| 00:28.43 | Wormy_semi_here | Liquid_Ink: 'ow long you stayin'round? |
| 00:28.54 | Liquid_Ink | Half an hour? |
| 00:29.10 | Wormy_semi_here | You might just get to see a 3D rendering of Linnormr then |
| 00:29.31 | Wormy_semi_here | Depends how long it takes me to photoshoip a starry background |
| 00:29.46 | Liquid_Ink | Cool |
| 00:29.51 | Wormy_semi_here | Also, I don't know why I speak in accent to you |
| 00:30.54 | Liquid_Ink | Because you can? |
| 00:31.05 | Wormy_semi_here | I guess so |
| 00:45.26 | Wormy_semi_here | About to upload |
| 00:52.09 | Liquid_Ink | The Linnormr page needs a better description of what it actually is. |
| 00:52.12 | Liquid_Ink | As in its structure |
| 00:54.28 | Wormy_semi_here | I haven't imagined that far yet, but yes |
| 00:54.53 | Wormy_semi_here | I imagine colonists have built numerous pockets in the ice |
| 00:55.07 | Wormy_semi_here | An use the ice as reaction mass fuel |
| 00:55.57 | Wormy_semi_here | Also, something I idn't bother modelling was the various shepard moonlets orbiting the structure like icebergs |
| 00:56.18 | Wormy_semi_here | Tried to use particles but they weren't rendering for some reason |
| 01:04.07 | Wormy_semi_here | The_Randomness: Check out my ring http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/File:LinnormrFinal.png |
| 01:04.18 | Wormy_semi_here | sounds wrong hur |
| 01:04.38 | The_Randomness | lol |
| 01:18.34 | The_Randomness | for some reason I can only think of a frosted sugar donut |
| 01:18.56 | The_Randomness | I think the last time I had one of those was like 5-8 years ago |
| 01:20.09 | Wormy_ | that's a long time to go without a frosted donut |
| 01:20.31 | The_Randomness | I actually don't remember the last time I had a donut |
| 01:20.36 | The_Randomness | they seem kind of gross to me now |
| 01:21.03 | Wormy_ | I tempt you to get a donut tomorrow |
| 01:21.16 | The_Randomness | :P |
| 01:21.51 | The_Randomness | even a lot of sweets seem pretty gross to me now |
| 01:22.01 | The_Randomness | anyway, want to continue talking about geography? |
| 01:22.18 | Wormy_ | Ring donuts in my country are second to jam / custard / chocolate filled donuts with powdery or granular sugar |
| 01:22.32 | The_Randomness | O_o |
| 01:22.55 | Wormy_ | Sorry, Drodo's got to me first regarding the Timonax story |
| 01:23.05 | The_Randomness | oh |
| 01:23.26 | Wormy_ | Sorry was you waiting all this time for me? |
| 01:23.29 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 01:23.40 | The_Randomness | although I was doing other things in the background |
| 01:23.47 | Wormy_ | Okay, I'll try and hop between both screens |
| 01:23.57 | Wormy_ | also, donuts http://thesweetandsimplekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/IMG_9883.jpg |
| 01:25.07 | The_Randomness | that's a lot of sugar lol |
| 01:25.15 | The_Randomness | anyway, let me check over logs rq |
| 01:25.24 | The_Randomness | Then I'll start leaving stuff here |
| 01:28.19 | Wormy_ | cool |
| 01:31.39 | The_Randomness | Right, so last time we talked it was about soil and stuff for a temperate region of that world I'm working on |
| 01:31.49 | The_Randomness | in particular about loess and such |
| 01:33.30 | Wormy_ | Indeed |
| 01:36.10 | The_Randomness | Also, another thought, the sapient species I have there has specific adaptations to surviving in the cold, but it seems to me that they wouldn't work that well if the seasonal variations are large like in the midwestern US (in particular, very cold winters) |
| 01:36.40 | The_Randomness | So, we could probably still use that stuff we talked about wrt climate stuff |
| 01:36.57 | The_Randomness | i.e. this is on/near the west coast of a continent |
| 01:38.51 | The_Randomness | ah right, and we also left off with me saying that there are some examples of non-glacial loess |
| 01:38.58 | Wormy_ | Hm... On that first point. The Neanderthals are thought to have adapted to cold, but its easy to forget the ice ages they lived through had warm interglacials like the one we're living in |
| 01:39.11 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 01:40.57 | The_Randomness | Thinking about the adaptation I have in mind, it seems kind of silly to me, but I'll throw it out here just so then I can hear what you think |
