| 04:15.55 | *** join/##lds scarlett (~scarlett@CPE60e327b54c6f-CM185933f8f828.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 04:16.39 | scarlett | hello |
| 04:35.19 | klys | hi |
| 04:38.05 | scarlett | how're you |
| 05:04.23 | klys | doing well |
| 05:04.28 | klys | how are you? |
| 05:09.53 | scarlett | not bad |
| 05:10.00 | scarlett | are you an lds member? |
| 05:10.38 | klys | yes |
| 05:10.45 | klys | was at church today |
| 05:11.50 | klys | we talked about how Nephi was a really great person and the scripture where he admonished himself. |
| 05:12.45 | klys | and in the first meeting about forgiveness both of the speakers. |
| 05:13.58 | klys | priesthood meeting was about consultation and advice from some prophets |
| 05:14.17 | klys | and then we had a lunch |
| 05:14.38 | klys | I was on time it seems, had to walk there today. |
| 09:35.06 | *** join/##lds resplin (~richard@194.75.202.169) |
| 09:43.30 | *** join/##lds resplin (~richard@194.75.202.169) |
| 16:09.58 | scarlett | thats cool |
| 16:10.08 | scarlett | can i just walk into an LDS church? |
| 16:10.56 | scarlett | im afraid of checking out more of the LDS church because once they get your info they basically message you for life |
| 16:11.20 | scarlett | jehovah's witnesses, scientology have similiar practices this way |
| 16:27.01 | jsmith | scarlett: Yes, you can just walk in... |
| 16:28.14 | jsmith | scarlett: You're not required to sign up, give your email address, etc. |
| 16:30.04 | scarlett | ya.. but once i do... |
| 16:30.16 | scarlett | i just wish they wouldn't do that |
| 16:30.20 | scarlett | it's a deterrent |
| 16:30.42 | jsmith | scarlett: You can also file a "do not contact" letter with them, and they'll leave you alone |
| 16:30.47 | scarlett | i guess i can see why small groups have to rely more heavily on their members |
| 16:31.10 | scarlett | i guess i like the LDS church because they are more willing to talk though |
| 16:31.31 | scarlett | if you go to a catholic church these days they are closed 90% of the time |
| 16:31.35 | scarlett | open for like 45 min for mass |
| 16:31.44 | jsmith | scarlett: Yeah, they do rely more on their members -- and especially with the LDS church because there's no paid clergy |
| 16:32.03 | scarlett | can't blame them, they're largely empty |
| 16:32.13 | jsmith | scarlett: The best time to visit an LDS church is obviously on Sundays -- but they're often open on Tuesday or Wednesday nights for youth activities, etc. |
| 16:32.24 | scarlett | they dnt seem to really want to talk though |
| 16:32.31 | scarlett | i've talked to mormom missionaries |
| 16:32.40 | scarlett | once you really start to talk it just becomes like a script |
| 16:32.45 | scarlett | after a while |
| 16:32.57 | jsmith | It can be, especially with the missionaries |
| 16:33.03 | jsmith | Which is unfortunate :-( |
| 16:33.18 | scarlett | yeah, i wish i could talk to someone who had studied whatever tehy had for a long time |
| 16:33.34 | jsmith | But feel free to ask questions here -- I promise not to be a script :-p |
| 16:33.47 | scarlett | because you know an answer missionaries give is like "oh i'm sure there is an answer but idk what is yet, just read the book of mormon" |
| 16:34.20 | jsmith | Yeah, that's definitely one of the disadvantages of having 18 and 19-year-old missionaries... |
| 16:34.42 | scarlett | their arguments honestly just seem like preying on the weak |
| 16:34.52 | jsmith | ... sometimes they just don't have the experience to answer all the deep dark questions. |
| 16:34.59 | scarlett | if you are convinced from their arguments |
| 16:35.05 | scarlett | because they dont go very far, so what are they expecting |
| 16:35.15 | scarlett | i guess gullible people would accept it |
| 16:36.07 | jsmith | Anyhoo -- feel free to ask questions -- I can't guarantee I have all the answers, but I won't tell you just to read the Book of Mormon :-p |
| 16:36.10 | scarlett | ;) |
| 16:36.14 | scarlett | thanks |
