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| 08:00.04 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 08:01.33 | Liquid_Ink | Hello there |
| 08:01.37 | Liquid_Ink | How are you? |
| 08:02.20 | Ghelae | I'm okay; how about you? |
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| 16:06.50 | Wormy_away | Cyrannian: Gessing you saw the Star Wars trailer |
| 16:06.55 | Wormy_away | guessing |
| 16:07.25 | Cyrannian | I stayed up until 3 and sat through half an hour of confusing American Football to see it |
| 16:07.48 | Wormy_away | yew |
| 16:07.58 | Cyrannian | Exciting tiems |
| 16:08.54 | Wormy_away | I want to know what Kylo Ren means by saying what Vader started and couldn't finish... Conversion of the Skywalkers? |
| 16:09.48 | Ghel | Or killing all the Jedi? |
| 16:10.08 | Wormy_away | Oh yes, there's that |
| 16:10.27 | Wormy_away | I want it to be something new |
| 16:11.20 | Wormy_away | I have a feeling Skywalker had a twisted idea thaAt Sidious would teach resurrection so he's convert the Jedi he killed. |
| 16:11.29 | Wormy_away | *he'd |
| 16:12.09 | Ghel | What Vader started and couldn't finish was actually redecorating his house. He'd just finished wallpapering the lounge when he had to go the Death Star. |
| 16:12.14 | Ghel | How's that for something new? |
| 16:12.54 | Wormy_away | Well its not very exciting is it, having Kylo Ren watching paint dry. |
| 16:14.08 | Ghel | He gets rid of the wall between the kitchen and dining room, thus making a combined kitchen-diner, by cutting it away using his lightsaber. |
| 16:15.06 | Ghel | It's one of the most intense action sequences ever to take place in an interior design-themed movie. |
| 16:15.38 | Cyrannian | Ooh and by the looks of it, Starkiller Base looks as though it's an entire planet with a Superlaser built in |
| 16:16.23 | Wormy_away | Beat that Homes Under the Hammer or Escape to the Country |
| 16:16.29 | Cyrannian | http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b7/Battle_of_Starkiller_Base.png/revision/latest?cb=20151020135556 - le run de la trench |
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| 17:50.56 | The_Randomness | Cyrannian: http://i.imgur.com/Qqwy1V4.jpg |
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| 19:57.01 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: Did you hear about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZdXJQERHE |
| 19:57.27 | Wormy_ | Yes |
| 19:58.04 | The_Randomness | Whatever it is, it'll be neat to hear what it actually is |
| 19:58.04 | Wormy_ | Already nerdgasmd at it even though its probably not alien |
| 19:58.37 | Wormy_ | It could be something nobody thought of, or a very unusual coincidence |
| 19:59.25 | Wormy_ | *However*, I wouldn't be disappointed if not alien, it means our detection is getting better, and we may find more unusual things, maybe even technological |
| 20:01.04 | The_Randomness | Yeah |
| 20:01.29 | Ghelae | Detecting a group of exocomets would be a good achievement. |
| 20:01.54 | The_Randomness | Indeed |
| 20:02.29 | Wormy_ | I prefer Minutephyics' resolution to "Irresistable force meets immovable object", they are the same thing in different frames of reference https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/654337749202415616 |
| 20:02.41 | Wormy_ | Barring that, non-physical so don't contact at all |
| 20:03.00 | The_Randomness | same |
| 20:05.31 | Wormy_ | *un-acceleratable |
| 20:16.56 | Ghelae | By definition, if any force is irresistable than no object that it acts on is immovable, and vice versa, so the latter has to be true: for both to exist, they can't interact with each other. |
| 20:17.11 | Ghelae | And Minutephysics explains why they're both the same thing anyway. |
| 20:20.25 | Ghelae | Although if you consider an object that is unacceleratable due to having infinite mass, and then put it in a gravitational field, it's still going to move: even in Newtonian gravity, the infinite mass will mean it feels an infinite force that cancels it out. |
| 20:21.45 | Ghelae | Mind you, it would also be an infinitely-sized black hole. So your immovable object has to be immovable by some other means anyway. |
| 20:23.29 | Ghelae | How an immovable object moves in curved spacetime is left as an exercise to the reader. :P |
| 21:05.37 | Wormy_ | heh |
| 21:07.00 | Wormy_ | Now I'm in a sciencey mood, I'm quite excited by a question that popped into my mind yesterday |
| 21:07.32 | Wormy_ | Well when am I not in a sciencey mood hur |
