalkane: sure, here you go: http://community.kde.org/KDE_Mobile/Harmattan#Packaging_your_KDE_Mobile_application_with_shared_libraries |
| 21:21.57 | djszapi | I can even cross-link tons of examples that implemented that. |
| 21:22.17 | djszapi | and of course, there is always the ministro way. |
| 21:23.07 | djszapi | btw, I do not think apps4meego is any good |
| 21:23.09 | djszapi | for the mass. |
| 21:23.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: but wait, 24 months from now harmattan is dead like a a dinosaur turd fossil, thanks to Nokia discontinued the OVI signing shit that's needed for anything on HARM to work, thanks to insane aegis concept of centralized trust chain |
| 21:23.30 | djszapi | what is not in ovi, that does not matter to me unless the apps4meego guys get the client built into the firmware which is very unlike. |
| 21:23.49 | ajalkane | djszapi: thanks... but isn't it waste of precious device space to include the same libs on every app? |
| 21:24.37 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: can inception/open kernel be used to get around that shit? Nokia's going down very soon anyway. |
| 21:24.38 | djszapi | ajalkane: well, the answer is quite obvious |
| 21:24.56 | djszapi | ajalkane: 1) 2.8M/usr/lib/libQtCore.so.4.8.1 ( for instance ) |
| 21:24.59 | djszapi | 2) Ministro way |
| 21:25.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: it probably can, not though for the Nokia core apps |
| 21:25.06 | djszapi | I personally like the bundled stuff |
| 21:25.18 | djszapi | and I dislike distracting workflows etc |
| 21:25.25 | djszapi | but that is what you can do anyway |
| 21:25.38 | djszapi | sure, you could become a cooker chef, if you dislike the reality. |
| 21:25.47 | djszapi | but I still like hacking anyway, and this is what can be done anyway. =) |
| 21:26.40 | ajalkane | Sure can be done... but I seriously doubt anyone would want to include multi megabyte libraries in their application unless they get big practical gains for the application... not just some stuff that helps Qt5 become better. |
| 21:26.44 | djszapi | or shall I do ... what ? Lumia ? iPhone ? |
| 21:26.59 | djszapi | ajalkane: all the KDE apps do |
| 21:27.06 | djszapi | works fine without any issues |
| 21:27.13 | djszapi | I cannot share your worries at this point. |
| 21:27.34 | ajalkane | for KDE apps it's probably a practical thing. |
| 21:27.36 | *** join/#harmattan DrGrov (~C.J@a91-153-77-41.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 21:27.37 | djszapi | and this is not just done by KDE anyway |
| 21:27.48 | djszapi | practically by any application using additional dependencies. |
| 21:28.14 | djszapi | I do not really see the difference between KDE and Qt in this regard... |
| 21:28.45 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: that sucks. You're saying that once Elop's axe decapitates Nokia's head, the core apps won't work anymore? |
| 21:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 21:29.15 | ajalkane | Damn annoying... |
| 21:29.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | they won't cease to work, but quite obviously you can't re-install them |
| 21:29.25 | djszapi | inception has been a big hack anyway |
| 21:29.37 | djszapi | nobody cared about nicely making a community kernel. |
| 21:29.43 | djszapi | which would have been the clean way anyway. |
| 21:30.02 | *** join/#harmattan piggz_ (~piggz@host-92-18-167-58.as13285.net) |
| 21:30.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ////IGNORE!!!!! |
| 21:30.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | dmanit |
| 21:30.36 | djszapi | funky thing is that, people complain, but they do not actually do almost anything against what they dislioke. |
| 21:30.39 | djszapi | dislike* |
| 21:30.40 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: Is that a big problem? I mean, in the worst case you can feflash the fw |
| 21:30.42 | djszapi | just trolling. |
| 21:31.00 | ajalkane | s/feflash/reflash |
| 21:31.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you reflash the firmware, where from will you get the additional apps? |
| 21:31.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | those which need any friggin aegis tokens |
| 21:31.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | or whatever that'S called |
