| 01:03.34 | *** join/##kierra Gabe_G23_ (uid557@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjoliqyfthculcww) |
| 01:33.43 | gn00bie | ndim: so here is my theory, the default ESP calibration is very "safe" calibration, that really keeps wheel slip and side slip under check |
| 01:34.22 | gn00bie | The first level off calibration is quite a bit more permissive, and lets more wheel/tire slip and side slip happen |
| 01:36.15 | gn00bie | in the idealized tire behavior curve you find at http://www.racer.nl/reference/pacejka.htm (green line labeled Mz), the Mz decides what surface "feedback" you get |
| 01:36.56 | gn00bie | the default calibration is keeping you in the linear region of Mz (i.e. no difference in feedback on wet or snowy roads). The linear region is entirely a property of the tire and not the tire/road interface |
| 01:37.14 | gn00bie | this is basically the linear stiffness of the tire |
| 01:37.40 | gn00bie | the nonlinear region moves down when road is slippery but ESP keeps you away from nonlinearity |
| 01:38.16 | gn00bie | in the ESP off mode, you are at the peak of Mz and as Mz starts to reduce, you get "feedback" of the road surface condition |
| 01:39.08 | gn00bie | All this assumes that your complaints about steering feedback are at 7/10th to 10/10th lateral accelration, if not it is a bunch of hooey |
| 01:39.39 | gn00bie | but I have never had a 2WD car with ESP, the GTO is RWD with basic traction control (as James May pointed out) |
| 01:40.21 | gn00bie | the 4WD Jeep has ESP, but I have not seen any snow in it yet, so I guess I have to wait till it snows to find out |
| 01:42.39 | gn00bie | the graphs at the racer website are only for pure side slip and pure slip, the behavior of Mz gets a lot more complex with combined cornering, driving or braking torque, and steering input |
| 01:51.50 | gn00bie | If you are interested ndim, I have the codes written in matlab (should work with octave) to generate these charts. The Pacejka book has coefficients for a small tire, you can have some fun with these things ;) |
| 01:52.18 | gn00bie | I have done combined operation only for Fx, Fy though, over the xmas break I can look into extending the Mz as well |
| 01:52.39 | gn00bie | TheRedBaron: no stealing the ~shake! |
| 05:03.45 | TheRedBaron | gn00bie: is there ESP on the mark 4 jetta? |
| 05:23.13 | gn00bie | TheRedBaron: I am not a VW specialist TBH |
| 05:25.18 | gn00bie | TheRedBaron: ndim said Golf Mark IV, which was produced from 99 to 06, at least the later ones had to have ESP |
| 05:25.28 | TheRedBaron | I have an 02 jetta |
| 05:27.23 | TheRedBaron | the biggest thing I'm surprised by, is the 5th gear in it |
| 05:27.41 | TheRedBaron | 70-75mph ~ 3600rpm |
| 05:28.03 | TheRedBaron | gn00bie: You're a transmission engineer, doesn't that seem a wee bit high? |
| 05:28.22 | gn00bie | nope |
| 05:28.27 | gn00bie | VWs are all geared funny |
| 05:28.32 | TheRedBaron | why? |
| 05:28.39 | gn00bie | well, here is the thing |
| 05:28.46 | gn00bie | our customers are idiots |
| 05:28.57 | TheRedBaron | my honda @ 1.6L wasn't gear similarly |
| 05:28.59 | gn00bie | they think people with 5 speed sticks do not want to kick down to 4th to pass |
| 05:29.01 | TheRedBaron | and it was a 4 door |
| 05:29.07 | TheRedBaron | this is a 2.0L |
| 05:29.20 | TheRedBaron | gn00bie: no, your managers are idiots |
| 05:29.40 | gn00bie | TheRedBaron: believe me, my managers have told our customers (one of the big 3) many many times, increase the spread |
| 05:29.43 | TheRedBaron | in the US market, anyone with a quarter brain, driving a manual, knows to kick down to 4th |