| 01:41.35 | Wormy_ | alright |
| 01:43.05 | The_Randomness | These guys are endothermic like us, and when it gets cold, their body uses more energy to stay warm (mechanism isn't determined yet) |
| 01:45.58 | The_Randomness | I'm not sure how far this could go though, or how well it could work before the cost becomes prohibitive, but I was also thinking that they may have moved towards warmer climates in the winter |
| 01:46.15 | The_Randomness | but then the question is, why don't they just stay there? |
| 01:46.22 | Wormy_ | So they make their bodies warmer by increasing their metabolism? Compared to human bodies conserving heat to stay warm (and of course using energy to do so). I'm no expert on biology but I guess its about addressing a comparison to look at feasibility |
| 01:46.39 | The_Randomness | presumably, yeah |
| 01:48.17 | Wormy_ | That question is something I find hard to understand about humans |
| 01:48.33 | Wormy_ | Why don't the Inuit go to live in warmer climates? |
| 01:49.10 | Wormy_ | Maybe they just find a mode of life and habit and found litle reason to change |
| 01:49.21 | The_Randomness | probably something like that |
| 01:49.57 | Wormy_ | I think extremes like glaciation will push most creatures to warmer climates |
| 01:50.36 | Wormy_ | Hugging where-ever its warm enough for food to grow or hunt |
| 01:51.25 | The_Randomness | local minimums come to mind |
| 01:52.02 | The_Randomness | wrt cost of living somewhere |
| 01:52.04 | The_Randomness | but anyway |
| 01:52.46 | The_Randomness | I think that this will work fairly well if the winters and such aren't too cold |
| 01:53.36 | Wormy_ | there could be migratory animals they follow too |
| 01:53.57 | The_Randomness | well, these guys are the obligate herbivores |
| 01:54.06 | Wormy_ | oh I see |
| 01:54.31 | The_Randomness | That's part of what's making me question this further |
| 01:54.38 | Wormy_ | hm, thinking about how herbivores evolve sentience might need some thought |
| 01:54.59 | The_Randomness | yeah, let's think about that |
| 01:55.51 | The_Randomness | I remember talking about this ages ago with someone I worked with on this species |
| 01:56.47 | The_Randomness | Had to do with conserving increasingly more energy to save for an increasingly larger brain and such |
| 01:59.03 | The_Randomness | If I'm remembering things properly |
| 02:02.17 | Wormy_ | Think I've heard similar things |
| 02:04.17 | The_Randomness | It's been almost two years though, so I don't remember much |
| 02:07.08 | The_Randomness | hmm, what other things could help with this |
| 02:09.15 | The_Randomness | Some things that are coming to mind: competition for access to resources, sophisticated social abilities |
| 02:11.24 | The_Randomness | Hunting doesn't seem like a productive path to take, since they can't eat meat without getting sick, unless it's to drive stuff out that would eat what they eat |
| 02:11.56 | Wormy_ | Also, what kind of herbivores are they? Grazers? |
| 02:12.16 | The_Randomness | ...I actually never determined that |
| 02:12.21 | The_Randomness | so, we should figure that out |
| 02:12.23 | The_Randomness | :P |
| 02:12.43 | Wormy_ | Things that limit migratory herbivores on the plains today is that you have to eat loads of grasses to get much nutrients out of it |
| 02:13.13 | Wormy_ | or calories |
| 02:13.19 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 02:14.04 | Wormy_ | And it seems most herd animals don't really communicate much other than to warn about predators |
| 02:14.20 | Wormy_ | they use numbers to survive rather than cleverness |
| 02:14.53 | Wormy_ | Though it turns out sheep are clever, so I'm being very general and potentially biased |
| 02:16.23 | The_Randomness | right |
| 02:21.18 | The_Randomness | A couple other things came to mind, how their relationship with other species could come into play (e.g. mutualistic relationships), or maybe the presence of a superfood of sorts |
| 02:22.41 | The_Randomness | With what I have established right now, apiculture is ubiquitous, and used for all sorts of things, even an early antibiotic of sorts |
| 02:22.54 | The_Randomness | So, I was thinking, could we extrapolate backwards with that? |
| 02:25.39 | Wormy_ | We could |
| 02:27.46 | The_Randomness | I wonder if we could relate this to the fact that the bees they use are incredibly docile |
| 02:31.10 | The_Randomness | Since I was basing these bees off of existing bees like these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingless_bee |
| 02:33.28 | Wormy_ | oh wow |
| 02:38.21 | The_Randomness | The "superfood" idea came from what little I know about avocados |
| 02:41.29 | The_Randomness | although avocados are really, really weird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avocado#Coevolution |
| 02:51.45 | Wormy_ | I'm off to bed now, gn |
| 02:51.52 | The_Randomness | gn |
| 02:51.56 | The_Randomness | will you be on tomorrow? |
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| 09:40.51 | Liquid_Ink | Hey there |
| 09:42.11 | Liquid_Ink | How are you? |
| 09:46.06 | Ghelae | Hello. I'm okay; how about you? |
| 09:47.03 | Liquid_Ink | Pretty good |
| 09:47.11 | Liquid_Ink | I've got some questions to put to you |
| 09:47.24 | Liquid_Ink | What would a large body of liquid methane look like? |
| 09:52.39 | Ghelae | I don't know off the top of my head. I suspect it would be like water, but more viscous. |
| 09:53.16 | Liquid_Ink | What about ammonia? |
| 09:53.26 | Ghelae | Liquid ammonia looks just like liquid water. |
| 09:54.03 | Ghelae | For methane, liquid hydrocarbons become lighter in colour and then transparent as they become shorter-chained, and I assume that doesn't change when they're made cold enough for methane to be liquid. |
| 09:54.34 | Liquid_Ink | I know what they both look like in general, but what would oceans and lakes of them look like? |
| 09:58.29 | Ghelae | Ah. So the question is, do they become blue in large volumes. |
| 09:58.31 | Ghelae | I have no idea. |
| 10:01.31 | Liquid_Ink | Okay |
| 10:02.19 | Liquid_Ink | Also, lifeforms that use liquid methane or ammonia as solvents would still be carbon based, wouldn't they? |
| 10:05.07 | Ghelae | Yes. |
| 10:05.26 | Liquid_Ink | Nice |
| 10:05.47 | Liquid_Ink | Do you know how to make the nice little planet pictures that Cyrannian does? |
| 10:05.50 | Ghelae | They wouldn't be oxygen-breathing, though. |
| 10:06.06 | Liquid_Ink | What would they breathe? |
| 10:06.34 | Ghelae | No; you'll have to ask him what he uses. |
| 10:07.19 | Ghelae | Something reducing rather than oxidising; I'd suggest hydrogen, but that requires a heavy planet to keep it in the atmosphere (although not quite as heavy as Earth would have to be if it's colder). |
| 10:08.04 | Liquid_Ink | Any other suggestions? |
| 10:09.10 | Ghelae | Okay, not that one. |
| 10:10.04 | Ghelae | Okay, they just suggest hydrogen. |
| 10:10.24 | Liquid_Ink | I see |
| 10:13.07 | Ghelae | The other good examples I've listed there are hydrocarbons - something short-chained like methane - and metals. |
| 10:14.03 | Ghelae | If you want complex life, I think hydrogen is your best bet. |
| 10:14.37 | Liquid_Ink | I see |
| 10:16.36 | Ghelae | Strangely doesn't seem to describe the respiration of either of them, unlike silicon-based life which it's very detailed with. |
| 10:18.45 | Ghelae | Titan's atmosphere has 0.2% hydrogen and that's a lot smaller than Earth, so you should easily be able to have a world that's a little warmer (if you want to) without making it excessively large. |
| 10:19.47 | Liquid_Ink | You go to great lengths to get me answers |
| 10:19.51 | Liquid_Ink | It's very kind of you |
| 10:27.04 | Liquid_Ink | I've given thought to other potential groups of species I could spread across the Gigaquadrant |
| 10:28.19 | Liquid_Ink | One idea was a coalition of species based off some particular Australian birds: cockatoos, lorikeets, spangled drongos, noisy minors, turkeys, and last and certainly least, the bin chicken. |
| 10:30.13 | Ghelae | That reminds me: while I wasn't paying attention to IRC yesterday, you said: "Okay I just had the best idea for alien wildlife" |
| 10:30.23 | Ghelae | Care to elaborate? |
| 10:30.38 | Liquid_Ink | Oh yes |
| 10:30.42 | Liquid_Ink | Moa constrictors |
| 10:31.01 | Ghelae | Giant flightless birds that use their necks to kill? |