| 21:09.05 | Wormy_ | There are all sorts of systems which are mathematically universal, Mandlebrot sets (contains all possible Julia sets), universal languages, computations and genetic evolution |
| 21:10.13 | Wormy_ | But they are all distinctly different. By definition, if a Mandlebrot set is universal, out in infinity it must also express a lot more than just Julia sets (I could be confusing mathematical and computatioonal universality here, if there is a difference) |
| 21:10.49 | Wormy_ | Likewise, so might these other systems |
| 21:11.57 | Wormy_ | So could it be that the structures in each universal set are ordered differently in infinity, and could there be a measure |
| 21:13.21 | Ghelae | I think you may be confusing different definitions of "universal", but what the definition of "universal" is that Mandelbrot sets fall under I'm not sure. |
| 21:14.56 | Wormy_ | Well, Stephen Wolfram seems to believe his software that like Mathematica which rely cellular automata will eventually find a description of the physical universe |
| 21:15.11 | Ghelae | There is a Julia set for every rational function, so if the Mandelbrot set does contain all Julia sets, that's not limited at all. |
| 21:16.41 | Ghelae | If you want to connect it to computational universality, you could probably contrive some relation involving how computers (not hypercomputers) are also limited to rational numbers. |
| 21:17.30 | Ghelae | So if a computer can compute every rational function, and a Mandelbrot set contains subsets for every rational function, there's some correspondance in their universality there. |
| 21:18.27 | Ghelae | That's a horrifically non-rigorous definition, but I think it works as a starting point. |
| 21:19.04 | Ghelae | I suppose I should say "universal Turing machine" instead of "computer" there as well. |
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| 21:20.47 | Ghelae | I'll just repeat everything I've just said. |
| 21:20.52 | Ghelae | There is a Julia set for every rational function, so if the Mandelbrot set does contain all Julia sets, that's not limited at all. |
| 21:20.55 | Ghelae | If you want to connect it to computational universality, you could probably contrive some relation involving how computers (not hypercomputers) are also limited to rational numbers. |
| 21:21.00 | Ghelae | So if a computer can compute every rational function, and a Mandelbrot set contains subsets for every rational function, there's some correspondance in their universality there. |
| 21:21.02 | Ghelae | That's a horrifically non-rigorous definition, but I think it works as a starting point. |
| 21:21.05 | Ghelae | I suppose I should say "universal Turing machine" instead of "computer" there as well. |
| 21:21.17 | Ghelae | Perhaps it should also be computing any number, while noting that rational functions can involve irrational numbers. |
| 21:21.17 | Wormy__ | Thanks |
| 21:22.47 | Wormy__ | So, it is a bit different to how I pictured it. Mathematical forms of universality can all be reduced to the iterations of a Universal Turing Machine, if they are computable. |
| 21:23.35 | Ghelae | Perhaps they're analogous in some way, yes. |
| 21:24.35 | Wormy__ | Yeah, I wouldn't state it in the way that Tureing Machines explain mandlebrots in and of themselves, but it works at a sort of meta-level |
| 21:25.32 | Ghelae | On something less major but also scientific, much like how I realised planck's constant isn't actually relevant for fundamental physics (being essentially just a conversion factor), I've also realised that, when expressed in terms of the most elementary quantities, neither the speed of light c nor time t appear in any fundamental equations except as a combination ct. |
| 21:26.18 | Ghelae | So it's the fourth/zeroth dimension, and c really is a conversion factor between units. Equivalently, a change in c would be identical to a change in distances or durations. |
| 21:28.23 | Wormy__ | woa |
| 21:29.24 | Wormy__ | So... In a universe where c is slower, distances and durations adjust so that there wouldn't really be a difference? |
| 21:30.13 | Wormy__ | Or have I completely misinterpreted that lol |
| 21:30.36 | Ghelae | There are a few ways of thinking about it. One is that a universe in which c is smaller is identical to a universe in which durations are longer. |
| 21:31.31 | Ghelae | So while you travel slower, the passage of time is equally slowed down and there's no measurable difference. |
| 21:33.05 | Ghelae | So yeah, you interpreted it correctly. |