| 05:29.50 | gn00bie | make the overdrive numerically lower |
| 05:30.00 | gn00bie | well, but I am told that people do not want to do it |
| 05:30.17 | gn00bie | every 5 speed MTX sold from 95 to 2005 is geared funny |
| 05:30.23 | TheRedBaron | the market must not be comprised of my demographic..... |
| 05:30.32 | gn00bie | even Audi A4 from that generation with the 1.8T, engine spins 3500 rpm in 5th |
| 05:30.35 | TheRedBaron | because I enjoyed kicking down to 4th for the passing boost |
| 05:30.46 | TheRedBaron | audi = vw |
| 05:31.00 | gn00bie | yeah, 3 different coworkers have the 1.8T Audi |
| 05:31.03 | TheRedBaron | the jetta did come with the 1.8T |
| 05:31.06 | gn00bie | 1 has the 2.7 non T |
| 05:31.27 | gn00bie | but really, you are not hurting the 2.0 at 3600 rpm, it is quite undersquare |
| 05:31.40 | TheRedBaron | it seems easy enough to mod the transmission, replacing 5th gear with a 6th. |
| 05:31.50 | TheRedBaron | gn00bie: thats the only thing I worry about |
| 05:32.08 | TheRedBaron | I know RPM (other then lugging) is one of the quickest way's to kill an engine |
| 05:32.30 | TheRedBaron | and considering my 1.6L honda turned 75mph at 3000rpm.... |
| 05:32.49 | gn00bie | you have the EA287? |
| 05:33.10 | gn00bie | oh it is quite undersquare if it is the EA287 |
| 05:33.39 | TheRedBaron | that's not an engine code I"m familiar with |
| 05:34.00 | gn00bie | it sounds like VW uses 3.65 inch bore and 3.2 inch stroke |
| 05:34.29 | gn00bie | the the only other reason I can think of for the 5th being such a short gear is the autobahn speed requirements |
| 05:34.42 | TheRedBaron | I"d disagree |
| 05:34.50 | gn00bie | they need this thing to be able to do 120 odd, the little engine needs all the hp it got to 120 mph |
| 05:34.59 | TheRedBaron | going 80 = 4000+ rpm |
| 05:35.10 | gn00bie | redline? |
| 05:35.17 | TheRedBaron | 6k |
| 05:35.27 | gn00bie | GTO bore is 4 inches, stroke 3.62 |
| 05:35.30 | TheRedBaron | but peak is near 4200-4500 |
| 05:35.37 | gn00bie | humm, so top speed is 120 mph |
| 05:35.43 | gn00bie | that sounds about right for the VW |
| 05:36.05 | gn00bie | well, 4000 rpm is where I would start worrying about an engine, 3600 rpm is kind of on the high side |
| 05:36.06 | TheRedBaron | the 2.0 is a nice motor, but the transmission is so short..... |
| 05:36.10 | TheRedBaron | 3rd is about the longest you get |
| 05:36.39 | gn00bie | you do what 37 mph tops in 1st at fuel cutoff? |
| 05:36.53 | gn00bie | or maybe even 30, they must have a deep first gear |
| 05:37.23 | gn00bie | sounds like they were just lazy in speccing out the transmission |
| 05:37.33 | TheRedBaron | I'll double check, but I doubt I can reach 30 in 1st, without redlining |
| 05:37.46 | gn00bie | so that is just a spread of 4:1 |
| 05:38.03 | gn00bie | out of 5 speeds, that sounds like they could have done better on the overdrive |
| 05:38.16 | TheRedBaron | its quick shifts at 4k in 1st and 2nd. 3rd winds nicely up, but its within the torque range, so its ok |
| 05:38.27 | gn00bie | 3rd goes to 80? |
| 05:38.37 | TheRedBaron | no |
| 05:38.47 | TheRedBaron | lord knows i've pegged it on accel ramps |
| 05:39.00 | TheRedBaron | once you reach 5k rpm, you're no longer in peak hp/tq |
| 05:39.14 | TheRedBaron | I only redline in 1st/2nd |
| 05:39.21 | TheRedBaron | because they are so short |
| 05:39.22 | gn00bie | yeah, but you still might have more hp/tq than you would if you upshifted |
| 05:39.44 | gn00bie | so it is geared pretty much like my corolla, except the corolla had a good overdrive |