| 21:31.56 | djszapi | token is an entirely distinct thing... |
| 21:32.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | where will you publish your new apps? |
| 21:32.21 | djszapi | ajalkane: so what do you propose ? |
| 21:32.27 | ajalkane | I'd thought either jonni's magical backup utility, or open kernel would help with that. But I know nothing about this subject. |
| 21:32.30 | djszapi | keep complaining, life sucks ? |
| 21:32.35 | djszapi | like people with aegis, and do nothing against it ? |
| 21:32.55 | djszapi | I am inclined to do actually something with the current ingredients anyway |
| 21:33.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure you can install the (actually existing, nicely made) openmode kernel, but then again your whole aegis crap will go pooof |
| 21:33.02 | ajalkane | djszapi: no, I actually propose people experiment with Qt5 and hopefully come with a good workflow for it. It doesn't exist yet. |
| 21:33.20 | djszapi | ajalkane: what exactly does not exist ? |
| 21:33.25 | djszapi | I have just told you the workflow. |
| 21:33.30 | djszapi | what you can do. |
| 21:33.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | incl all the apps that depend on aegis |
| 21:34.00 | ajalkane | djszapi: that workflow is KDE specific. We need easy, QtCreator based workflow that's easy for anyone getting their feet wet with harmattan development |
| 21:34.16 | djszapi | it is not. |
| 21:34.30 | djszapi | This theory has nothing to do with KDE. |
| 21:34.36 | djszapi | same applies to Android Qt, etc. |
| 21:35.09 | djszapi | we just happened to be the first group inventing these things. |
| 21:35.23 | *** join/#harmattan hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 21:35.28 | ajalkane | djszapi: I'm not a fan of the same multimega inclusion of libraries included in every app. Why not put them into some shared location? |
| 21:36.06 | djszapi | ajalkane: well, if you ignore me, then I am done. :) |
| 21:36.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, afk |
| 21:36.49 | djszapi | 22:24 < djszapi> 2) Ministro way |
| 21:37.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | since this chan is "KILL KILL!!!!" without proper ignore list, and friggin boring and mindboggling with |
| 21:37.27 | ajalkane | lol doc |
| 21:37.44 | djszapi | "...I personally like the bundled stuff..." "...and I dislike distracting workflows etc..." |
| 21:37.48 | ajalkane | djszapi: I do not know the Ministro way, but I guess it's the libraries shared thingy? |
| 21:38.05 | ajalkane | Is that some kind of installer that downloads the libs if needed? |
| 21:38.05 | djszapi | so, you would make your users life hard |
| 21:38.12 | djszapi | with additional todos |
| 21:38.21 | djszapi | who cares about 2 MB+ ? |
| 21:38.25 | ajalkane | No the point is, users life should be easy, and devs life should be easy |
| 21:38.30 | djszapi | or 3 MB+ or 5 MB+ now ? |
| 21:38.37 | djszapi | minority |
| 21:38.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody gives a shit about devels' life |
| 21:38.50 | djszapi | and of course stuff is not designed for the majority. |
| 21:39.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's all about the end result, as this isn't a development platform where the devel is the end user |
| 21:39.30 | djszapi | ajalkane: yes... in Alice's world... |
| 21:39.37 | djszapi | you can make dev's life easier here or users' |
| 21:39.45 | djszapi | I prefer users' life having simpler. |
| 21:40.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | yet Nokia went over the top regarding this paradigm |
| 21:40.44 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: except the devels themselves :). I sure as hell don't have time to run through hoops to get some "latest gratest" working, unless there's a real good reason for it |
| 21:40.48 | RST38h | farts |
| 21:42.04 | ajalkane | djszapi: I dunno... to me those are pretty big sizes. Especially as 3mb/5mb is just the core library. Then there's the others libs on top of that. |
| 21:42.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: then stick with ... gtk? MTF? maybe even Qt? |
| 21:42.19 | djszapi | ajalkane: again who cares ? |
| 21:42.31 | djszapi | until there are tons of applications, when the need arises for fixing ? |
| 21:42.37 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: On Harmattan QML + C++ works well |