| 21:33.35 | Ghelae | In terms of distances, you could say that distances are also shortened so that, while you travel slower, you have less far to go and so there's no measurable distance. |
| 21:33.54 | Ghelae | That requires a bit more thinking to work out why everything being closer together has no other effects. |
| 21:34.42 | Ghelae | But just as distances between objects are smaller, the distances between different parts of an object - and so the objects themselves - will be too. |
| 21:35.16 | Ghelae | no measurable difference* |
| 21:36.45 | Wormy__ | So in a universe where c is larger, you go faster, but distances would be further? |
| 21:37.09 | Ghelae | Yes. And so the sci-fi idea of increasing the speed of light so that spaceships can fly faster... actually means making everyone perceive time pass more slowly. |
| 21:38.17 | Ghelae | And having a finite region of space where c is larger would actually be a region where geometry is warped so distances are shorter. |
| 21:39.02 | Ghelae | I'm remembering a certainly non-canon sentence on the SporeWikiverse's intergalactic rifts about how the speed of light is faster there and trying to figure out how that would work in practice. |
| 21:41.04 | Ghelae | To get exactly the same thing I think you need *temporal* distances experienced in the rift to be longer, with passage of time slowed down (and that's essentially relativistic time dilation), so observers on the outside perceive FTL travel and observers on the inside don't notice distances being shortened by anything other than length contraction. |
| 21:43.13 | Ghelae | To an extent something like that would actually happen - gravitational time dilation means time will run more quickly far away from galaxies - but not to an extent where it would make much of a difference. |
| 21:44.50 | Ghelae | To appear to be FTL it'd need to be some kind of accelerating reference frame... |
| 21:45.27 | Ghelae | so basically you'd need your region of space to be filled with negative-mass matter so you have a repulsive gravitational field. |
| 21:45.48 | Ghelae | Eh, you can read it in the logs if you want to and you remember. |
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| 21:50.16 | Ghelae | In case you're wondering, my conclusion was that to make a region space where "c is larger so ships go faster", what you actually need is a region of very dense negative mass. |
| 21:51.14 | Ghelae | This causes gravitational time dilation in such a way that clocks appear to go waaaaaaaay faster inside than elsewhere. Then add relativistic time dilation to that and spaceships just go flying across it. |
| 21:52.17 | Ghelae | Actually, I'm not sure that's right now. |
| 21:52.31 | Ghelae | It's either that or exactly the opposite that you'd need. |
| 21:54.10 | Wormy_ | Sorry, I got distracted, I am intrigued |
| 21:55.18 | Wormy_ | This might not have made it to you |
| 21:55.20 | Wormy_ | [22:41] <Wormy__> Of course, we talked already about how the Silver Ghost's planck zero AI wouldn't work, but even if it magically could, it would probably still take forever to give an output by the sounds of things |
| 21:56.37 | Ghelae | No, that didn't get to me. I do remember some of that discussion. |
| 21:58.29 | Wormy_ | On a slightly different topic, I imagine an STL interstellar civilisation might have something better than ultra-fast time dilation or cryogenics |
| 21:58.57 | Ghelae | And super-long lifespans / virtual realities? |
| 21:59.12 | Wormy_ | If they had the technology to play around with mental states they could potentially slow down the perception of time and activity of persons inside |
| 21:59.15 | Wormy_ | Yes |
| 22:00.23 | Ghelae | You would also have to slow down the effects of time on the body as well. Slowed down perception will be of little use if they have to constantly eat to keep up with their much faster metabolism. |
| 22:00.41 | Wormy_ | That should be easy enough |
| 22:00.48 | Ghelae | Then again, some people would probably enjoy that. |
| 22:00.52 | Wormy_ | if you can change brains like that |
| 22:01.17 | Ghelae | You get to travel through space while binging on all kinds of foods at a rate you'd never be able to do normally. |
| 22:01.57 | Wormy_ | I think even I would like that |
| 22:03.07 | Wormy_ | On a larger scale, could an STL civilisation deal with fluidly changing the mindstates on different planets so that all observers feel that not much time has elapsed? |
