| 00:41.43 | Wormy_ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0fa7jeiHiM |
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| 08:01.58 | Liquid_Ink | Hello |
| 08:04.21 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 08:07.20 | Liquid_Ink | How are you? |
| 08:08.25 | Ghelae | I'm okay; how about you? |
| 08:09.15 | Liquid_Ink | Yeah, pretty good |
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| 10:10.52 | Liquid_Ink | I was thinking about a nanosuit like the kind the Nauceans use, and I've come across the issue of how those nanomachines would be powered |
| 10:11.44 | Liquid_Ink | From what I've read, energy puts limitations on the uses of nanobots |
| 10:12.16 | Ghelae | Yes; there's both the power source and overheating to contend with. |
| 10:12.58 | Liquid_Ink | Overheating hadn't occurred to me |
| 10:13.56 | Ghelae | Overheating is the problem with so much sci-fi tech that so often gets ignored. |
| 10:14.59 | Ghelae | The second skin nanobots aren't too extreme, though: they can shapeshift and act as powered armour. |
| 10:15.22 | Ghelae | The former shouldn't be too energy-intensive, and the latter makes it much like any powered armour. |
| 10:15.58 | Liquid_Ink | Wait, what's "the former" and "the latter" referring to here? |
| 10:16.39 | Ghelae | "the former" = shapeshifting, "the latter" = acting as powered armour |
| 10:17.47 | Liquid_Ink | You said they aren't too extreme? |
| 10:19.19 | Ghelae | Yes. It's not like they're behaving as replicators and making bullets out of thin air or anything like that. |
| 10:20.04 | Liquid_Ink | So how would they be powered? |
| 10:20.25 | Ghelae | How would you power anything? |
| 10:20.49 | Ghelae | They won't need their own power source if they're all connected to each other. |
| 10:21.13 | Ghelae | As in, each individual nanobot won't need its own individual source. |
| 10:21.24 | Liquid_Ink | I figured that. |
| 10:21.46 | Ghelae | So it's just one generator/reactory/battery/fuel cell for the whole suit. |
| 10:22.13 | Liquid_Ink | Any recommendations? |
| 10:22.41 | Ghelae | Depends on what physics is available. What kind of setting of this for? |
| 10:24.11 | Ghelae | If you want diamond-hard sci-fi, you're going to have to look into current cutting-edge battery technology and see how it's likely to end up. |
| 10:24.15 | Liquid_Ink | Well, obviously, they have nanomachines. Although that's implied to be a new development. |
| 10:24.30 | Liquid_Ink | Also, the planet has mostly be taken over by a robot uprising. |
| 10:25.01 | Liquid_Ink | Very similar to the Naucean thing, as I said, though I still insist I developed this idea independently. |
| 10:25.08 | Ghelae | So only a few decades in advance of modern-day Earth, then. |
| 10:25.14 | Liquid_Ink | Maybe I was subconciously influenced? |
| 10:27.19 | Ghelae | Still, the hardness of the sci-fi will tell you what power sources you can use. More speculatively, you could have small fusion reactors. Go straight into comic-book territory and you could power them with arc reactors. |
| 10:28.02 | Liquid_Ink | I'd like to avoid blatant rip-offs. |
| 10:28.05 | Ghelae | Power beamed from a larger, less mobile, generator is more plausible, but more of a logistical challenge when the suits struggle to function independently, although combine that with batteries and you may have something better than either on its own. |
| 10:28.44 | Liquid_Ink | I did have an idea for a solar collecting satelilite beaming power to the suit, but I thought it may have been overkill |
| 10:29.39 | Ghelae | If the nanobots are inside microbots, i.e. they're basically artificial cells, a rich supply of some chemical fuel might be sufficient, although it'll need something to get the fluid around quickly like a circulatory system. |
| 10:31.07 | Ghelae | Given that it can shapeshift, a load of tiny hearts shouldn't be much trouble. |
| 10:33.49 | Liquid_Ink | That sounds awefully complicated |
| 10:35.32 | Ghelae | Small pumps sound complicated? |
| 10:35.56 | Liquid_Ink | The nanobots being inside microbots |
| 10:37.25 | Ghelae | Perhaps not inside an actual mechanism, but like a cell in which the molecules are surrounded by membrane, which also has other molecules attached to it. |
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| 10:42.59 | Liquid_Ink | I'm not understanding what this does |