| 05:39.45 | TheRedBaron | no |
| 05:39.51 | gn00bie | 80 in 5th was 3300 rpm |
| 05:39.54 | TheRedBaron | sorry |
| 05:40.12 | gn00bie | well, you typically want a 5:1 gear spread, we provide 4.8 to 1 with our 5 speeds |
| 05:40.12 | TheRedBaron | yes, It sounds like its geared like your corolla except overdrive |
| 05:40.24 | TheRedBaron | 4th and 5th are so close |
| 05:41.05 | TheRedBaron | just for a daily commuter who travels 10 miles of interstate, I'd like to do 75-80 without thinking "wow, these RPM's are excessive" |
| 05:41.25 | TheRedBaron | 3000rpm is almost near peak hp/tq on the 2.0. |
| 05:41.49 | TheRedBaron | and anyone who's driven a 4 cylinder would never be worried about 3k rpm |
| 05:42.05 | gn00bie | 4th is probably around 1:1, 5th sounds like they just put in a 0.85:1 overdrive |
| 05:42.28 | TheRedBaron | k |
| 05:42.57 | gn00bie | The gear ratios in the SRT-4 Neon that we did were 3.65, 2.05, 1.37, 0.95, 0.76 |
| 05:43.06 | TheRedBaron | Now to diverge, you mentioned the term "undersquare". |
| 05:43.32 | TheRedBaron | but when it comes to RPM's, I thought rod ratios was where it mattered |
| 05:43.35 | TheRedBaron | due to dwell |
| 05:44.04 | TheRedBaron | given the old adage: stroke for tq. bore for HP |
| 05:44.07 | gn00bie | undersquare is bore to stroke ratio |
| 05:44.25 | TheRedBaron | correct |
| 05:44.26 | gn00bie | 1:1 is square, oversquare revs, undersquare makes torque |
| 05:44.47 | gn00bie | oversquare engines are your F1 and Nascar engines |
| 05:45.05 | gn00bie | undersquare is pick up trucks and little cars |
| 05:45.19 | TheRedBaron | but in a high-revving engine.... |
| 05:45.38 | gn00bie | our last transmission is 3.77, 2.16, 1.41, 1.03, 0.72 |
| 05:47.35 | gn00bie | so you would get 2900 rpm at 80 with our tranny |
| 05:47.56 | gn00bie | well, these days VW gives you a 6 speed I think, so it takes care of your concern |
| 05:49.14 | gn00bie | well, to be honest I would not be crazy about 3600 rpm at 3.65 inch stroke, that is pretty high piston speeds |
| 05:49.38 | gn00bie | hopefully they have their piston ring design down |
| 05:49.38 | TheRedBaron | piston speeds I'm not worried about |
| 05:49.44 | TheRedBaron | dwell speeds I am |
| 05:50.07 | TheRedBaron | shorter rod ratios increase side thrust/load |
| 05:50.09 | gn00bie | which year is this VW? |
| 05:50.14 | TheRedBaron | 2002 |
| 05:50.27 | gn00bie | and I take it you plan on keeping it a while |
| 05:50.37 | TheRedBaron | just turned 120k miles |
| 05:51.01 | TheRedBaron | Guy ran a redlight and totalled my 97civic which had 198k miles ( I wanted to pass 200k) |
| 05:51.16 | TheRedBaron | so this car needs to take me to 200k :P |
| 05:51.44 | gn00bie | oh no, sorry to hear about your civic |
| 05:51.50 | gn00bie | you did not get much damage I hope |
| 05:52.04 | TheRedBaron | my body? no |
| 05:52.10 | gn00bie | good |
| 05:52.18 | gn00bie | everything else is just money or ego |
| 05:52.42 | TheRedBaron | but it was a 75+ year old gentleman driving a lincoln towncar |
| 05:53.00 | TheRedBaron | hit just in front of the front tire, so it tweaked the frame |
| 05:53.07 | gn00bie | umm, Panther platform car |
| 05:53.24 | gn00bie | humm, are you sure your useless brother was not involved? he totalled another good car previously? |
| 05:53.42 | TheRedBaron | that was the humor in the .5sec of the accident |
| 05:54.19 | TheRedBaron | I recognized it as being a lincoln towncar, and it being an intersection my brother frequented on his way to work |
| 05:54.40 | gn00bie | Since his first name starts with a T, I tried to come up with a TeeTotaller or something like that for him |