| 22:03.48 | Ghelae | The problem with slowing down everybody's brain is that it allows anyone (perhaps a hostile outside force) with faster thinking to outcompete you. |
| 22:04.37 | Wormy_ | So a ship has one twin reaching a system that might take 10 years, in our perception. So all the planet-bound twin has to do, is make 10 years feel like 10 days |
| 22:04.41 | Wormy_ | Ah that's true |
| 22:05.12 | Ghelae | And even your civilisation, people will realise that thinking fast is going to help them. So individuals - like that person waiting for their twin to arrive - could opt for such a system. |
| 22:05.46 | Ghelae | But you'd have to autocratically enforce slowness (and have a fast-thinking defence system in place) if you want everyone to do it. |
| 22:06.23 | Wormy_ | The choice system makes more sense. Why should the whole planet wait for your twin to arrive? |
| 22:06.50 | Wormy_ | What if they are waiting for travellers who have shorter journeys |
| 22:07.38 | Wormy_ | The planet-bound twin will just have to bare missing out on 10 years of planetwide news |
| 22:11.12 | Ghelae | Presumably the travellers who have shorter journeys will also have their minds slowed down even when they get off the spaceship. Still, I don't recommend that system. |
| 22:12.16 | Ghelae | I imagine there'd be all kinds of systems of place: mind-slowing, bodily stasis, uploading, generation ships, and ultrarelativistic travel. |
| 22:12.44 | Ghelae | You can hardly enforce homogeneity efficiently across an interstellar STL civilisation. |
| 22:14.35 | Ghelae | Hopefully the generation ships would include cryopods etc so if anyone wanted to see a planet in a shorter time they could do so. |
| 22:14.44 | Wormy_ | They shouldn't need to anyway, the nature of durations for different travellers will probably effect different portions of society |
| 22:17.39 | Wormy_ | I was trying to make it so that a story with small STL civilisations could have space a opera-like genre. |
| 22:17.54 | Wormy_ | *a space opera |
| 22:20.50 | Ghelae | You can have space opera in a single star system. But space opera = getting from A to B rapidly doesn't go well with interstellar distances if you can't ensure everyone experiences high distance-to-subjective-time ratios. |
| 22:23.23 | Wormy_ | And like you said, all it takes is an enemy to play the system with their own ratio - to beat any enemy. Which wouldn't make for very cool space battles. Of course AI could protect the ship, but still |
| 22:26.17 | Ghelae | Also *everything* will go faster. If hours pass like seconds then you'd hardly even be able to perceive an aeroplane flying by if it's going fast enough to keep itself in the air. |
| 22:26.51 | Ghelae | To an extent the problem with AIs experiencing time faster also applies without humans artificially slowing down their own perception. |
| 22:27.26 | Ghelae | But while some entities speeding up their perception is one thing, expecting the bulk of the population to slow down theirs is unreasonable. |
| 22:30.28 | Wormy_ | There is also the issue with what kind of communication should be sent |
| 22:31.28 | Wormy_ | So if we imagine an autocratic society that roles Sol and Alpha Centauri, they would have to communicate in one big package rather than a constant stream of news, so that when a message is sent, the slow down begins |
| 22:32.24 | Ghelae | I'm not sure how it makes a difference if everything in society is slowed down. |
| 22:33.02 | Ghelae | But speech is a problem. Actually breathing in general is; your natural rate of ventiliation would be huge in subjective time, and you've got to oxygenate yourself somehow. |
| 22:33.22 | Ghelae | So maybe even binge eating like I mentioned isn't going to be an option. |
| 22:34.06 | Wormy_ | I imagine if you are a cyborg not really dependant on biology, stuff like that might be okay - and you could always make the experience of eating cake |
| 22:34.07 | Ghelae | Find another way of oxygenating your body and then you have to deal with speech. At "normal speed" you're going to take ages just making a single sound. |
| 22:34.14 | Wormy_ | *fake |
| 22:34.38 | Ghelae | And that's not considering whether or not pitch changes. |
| 22:35.37 | Ghelae | And when your characters are all cyborgs that don't breathe or eat and communicate by wi-fi, you're already about to fall out of the space opera genre. |
| 22:39.47 | Wormy_ | yep |
| 22:40.36 | Ghelae | I'm going to go now. Bye! |
| 22:40.46 | Wormy_ | bye |
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| 23:07.27 | Liquid_Ink | Hey there |
| 23:07.32 | Wormy_ | hi |