| 10:52.31 | Ghelae | It means you can have nanobots that convert the stable chemical fuel, something analogous to glucose, into something that the other nanobots can use more readily, analogous to ATP. |
| 10:54.08 | Ghelae | Holding it inside a membrane is simply because you're dealing with a liquid to supply the fuel. |
| 10:55.39 | Liquid_Ink | How long would that last? |
| 10:57.33 | Ghelae | How long does food last inside a person? |
| 10:58.47 | Liquid_Ink | I wouldn't actually know |
| 10:58.53 | Ghelae | It's going to depend on how much fuel you have, what fuel it is, and how much activity you're putting the suit through. |
| 10:59.25 | Ghelae | But you could guesstimate it as the time between eating a meal and feeling hungry, which is probably a few hours. |
| 11:00.49 | Ghelae | Perhaps if you actually did make the nanobots run on glucose and ATP, you could connect the suit up to the user's own bloodstream and use their own nutrients. |
| 11:01.06 | Liquid_Ink | THen they'd have to eat a lot |
| 11:01.16 | Ghelae | They'd have to eat *more*. |
| 11:01.35 | Liquid_Ink | Maybe I should clarify this more: the suit is a military suit meant to fight the robot uprising |
| 11:01.41 | Liquid_Ink | In a guerilla capacity. |
| 11:02.54 | Ghelae | So that's likely to be high activity for much of the time. But again, all it's doing is moving around (shapeshifting) and exerting lots of force (powered armour). |
| 11:03.04 | Ghelae | So these shouldn't be unreasonable energy demands. |
| 11:04.13 | Ghelae | I wouldn't even know how to go about calculating it, but I'd suggest something like the calorific requirements of elite endurance athletes. Whether this is consumed by the soldier or attached to the nanosuit in a fuel packet. |
| 11:05.50 | Ghelae | As for heat loss, a shapeshifting nanosuit should easily be able to increase its surface area by making its surface bumpy, spiny or fractal-ly. |
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| 11:11.12 | Liquid_Ink | Hey Wormy |
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| 11:18.35 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 11:23.47 | Liquid_Ink | I've been talking with Ghelae about nanosuits |
| 11:24.15 | Liquid_Ink | ... |
| 11:24.24 | Liquid_Ink | My new computer doesn't have pastie in its history |
| 11:24.27 | Liquid_Ink | Please link me |
| 11:26.07 | Liquid_Ink | Wormy_ |
| 11:26.40 | Wormy_ | I didn't see it |
| 11:27.00 | Liquid_Ink | Pardon? |
| 11:27.09 | Wormy_ | Oh |
| 11:27.20 | Wormy_ | http://pastie.org/ |
| 11:27.31 | Wormy_ | Keep in mind Pastue hasn't been working recently |
| 11:27.54 | Liquid_Ink | Oh dear |
| 11:28.09 | Liquid_Ink | I'll find a way around this |
| 11:28.11 | Wormy_ | they're upgrading servers or something so it hardly works |
| 11:28.22 | Ghelae | You could always copy+paste it into a titanpad. |
| 11:28.29 | Liquid_Ink | Okay |
| 11:28.44 | Wormy_ | There'a also pastebin |
| 11:29.06 | Ghelae | That's probably better. |
| 11:29.29 | Liquid_Ink | https://titanpad.com/Of3CRJiGHy Yeah well I already did Titanpad |
| 11:34.51 | Wormy_ | When Ghelaway gets back later I'd like to discuss spatial anomalies in SporeWikiverse that aren't traversal wormholes or black holes, or topological defects. |
| 11:35.24 | Wormy_ | I wonder if we can be a bit creative with hyperspatial physics |
| 11:43.17 | Liquid_Ink | If powered by an external generator, could the nanoskin be able to produce food to adequately feed the wearer? |
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| 11:49.50 | Liquid_Ink_ | I wouldn't have seen any answer, sorry |
| 11:55.39 | Ghelaway | Liquid_Ink_: It would also require a suitable supply of matter, and it both requires additional complexity (more nanobots to catalyse the correct chemical reactions) and adds additional waste heat. |
| 11:56.55 | Liquid_Ink_ | I'm concerned as to what my protagonist would eat while fighting a guerilla war against robots. |
| 11:58.04 | Ghelaway | You could have the food synthesiser as a seperate piece of nanotech-based equipment, although if it's sufficiently small it could presumably be attached to (and concealed within) the suit if necessary. |
| 11:59.28 | Ghelaway | Wormy_: A proper definition of "spatial anomaly" would be required to figure out that. :P |
| 12:00.44 | Ghelaway | My first thought would be a region of non-Minkowski (or, on an intergalactic scale, non-FLRW) geometry, but any gravitational field also fits that description. |
