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| 08:29.09 | thebolt | hi |
| 08:37.59 | kblin | hi thebolt |
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| 09:41.51 | thebolt | hi kblin , how are you doing today? |
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| 09:47.27 | kblin | doing fine, I'm on vacation :D |
| 09:47.38 | thebolt | ah, nice :) where? |
| 09:47.46 | thebolt | or just not working? ;) |
| 09:50.15 | kblin | just not working |
| 09:51.45 | kblin | or rather, justnot doing stuff I'm being paid for :) |
| 09:52.22 | kblin | need to catch up on samba coding a bit |
| 09:52.42 | MatthewWilkes | I tell you what, I'm missing bank holidays |
| 09:52.55 | MatthewWilkes | it's a day off in England and I'm here at work, tired as hell |
| 09:54.37 | kblin | well, I would've been at work as well, but my co-authors ruined my vacation last week |
| 09:56.17 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: hehe, haven't had any public holidays here since i arrived (iirc) |
| 09:56.44 | MatthewWilkes | me either, stupid germany |
| 09:56.48 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Sorry to hear it |
| 09:59.21 | kblin | actually it's pretty nice to have this week off.. my gf is off at work, so I can spend my day coding, or restructuring the network or anything without hearing any complaints about not spending enough time with her ;) |
| 09:59.36 | MatthewWilkes | hehe |
| 10:00.04 | MatthewWilkes | I wish I was off work, sparkfun's order tracking has: Jan 3, 2011 9:29 AM On FedEx vehicle for delivery BERLIN DE |
| 10:00.31 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: what did you order? |
| 10:01.36 | MatthewWilkes | thebolt: Various arduino-related stuff to play with |
| 10:04.35 | kblin | hehe, I just decided to get an arduino uno board myself.. |
| 10:05.18 | kblin | mostly because I was getting another msp430-launchpad board from the same store, and it felt silly to pay as much for the shipping as I was paying for the board :) |
| 10:09.54 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Any idea how much people check unlicenced wireless in .de? |
| 10:10.55 | MatthewWilkes | eg, how angry would they be at using http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9097 in a city? |
| 10:15.58 | thebolt | kblin: i left my msp430 in sweden.. its somewhere in a box hm.. : |
| 10:17.19 | kblin | MatthewWilkes: that's bang within the GSM900 frequencies, so you'd be adding noise to the cell phones.. I think if that causes a service disruption, people'd be pretty pissed :) |
| 10:18.09 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Indeed, I did notice the GSM band was similar⦠|
| 10:18.15 | MatthewWilkes | I kinda want it, though |
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| 10:25.35 | thebolt | kblin: well, there are 900MHz bands that are valid in EU as well |
| 10:26.33 | gevaerts | I'd hope so. Mobile phones are allowed to operate :) |
| 10:26.46 | thebolt | gevaerts: mobile phones use licensed space ;) |
| 10:26.50 | thebolt | i refered to 900MHz ISM-bands |
| 10:27.02 | gevaerts | They're still legal! |
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| 10:30.14 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: think your best shot is xbee-pro 868 module |
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| 10:35.19 | MatthewWilkes | thebolt: I just got some on 2.4ghz for now |
| 10:35.26 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: okay |
| 10:35.36 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: radio links are a pain btw |
| 10:35.47 | thebolt | (i spent about a week researching them a few months ago) |
| 10:35.48 | kblin | thebolt: the ISM 915 band is region 2 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band |
| 10:35.53 | MatthewWilkes | thebolt: only if you're using them for serious things, I'm just playing |
| 10:36.15 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: true ;) |
| 10:37.01 | thebolt | kblin: that list sure miss some ISM bands (or rather, bands with ISM-like usage allowances) |
| 10:38.30 | kblin | I still guess there's a reason for zigbee to use the 868 MHz band in europe instead of the 915 MHz band |
| 10:39.06 | thebolt | yea, hm, seems that 915 isn't generally available.. in sweden part of 915 band is ok, but very low output power |
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| 10:40.07 | kblin | well, it's closest to t-mobile's frequencies here, I couldn't care less |
| 10:40.43 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: ideally i want a 5.8GHz downlink, digital, at 1Mbit/s or so of multiplexed datastreams with QoS, and then a 100kbit/s uplink.. but I haven't found anything for that yet :( |