| 21:42.38 | djszapi | We are talking about boosting a project |
| 21:42.42 | djszapi | walking step by step |
| 21:42.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | as there's never been a reaaly sound reason for all this framework_of_the_month madness |
| 21:43.01 | RST38h | sighs and notices how they are talking about completely wrong things |
| 21:43.06 | djszapi | and "sure as hell", bundled stuff is way easier to deal with for end users Joe |
| 21:43.13 | RST38h | The topic should be making/keeping project RELEVANT |
| 21:43.19 | djszapi | than getting dependencies right "on their own"./ |
| 21:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | wonders how to make his farts relevant |
| 21:45.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | as yet another dalvik-2-epigone on a walking dead platform like HARM foir sure isn't |
| 21:45.15 | ajalkane | djszapi: I can only talk about myself, but I'm not going to arbitrarily make my application 10-20 times its size just to boosting Qt5 project, unless my application uses something that benefits greatly from that increase in size |
| 21:45.51 | djszapi | well, you will not help Qt5 make a success that way :) |
| 21:46.06 | djszapi | but I do not worry too much about your involvement anyway. |
| 21:46.19 | itsnotabigtruck | when does the ovi x.509 certificate expire |
| 21:46.35 | itsnotabigtruck | when do the repository signing gpg keys expire (if they ever do) |
| 21:46.55 | djszapi | we will still do the job. |
| 21:47.01 | djszapi | since we like Qt anyway. |
| 21:47.34 | ajalkane | djszapi: Even if I would use qt5, my contribution would not make qt5 success. I simply don't have time to contribute to qt5. If I was paid to work on Qt related technology, things would be different. |
| 21:48.23 | djszapi | perhaps, you do not know what contribution means. |
| 21:48.36 | djszapi | or rather: you define that differently than the rest of us, contributors. |
| 21:48.46 | ajalkane | Perhaps |
| 21:48.58 | djszapi | contributor is even any simpler tester, bug reporter, etc |
| 21:49.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ajalkane: why should your contribution to HARM / maemo help qt5 anyway? what's the benefit for HARM in that? |
| 21:49.33 | *** join/#harmattan heymaster (~heymaster@78.61.212.188) |
| 21:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, have all those customers bought N9 to support qt devels or what? |
| 21:49.59 | djszapi | to be honest, I have not felt recently this hostile atmosphere towards Qt5 recently, but whatever. |
| 21:50.20 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: I know too little about all the details of Qt5, but from the little I know the main advantages of Qt5 on Harmattan would be efficiency of QML and 3D. Basically QML based games would benefit.' |
| 21:50.37 | djszapi | ajalkane: absolutely wrong |
| 21:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | to make qt5 a better framework, and devels' life a breeze |
| 21:50.45 | djszapi | that is the only thing which would not change most likely. |
| 21:50.56 | djszapi | opengl remains opengl like I siad. |
| 21:51.02 | djszapi | said* |
| 21:52.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | suggests a short look into python history, and (lacking) success of python3, and maybe learn from the sad story |
| 21:52.45 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer05: But really when you get down to it, my interest of Qt5 on harmattan is because I got into the Maemo summer '12 Qt5 device program. That's the basis of my interest in it. |
| 21:53.12 | itsnotabigtruck | oh shit |
| 21:53.16 | ajalkane | That's why I'm looking into it, and trying to see if there's some smart way to go about it |
| 21:53.20 | itsnotabigtruck | there's 4 harmattan repo signing keys expiring in 2012 |
| 21:53.30 | itsnotabigtruck | october 3rd, specifically |
| 21:53.51 | ajalkane | october you say? Hmm... I'm smelling a master plan somewhere in Elop's nest. |
| 21:53.52 | itsnotabigtruck | the appsformeego key doesn't expire until 2020 and the maemosw and genss keys don't ever expire |
| 21:54.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | itsnotabigtruck: goood! so maybe just maybe Nokia will refresh them before they fire the only guy knowing how to do that |
| 21:54.07 | itsnotabigtruck | the expiring ones are "nokia repository signing key Nv1" |
| 21:54.40 | itsnotabigtruck | so the question is whether those keys are actually used to sign the 001 etc. repositories |
| 21:54.43 | itsnotabigtruck | if not, then it's a false alarm |
| 21:55.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | but then, otoh, what's the use of signing keys when nobody is around to use them (you know it's always key pairs. sure you do) |
| 21:56.38 | itsnotabigtruck | to verify signatures generated via those keys |
| 21:56.49 | djszapi | ajalkane: well, essentially you look at Qt5 from different angle than us, hackers of that. |
| 21:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and what if you need a new signature? |
| 21:57.02 | itsnotabigtruck | which is needed as long as harmattan phones are around |
| 21:57.05 | itsnotabigtruck | and probably fremantle too |
| 21:57.08 | djszapi | we wanna make that a success, but you do not give a shit about that, just use that if it is ever available. |
| 21:57.35 | itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer05: what? as long as the content doesn't change, which probably won't be happening if nokia closes shop >_> |
| 21:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, on fremantle we live happily without any such signatures basically |
| 21:57.41 | itsnotabigtruck | the signatures are valid as long as the key is valid |
| 21:57.44 | djszapi | "nicely", that is. Whatever it means, I have not already said. |
| 21:57.53 | itsnotabigtruck | and i'd bet you'd find you're incorrect |
| 21:57.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are some, but not that essentially important to the whole thing |
| 21:57.58 | itsnotabigtruck | as with most things |
| 21:57.59 | ajalkane | djszapi: You summarized it it pretty well. |
| 21:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, thanks for reminding me |
| 21:58.35 | djszapi | ajalkane: well, it is fine. It is healthy, if you are not enthusiast and biased about Qt. :) |
| 21:58.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | another ignore |
| 21:59.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | friggin insane channel |
| 21:59.19 | djszapi | ajalkane: we are desperate dudes xD |
| 21:59.36 | ajalkane | djszapi: I like Qt, but my free time is really limited. If I had more time, I'd probably hack even on Qt. But now I barely have time to do some small applications. And even that half-assed. |
| 22:00.09 | djszapi | well, the reason does not matter in the end. |
| 22:00.26 | djszapi | you are not biased and enthusiast to put work into that for whatever reasons. |
| 22:01.00 | ajalkane | I'd like to put that on my tombstone. "ajalkane was not biased" |
| 22:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't it significant how those who shout at each other the most are most identical in their twisted ways |
| 22:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | heads over to tmo ca thread, fetches some more popcorn |
| 22:02.35 | ajalkane | I recommend some good wine with the popcorn! |
| 22:04.58 | djszapi | with your mentality there would be no KDE4 |
| 22:05.05 | djszapi | or perhaps even prior KDE versions |
| 22:05.30 | djszapi | when QGV came out, that was a royal PITA to use with full of bugs, on top of which, Plasma has been based. |
| 22:05.34 | ajalkane | I think there would. |
| 22:05.48 | djszapi | hard to use, so do not use. |
| 22:06.35 | djszapi | but even in this case, I do not see what is hard |
| 22:06.44 | djszapi | afaict, I have enumerated the available two approaches. |
| 22:07.11 | djszapi | both are pretty simple to implement. |
| 22:07.42 | ajalkane | Maybe I just suck, but I think it would take me many hours to get it working. |
| 22:08.12 | djszapi | to write one line for a shared library into your control file ? |
| 22:08.30 | djszapi | rules* |
| 22:08.33 | ajalkane | Remember, I don't use cmake |
| 22:08.56 | djszapi | what has debian packaging to do with cmake wrt the rules file and simple copy? |
| 22:10.15 | ajalkane | I dunno. Maybe the packaging is really easy. Frankly I haven't even gotten that far. I've used many hours just to get the qt5 cross-complation + QtCreator to work together well |
| 22:11.01 | djszapi | why would you cross-compile ? |
| 22:11.05 | djszapi | in the first place. |
| 22:11.21 | djszapi | they usually provide up to date qt5 packages. |
| 22:11.59 | ajalkane | If I'm using alpha releases I like to be able to compile them myself. Especially if I need to modify something. |
| 22:12.30 | djszapi | why would you modify something, if you do not have time? |
| 22:12.58 | ajalkane | if I have no other choice, ie. it will speed up my progress |
| 22:13.04 | djszapi | but I can understand your painy, if you do not do nicely... |
| 22:13.12 | djszapi | and you ignore the simplifcation they do... |
| 22:14.30 | djszapi | perhaps, you could try out the packages. |
| 22:14.32 | djszapi | you will love it. |
| 22:15.06 | *** join/#harmattan pinheiro (~pinheiro@bl15-14-104.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 22:15.10 | M4rtinK | from my perspective until there are Python bindings for it, Qt 5 is pretty irrelevant for me |
| 22:15.30 | ajalkane | Maybe. But I didn't have huge problems compiling them. I'm mostly battling QtCreator now. |
| 22:15.41 | djszapi | ajalkane: lol... |
| 22:16.02 | djszapi | M4rtinK: that makes no sense |
| 22:16.20 | djszapi | I mean python is obviously not available for something which is not even released or close that anyway |
| 22:16.30 | djszapi | to* |
| 22:16.54 | djszapi | but yes, there are people already making researches afaict |
| 22:17.11 | *** part/#harmattan DrGrov (~C.J@a91-153-77-41.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 22:17.24 | djszapi | ajalkane: drop qtcreator |
| 22:17.32 | djszapi | your problem is that crapcreator, not qt5! |
| 22:17.48 | ajalkane | haha, might be |
| 22:17.56 | djszapi | too bad we have had to spend few hours to localize the real problem... |
| 22:18.05 | djszapi | which is unrelated to qt5... |
| 22:19.21 | *** join/#harmattan DrGrov (~C.J@a91-153-77-41.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 22:19.22 | M4rtinK | djszapi: yeah, I know, it would not be very wise to start building the bindings until things are more stabilized |
| 22:19.48 | M4rtinK | but the lack of bindings still means a can't use it at the moment :) |
| 22:20.05 | ajalkane | Well, IMO to gain in development popularity in harm it should be easy in QtCreator |
| 22:20.35 | djszapi | ajalkane: your problem is not with Qt5 |
| 22:20.40 | djszapi | your problem is with QtCreator. |
| 22:21.32 | ajalkane | My problem is with dev ease + user ease. And I don't even think I have real problem, as I think these can be solved. |
| 22:21.38 | djszapi | It is not something many people working on Qt5 including me will ever fix this for you. |
| 22:21.47 | djszapi | simply because many qt devs dislike qtcreator. |
| 22:21.49 | *** join/#harmattan NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD287A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 22:22.10 | ajalkane | I bet the QtCreator folks are in love with it |
| 22:22.25 | djszapi | then butter them up |
| 22:22.44 | djszapi | cannot find pleasure in helping with this, L( |
| 22:22.47 | djszapi | :) |
| 22:22.48 | ajalkane | Too late, Elops's coming with an axe |
| 22:23.50 | M4rtinK | I think dependency handling is more serious that Qt Creator support |
| 22:24.14 | djszapi | you mean "than" or "supports" ? |
| 22:24.33 | M4rtinK | *than |
| 22:25.01 | djszapi | and what is incomplete or incorrect what I mentioned about that issue afore ? |
| 22:27.00 | M4rtinK | I'm just saying what I think is more important |
| 22:27.42 | djszapi | right, but what is not done deal about that? |
| 22:28.38 | djszapi | ajalkane: pretty please, just ask for the total removal of the project instead of help :) |
| 22:28.47 | djszapi | (qtcreator, that is lol...) |
| 22:29.09 | M4rtinK | if that KDE developed shared library scheme is generic enough for non-Qt apps, than everything is fine :) |
| 22:29.17 | ajalkane | djszapi: No need, Elop is slowly crossing from Finland's Lapland towards Norway as we chat |
| 22:29.30 | djszapi | M4rtinK: it is. |
| 22:29.43 | djszapi | ajalkane: who cares about Elop ? |
| 22:29.52 | itsnotabigtruck | yay, i got docscrutinizer to ignore me >_> |
| 22:30.01 | M4rtinK | ..but i still thing "proper" package management would work too :) |
| 22:30.06 | itsnotabigtruck | i am probably being a bit cranky right now :( |
| 22:30.15 | djszapi | ajalkane: if any, I would talk about MeeGo as the culsprit. |
| 22:31.34 | djszapi | ajalkane: yeah, I know many people were blindly following the "new wave" dictated, but that has not made that good itself. |
| 22:31.49 | ajalkane | Elop's the one swinging the axe. You know he likes to do it. |
| 22:32.09 | djszapi | Elop did not decide about MeeGo. |
| 22:32.42 | djszapi | which twisted Nokia into a kinda desperate state. |
| 22:33.29 | SpeedEvil | Things went icky with maemo way before Elop. |
| 22:33.30 | ajalkane | No matter... he's the executioner.' |
| 22:33.42 | itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: he clearly decided to abort meego |
| 22:33.50 | itsnotabigtruck | most decisions can't be traced all the way up to the ceo, but this one can |
| 22:33.51 | djszapi | ajalkane: it was a wrack at Elop times. |
| 22:33.53 | SpeedEvil | I mean - ovi store stopped working what - ~6mo in |
| 22:33.55 | djszapi | already. |
| 22:33.58 | djszapi | even before that. |
| 22:34.13 | itsnotabigtruck | also...what do you mean "ovi store stopped working" |
| 22:34.14 | itsnotabigtruck | what happened |
| 22:34.35 | SpeedEvil | itsnotabigtruck: Ovi store was for a while to be how commercial apps were distributed on n900 |
| 22:34.36 | djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: again, how cares about the meego cancellation ? |
| 22:34.54 | djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: the most appropriate question: why was MeeGo born in the first place ? |
| 22:35.11 | djszapi | mostly to kill Maemo totally. |
| 22:35.19 | djszapi | to commit suicide about the only proven platform. |
| 22:35.30 | djszapi | this makes me sad again :-S |
| 22:35.47 | itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: that sounds a bit conspiratorial...why would they cook up some fancy plan to "kill maemo" when it would easily do that on its own, with time |
| 22:36.10 | djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: N9 was (still is) people like |
| 22:36.13 | djszapi | it is shiny etc |
| 22:36.30 | djszapi | and this was achieved by 50% of available resources, if not more. |
| 22:36.34 | djszapi | and I am *not* speculating here. |
| 22:36.47 | djszapi | I *was* shared between the two projects. |
| 22:37.02 | djszapi | if not less* |
| 22:38.17 | djszapi | and even meego, why the darn loosy Intel ? :o |
| 22:40.50 | djszapi | at least not the rpi foundation, but not much better... |
| 22:44.26 | djszapi | Perhaps there were even big problems before establishing MeeGo, but that was surely a big head cut. |
| 22:44.59 | M4rtinK | and now for something completely different |
| 22:45.22 | M4rtinK | anyone got an idea how to add an element to MenuLayout ? |
| 22:45.52 | M4rtinK | I have a menu layout with a Quit button on Fremantle |
| 22:46.11 | M4rtinK | which is of course useless on Harmattan |
| 22:46.38 | M4rtinK | any way how to do this cleanly without using two almost similar MenuLayouts ? |
| 22:47.02 | *** join/#harmattan stroughtonsmith (~stroughto@mobile-198-228-210-044.mycingular.net) |
| 23:04.12 | djszapi | M4rtinK: sorry ? |
| 23:04.50 | djszapi | Could you please clarify what you mean ? |
| 23:04.51 | M4rtinK | djszapi: ? |
| 23:05.10 | M4rtinK | any idea about the MenuLayout ? |
| 23:05.39 | djszapi | well, I would like to help, but I have no clue what you are talking about. xD |
| 23:06.05 | djszapi | what is "MenuLayout" ? |
| 23:06.54 | M4rtinK | djszapi: I have this: https://github.com/M4rtinK/mieru/blob/master/gui/qml/MainView.qml#L235 |
| 23:07.20 | M4rtinK | and want the "Quit" MenuItem to not show up on Harmattan |
| 23:09.30 | djszapi | M4rtinK: the good old qml ifdef question... |
| 23:09.44 | *** join/#harmattan lildeimos_ (~lildeimos@95.233.75.105) |
| 23:09.48 | djszapi | M4rtinK: well, make a separate item with your customized menu item |
| 23:09.55 | djszapi | having a boolean property for enabling the quit... |
| 23:11.27 | djszapi | hmm, that would not actually help |
| 23:12.02 | djszapi | well, you could have a C++ accessor for getting the platform. |
| 23:12.10 | djszapi | and set the visibl property of the quit thingy |
| 23:13.41 | M4rtinK | well, its not a problem to disable it |
| 23:14.18 | M4rtinK | but to do that without any graphical glitches |
| 23:14.32 | M4rtinK | if I set visible : false and height : 0 |
| 23:14.49 | M4rtinK | it won't show up but the menu bottom is not round anymore |
| 23:15.31 | M4rtinK | I've also tried adding the Quit button to a second menu layout anchored on the first one |
| 23:16.17 | M4rtinK | but that renders as two menu layouts with a small gap between them |
| 23:20.14 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@plexyplanet.org) |
| 23:25.07 | trx | M4rtinK did you try to destroy() it in some eg. onCompleted ? |
| 23:26.12 | trx | actually that won't work :/ |
| 23:28.18 | jonni | M4rtinK: its easier just to ifdef in c++ side, so it loads different mainview in harmattan. |
| 23:29.20 | jonni | although there is no harm having quit item in the menulayout, I usually keep the quit item there even on harmattan.. |
| 23:29.44 | trx | me too |
| 23:30.35 | M4rtinK | trx: it works. :) |
| 23:31.09 | trx | it does? |
| 23:31.18 | trx | thats.. unexpected :) |
| 23:33.59 | M4rtinK | and it does exactly what I wanted :) |
| 23:34.13 | M4rtinK | eq. no glitches and layout duplication :) |
| 23:34.31 | M4rtinK | lets call it "QML sculpting" :) |
| 23:36.08 | trx | great :) |
| 23:38.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi jonni! :-) |
| 23:38.43 | jonni | ;) |
| 23:39.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's living? |
| 23:41.13 | jonni | well life is what it is, I'm one of the 3700 who is getting booted in Finland in few months :). But interesting times ahead, 2 job interviews booked on next week. |
| 23:41.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | good, at least for the 2nd half of this mess |
| 23:41.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | good luck! |
| 23:42.29 | itsnotabigtruck | :( |
| 23:42.53 | M4rtinK | trx: this is how it looks like in the end: https://github.com/M4rtinK/mieru/blob/master/gui/qml/MainView.qml#L258 |
| 23:43.15 | jonni | and if I dont find anything in finland, then I can always move to south africa, amazon has open positions in cape town :) |
| 23:43.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey :-D |
| 23:43.58 | M4rtinK | trx: and thanks a lot ! I was just about to start with the ParrentChange animation :) |
| 23:44.05 | jonni | someone from there already asked if any of us would be interested ;) |
| 23:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonni: and, are you? |
| 23:45.04 | trx | M4rtinK thats exactly what i had in mind, but then i remembered that i have read in the docs that objects that you define staticaly in qml can't be destroy()'ed |
| 23:45.22 | trx | "it would produce an error" |
| 23:45.41 | trx | M4rtinK no problem, happy to help |
| 23:45.58 | jonni | Doc: heh, I have a wife, so if there salary would be 2x higher than normally then sure :) |
| 23:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, I see |
| 23:46.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I often felt similar |
| 23:47.00 | jonni | heh, ofcourse it could be possible, dont know what amazon offers :) |
| 23:47.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | last time when I considered to move to Tampere ;-D |
| 23:47.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I'm glad I didn't |
| 23:47.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 23:48.11 | jonni | well Tampere still seems to have plenty of IT startups and companies in the region. Its just nokia which isnt hiring anymore. |
| 23:48.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, and I'd for sure be in those 3700 as well, when I did |
| 23:49.09 | RST38h | RiM is still hiring =) |
| 23:49.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
| 23:49.47 | jonni | but RiM doesnt have office in finland :) |
| 23:50.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I recently chatted with them |
| 23:50.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't look where from the mail came |
| 23:51.05 | jonni | I didn try to download BB10 SDK and simulator, but failed miserabely to get SDK to deploy QML helloworld to simulator, so tooling side still needs improvements. |
| 23:51.06 | M4rtinK | trx: I haven't seen any errors - so it indeed seems to work just fine :) |
| 23:52.28 | M4rtinK | FYI: there is a working PySide port for BB10 & Qt-Components are also reportedly running on the Playbook just fine :) |
| 23:53.56 | RST38h | Doc, how have you managed to transdickify Estel? |
| 23:57.10 | *** join/#harmattan elldekaa (~hyviquel@80-186-91-107.elisa-mobile.fi) |