| 12:02.08 | Ghelaway | And as far as geometry is concerned, the only difference between a star and a black hole is whether or not the radius is greater than the Schwarzschild radius. So you need a definition that makes a star not an anomaly. |
| 12:07.56 | Wormy_ | Hm |
| 12:10.32 | Wormy_ | I guess that is because Minkowski geometry is flat, so anything with a gravitational field that bends it is like an anomaly. Still, black holes and stars bend space in the same kind of way, just at different extremes |
| 12:11.12 | Wormy_ | Presumably so would have massive spatial anomaly |
| 12:11.44 | Wormy_ | (of the type I'm thinking of, like a massive *unusual* disturbance to spacetime) |
| 12:14.15 | Wormy_ | One could invoke different vacuum states, or states where spacetime is different, But they would not coexist nicely with spacetime and either be converted, or convert normal spacetime at the speed of light depending which has the lower energy state |
| 12:29.34 | Ghelaway | The ambiguity in the word "unusual" is the problem. We could define "spatial anomaly" by a list of things that it's not - so not Minkowski *and* not R<r_s Schwarzschild-style metrics - otherwise... for example, would the space around a neutron star count as a "spatial anomaly"? |
| 12:31.14 | Wormy_ | "Spatial anomaly" defined as unusual regions of space could also count as too many things, not necessarily alien metrics, like a nebula of transuranic elements such as andasium |
| 12:31.43 | Wormy_ | But they might not be "unusual" to the Gigaquadrant now |
| 12:32.06 | Ghelaway | Black holes and wormholes are hardly unusual to the Gigaquadrant either. |
| 12:33.29 | Ghelaway | About the only similarity between black holes and wormholes that isn't shared by stars is how they change the motion of something moving within it. |
| 12:33.43 | Wormy_ | I'm thinking these alien metrics usually only manifest when ships are engaged at warp or hyperspace |
| 12:34.11 | Ghelaway | The motion of a massive object around a star could be simulated, at least qualitatively, with other forces, but you can't accelerate an object to FTL speeds without exotic metrics. |
| 12:34.22 | Wormy_ | yeah |
| 12:36.13 | Ghelaway | More specifically, both wormholes and black holes tilt light cones so that, relative to a distant observer, they appear to point in spacelike directions. If we limit the definition of "spatial anomaly" to this, we're basically limited to black holes, FTL drives, and time machines. |
| 12:37.20 | Ghelaway | I'm not sure how the concept could be generalised without removing the principle that it adds forces that can't be simulated otherwise. |
| 12:37.47 | Ghelaway | Perhaps wormholes to other universes, but that's not really different from other wormholes. |
| 12:38.39 | Ghelaway | Have you already looked through lists of sci-fi "spatial anomalies" e.g. on Memory Alpha and concluded there's nothing new there? |
| 12:40.21 | Wormy_ | Indeed, most either fall into these kinds: wormhole-type anomalies; regions of space hard to travel at warp (like our hyperspace fog); or poorly defined regions where spacetime m=geometry changes or folds into hyperspace |
| 12:40.53 | Wormy_ | And some just silly things like graviton ellipses |
| 12:43.06 | Wormy_ | Some of them have unusual effects though, like closed timelike loops, the shrinking of objects, or duplication of matter, or phantom spaces where universes get entangled |
| 12:43.29 | Wormy_ | or traps, a bit like black holes but without singularities |
| 12:45.05 | Wormy_ | We might be better off thinking about the physics of these effects, but most of those are already highly fantastical. I know that shrinking makes no physical sense, duplication defies physics, and quantum universe entanglement is very complicated (but essential to one theory about how true quantum computers would work) |
| 12:45.15 | Ghelaway | Timelike curves we've already mentioned. Traps sound a bit like reverse nightshades. |
| 12:45.42 | Ghel | i.e. stopping things from leaving rather than stopping them from entering. |
| 12:46.05 | Wormy_ | That's true, like a naturally forming metric shield? |
| 12:46.09 | Ghel | Yeah. |
| 12:47.27 | Ghel | Perhaps we could define a spatial anomaly as being something that doesn't (at least qualitatively) match with the gravitoelectromagnetic approximation, and if necessary we could say a second type (with a lot of overlap with the first) is ones that violate the averaged null energy condition. |