| 05:54.42 | TheRedBaron | First thought in my mind as the inevitable played out "Oh dear god, please don't be my brother, because I might beat him" |
| 05:54.45 | gn00bie | never got anywhere with it |
| 05:55.42 | gn00bie | humm, so in all seriousness 2 buddies of mine have the 3 speed auto corolla (01 and 99), their engines turn 4000 rpm at 80 mph |
| 05:55.54 | gn00bie | and since they don't even have a tach, they happily drive around at 80-85 |
| 05:56.00 | TheRedBaron | wow |
| 05:56.13 | TheRedBaron | spiking 4-5k rpm, no worries |
| 05:56.34 | TheRedBaron | churning that rpm for any sort of 15min commute (mine) = worrisome |
| 05:56.35 | gn00bie | 1.8L, 3.35 inch stroke |
| 05:56.49 | gn00bie | oh this one guy drove it from Syracuse to Folsom, CA |
| 05:56.51 | gn00bie | and back |
| 05:57.04 | gn00bie | he was down on oil a bit after he got back, but other than that, nothing really |
| 05:57.13 | gn00bie | he did 90 through Nebraska |
| 05:58.30 | gn00bie | my calcs say he had the engine at 4600 rpm or thereabouts for a whole tank of gas |
| 05:58.49 | gn00bie | his fuel economy dropped to 25 mpg though, so he stopped after 1 tank |
| 06:01.10 | gn00bie | but I guess if your car has made it to 120k with the low gearing, it can probably make 200k |
| 06:01.27 | TheRedBaron | and I only know about all this, because I plan on taking the 1.6L engine in my beetle, and making it a 2.1L |
| 06:02.07 | TheRedBaron | 3" stroke X 3.7" bore |
| 06:02.28 | TheRedBaron | with a 5.5" rod |
| 06:03.07 | TheRedBaron | its a bit of non standard build |
| 06:03.12 | gn00bie | well, may god grant you a diesel pick-up truck |
| 06:03.29 | gn00bie | a proper american one, so that you can be a proper redneck :P |
| 06:03.55 | TheRedBaron | well, with the heads+cam combo, I hope to redline at 6500 |
| 06:04.30 | TheRedBaron | gn00bie: I'd have to import or steal from mexico to get a 4cyl diesel pick-up :( |
| 06:05.18 | gn00bie | I would advise you to get the cummins |
| 06:05.30 | TheRedBaron | do tell |
| 06:05.33 | gn00bie | get an 03, with the NV5600 and a 271 |
| 06:05.43 | gn00bie | the 5.9 Cummins 6BT goes forever |
| 06:06.00 | gn00bie | and when people ask you what you got, you can say Cummins |
| 06:06.11 | TheRedBaron | that usually helps :) |
| 06:06.18 | gn00bie | helps with what? |
| 06:06.26 | TheRedBaron | well, with brag factor |
| 06:06.42 | TheRedBaron | most people here know that cummins = bulldozers |
| 06:07.01 | gn00bie | ford used to be navistar, but now they do their own thing |
| 06:07.05 | gn00bie | GM has the Duramax |
| 06:07.24 | gn00bie | working on 2014 MY updates, the torque figures on Ford/GM pickups are going to need 4 figures |
| 06:07.26 | TheRedBaron | tbh, my father owns the 7.3L power stroke |
| 06:07.36 | TheRedBaron | from ford |
| 06:08.05 | gn00bie | yourdad++ |
| 06:08.22 | TheRedBaron | from 97. Never had to touch the engine. Its mostly the sliding door on the 15 passenger van, that's given him trouble |
| 06:08.23 | gn00bie | if he has 4x4, he drives our transfer case |
| 06:08.34 | gn00bie | no, well 97 was not us |
| 06:08.41 | gn00bie | we started in 98 I think |
| 06:09.19 | TheRedBaron | the way kierra drives (lord bless that turbo+engine) You can feel the down-shift + turbo spool |
| 06:09.31 | TheRedBaron | and by bless, I mean preserve |
| 06:09.47 | gn00bie | well, kierra could probably out race Danica Patrick |
| 06:09.55 | gn00bie | kierra must be a retired F1 driver |
| 06:10.12 | TheRedBaron | well, someone should inform Kierra she's retired |