| 16:36.50 | scarlett | trying to think of if i can come up with a question to ask |
| 16:37.38 | scarlett | i guess i wish i could find somebody or people who i can go to advice |
| 16:37.49 | scarlett | we're all looking for the right way to live life, right |
| 16:38.26 | scarlett | the thing is i feel i have to go to someone who knows more than me, more experience in what i want to do, etc and someone who i trust is smart, will give me good advice etf |
| 16:38.30 | scarlett | *etc |
| 16:38.44 | jsmith | Just by way of background, I was baptized into the LDS church around 32 years ago, served as a missionary in Paraguay, and have tried to live according to the tenets of the LDS faith since |
| 16:38.46 | scarlett | those people definitely aren't my parents, who i don't talk to anymore really |
| 16:38.58 | scarlett | oh cool |
| 16:39.57 | scarlett | i also don't like how if an LDS person would try to get you to convert they'd only show you the positive sides of the LDS church. you'd never be encouraged to look at the critisms of it and then to make an informed decision. |
| 16:40.27 | scarlett | any ideology which has views like that throws up warning sign in my head |
| 16:40.49 | scarlett | and some of the big questions i have are related to like... well i mean a huge problem we have in the world is inequality in wealth |
| 16:41.10 | scarlett | we have nice beautiful churches here (north america) and people starving in other countries, but we have enough wealth for the whole world easily |
| 16:41.42 | scarlett | definitely there are many people who feel captialism shapes how we view everything - our whole life is viewed throuhg this lens |
| 16:42.30 | scarlett | this constant and ever need to accumilate more and more wealth |
| 16:42.31 | scarlett | more power |
| 16:42.33 | scarlett | more control |
| 16:43.16 | scarlett | i mean fiscal policy is pretty important to society -- just as Jesus! |
| 16:43.19 | scarlett | *ask |
| 16:44.16 | jsmith | Sure... |
| 16:45.06 | jsmith | I tend to be pretty blunt -- I don't just show the positive sides of my faith -- I'm happy to admit and talk about the negative sides as well |
| 16:45.07 | scarlett | jesus ideas about the economy are most likely what got him killed |
| 16:45.30 | jsmith | As to your comments about wealth and inequality -- I'm probably a bit biased, because I've spent a lot of time in South America |
| 16:46.17 | jsmith | I've seen abject poverty that just makes your heart break |
| 16:46.28 | scarlett | my family is from a third world country actually |
| 16:46.51 | jsmith | And people so humble yet so gracious that they'd literally give you their last speck of food |
| 16:47.13 | scarlett | and also people who are assholes lol |
| 16:47.39 | jsmith | One of the things I really like about the LDS church is that we do try to make a concerted effort to take care of those who are less fortunate, through a number of different means |
| 16:47.47 | scarlett | now that you mention it, i actually sort of hate what missionaries did to my country |
| 16:48.19 | scarlett | missionary work was strongly tied to colonialism |
| 16:48.37 | jsmith | For example, we are encouraged to fast (from both food and water) for two consecutive meals on the first Sunday of every month, and donate the money that would have been spent on food (or more, if you can) to help the less fortunate |
| 16:48.42 | scarlett | also that attitude of "bringing our superior culture and religion to these savages" |
| 16:48.45 | scarlett | it's disgusting |
| 16:48.58 | jsmith | Aye.. I saw a lot of that in Latin America as well :-( |
| 16:48.58 | scarlett | in my mind i'm like we dont want your stupid culture or your religion |
| 16:49.06 | scarlett | and they brainwash our people |
| 16:49.08 | scarlett | they think that jesus is white |
| 16:49.10 | scarlett | and white is good |
| 16:49.16 | scarlett | but lol |
| 16:49.21 | scarlett | LDS ... |
| 16:49.22 | scarlett | and white |
| 16:49.22 | scarlett | haha |
| 16:49.26 | scarlett | maybe i shouldnt go there |