| 12:48.52 | Ghel | Since gravitoelectromagnetism treats gravity as a vector force rather than curved spacetime, we get things like Newtonian gravity and frame-dragging but not black holes and topology changes. |
| 12:49.12 | Ghel | Hence black holes and wormholes are spatial anomalies, but regular and compact stars are not. |
| 12:50.06 | Ghel | I don't know whether this would exclude metric shields, but if it does, that's where the additional category of ANEC violations comes in. |
| 13:03.38 | Ghel | Some of the Star Trek anomalies seem to violate the Gauss and Ampere laws in that they're regions of spatial distortion without an apparent source. That could well be simulated by dark matter hyperspace fog. |
| 13:05.41 | Ghel | Otherwise, yeah, the majority of them are either topology changes or nonsense stuff. |
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| 14:14.25 | Wormy_ | Sorry someone unexpectedly visited, and my laptop went to sleep |
| 14:14.40 | Wormy_ | But I saw all your comments up to 14:05 |
| 14:15.59 | Wormy_ | anyway, that is a fair assessment |
| 14:31.05 | Ghelaway | Fortunately I made no comments after that. |
| 14:40.37 | Wormy_ | It seems like there's nothing new to be made in SporeWikiverse physics |
| 14:40.49 | Wormy_ | In terms of these anomalies |
| 14:43.06 | Ghelaway | Not in terms of fundamental physics, but you were talking about coming up with new types of anomaly. |
| 14:52.44 | Wormy_ | Yes, if we can think of new consequences hyperspace physics, we might think of naturally occurring phenomena that might give rise to them too |
| 14:53.14 | Wormy_ | BUt Star Trek is obviously a bad basis, since we know some of those effect makes no sense at all |
| 15:01.29 | Wormy_ | G2g |
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| 21:08.18 | Ghelaway | Wormy_: We didn't look at any consequences of hyperspace - or other - physics. We just built up a definition of "spatial anomaly" so we can tell whether or not something we come up with is one. |
| 21:22.22 | Wormy_ | To be honest I was less interested in it being an "anomaly", or just a disturbance in spacetime that isn't star, collapsed into its Swartzchild horizon or otherwise |
| 21:22.42 | Wormy_ | *just a disturbance |
| 21:22.53 | Wormy_ | As we've seen, we hven't got many options |
| 21:24.39 | Ghelaway | That's because we haven't thought about it much. |
| 21:24.59 | Wormy_ | Indeed |
| 21:25.57 | Ghelaway | I don't think we can do a sort of classification-by-exhaustion on this. If you gave the equations of gravitoelectromagnetism to a physicist in the early 20th century and told them to come up with phenomena that would violate them, would they have thought of wormholes? |
| 21:27.33 | Wormy_ | Probably not, things like that are often unexpected |
| 21:28.13 | Wormy_ | Well, I don't know how obvious wormhole solutions would be too be fair |
| 21:28.20 | Ghelaway | Exactly. The idea of changing the topology of space isn't remotely like a vector force. |
| 21:31.12 | Ghelaway | So we have possibly four categories so far: "dark matter" (i.e. any gravitational effects without a visible source), nontrivial topology (e.g. FTL and time travel), black holes, and the entirely fictional metric shields. |
| 21:31.20 | Ghelaway | There could well be more. |
| 21:37.21 | Wormy_ | Is it reasonable to suppose there is a boundary between regions of normal and exotic metrics, like a ship crossing the folds of hyperspace? |
| 21:37.53 | Wormy_ | Or is that just the event horizon, which according to GR, isn't special for the observer crossing it |
| 21:50.44 | Wormy_ | test |
| 22:03.58 | Ghelaway | It would depend. In general, the equivalence principle would say no, but that's still a matter of scale: you'll notice if part of you passes through the event horizon of a black hole a metre across. |
| 22:07.33 | Cyrannian | Wormy_: want to meet up in STO? https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10153362 there's a giveaway |
| 22:08.43 | Wormy_ | Hm, not tonight. I'm away from home and my laptop will need to patch a year's worth of data |
| 22:08.47 | Wormy_ | but thanks |
| 22:09.25 | Cyrannian | no problemo |
| 22:10.33 | Ghelaway | Although not typically a part of general relativity, there might still be discontinuities in the metric. Like you'll also notice if you run into a cosmic string. |
| 22:13.35 | Wormy_ | A conical singularity must do wonders to your health! |
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