| 10:40.55 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: i thin k, given a year or two I could make one |
| 10:41.02 | thebolt | but i don't really have time for that :P |
| 10:49.56 | thebolt | maybe end up with using 802.11a or so, but without any IP-stack or other problematic parts on top :P |
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| 16:10.59 | skfin | Hmmlol |
| 16:11.24 | skfin | If you create a gmail account for your google account during gci, melange doesnt let you log in anymore |
| 16:11.45 | skfin | With same account |
| 16:12.05 | skfin | Luckily you can remove gmail from your google account |
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| 16:39.36 | kblin | skfin: you could also email the melange devs and have them switch over addresses |
| 16:39.40 | kblin | it's a known issue |
| 16:39.58 | kblin | not easy to fix with appengine, IIRC |
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| 18:02.28 | summatusmentis | lh: ping |
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| 18:22.06 | lh | summatusmentis: pong. in the middle of a call. can we talk in a bit? will ping. |
| 18:22.43 | summatusmentis | lh: I've got about an hour, later in the day would work better for me |
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| 18:23.06 | lh | summatusmentis: perfect, will plan on my afternoon, california time. |
| 18:23.44 | summatusmentis | lh: cool cool, 4 or 5 EST should work ok for me |
| 18:24.08 | lh | summatusmentis: should be free then. done and done |
| 18:24.20 | summatusmentis | cool, tah |
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| 19:16.48 | [mharrison] | wishes job interviewers would stop asking him Big-O questions. We should be beyond that by now |
| 19:21.52 | thiago | how about how to reverse a string? |
| 19:22.13 | gevaerts | "Unplug the RAM chip and plug it in the other way" |
| 19:22.15 | Catfish_Man | nah, the best question is how to traverse a linked list |
| 19:22.25 | [mharrison] | lawl |
| 19:22.57 | [mharrison] | I was recently on my third interview (and the first face interview that I traveled 4 hours for) with a company and they were still asking me stuff like "What's the Big O of mergesort?" wtf? |
| 19:24.10 | Catfish_Man | [mharrison]: I could see a more useful discussion coming from "given quicksort's generally superior performance, what reasons might one have for preferring another sort? Which one(s) would be appropriate when?" |
| 19:25.06 | [mharrison] | Catfish_Man, yeah that's a more decent question |
| 19:25.46 | [mharrison] | But I'd like to hear more questions like "Here's a specific problem our developers are trying to solve. What are some of your ideas?" |
| 19:25.55 | [mharrison] | Something that moves beyond "Ok, prove you really studied what your degree says" |
| 19:25.59 | gevaerts | "Well, when one has to sort fish, one would obviously use bubble sort" |
| 19:27.10 | Catfish_Man | [mharrison]: to be fair, last month I did run across some 6+ year old code in the application startup path that was linear-searching a sorted list |
| 19:27.35 | Catfish_Man | one would think my predecessor would have known better |
| 19:27.52 | [mharrison] | lol |
| 19:28.14 | Catfish_Man | there was even a bug filed about it... 3 years ago |
| 19:28.32 | gevaerts | considers repeating his story about the date difference function that worked by adding one second to the first date, comparing for equality, trying again until the dates matched, and counting the iterations |
| 19:29.34 | gevaerts | Apparently the first version (which I haven't seen) even did the "add one second" by string manipulation, with carries and things implemented by hand |
| 19:30.05 | Catfish_Man | impressive |
| 19:30.16 | [mharrison] | o.O |
| 19:31.23 | gevaerts | All done for a real project by someone with an actual university degree |
| 19:31.40 | Catfish_Man | anyway, back in a while |
| 19:34.25 | [mharrison] | I wonder if there's a better answer to the question "What sorts of things do you want to work on? What are your career goals?" than "My eventual goal is a project manager/architect/design type position". The guy I just talked to seemed a little disappointed by that |
| 19:35.05 | gevaerts | He was still looking for someone who wants to be a trampoline artist |
| 19:35.36 | [mharrison] | lol |
| 19:36.06 | [mharrison] | He sort of hinted at "Well those decisions are left to the product management team here, and you'd be more responsible for implementation" |
| 19:36.32 | [mharrison] | Which I know, which is why I say it's an "eventual" goal. Even though I have project management experience, I wouldn't hire me for that position at this stage in my career |
| 19:39.01 | schumaml | the product management team manages projects, too? |
| 19:39.14 | schumaml | how are these terms defined there? |
| 19:40.40 | [mharrison] | schumaml, the product management team works with the customers, defines which features will and won't be added to an application, etc. I think there was some disconnect in what I said and what he thought I meant |
| 19:41.36 | [mharrison] | My thing is I want to design the different modules of a system, and define interfaces between the modules, not just have that design handed to me and be a code monkey |
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| 20:10.05 | kblin | ah, I don't know.. all good intentions go overboard if you're still sitting on code that should have shipped last week |
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| 21:05.36 | ThomasWaldmann | some native greek speaker reading? |
| 21:07.12 | ThomasWaldmann | we have 2(?) gci students coming from same ip |
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| 21:09.08 | ThomasWaldmann | slightly suspicious (but proxies/NAT exists) |
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| 21:23.07 | summatusmentis | lh: ping |
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| 21:27.07 | ThomasWaldmann | i need an admin :| |
| 21:38.53 | ThomasWaldmann | facts are cumulating that someone is cheating badly |
| 21:40.55 | lh | summatusmentis: pong, will pm you |
| 21:46.18 | Dark_Shikari | how can you cheat GCI by using the same IP? |
| 21:46.21 | Dark_Shikari | I mean, if you're doing the tasks.... |
| 21:47.16 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: there's a limit on how much you can "win" |
| 21:47.23 | Dark_Shikari | Oh, you mean to get more money |
| 21:47.23 | Dark_Shikari | aha. |
| 21:47.33 | kblin | I'd consider that cheating |
| 21:47.37 | Dark_Shikari | Yeah, that's cheating. |
| 21:47.45 | Dark_Shikari | I totally forgot that GCI paid money. |
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| 21:49.07 | ThomasWaldmann | it looks like someone might have multiple accounts and doing translation task using something like google translate |
| 21:49.45 | ThomasWaldmann | i have just checked with a native speaker and he tells it's total crap that can only come out of a machine |
| 21:50.06 | gevaerts | That's easy then |
| 21:50.34 | ThomasWaldmann | some other gci student who wanted to claim same task said something similar btw, but i wanted first a neutral opinion |
| 21:50.51 | gevaerts | Yes, clearly :) |
| 21:51.11 | gevaerts | But rejecting something because it's bad work is easier than because you suspect it's cheating |
| 21:51.54 | ThomasWaldmann | the problem might be that one usually can't really verify translation tasks, except if you have a native speaker at hand |
| 21:52.18 | ThomasWaldmann | so if all strings got translated, you usually assume that job is done |
| 21:53.00 | ThomasWaldmann | and if that person did that kind of "job" for other projects, too, he might have caused quite some harm |
| 21:53.02 | gevaerts | Yes, it's tricky |
| 21:57.45 | Dark_Shikari | ugh, yeah, translation tasks are easy to game |
| 21:58.36 | gevaerts | Sometimes people also don't realise you want people who actually know the language to do this |
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| 22:06.33 | ThomasWaldmann | gevaerts: """You should have good English skills (for understanding the original text) and very good skills of the target language (for updating/creating the translated text). Very good means that you are either a native speaker of the target language or have comparable skills. You also need to be good in orthography and grammar. """ |
| 22:06.47 | ThomasWaldmann | from our requirements section of the translation tasks |
| 22:07.53 | gevaerts | We (rockbox) have had people who kept submitting google translate stuff after we told them we didn't want that. No money involved there... |
| 22:08.50 | ThomasWaldmann | maybe they didn't understand english :P |
| 22:09.07 | gevaerts | Always a possibility :) |
| 22:09.14 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 22:09.31 | Dark_Shikari | reminds me of http://amaterasu.is.moelicious.be/blog/?p=771 |
| 22:09.42 | Dark_Shikari | (fun translation experiment where they pitted machines, vs humans with machines, vs novice humans, vs professionals) |
| 22:09.53 | Dark_Shikari | the result is often hilarious. |
| 22:10.13 | Dark_Shikari | The best part is how the machine-assisted humans accidentally invert the meaning of half the text. |
| 22:18.00 | ThomasWaldmann | hehe |
| 22:18.31 | ThomasWaldmann | any romanian, magyar, finnish native speakers here? |