| 16:49.49 | jsmith | Well, believe it or not -- there are now more LDS members outside of the US than inside, I'm pretty sure |
| 16:50.03 | scarlett | i can believe it |
| 16:50.08 | scarlett | because no one wants to convert in the US |
| 16:50.21 | scarlett | its most easy to convert extremely poor people |
| 16:50.22 | scarlett | who have no hope |
| 16:50.26 | jsmith | So lots of different colors, backgrounds, etc. |
| 16:50.34 | jsmith | Actually, I think you'd be surprised. |
| 16:50.34 | scarlett | same technique other missionaries have been doing for thousands of years |
| 16:50.42 | scarlett | well historically thats the case |
| 16:50.49 | scarlett | with missionary work |
| 16:50.58 | jsmith | People join our church from all kinds of different backgrounds -- rich, poor, educated, uneducated |
| 16:51.11 | scarlett | it's extremely unlikely for a person to change their religion |
| 16:51.20 | scarlett | something like over 90% of people |
| 16:51.24 | scarlett | and majorty who switch are poor |
| 16:51.28 | scarlett | *majority |
| 16:51.42 | scarlett | for all religions not just the LDS church |
| 16:52.23 | scarlett | and yeah missionaries have robbed culture and brainwashed people |
| 16:52.38 | scarlett | not talking about LDS church but missionaries in general |
| 16:52.41 | jsmith | Do you mind if I ask what country your family is from? I'm just curious... |
| 16:52.45 | scarlett | i'd rather not say |
| 16:52.51 | jsmith | No worries |
| 16:53.04 | scarlett | and they've come to countries with a 'holier than thou' attitude literally |
| 16:53.11 | scarlett | teaching how our cultures are disgusting and wrong |
| 16:53.22 | scarlett | and how this is superior |
| 16:53.27 | jsmith | Yeah, and that's just wrong. |
| 16:53.53 | scarlett | that's how majority of people became christian in parent's homecountry |
| 16:53.59 | scarlett | that and rape, couquering etc |
| 16:54.09 | scarlett | and they are still glad that christianity came |
| 16:54.31 | jsmith | Sounds like so many of the countries in Latin America that I've visited... |
| 16:54.40 | scarlett | some people even buy into this notion that we were savages and thankfully we were civilized by these colonialists |
| 16:54.44 | scarlett | in fact many people think this way to a degreee |
| 16:54.57 | scarlett | and it's hearbreaking for me |
| 16:55.02 | scarlett | for these people to have such stocklom syndrome |
| 16:55.28 | scarlett | sorry to be negative! |
| 16:55.33 | jsmith | Just remind them where the biggest city in the world was before Columbus landed in the Western hemisphere :-p |
| 16:55.43 | jsmith | No, it's fine... |
| 16:56.03 | scarlett | but there is a lot of things on my mind that bothers me |
| 16:56.09 | scarlett | in fact you cant talk about it to most people because |
| 16:56.14 | scarlett | "you're being such a debbie downer" |
| 16:56.19 | scarlett | so you have to keep it hidden inide |
| 16:56.21 | scarlett | *inside |
| 16:56.22 | scarlett | quietly being sad |
| 16:56.42 | scarlett | at least i'm glad the LDS is open with talking to people |
| 16:56.57 | scarlett | but like if i talk to a missionary what i want to talk about and what they want to talk about is different |
| 16:57.05 | scarlett | tthey just want to say whatever to get me baptized |
| 16:57.07 | scarlett | and pay them 10% |
| 16:57.24 | scarlett | thats exactly how i feel unfortunately |
| 16:57.38 | scarlett | after talking to them for a while |
| 16:57.40 | jsmith | Well, hopefully at least you understand that you're not paying *them* |
| 16:57.46 | scarlett | well it's like a gang lol |
| 16:57.53 | scarlett | gotta fund the whole system |
| 16:58.09 | scarlett | and since you're a convert, when i looked at the whole story of the LDS church from both sides |
| 16:58.18 | scarlett | all the info, positives and critiques |
| 16:58.18 | jsmith | Sure, tithing goes to pay for church buildings, utilities, etc. |
| 16:58.35 | scarlett | and actually i've studied a lot about religion |