| 10:31.48 | Liquid_Ink | Yes. |
| 10:34.24 | Ghelae | I see. If I were creative enough I'd come up with some other puns based on combining species like that. |
| 10:38.01 | Liquid_Ink | In the latest of politics news, one of our politicians has likened same-sex marriage to building planes with both wings on one side |
| 10:38.35 | Liquid_Ink | I forgot who it was. I bet it was Benardi |
| 10:38.53 | Liquid_Ink | Okay, I was wrong |
| 10:41.19 | Liquid_Ink | But back onto aliens |
| 10:41.36 | Liquid_Ink | I also thought I could do a cluster of species based on the zodiac signs |
| 10:42.04 | Liquid_Ink | Aquarius poses a problem in that it's just a guy holding water |
| 10:46.56 | Liquid_Ink | Though I could make a species based on the Kappa for Aquarius. That has some nice subtleties to it |
| 10:56.41 | Ghelae | What about Virgo? That's just a human too. |
| 10:57.43 | Liquid_Ink | I can go with a humanoid for that one. Perhaps fairly effeminate humanoids |
| 10:58.07 | Liquid_Ink | Aquarius is a human doing something in particular |
| 11:26.12 | Liquid_Ink | The Chinese Zodiac is also potentially useful |
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| 18:57.04 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 18:57.55 | Ghelaway | Hello. |
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| 20:23.56 | dino82 | hi |
| 20:24.00 | dino82 | oh new opening battles! |
| 20:24.02 | dino82 | Naice! |
| 21:51.31 | Wormy_away | Just sent an email to my lecturer to open the epistemological debate I failed yesterday when I my brain died mid-conversation |
| 21:52.01 | Wormy_away | Namely explanatory power |
| 21:52.53 | Wormy_away | I got a blank look and lost all confidence and cohesion |
| 21:52.58 | The_Randomness | rip |
| 21:53.17 | The_Randomness | Wormy_away: think you'll have any time today to continue our discussion from yesterday? |
| 21:53.27 | Wormy_away | I can argument from positions in writing or on online debates, but I struggle vocally |
| 21:53.31 | Wormy_away | Yes |
| 21:53.38 | Wormy_away | Actually |
| 21:53.40 | The_Randomness | :o |
| 21:53.54 | Wormy_away | Maybe in 1 to 2 hours |
| 21:53.57 | The_Randomness | sure |
| 21:54.04 | The_Randomness | I'll do this grading stuff then |
| 21:54.06 | Wormy_away | Working on my research ideas |
| 22:00.12 | Wormy_away | Another thing that interests me is that the way the research lecturer described induction was not unlike the way I understand the explanatory razor to work |
| 22:00.24 | The_Randomness | oh? |
| 22:00.39 | Wormy_away | But I'd only ever looked at the problem of induction and dismissed it as old hat |
| 22:01.54 | Wormy_away | I'll try and find it |
| 22:03.34 | Wormy_away | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:04.19 | Wormy_away | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:04.46 | The_Randomness | er, what's the explanatory razor again? |
| 22:05.25 | Wormy_away | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:06.26 | Wormy_away | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:07.01 | Wormy_away | There's a really short and sweet explanation here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_power#Overview |
| 22:10.19 | Ghel | So, as it says there, it's a way to help avoid ad hoc hypotheses and unfalsifiability. If a theory can't be modified easily, it can't continually evade falsification attempts. |
| 22:14.06 | Wormy_away | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:14.13 | Wormy_away | which explains it |
| 22:14.17 | Wormy_away | But yes |
| 22:17.08 | The_Randomness | I'll check it out in a little bit |
| 22:17.28 | Ghel | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:19.13 | Wormy_away | I meant it takes some thought, encase someone thought I was implying its trying to make theories unfalsifiable. But its actually doing the opposite in that its selecting only good explanations that are hard-to-vary |
| 22:20.45 | Ghel | Hmm, okay. |
| 22:21.24 | Wormy_away | I should have also added that we can empirically judge entities that are indirectly testable, as they provide constraints on data |
| 22:21.43 | Wormy_away | Like multiverses |