| 06:10.34 | gn00bie | ok my bad |
| 06:10.41 | gn00bie | kierra must be an F1 driver |
| 06:11.13 | TheRedBaron | She does her best to qualify |
| 06:11.15 | gn00bie | I found the dogfishhead 90 minute IPA on sale today, 9.99 for a 4 pack |
| 06:11.26 | gn00bie | well, I was going to say something about a pole position |
| 06:11.39 | gn00bie | but given my history with the ~shake and stuff, I better keep that to myself :P |
| 06:11.57 | TheRedBaron | the dogfishhead 90min IPA is exquisite. And at $10, quite the deal |
| 06:12.04 | TheRedBaron | ~gn00bie++ |
| 06:12.28 | gn00bie | it is quite possibly the best IPA I have ever had |
| 06:12.47 | TheRedBaron | all the complex of a malt, but the pure essence of an IPA |
| 06:13.25 | TheRedBaron | If you can find the Flying Dog brewery there, they too, have good IPA's |
| 06:13.32 | TheRedBaron | Snake Dog IPA. |
| 06:13.38 | TheRedBaron | Double Dog IPA (11%) |
| 06:13.48 | gn00bie | 11%, me likey |
| 06:13.53 | TheRedBaron | and the Raging Bitch (Belgian Style - american IPA) |
| 06:14.05 | gn00bie | I have had the flying dog IPA in Memphis (downtown, the flying saucer) |
| 06:14.14 | gn00bie | not sure exactly which one it was |
| 06:14.39 | gn00bie | oh well TheRedBaron, bed time |
| 06:14.42 | gn00bie | gn00bie needs his sleep |
| 06:14.52 | TheRedBaron | Was about to say the same |
| 06:15.13 | TheRedBaron | Take care gn00bie, and dont' take so long to log back in next time :P |
| 06:15.16 | gn00bie | otherwise I get cranky :P |
| 06:15.28 | gn00bie | oh I am here now, you guys will want to get rid of me :P |
| 06:15.30 | TheRedBaron | and you must visit soon |
| 06:15.40 | TheRedBaron | Val and I bought a house |
| 06:15.43 | gn00bie | I will try and see what is possible |
| 06:16.03 | gn00bie | congratulations! so new address for my next trip? |
| 06:16.15 | TheRedBaron | I tried to get orange to help me put a new roof on it 3 weeks ago |
| 06:16.21 | TheRedBaron | I shall PM |
| 06:16.42 | gn00bie | orange does not stop in Tally |
| 06:16.58 | TheRedBaron | I still keep my hopes up |
| 06:17.16 | gn00bie | orange is too posh for tally |
| 06:18.19 | TheRedBaron | Silly orange, he doesn't know what he's missing |
| 06:40.41 | *** join/##kierra sirquine (~quine@c-76-120-71-113.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 08:45.54 | *** join/##kierra I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 09:31.26 | *** join/##kierra I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 09:48.22 | *** join/##kierra I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 11:21.20 | kierra | omw, throw me under the bus why don't you!!!!! |
| 11:22.08 | kierra | I have you know I drive very well!.....but with vim and vigor. I think I may have been a race car driver in another life...idk |
| 11:22.51 | kierra | I like to keep traffic flowing. It annoys me to no end ppl who have no clue to traffic flow and how to keep it moving. |
| 13:03.01 | ndim | ~coffee kierra |
| 13:03.01 | purl | ACTION steals some of catay's special coffee and gives it to kierra on a silver platter. |
| 13:49.15 | Flash | 70% of all American drivers think they are above average |
| 13:49.30 | Flash | looks meaningfully at kierra |
| 13:52.35 | TheRedBaron | kierra: pushing the other cars isn't considered "establishing traffic flow" |
| 13:53.46 | TheRedBaron | puts Flash in a pan |
| 14:08.21 | orange | I'm the most polite driver around... I believe in traffic flow, and keep right except to pass (although I usually end up having to pass on the right because everyone else thinks the left lane is for cruising)... |