| 16:58.39 | jsmith | But missionaries, bishops, etc. are all volunteers -- they're not getting paid |
| 16:58.41 | scarlett | far more than every missionaryi talked to :( |
| 16:58.53 | scarlett | which was a bit surprising that none of them knew much about other religions |
| 16:58.56 | scarlett | other than christianity |
| 16:59.09 | jsmith | I like to think I've studied a lot about religion as well -- but I'm probably not the best judge of myself either :-p |
| 16:59.11 | scarlett | i was raised catholic btw |
| 16:59.23 | scarlett | but yeah so i mean they make these claims about mormonism |
| 16:59.37 | scarlett | and i'm like well this exact same thing is in this other religion so why is mormonism true and this false |
| 16:59.44 | scarlett | " oh i haven't heard of this " |
| 17:00.11 | scarlett | so you are convinced that everything else is wrong, but you aren't even familiar with one of the largest religions in the world (islam) |
| 17:00.11 | jsmith | For me -- faith is a very personal thing, and I can't expect anyone else to understand my reasons for believing... |
| 17:00.20 | scarlett | but your reasons could have flaws in them |
| 17:00.34 | jsmith | ... but I can say that I've been happier by following the LDS faith than I would have been without it |
| 17:00.34 | scarlett | flaws by your own judgement |
| 17:00.41 | scarlett | yeah but that doesnt mean it's truer |
| 17:00.43 | scarlett | *true |
| 17:00.47 | scarlett | i'm looking for the truth |
| 17:00.57 | scarlett | and in my mind the truth can definitely make me feel sadder |
| 17:01.06 | jsmith | I can't expect anyone else to understand the things that I believe to be personal revelation to me, from God |
| 17:01.10 | scarlett | my quest is honestly not for happiness |
| 17:01.13 | scarlett | it's for truth |
| 17:01.28 | jsmith | I'm not talking about temporary happiness |
| 17:01.29 | scarlett | i'd rather have the ugly truth than a beautiful lie |
| 17:01.45 | jsmith | I'm talking about long-term happiness/joy |
| 17:01.47 | scarlett | if i had the option of living my whole life in ignorant bliss |
| 17:01.49 | scarlett | i wouldn't want it |
| 17:02.18 | scarlett | you know, red pill blue pill |
| 17:02.21 | jsmith | So for me, I think the biggest thing to "truth" is looking for and receiving personal revelation from on high |
| 17:02.39 | scarlett | but you know so many other people feel they are receiving personal revelations |
| 17:02.50 | scarlett | this much we know |
| 17:02.54 | jsmith | I've prayed to God, felt like I've received the right answer for me, and I'm content with that |
| 17:03.04 | scarlett | yeah is it a good idea just to be content with that |
| 17:03.05 | jsmith | I can't expect you to take my answer for yourself |
| 17:03.08 | scarlett | that's a pretty low bar |
| 17:03.25 | jsmith | But beyond that -- I keep going back to a phrase in the New Testament... |
| 17:03.28 | scarlett | it's a bar i dont think anyone should take personally |
| 17:03.33 | jsmith | ... "By their fruits ye shall know them" |
| 17:03.35 | scarlett | lol |
| 17:03.42 | scarlett | ive herd that like 20 times |
| 17:04.03 | scarlett | from mormons :) |
| 17:04.07 | jsmith | And from what I've experienced in my life, I like the fruits that I see in the LDS faith |
| 17:04.12 | scarlett | and yeah again i countered there are loads of good muslims for examples |
| 17:04.16 | scarlett | with amazing fruits |
| 17:04.27 | scarlett | missionary is stumped at this point |
| 17:04.33 | scarlett | read more of the book of mormon |
| 17:04.47 | scarlett | i tell her yeah i have a fried who reads teh quran and feels just what you're saying |
| 17:04.57 | scarlett | and their works are really good, really kind generous person |
| 17:05.23 | scarlett | i asked have you read the Quran and asked God if it's true too? |
| 17:05.27 | scarlett | maybe you might get that feeling? |
| 17:05.32 | scarlett | "oh i've never read it" |
| 17:31.45 | *** part/##lds scarlett (~scarlett@CPE60e327b54c6f-CM185933f8f828.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |