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| 13:17.11 | r17_ | greetimgs |
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| 19:25.31 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 19:25.45 | Tybusen | Ello Ghel |
| 19:33.08 | Wormymcworm | hi |
| 19:35.05 | Wormymcworm | Ghelae: I think I'm closer to nailing on the head, the categoisation of emergewnt phenomena - not anything new is learned, but it helps break down the subject |
| 19:35.28 | Ghelae | All right. |
| 19:36.49 | Wormymcworm | First of all, defining the difference between chaos in classical systems, and unpredictability in quantum mechanics. |
| 19:37.28 | Wormymcworm | Can you think of any examples? - Classical systems are sensitive to the initial state, while quantum systems only cause small deviations from the final state. |
| 19:38.03 | Wormymcworm | Quantum systens are predictable in many interpretations, but intractable from a classical computational sense |
| 19:38.17 | Tybusen | ew quantum physics |
| 19:38.19 | Wormymcworm | Quantum computation may make such predictions tractable |
| 19:38.45 | Ghelae | Chaos and quantum indeterminacy aren't really directly related. The former is a result of high sensitivity to initial conditions, while the latter is due to the inherently probabilistic nature of quantum mechanical maths. |
| 19:39.14 | Wormymcworm | Classical physics is only an approximation |
| 19:39.34 | Wormymcworm | So perhaps chaos doesn't really exist in nature |
| 19:39.41 | Ghelae | The only resemblance there is that both are unpredictable, although quantum phenomena can themselves involve complicated equations that, like chaotic systems, are difficult to solve. |
| 19:39.54 | Ghelae | And no, you can have quantum chaos. |
| 19:40.12 | Wormymcworm | I was wondering about that, but isn't that just intractability? |
| 19:40.56 | Ghelae | Actually, looking at the Wikipedia page, it does seem to be about connecting QM to classical chaos. |
| 19:41.02 | Wormymcworm | A quantum computer performing on the multiversal scale would overcome many intractable problems. |
| 19:41.10 | Ghelae | But the intractability is really all I was thinking of. |
| 19:41.22 | Wormymcworm | I'm using the Many Worlds Interp btw |
| 19:41.37 | Ghelae | Such a computer as you describe should also be able to compute a classical chaotic system equally well. |
| 19:41.43 | Wormymcworm | Indeed |
| 19:42.15 | Wormymcworm | It would seem that, if quantum computers really do perform over the multiverse, classical chaos would be an approximation or illusion |
| 19:43.05 | Wormymcworm | Note that, I shall be looking at alternative interpretations |
| 19:44.01 | Ghelae | There's nothing illusory about sensitivity to initial conditions. It's just that a powerful enough computer, with enough knowledge of the precise values of the initial conditions, wouldn't find it to be a problem. |
| 19:44.57 | Ghelae | But it is still deterministic. That's the difference between it and quantum mechanics. |
| 19:45.32 | Ghelae | Well, certain interpretations of quantum mechanics, not that it makes a difference to the equations. |
| 19:46.24 | Wormymcworm | Yeah, determinism and predictability are not the same, it is possible to have determined systems even in classical mechanics that you cannot predict |
| 19:47.04 | Ghelae | Yes. Like chaotic ones. :P |
| 19:47.44 | Wormymcworm | Even the billiard ball computer becomes unpredictable. |
| 19:48.11 | Wormymcworm | And that is based on Newtonian mechanics |
| 19:49.11 | Ghelae | And that kind of thing is why we have statistical mechanics. |
| 19:53.53 | Wormymcworm | So I've been thinking of this so far |
| 19:54.54 | Wormymcworm | (Many Worlds) Quantum laws of motion can self-arrange into atomic matter |
| 19:55.23 | Wormymcworm | And permit the existence of a universal quantum computer in the multiverse, instantiated at the emergent level of matter |
| 19:56.39 | Wormymcworm | It also gives rise to emergent condensed matter systems |
| 19:56.50 | Wormymcworm | Classical physics - There is non-equilibrium thermodynamics, and non-linear dynamic systems theory |
| 19:57.10 | Wormymcworm | A lot of emergent properties belong here |
| 19:57.51 | Wormymcworm | More complex levels also permit the existence of complex adaptive systems - evolutionary processes |
| 19:59.48 | Wormymcworm | Somewhere between social sciences and physical chemistry, there is room for positive/negative feedback, especially in the biosphere, and involves many geophysical processes. This is where the non-human top-down causation sits |
| 20:00.26 | Wormymcworm | 'm not sure how to treat classical systems in the many worlds picture, perhaps each system is itself, a history that weakly interacts on the quantum scale |
| 20:00.56 | Wormymcworm | ultimately predictable and deterministic |
| 20:01.05 | Wormymcworm | but not so reductionist |
| 20:01.26 | Wormymcworm | since it takes brings with minds to purposefully construct a universal quantum computer |
| 20:01.36 | Wormymcworm | and it requires stable matter |
| 20:02.25 | Wormymcworm | There is some alternatives however |
| 20:03.00 | Ghelae | One definition of classical systems is that they are those in which we can take the time-averaged values of quantum mechanics as being the real values of the system, and so take the laws of motion to be those that describe the time-averaged values. |
| 20:03.51 | Ghelae | In a many-worlds interpretation, that might correspond to minimal splitting of the universal wavefunction (or individual paths are practically identical). |
| 20:05.36 | Wormymcworm | I'm not sure if in the modern sense, splitting does occur, and in fact, the whole multiverse was determined from the beginning of time, diverging as a finite but huge amount of universes, and infinite number of copies. |
| 20:06.18 | Ghelae | "Splitting" need not be interpreted in the literal sense. |
| 20:06.24 | Wormymcworm | To each history, there is randomness |
| 20:07.27 | Wormymcworm | There is another interpretation that implies emergence |
| 20:07.39 | Wormymcworm | In non-local hidden variable theories, and causal dynamic triangulation, laws are probabilistic, and even space and time is emergent (or space, in Lee Smolin's case). |
| 20:10.20 | Ghelae | I think the scales of emergence that I've used for classifying technology might be useful. |
| 20:10.29 | Wormymcworm | yeah |
| 20:10.48 | Wormymcworm | I'll look at those |
| 20:11.09 | Ghelae | I'll tell you them now since I don't think I've put them on the wiki. Firstly, I listed the elementary scale (although that itself being non-elementary and simply emergent is, as you mention, a possibility). |
| 20:11.38 | Ghelae | So that's mainly particle physics, really, although it can include classical fields as well. |
| 20:12.12 | Ghelae | Then there are the material scales, that deal with the results of collecting large numbers of bound states together. |
| 20:13.13 | Ghelae | There's internal ordering as a result of applied forces, e.g. electric and magnetic polarisation (and on a quantum scale this results in electromagnetic quasiparticles such as magnons). |
| 20:13.58 | Ghelae | And then there's large scale continuum and statistical mechanics (connected by, for example, phonons on a quantum scale). |
| 20:15.26 | Ghelae | Both the polarisation and strain-entropy scales are both in the realms of materials, however, and transformations of bound states, involving both chemical and intermolecular bonds, can result in both electromagnetic and mechanical phase transitions. |
| 20:15.53 | Wormymcworm | To the post before - So where the interactions of quasiparticles give rise to emergent properties? |
| 20:16.15 | Ghelae | I was thinking simply that quasiparticles themselves are an emergent property. |
| 20:16.39 | Wormymcworm | i was thinking recursively there :P |
| 20:17.34 | Ghelae | Then, finally, on the communal scale, we deal with systems that can react to external stimuli that are more complicated than force fields - e.g. life, even on the smallest scales, reacts to gradients of food chemicals. |
| 20:17.56 | Ghelae | And on a larger scale, it forms its own social systems that individual organisms react to. |
| 20:18.47 | Wormymcworm | Where would computational processes and adaptive systems be placed? |
| 20:19.19 | Ghelae | Presumably on the communal scale. |
| 20:19.44 | Ghelae | It's the computational abilities of organisms that put life there, not the simple fact that there are lots of chemical reactions going on inside them. |
| 20:20.07 | Wormymcworm | So now, the realm of abstracts? |
| 20:20.22 | Ghelae | Essentially, yes. |
| 20:21.50 | Wormymcworm | Can you think of any emergent phenomena that might be applied to quantum field theories or General Relativity? Other than condensed matter systems. |
| 20:22.03 | Ghelae | What I was talking about with the origin of magic is where these non-force-field external stimuli (from food gradients to social constructs) are taken to be things that are as intrinsic to the laws of nature as, say, electromagnetic fields, rather than merely complicated phenomena that organisms react to. |
| 20:22.10 | Wormymcworm | I did find this http://pirsa.org/11100056/ |
| 20:23.06 | Ghelae | Do you mean can I think of ways for QFTs/relativity to be emergent, or can I think of emergent phenomena that result from them? |
| 20:23.25 | Wormymcworm | It was thinking of the latter |
| 20:23.57 | Ghelae | Really, all of the emergent phenomena result from them. But if you mean, can I think of *more*... |
| 20:23.58 | Wormymcworm | Though I know some quantum gravity schemes suggest emergent spacetimes |
| 20:24.06 | Wormymcworm | yeah |
| 20:24.24 | Ghelae | Well, if I had thought of more already, I would have added them to the list. :P |
| 20:24.38 | Wormymcworm | Like that proposal that gravity is emergent or lorenzt symmetry is emergent |
| 20:24.52 | Wormymcworm | I've not looked into them yet so I can't say |
| 20:24.55 | Ghelae | As for making those seemingly-fundamental laws emergent, we can only speculate right now. |
| 20:25.46 | Wormymcworm | I'm not terribly convinced by any of them |
| 20:26.03 | Ghelae | In another couple of years, I might be better able to make my own judgement. |
| 20:26.40 | Wormymcworm | You might be able to submit a research paper even |
| 20:27.11 | Ghelae | Maybe wait until I'm doing a PhD for that. :P |
| 20:27.36 | Wormymcworm | At least there is the internet until then |
| 20:29.05 | Wormymcworm | itself, emergent of silicon gates and human communal stimuli |
| 20:29.31 | Wormymcworm | I hope the universe will continue to generate ever new novelty |
| 20:29.48 | Wormymcworm | It seems in most interpretations, it will |
| 20:29.56 | Ghelae | It still has plenty enough time to do so. |
| 20:30.55 | Wormymcworm | Or you could go radically Tiplerian and say life or whatever descends from it will engineer the universe or leave it or doing something emergently unpredictable for now |
| 20:31.31 | Wormymcworm | brb dinner |
| 20:43.55 | Wormymcworm | What do you think to all this Tybusen? |
| 21:01.54 | Ghel | I don't think he thinks anything at all about this. |
| 21:02.30 | Wormymcworm | Considering we began this discussion at least a year ago |
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| 21:02.48 | Wormymcworm | It might be quite hard to follow from the outside |
| 22:13.01 | Wormymcworm | I would feel slightly heretic for going with such a scenario |
| 22:13.34 | Wormymcworm | It implies the future of the universe is as intractable as the future of the biosphere. |
| 22:14.50 | Wormymcworm | But I wrote this as a speculation of what happens if life turns the galaxy into an ecosystem http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AWormulon/Scrapbook#Endosymbiosis |
| 22:16.44 | Ghel | It's fiction; that's the point. |
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