| 22:23.39 | Wormy_away | I think its sad that "falsification" is used to just pass off unseen areas of physics, that's not how Popper intended |
| 22:25.52 | Wormy_away | I think we've seen constraints on certain levels of SUSY from LHC data in the last couple of years |
| 22:29.43 | Ghel | A lot of physics models are more like predictions of facts than they are theories, and SUSY's experimental consequences are most obviously "we will observe supersymmetric particles", so in that sense they're things to be potentially verified, and only falsified if one is able to search the entirety of the possible parameter space. |
| 22:29.58 | Ghel | That is, one can verify facts and falsify theories. |
| 22:31.10 | Ghel | Any particular set of parameters for such a model is, in this sense, a theory on its own that is individually falsified, and the falsifiability issue with things like SUSY is that there are an infinite number of different theories. Not that anybody really defines theories in this way. |
| 22:32.46 | Ghel | So basically, you're right. |
| 22:36.42 | Wormy_away | I imagine if we were able to observe SUSY particles, confirming the predictions, then we'd have more certainty about the set of parameters to model those predictions. And then perhaps even more indirectly testable theories, like string theory, would have be constrained by the set of predictions. |
| 22:38.36 | Wormy_away | There is a line I want to examine, where theory and fact do blur. I'd tend to agree with both camps here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory |
| 22:39.32 | Wormy_away | Biological evolution is a set of facts, but our understanding of it is gaining ever more improvement, with relationships to other fields like complex systems |
| 22:40.00 | Wormy_away | and Thermodynamics |
| 22:40.30 | Ghel | Yes, if we measured SUSY particles that would also provide us with a narrow range of relevant parameters. |
| 22:41.01 | Ghel | On evolution, I'd say that a common misconception is that there's no such thing as "the theory of evolution". |
| 22:41.26 | Ghel | Biological evolution is trivially observable - it's a fact - from things like antibiotic resistance in bacteria etc. |
| 22:41.53 | Ghel | Then there have been multiple theories of evolution, that is, theories describing how evolution works, e.g. Lamarkism, Darwinism, the modern evolutionary synthesis. |
| 22:42.13 | Ghel | But then most people, when they say "the theory of evolution", really refer to the whole paradigm of evolution + deep time + common descent. |
| 22:42.48 | Wormy_away | Yeah |
| 22:44.45 | Wormy_away | On the subject of evolution, there's currently the debate between the gene-centered view of evolution and the extended evolutionary synthesis |
| 22:45.46 | Wormy_away | I'm not well versed enough to have an opinion on which is stronger, but both are throwing our interesting arguments. |
| 22:45.51 | Wormy_away | *out |
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| 23:04.42 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: I'll let you know when I'm done grading. I did work out the problem with that herbivorous species of mine developing intelligence in the background though |
| 23:08.20 | Wormy_ | Nice, yeah bleep me when you are done |
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| 23:39.53 | The_Randomness | This is taking way longer than I thought it would lol |
| 23:40.01 | The_Randomness | but at least it isn't *that* painful |
| 23:50.41 | Wormy_ | No rush |
| 23:51.51 | The_Randomness | I know, but I wasn't expecting this to take 2+ hours :P |
| 23:54.40 | Liquid_Ink | http://i.picresize.com/images/2013/02/06/BMhCv.jpg It occurs to me in the Firefly verse that the orbits of Georgia and Red Sun shouldn't be stable |
| 23:56.10 | Liquid_Ink | Also, a lot of these planets possibly don't have proper day-night cycles due to the presence of multiple stars |
| 23:56.52 | The_Randomness | mfw sharing orbits |
| 23:56.54 | The_Randomness | REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE |
| 23:58.30 | Wormy_ | Also the diaram visually gives me a headache looking at it |
| 23:58.57 | The_Randomness | also, is that an O/B star in the middle? |
| 23:59.23 | Wormy_ | I think it's meant to be |
| 23:59.39 | The_Randomness | :| |