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| 22:22.02 | Nightrose | skfin: ^ |
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| 22:25.21 | gevaerts | Nice stuff |
| 22:27.00 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: inverting the meaning of half the text? sounds like my latin translations back in school :) |
| 22:27.59 | gevaerts | does disagree with the bit that says there is humour in that second text though :) |
| 22:29.57 | Dark_Shikari | the google trnaslation is hilarious |
| 22:29.58 | Dark_Shikari | " |
| 22:29.59 | Dark_Shikari | Evening Call - "... ... it's a percentage that is opening completely man ..."" |
| 22:30.33 | gevaerts | Oh, yes, the wrong translations are funny |
| 22:30.42 | gevaerts | I just don't think the correct ones are :) |
| 22:30.50 | gevaerts | But maybe that's because I don't know any context |
| 22:30.56 | Dark_Shikari | well, yeah, it's not like it's a joke. |
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| 22:45.17 | andre__ | ThomasWaldmann: in that case the name(s) of the student is welcome, as we also had some Greek translation GCI tasks (but with a Greek reviewer, so it's unlikely) |
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| 23:01.28 | ThomasWaldmann | someone from gnome here? |
| 23:04.50 | ThomasWaldmann | magyar/hu lithuanian/lt spanish/es romanian/ro finnish/fi < any native speaker of one of these here? |
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| 23:07.23 | Dark_Shikari | ThomasWaldmann: I know a finn |
| 23:07.43 | ThomasWaldmann | can you get him here? :) |
| 23:07.43 | Dark_Shikari | Who also knows Swedish, Japanese, English, Russian... |
| 23:07.59 | Dark_Shikari | what do you need done? |
| 23:08.29 | ThomasWaldmann | looking at some translation (wiki page, diff), whether it is finnish or google translate output |
| 23:08.43 | Dark_Shikari | Ah, ok |
| 23:09.27 | *** join/#gsoc JEEB (~kanakana@unaffiliated/jeeb) |
| 23:09.32 | Dark_Shikari | summons the finn |
| 23:09.45 | JEEB | is summoned |
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| 23:10.40 | ThomasWaldmann | hi JEEB :) thanks for helping. |
| 23:10.46 | JEEB | no problem |
| 23:10.46 | ThomasWaldmann | JEEB: http://master19.moinmo.in/4ct10n/info/MoinI18n/fi?action=diff&rev2=288&rev1=284 |
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| 23:11.12 | JEEB | gets at it |
| 23:11.13 | ThomasWaldmann | this is a translation done by a gci student. yellow is deleted, green is new stuff from him. |
| 23:11.45 | ThomasWaldmann | i have no clue about finnish. |
| 23:12.33 | Dark_Shikari | They make good snipers. |
| 23:13.11 | ThomasWaldmann | JEEB: what i'ld like to know is whether this is from a human translator and of reasonable quality. |
| 23:13.19 | JEEB | I'm reading through it |
| 23:13.22 | Dark_Shikari | "Sivua %s ei voitu synkronisoida. Etäpään sivu uudelleennimettiin. Tämä ei ole vielä tuettua. Sivujen poistaminen lienee tarpeellista synkronisoinnin aikaansaamiseksi." |
| 23:13.32 | Dark_Shikari | It makes German look like a joke. |
| 23:13.50 | JEEB | yah, we have lots of stuff you can stick after a word |
| 23:13.51 | ThomasWaldmann | looks almost like base64 to me :D |
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| 23:16.54 | JEEB | msgstr "Tulosta diaesityksen" <- generally awkward... but scrolling down still, how much does the student have as per Finnish language education? |
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| 23:17.40 | andre__ | ThomasWaldmann: I'm from GNOME... |
| 23:18.37 | ThomasWaldmann | JEEB: i don't know. we require native speaker or equivalent. but i don't want to be picky about that. if it is acceptable, i can live with it. but i don't want a google translate copy and paste job. |
| 23:19.31 | JEEB | well, yeah -- I'm handling a Japanese localization of a subtitling application, as well ^^; |
| 23:19.48 | JEEB | anyways |
| 23:20.13 | JEEB | 2926-3022 on rev288 |
| 23:20.21 | JEEB | major awkwardness |
| 23:20.53 | JEEB | "Create redirect re-named pages?" |
| 23:21.13 | JEEB | that does indeed smell like machine translation |
| 23:21.38 | JEEB | or 2995, where there is an actual older translation |
| 23:22.07 | JEEB | Changes compared to the older version on the left part -> Change is oldest for checking in the left screen |
| 23:22.33 | JEEB | so yeah, def. went up a few notches on the awkwardness level |
| 23:23.12 | JEEB | It could of course be that he's just not good with the language, but a localization task just should not be done in such cases by such a person |
| 23:25.25 | JEEB | line 2227 is Edit a dia show -> Print <nothingness> of the dia show |
| 23:25.45 | Dark_Shikari | ThomasWaldmann: did he do multiple languages? |
| 23:25.59 | gevaerts | Maybe you could run some of the awkward ones through some online translators and compare? |
| 23:26.06 | Dark_Shikari | gevaerts: yeah, that's be a good idea |
| 23:26.10 | Dark_Shikari | see if it matches lol |
| 23:26.18 | gevaerts | If it matches, it's easy again |
| 23:26.31 | gevaerts | If it doesn't match it doesn't prove much of course |
| 23:26.41 | Dark_Shikari | there are many machine translators, yeah |
| 23:26.53 | Dark_Shikari | though maybe fewer for finnish than for say spanish |
| 23:27.51 | JEEB | it's... |
| 23:27.52 | JEEB | a match |
| 23:28.11 | Dark_Shikari | hahahahahahahahaha |
| 23:28.13 | JEEB | "Print slide show" to Google LT |
| 23:28.14 | JEEB | *TL |
| 23:28.19 | ThomasWaldmann | Dark_Shikari: i suspect so. different accounts. |
| 23:28.28 | JEEB | it will output exactly the same |
| 23:28.38 | Dark_Shikari | ThomasWaldmann: sounds like you can just ID him using google translate |
| 23:28.39 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 23:28.41 | Dark_Shikari | without knowing the language |
| 23:29.02 | gevaerts | Well, google translate may be correct every now and then :) |
| 23:29.19 | Dark_Shikari | Yeah, but you just translate multiple things |
| 23:29.22 | Dark_Shikari | if they all match exactly... |
| 23:29.22 | Dark_Shikari | lols |
| 23:29.46 | ThomasWaldmann | Dark_Shikari: the problem is that i don't know the target languages |
| 23:29.56 | ThomasWaldmann | so i have to ask people who do |
| 23:30.06 | Dark_Shikari | ThomasWaldmann: you don't need to know them |
| 23:30.09 | Dark_Shikari | send the english through google TL |
| 23:30.13 | Dark_Shikari | if it matches exactly, bam |
| 23:30.18 | Dark_Shikari | you don't need to know a language to do a strcmp |
| 23:30.29 | JEEB | yah, def. google tl |
| 23:30.36 | JEEB | he hasn't really modified a lot at all |
| 23:30.42 | JEEB | and where he has it's all crap |
| 23:30.48 | ThomasWaldmann | Dark_Shikari: that would be assuming that GT is 100% fail :) |
| 23:30.55 | Dark_Shikari | ThomasWaldmann: no, it isn't |
| 23:30.59 | Dark_Shikari | if a sample of, say, 5 exactly match |
| 23:31.01 | Dark_Shikari | it's google TL |
| 23:31.06 | Dark_Shikari | even if google TL was 100% accurate |
| 23:31.09 | Dark_Shikari | it'd still be google TL |
| 23:31.13 | Dark_Shikari | because no two people translate identically |
| 23:31.18 | ThomasWaldmann | ok |
| 23:31.25 | JEEB | yah |
| 23:31.33 | Dark_Shikari | (I don't know how much leeway one has in english->finnish, is it as much as english->japanese?) |
| 23:31.49 | ThomasWaldmann | JEEB: ok, so i can put this under major crap category? |
| 23:31.51 | JEEB | Yes |
| 23:32.19 | JEEB | Dark_Shikari, let's just say... that Google TL translates rather funny stuff with Finnish |
| 23:32.41 | ThomasWaldmann | looks like some student will win some negative scores soon |
| 23:32.46 | Dark_Shikari | ehehhehehe |
| 23:33.46 | ThomasWaldmann | "I was young, dumb - and needed the money." :) |
| 23:34.09 | Dark_Shikari | what country is the IP from? |
| 23:37.03 | gevaerts | Dark_Shikari: would using an automated translator and then checking the results be cheating? If not, five matches may still not prove much |
| 23:37.23 | Dark_Shikari | gevaerts: Yes. |
| 23:37.33 | Dark_Shikari | Human-assisted machine translation is awful. |
| 23:38.26 | gevaerts | true |
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| 23:39.02 | JEEB | you wouldn't end up with 100% matches in most cases as applications etc. tend to need overall image of what's happening |
| 23:40.15 | gevaerts | Also you probably won't just use one word samples. With those, all bets are off, but with longer phrases a good machine translation is indeed rather unlikely |
| 23:40.38 | gevaerts | *hopes* that most of those systems get "OK" and "Cancel" right |
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| 23:44.47 | Kovensky | < Dark_Shikari> the google trnaslation is hilarious <-- translation party! |
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| 23:48.26 | Dark_Shikari | gevaerts: it's actually unlikely they'll even get those right |
| 23:48.28 | Dark_Shikari | due to lack of context |
| 23:48.32 | Kovensky | < Dark_Shikari> Human-assisted machine translation is awful <-- idk if it's appropriate to link this here but: http://amaterasu.is.moelicious.be/blog/?p=771 |
| 23:48.39 | Dark_Shikari | Kovensky: I already posted it |
| 23:48.39 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 23:48.42 | Kovensky | lol |
| 23:51.22 | ThomasWaldmann | hehe |
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