| 14:08.25 | orange | but don't tailgate me |
| 14:08.30 | orange | I don't get mad, I just get slow |
| 14:08.42 | orange | until the distance you are behind me is approximately 2 seconds :-) |
| 14:17.53 | kierra | oh, orange...tsk tsk |
| 14:18.09 | kierra | i stay in rt lane mostly and pass on left |
| 14:18.18 | kierra | and I am polite :) |
| 14:18.31 | orange | I pass on the left when possible, on the right if forced |
| 14:18.36 | kierra | I dont flip birds when ppl do stupid stuff |
| 14:18.43 | orange | I like to set my cruise and keep a nice steady speed |
| 14:18.48 | orange | usually about +7 |
| 14:18.58 | kierra | i love cruise control, +5 for me |
| 14:19.19 | orange | and I don't mind if someone cozies up coming up to a passing zone |
| 14:19.31 | orange | but if they tailgate me to try to 'push' me to go faster, it usually backfires on them |
| 14:19.37 | kierra | mhmm |
| 14:19.38 | orange | as I say, I don't get mad, I just make it safe |
| 14:19.52 | orange | as a bonus, if I'm going slower, they can pass more easily |
| 14:20.51 | orange | to be honest, most people figure it out pretty quickly... it's usually more carelessness than anything |
| 14:27.52 | TheRedBaron | I usually driver +5 or +10 on the interstate. Mostly to get away from all the other drivers, and when I find a gap inbetween traffic pockets, I go back to +5 |
| 14:27.57 | TheRedBaron | I don't like other cars |
| 14:28.25 | orange | agree with that 100% |
| 14:28.33 | orange | when I was younger and drove +15, that's why I got so many tickets |
| 14:28.40 | orange | because I wouldn't travel in packs |
| 14:48.46 | Constitution | wonders how many corners kierra can take at high speed and still say she "drives well" |
| 14:48.53 | gn00bie | orange: you are a fruit, not a pack animal |
| 14:51.43 | kierra | omw, never had an accident, always aware of who's around me |
| 14:51.50 | kierra | i drive very defensively |
| 14:52.02 | kierra | consti, are you admin on apoc? |
| 14:52.10 | Constitution | no |
| 14:52.29 | kierra | bummer, someone is there as kierrrra the geno baiter |
| 14:52.39 | Constitution | go shoot him with geno |
| 14:52.50 | kierra | easier said than done |
| 14:53.56 | Constitution | then you could join as kierrrra the geno baiter the geno baiter |
| 15:49.42 | gn00bie | ~shake |
| 15:49.42 | purl | ACTION shakes his booty all over town |
| 16:01.44 | ndim | ~orange++ |
| 16:04.46 | ndim | For the usual late night tailgaters, I like traffic circles. The tailgater behind me usually doesn't know a good line to take through traffic circles, so after the traffic circle suddenly they have a 200+ meter gap to catch up. |
| 16:05.53 | ndim | [ I drive the (legal limit +5) or (visibility limit-margin) or (physical limit-margin), whatever is the lowest. ] |
| 17:26.14 | *** join/##kierra Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 17:26.14 | *** mode/##kierra [+o Pimpinella] by ChanServ |
| 17:26.17 | kierra | Constitution: ping |
| 17:38.33 | kierra | ~I_Died_Once++ |
| 17:38.51 | *** topic/##kierra by kierra -> Welcome: || They have called for Tash. And Tash has come. C.S. Lewis|| channel logs: ibot.rikers.org || 20 days till Christmas!!!! |
| 17:38.54 | I_Died_Once | yay! |
| 17:39.00 | I_Died_Once | I've been plussed! |
| 17:39.05 | kierra | you are rather awesome! |
| 17:39.55 | I_Died_Once | A legend in my spare time |
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| 23:18.52 | *** join/##kierra allejo (~allejo@pool-108-0-61-94.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) |
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